Motoring Discussion > Photo ID Computing Issues
Thread Author: No FM2R Replies: 61

 Photo ID - No FM2R
In Chile if you are stopped driving a vehicle without your Picture ID, Vehicle documents (V5 & MOT equivalent) and your Driving License then your car will be impounded. It can cost £800 to get it back, even if all the documents are/were in order.

Anything wrong with the documents and you may not get it back at all.

If you have an injury accident and you do not have your documents or there is something wrong with them, then you will go to jail while it is all sorted out.

I wish the UK would follow suit.
 Photo ID - Zero
I have long said mandatory I'd cards should be required in the UK. Without one you get no benefits, no health care, no booze, no job, no accommodation, no driving rights.......

 Photo ID - No FM2R
>> Without one you get no benefits, no health care, no booze, no job, no accommodation, no driving rghts.......

.. can't get or use a credit card, can't conduct any transaction in a bank, cannot rent a car, cannot purchase event tickets, cannot register a car in your name, cannot enter or leave the country etc etc
 Photo ID - Kevin
Nah, go for the nuclear option.

No mobile phone contract without a biometric ID card.
 Photo ID - No FM2R
In Chile you can literally do nothing. Anything which you can conceivably need your name for, you will also need your ID card.

It is scannable and linked to the National Fingerprint database. *Everybody* has their fingerprints taken. And for any contractual transaction you will need to put your finger in a scanner as well as produce your ID.
 Photo ID - zippy
>> In Chile you can literally do nothing. Anything which you can conceivably need your name
>> for, you will also need your ID card.
>>
>> It is scannable and linked to the National Fingerprint database. *Everybody* has their fingerprints taken.
>> And for any contractual transaction you will need to put your finger in a scanner
>> as well as produce your ID.
>>

What happens if your ID is stolen? It's fairly easy to mis-recognise someone on an ID photo and fingerprints can be faked.

Do you really want the govt. tracking every transaction - knowing what you spend your money on and where - it could easily be used against you - e.g. Mr Smith has several contracts with train spotting clubs, are you sure he's fit to be a teacher or opposition politician?
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 17:40
 Photo ID - smokie
There is plenty of personal info about you about there already, I'm not sure a little more would make it any worse.

Tesco already know a lot about my spare time thanks to their loyalty card - the fact that I go shopping at odd daytime times means I don't work, they can see that I am buying for two and like a drink, even hazard a guess at which drink is preferred. The in-store cameras would be able to tell then what I am interested in, whether I shop alone or with partner/family. They would know if I was entertaining as I'd buy stuff I normally don't, and if it were a BBQ as I'd buy charcoal.

Individually they may not tell much of a story but if you aggregated my banks data on my spending patterns you would also know quite a bit about my lifestyle and preferred holiday destinations, and whether I look for cheap fuel and whether I withdraw lots of cash because I am paranoid about people knowing where I spend my money (or maybe because I have something to hide).

My phone knows where I am, where I've been, how long for, whether I walked there and what apps I looked at during the day and for how long. My TV company probably knows what TV I prefer to watch, certainly to record. My ISP has a good idea when I am at my computer (and, for many, what sites you visited), my energy company knows when I charge my car and when I have meals - even when I put the kettle on.

And of course social media (including here) is often quite an eye opener about other people =- their movements, habits, likes and dislikes.

There is already massive amounts of data to be had. Whether anybody stitches it together is another matter, but I think that's the kind of things the Facebook scandal was over (Cambridge Analytica??) and I bet they aren't the only ones.
 Photo ID - No FM2R

>> What happens if your ID is stolen? It's fairly easy to mis-recognise someone on an
>> ID photo and fingerprints can be faked.

IDs do get stolen, and it's a right pain. My ID gives my age age and sex, so that's a chunk of population who can't pretend to be me. They'd need to be blond, balding and unshaven. So that cuts it down more. And that's just for casual glances. If it *really* matters then they'll look closely of course, as with a passport.

And how on earth can it be less safe than no ID? Or do you think a utility bill with your address on it is the be all and end all of security?

As for faking finger prints, I suppose it must be possible, but easy? I don't think so. Given that you have to stick your finger int eh fingerprint reader in front of whatever official is requesting it. And again, still more secure than no fingerprint.

>> Do you really want the govt. tracking every transaction - knowing what you spend your
>> money on and where - it could easily be used against you

I couldn't give a stuff as long as they don't tell my wife how much gin I drink. Google, Amazon and Tesco know far more about my habits than the Government ever will or will ever care about.

Honestly though, and more seriously, it makes life *so* much simpler. Looking at my Chilean ID it carries my full name, nationality, sex, DOB, visa/residency validity period, signature, picture, finger print and my personal ID/Tax number in a form which *must* and will always be accepted as absolute proof.

Whilst the card carries only one fingerprint in fact all fingers are recorded in case of finger-unavailability.

It can be machine read as can my fingerprint. e.g. Access to my club, to the girls' school and to an ATM room out of hours are all fingerprint access controlled.

And, as I say, it's Tesco and Google you need to worry about, not the Government.


ID Theft just isn't as thing here. I guess it must happen somewhere/sometimes, but it really isn't a thing. If it isn't impossible it's really damned difficult.

They occasionally manage a single transaction. e.g. a single credit car purchase or similar. But the vendor always loses out because obviously he didn't check your ID card and the companies won't idemnify him but must give you your money back.
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> I have long said mandatory I'd cards should be required in the UK. Without one
>> you get no benefits, no health care, no booze, no job, no accommodation, no driving
>> rights.......

What exactly is the problem these draconian measures and the massive change in our national culture they would require is supposed to address?

Incidentally, people claiming Universal Credit have to produce ID. They can identify themselves on line during the claim process or at the subsequent Job Centre interview. No ID no benefit.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 07:46
 Photo ID - Zero

>> What exactly is the problem these draconian measures and the massive change in our national
>> culture they would require is supposed to address?

What exactly is draconian about having to produce entitlement to everything the country has to offer?

And what would it have addressed? it would have made the lies about Brexit easier to prove.
 Photo ID - Duncan
Responding to Zero's reply of 08:03

Was my earlier response considered to be offensive? Would it have been courteous to tell me that it was deleted?
 Photo ID - sooty123
The scissors have been out early this morning, snip snip snip.
 Photo ID - VxFan
>> The scissors have been out early this morning, snip snip snip.

Not me. Haven't been here since 02:26 this morning.
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> Responding to Zero's reply of 08:03
>>
>> Was my earlier response considered to be offensive? Would it have been courteous to tell
>> me that it was deleted?

Assume you mean the one about a Pavlovian response?

As the target my response was a mixture of smile and minor irritation. I certainly didn't 'frownie' it still less formally report it.
 Photo ID - Kevin
Cops in the UK can check most details online now including registered keeper, insurance and MOT status and claimed license details. I think the only thing they can't verify with any certainty is the real identity of whoever they have pulled over.

ID cards with biometric data face challenges in the UK.
 Photo ID - VxFan
>> I think the only thing they can't verify with any certainty is the real identity of whoever they have pulled over.

Some plod have had finger print scanners for over a year now. If you've been in trouble with the law before, and they've previously taken your prints, they can identify you at the roadside.

www.gov.uk/government/news/police-trial-new-home-office-mobile-fingerprint-technology
 Photo ID - Crankcase
On a rather less exciting note, we just booked tickets for Highgrove, Prince Charles' garden (not me, at £28 a pop to see two ponds and a rose bush or whatever, I'm sitting in the car park with my book).

After booking, the small print said you need photo ID with your ticket to get in, with a list of options. Mrs C has none of them.

In the end I emailed them and they said they would let her in with her expired passport and a bank card as ID, but they'd have to make special arrangements wth security to do so.

I thought that was quite good of them actually, but it could have been an expensive problem.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 07:13
 Photo ID - Duncan
>> I thought that was quite good of them actually, but it could have been an
>> expensive problem.
>>

The cheapest option would have been not to go.

But then, I am just grumpy.
 Photo ID - Bobby
I really don't have an issue with these ID demands - all the furore about CCTV etc - I am firmly in the camp of "if you're not doing anything wrong whats the problem?"

I was at a recent local meeting about crime and the police sergeant made no bones about it - yeah you have got guys on scramblers and quad bikes running riot but with our 3 coppers that we have on duty covering 50 square miles, it ain't ever going to go up the priority ladder.

So more and more of what I believe are crimes are no longer punished and this is reflected in sentencing if they do go to court - so housebreaking for me should be automatic jail but thats not happening etc etc.

We really could do with investing huge amounts of money in security - whether that be these ID measures, more police on the streets, harsher sentencing.

Having to carry all these ID information around imo would be a good thing - too many people are allowed to be anonymous and based on that they can do certain things that they know they will get away with.

Not sure if its still the case but used to be in USA you had to produce ID to buy alcohol - it wasn't like our rules where you produce it if the cashier thinks you are not old enough - it is just simply the law that you need ID.

Of course, is any ID, even biometric etc, safe from forgery ?
 Photo ID - sooty123
Not sure if its still the case but used to be in USA you had
>> to produce ID to buy alcohol - it wasn't like our rules where you produce
>> it if the cashier thinks you are not old enough - it is just simply
>> the law that you need ID.
>>

I always thought ours the better system as opposed to wasting time ID checking pensioners.
 Photo ID - tyrednemotional
>>
>> I always thought ours the better system as opposed to wasting time ID checking pensioners.
>>
.....quite a few of whom probably don't know who they are anyway..... ;-)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 09:23
 Photo ID - Bobby
>>I always thought ours the better system as opposed to wasting time ID checking pensioners.

I always thought that the actual rule was different. It was not like us whereby you had to prove you were old enough to purchase. The rule was that you must show ID when purchasing. Distinct difference.
 Photo ID - sooty123
I always thought that the actual rule was different. It was not like us whereby
>> you had to prove you were old enough to purchase. The rule was that you
>> must show ID when purchasing. Distinct difference.
>>

Same difference. I can't see it being a good use of time farting about IDing 80 year olds.
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> Same difference. I can't see it being a good use of time farting about IDing
>> 80 year olds.

My guess is they wouldn't be. Similarly with health care etc. The people ID'd would be those with non white skin and/or foreign sounding names. Same as under 'Right to Rent':

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/01/right-to-rent-scheme-ruled-incompatible-with-human-rights-law
 Photo ID - sooty123
>> >> Same difference. I can't see it being a good use of time farting about
>> IDing
>> >> 80 year olds.
>>
>> My guess is they wouldn't be. Similarly with health care etc. The people ID'd would
>> be those with non white skin and/or foreign sounding names. Same as under 'Right to
>> Rent':
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/01/right-to-rent-scheme-ruled-incompatible-with-human-rights-law
>>

I was talking about ID for alcohol in the US for pensioners.

A nationwide ID card is a non starter over here.
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> I was talking about ID for alcohol in the US for pensioners.

Although I quoted your post I wasn't responding directly still less having a 'nobble' at you. There's a wider point that the question of enforcing ID selectively goes beyond Granny and her bottle of milk stout.

>> A nationwide ID card is a non starter over here.

I agree. There are greater priorities for the considerable investment required and more effective means of dealing with whatever 'mischief' the cards are intended to address.
 Photo ID - Rudedog
Of course many issues around mandatory ID involve the cost to the individual, who pays for something you have to have? How about the people on low/no income? What age does it start coz there are plenty of under 16's that comit crime, would they have to carry one?
Would there be a fine for not carrying one?
 Photo ID - Shiny
Of course we have let in so many foreign criminals now, they openly operate a state within a state. They have oganised criminal corruption in every government department: issuing passports, drivers' licenses, polling cards, getting details for associates etc.... It's way to late for ID cards, this would be farmed out to CAPITA or some such and their staff would be operating a phantom operation. Editing SQL databases etc...
 Photo ID - Bobby
Crime happened long before "foreigners" arrived on our shores.

Maybe it is the "British" who facilitate these crimes of foreign interference?

Where will we start, maybe with our Eton educated PM ?
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> Of course we have let in so many foreign criminals now, they openly operate a
>> state within a state. They have oganised criminal corruption in every government department: issuing passports,
>> drivers' licenses, polling cards, getting details for associates etc


I'm sorry but I just don't believe the bolded bit. Do you have some evidence?
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> Not sure if its still the case but used to be in USA you had
>> to produce ID to buy alcohol - it wasn't like our rules where you produce
>> it if the cashier thinks you are not old enough - it is just simply
>> the law that you need ID.

I suspect that sort of thing is down to State rather than Federal law. I've bought both beer/wine and 'hard liquor' in two states, New York and Texas, without needing ID. Almost certainly paid by card though so effectively ID'd.

Also, where we have think 25 as a reminder for ID in Texas it was anyone who looked under 40. Quite miffed I wasn't asked.......
 Photo ID - smokie
Just wait till you don't get ID'd for the over 60s special menu at your local, or OAP day at teh hairdresser. That hurts! (So I'm told... :-) )
 Photo ID - zippy
>> I really don't have an issue with these ID demands - all the furore about
>> CCTV etc - I am firmly in the camp of "if you're not doing anything
>> wrong whats the problem?"

How far does this go? Are you happy with a Govt. CCTV camera in your lounge or bedroom to catch you plotting against them - after all if you have nothing to hide!

>> We really could do with investing huge amounts of money in security - whether that
>> be these ID measures, more police on the streets, harsher sentencing.

Criminals will always find ways around the system and it will be an expensive waste of money. You can open bank accounts in France and Germany with fake ID cards. Yes more police and more realistic sentencing but be careful - do we want to live in a police state - for our own security of course!?


>> Having to carry all these ID information around imo would be a good thing -
>> too many people are allowed to be anonymous and based on that they can do
>> certain things that they know they will get away with.
>>

Except you'll get officious jobsworths demanding them when they really not needed and there will be mission creep too - want to buy that ice cream on the beach - not without your ID card.

The UK has a way of taking thinks like this to the extreme - look at the rights given to local councils to snoop on you for minor supposed infringements.

>> Of course, is any ID, even biometric etc, safe from forgery ?

No, and its much more difficult to put things right when it is forged / stolen.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 17:56
 Photo ID - Netsur
Lots of countries manage just fine with ID cards. No issue over theft or stolen identity; it is just dealt with.

Israel is like Chile - need your ID card (or at least the number) for everything; buying fuel at a self service petrol station, buying something expensive on a credit card, opening a bank account. It is a credit card sized thing that you just whip out when required. No-one gives two hoots about carrying them. It provides security that if something is wrong you find out about it much quicker than you do without a card.
 Photo ID - zippy
>> Lots of countries manage just fine with ID cards. No issue over theft or stolen
>> identity; it is just dealt with.
>>
>> Israel is like Chile - need your ID card (or at least the number) for
>> everything; buying fuel at a self service petrol station, buying something expensive on a credit
>> card, opening a bank account. It is a credit card sized thing that you just
>> whip out when required. No-one gives two hoots about carrying them. It provides security that
>> if something is wrong you find out about it much quicker than you do without
>> a card.
>>

And if the Govt wants to make you a person non-gratis - they just revoke your card and you can't buy fuel or food.

It's not a good idea!
 Photo ID - sooty123
>> Lots of countries manage just fine with ID cards.

You could probably argue plenty of countries manage fine without them.
 Photo ID - zippy
Passes, security cards, etc.

When cash points were first introduced with pin numbers and magnetic stripes these were considered to be "foolproof" by many, including officialdom.

An elderly couple, now dead, disputed deductions from their accounts. It was never them. They never used the cashpoint, yet the high street bank insisted it was them. It even went to the ombudsman at the time every route to put this right was blocked.

In the end the case was taken up by a barrister on a pro-bono basis and it went to court.

It was discovered, that the bank's computer programmers had set up the system to issue only 3 pin numbers across all of their cards - e.g. either 1111, 2222 or 3333, meaning that any crook finding or copying a card had a near 100% chance of getting the pin number correct.

The details were kept quiet at the time.

Some of the story is here

www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/21/phantoms_and_rogues/

Security can always be broken.
 Photo ID - CGNorwich
If all criminals have to show their ID cards before committing crimes it should work out brilliantly.
 Photo ID - No FM2R
It works pretty damned well if they leave any fingerprints.
 Photo ID - Kevin
>It works pretty damned well if they leave any fingerprints.

Why don't we embrace the latest technology and require everyone to give a DNA sample and be chipped?

Much more accurate than fingerprints and nothing could possibly go wrong, could it?
 Photo ID - Duncan
>> It was discovered, that the bank's computer programmers had set up the system to issue
>> only 3 pin numbers across all of their cards - e.g. either 1111, 2222 or
>> 3333, meaning that any crook finding or copying a card had a near 100% chance
>> of getting the pin number correct.


Can we have a word after school about your mental arithmetic?
 Photo ID - No FM2R
Are you allowed three attempts to get the PIN right?
 Photo ID - zippy
>> Are you allowed three attempts to get the PIN right?
>>

Yes.

And the "near 100%", rather than exactly 100% is because criminals can make typos or the original user may have entered the pin incorrectly once or twice already.
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> I really don't have an issue with these ID demands - all the furore about
>> CCTV etc - I am firmly in the camp of "if you're not doing anything
>> wrong whats the problem?"

Here's why you might need to be more worried about CCTV:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/28/why-we-should-be-scared-by-intrusive-menace-of-facial-recognition
 Photo ID - Duncan
>> Here's why you might need to be more worried about CCTV:
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/28/why-we-should-be-scared-by-intrusive-menace-of-facial-recognition
>>


Nope. Still don't get it - the problem, that is.
 Photo ID - Crankcase
I think the only response to the inane "if you've nothing to hide" argument is "do you wear trousers?"
 Photo ID - Bromptonaut
>> Nope. Still don't get it - the problem, that is.

Another example....

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/12/regulator-looking-at-use-of-facial-recognition-at-kings-cross-site
 Photo ID - No FM2R
Still not seeing a problem.
 Photo ID - zippy
>> Still not seeing a problem.
>>

It just gives the police and other officials to be more officious.

There is no obligation to show your face in public unless a specific order is in place.

However, this bloke got fined for covering his face...

metro.co.uk/2019/05/16/moment-man-fined-90-hiding-face-police-facial-recognition-cameras-9571463/

(Actually it was for failing the attitude test but it seems like the police poked the right points.)

I wear balaclavas regularly when cycling on cold winter mornings. I don't want to be stopped by every police officer demanding I remove it so they can face ID me. I also don't want my whereabouts stored and reviewed by any Tom, Dick or Harry in the Police, Govt, or Civil Service or local councils which they can do under The Investigatory Powers Act.

A case may be that I have a legitimate dispute with a council or councilor. The councilor may use his powers to search face-recognition points of me visiting my bookies at all hours and suggest that I have a gambling problem when in fact it has nothing to do with the case - it's a tenuous example but you get the drift.
 Photo ID - Duncan

>> it's a tenuous example but you get the drift.
>>

Well, I don't get the drift.

I think you are seeing a problem which isn't there.
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Haywain
I suppose it fits within this topic and the info might be useful to someone .....

Last month, I received the brown envelope from the DVLA reminding me that in 3 months time, I would reach a significant birthday and would need to replace my old paper driving licence with a plastic (environmentally-unfriendly) one. My mate warned me - 'don't hang about' - apparently, he had waited several weeks before filling in the paper forms, and then having to resubmit after giving a dubious response to one question. His new licence appeared with only days to go before his old one expired.

But there is now an on-line facility to deal with this, provided that you have a recent passport; mine is 5 years old. I did the on-line application giving passport number etc, and the new driving licence arrived 4 days later. The new licence was embellished with the same photo and signature taken from my passport information. Amazing efficiency - but slightly scary.
Last edited by: Haywain on Sun 28 Jul 19 at 09:45
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Lygonos
Less than 30 years since the end of a regime in Chile that was torturing and killing its own dissident citizens.

This tech (distant facial recognition) helps bad governments more than it facilitates good governance.

Of course there's no prospect of any of the South American nations collapsing into military juntas or totalitarianism in the next couple of generations is there?
 Photo ID/Driving licence - tyrednemotional
>>
>> Of course there's no prospect of any of the South American nations collapsing into military
>> juntas or totalitarianism in the next couple of generations is there?
>>
......well, certainly less than the UK.......

;-)
 Photo ID/Driving licence - CGNorwich
But the Government would have to keep keep any data wouldnt they? . It’s not like, for example, they would be prepared sell access to the DVLA database to some unscrupulous parking companies. Can’t imagine that happening.
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Bromptonaut
The Kings Cross redevelopment, like many others, effectively transfers land that was previously public streets into the hands of private companies.

We now find, largely I suspect because they've been more open than other developers, that the owners are using facial recognition “in the interest of public safety and to ensure that everyone who visits has the best possible experience”.. So they decide for reasons xyz that you're persona non grata and facial recognition/tracking allows their security people to intercept you and escort you from their land. You have no idea why you are png and they will not explain in detail. OK, you might be able to use Information Law to make a subject access request but that's no help right now.

Furthermore they're sharing the information they won't disclose to you with other sites and other landlords and you find you're also being excluded from other streets which are now private land.
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Duncan
>> Furthermore they're sharing the information they won't disclose to you with other sites and other
>> landlords and you find you're also being excluded from other streets which are now private
>> land.

Nope.

You still haven't convinced me that I should be worried.
 Photo ID/Driving licence - sooty123
> Nope.
>>
>> You still haven't convinced me that I should be worried.
>>

What actions could they take that would worry you?
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Duncan
>> What actions could they take that would worry you?

If I were manhandled or assaulted.

I don't have a problem with being stopped and asked to prove who I am, or what I am doing there.
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Bromptonaut
>> You still haven't convinced me that I should be worried.

If I remember rightly you have some sort of voluntary or professional role that sees you visiting RUFC grounds. Suppose they used facial recognition and your physog was taken for that of somebody they don't want darkening their doors.......
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Robin O'Reliant
We are sleepwalking towards the society predicted by George Orwell.
 Photo ID/Driving licence - Duncan
>> >> You still haven't convinced me that I should be worried.
>>
>> If I remember rightly you have some sort of voluntary or professional role that sees
>> you visiting RUFC grounds. Suppose they used facial recognition and your physog was taken for
>> that of somebody they don't want darkening their doors.......

Wouldn't take long for me to prove who I was. Checks for staff entering grounds are the norm, I was going to say regular, but it is more organised than that.

Security is always being improved and increased.
 Photo ID/Driving licence - No FM2R
>>Suppose they used facial recognition and your physog was taken
>> for that of somebody they don't want darkening their doors.......


Well, if I could present my picture ID then I could easily prove who I was.

Bit more difficult with a recent utility bill though.
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