Motoring Discussion > Caravaning Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Zero Replies: 46

 Caravaning - Zero
i am seriously pondering buying a caravan. Its likely to be a Swift Basecamp or a Freedom Jetstream Twin Sport, both suit my weekend only, need a toilet, sleep, drink cold beer, warm up a charlie brigham curry, requirement.

To that end we are off to the motorhome and caravan show at the NEC in Oct, where final choice will be made.

So opening this thread as a place to throw my queries into the open.

My first is,

There appears to be two mainstream caravan clubs. Who would have known there was a schism. Which one is the best


www.caravanclub.co.uk/

www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/

Which one would meet my requirements best
 Caravaning - smokie
Funny how people change.. .:-)

Going back a few years to when I had one, we joined the Caravan Club. I think they did cheap insurance, though like many affiliation type deals it wasn't so cheap anyway. We never went to any of their sites as at the time our kids were kids and the impression I had of the CC sites was that they were a bit spartan and full of old people. I'm sure that's changed though.

TBH I'm not really sure of the value of joining either if you are just doing what I think you will be. I'm assuming you want it mainly for dog shows which I would imagine often are in rural places and probably have their own camp fields.

Anyway I'm sure someone with more recent/relevant experience wil be along soon!
 Caravaning - zippy
>>i am seriously pondering buying a caravan

Nooooooooooooooo!

Static caravans or do the decent thing and spend the same money on half decent B&Bs.

 Caravaning - R.P.
We joined the Caravan (and Motorhome) Club - they were useful for us to access their main sites once in a while and more generally their Certified Locations (private sites for 5 or fewer vans) - they were recommended to us by a friend (who knows MH stuff) as the best of the two. They were ok as "clubs" go - I hated the bigger sites and tended only to use them for one night stops once in blue moon in between the CLs for a proper shower and laundry facilities. Access to sites is the main requirement of being in a club and the CC had plenty.

Some of the larger sites were very well kept but were also very regimented, but I guess some people like them
Last edited by: R.P. on Wed 7 Aug 19 at 07:59
 Caravaning - Manatee
Really it's whichever has the location(s) you want, assuming you want to use the sites. We were in both for years. Overall we have used more Caravan [& Motorhome] Club ones - they are more likely to have heated 'facilities' and tend to have more, and larger, hard standing pitches. But our favourite site probably remains Rosemarkie, which is run by the other lot.

If you want to rely solely on your own toilet/washing facilities you can make use of many cheaper affiliated 'farm' sites, both have a compendious selection.

The usual thing with club sites in the C&MC is to check in, pay, find your pitch then go back and tell them where you are. The C&CC will often just allocate a pitch but in practice are usually helpful if you request a particular area or want to change.

Some people find the clubs a bit rule bound but, frankly, they tend to be the ones who need telling not to play football around others' cars and caravans, to empty their dogs on grass pitches, or carouse until 3am. You are more likely to have lots of children on C&CC sites during the school holidays but it will happen with both on the popular seaside sites.

I haven't checked the prices recently (haven't caravanned since I was ill in 2018) but you'll probably get your annual membership costs back after 6 or 7 nights with either.
 Caravaning - Bobby
This is interesting Zero - genuinely would appreciate hearing the thought process around this. I know for you its probably not a financial decision taken to save money but intrigued to know the thought process?

When I grew up we had a caravan for years - many a family touring holiday in the days when we pulled a big Astral Ranger that slept 7, on the back of a Cortina estate that had 2 kids in the boot!

Stabiliser was a great invention but I daren't even contemplate looking at those weight ratios now!

Are you thinking of buying new or used - think they are like cars that depreciate quite heavily, but then they maybe level off a bit.

What were the pros/cons of this against a camper van - assume a decent specced camper van is much dearer than caravan and you need to commute between site and dog show?

My wife has often talked about getting a tourer once we were a bit older and had another dog... well definitely getting older and the pup at my ankles is definitely a dog!
 Caravaning - Bromptonaut
Pretty much endorse what's said above.

We're in both clubs but tend to mostly use C&MH sites. Can see what RP means about regimentation - there's a correct way to park your 'van reversed against a pitch marker with car to left as you face it and awning on right. That works fine for UK caravans but can be an issue if you've got a Hobby or one of the other mainland Europe brands where door is on other side. We like the main sites and have never felt constrained by the regs.

Both clubs have their share of people who can't follow simple rules and others who want every regulation followed to last dotted i and crossed t. If you look on their forums or Facebook groups there are pages of discussion about 'unfairness' where people arrive early or leave late. Even on the club sites provision of toilets is not universal. A lot of people are OK using the caravan loo for a wee in the night but are squeamish about using it for a poo.

I think if you're using the caravan mostly for dog events or following trains then the best club will be the one which has sites near venues you want to visit. CL's are a good tip but they vary from a field with a tap and a loo to places that are nearly as well equipped as the main sites. Not all CL's have electric hookups and of those that do not all provide the full 16amps.
 Caravaning - Manatee
>>there's a correct way to park your 'van reversed against a
>> pitch marker with car to left as you face it and awning on right. That
>> works fine for UK caravans but can be an issue if you've got a Hobby
>> or one of the other mainland Europe brands where door is on other side.

We have an Eriba 540 which has the door on the offside. We just put it on the pitch nose first - easy because it has a mover.

We preferred to place it across the back of the pitch with the 'dome' awning out to the front - easier to fit the car on the pitch as with the awning we are wider than we are long. But a few years ago the CC (as it was then) tightened its rules following a fire on a site, and regardless of spacing most site wardens will not now allow this.

To Bobby's point about depreciation - we bought our 2004 Eriba privately in 2006 for £10,800. It now needs a bit of a refurb, nothing major, but 540s of that age are still being offered at £10,000+.

Incidentally Zero, Eribas tow very well. They are narrow (2.0-2.1 metres), relatively low (they have a poptop) and a bit more aerodynamic that traditional 'vans. But they are expensive new.

www.automotiveleisure.co.uk/eriba-for-sale/
 Caravaning - Zero
>> This is interesting Zero - genuinely would appreciate hearing the thought process around this. I
>> know for you its probably not a financial decision taken to save money but intrigued
>> to know the thought process?

Thought processes? There has been many, lets look at the "need" first.

I do dog shows, they are mostly in public parks, football grounds, rugby clubs, cricket grounds, and country show grounds. Some of them are one day, some of them are two day, the odd one or two three day. They are all over the country, and they nearly all offer camping on the ground and loos, often only portaloos tho. There may be a club house, there may be a bar, or often only just a burger van.

I currently try and attend those within a two hour drive (anything more and the dog is too frazzed to compete), and generally I'll only compete one day a weekend, two days on the trot is unfair on the hound.. Now I have qualified to higher classes, a show will take all day, arriving at 08:30 and leaving at 16:30. In between is a lot of hanging about, and you need a base to chill and shelter.
This has been provided to date in the form of an event shelter type arrangement (currently a Khyam screendome) pitched on the back of the Kubelwagen (G31 to you - oh BTW I bought it with factory fit electric tow bar))

This year its changing. I am qualified as a judge, but I still want to work the dog, rules say I cant work a dog and judge on the same day. So I'll work one day of a weekend, and judge the other.
This makes longer journeys with overnight stays feasible, so for example this year I am off to Norwich on the Friday, work the dog Saturday, Judge Sunday, travel home (3 hours) Sunday night.
Overnights is a nearby Travellodge.

BIG PROBLEM, What do I do with the dog while I am judging all day. Car too hot, cant be near the working rings, Solution by others? Caravan or Motorhome with a temp garden round it (in the form of plastic mesh fencing or windbreak) (the pro handleers have 40 foot campers with purpose built airconned kennels incorporated)

So Motorhome or Caravan it is. It needs to be based at home, a storage site kills its practicality, I have 6.5 metres in length to stick it on.

Motorhomes are too restricted once you are away in it, and generally too big for my 6.5 metres.

So caravan it is, only need two berth as its for a three day stay with dog and me.

OOpps Mrs Z (who has caravaning friends) is now excited about the prospect, so It will get w/e use for us and dog, and now it needs a loo to please her.

Sooo caravan research has limited it to a few types, and currently the Swift Basecamp ticks every box, Trouble its expensive, and being new few second hand examples. The Freedom Jet stream is another, but I think its tow hitch may be too low for my fixed height swan neck towbar.

 Caravaning - Bromptonaut
Zeddo,

HAve you looked at the Elddis Xplore 304?

www.elddis.co.uk/xplore/xplore-304
 Caravaning - Zero
>> Zeddo,
>>
>> HAve you looked at the Elddis Xplore 304?
>>
>> www.elddis.co.uk/xplore/xplore-304

I'll add it to the look see list at the show.
 Caravaning - Bobby
Cheers Zero for the response - by the sound of it most of the sites you will be staying at will be the doggy venues anyway so not actual camp sites? Sort of doggy traveller sites??? :)

How does the security work for the dogs that are not being shown that day - there is a huge business in stealing dogs just now - sends shudders up my spine thinking of these mutts in their own wee gated areas next to the caravans?

Re your shortlist of caravans, is this based on new models only? There must be hundreds of versions of two berth caravans with a loo? Will you be getting an awning as well?
 Caravaning - Zero
>> Cheers Zero for the response - by the sound of it most of the sites
>> you will be staying at will be the doggy venues anyway so not actual camp
>> sites? Sort of doggy traveller sites??? :)

Yes exactly

>> How does the security work for the dogs that are not being shown that day
>> - there is a huge business in stealing dogs just now - sends shudders up
>> my spine thinking of these mutts in their own wee gated areas next to the
>> caravans?

Everyone knows dog and owners. Its all rather incestuous. Get the wrong dog with the wrong handler and a hue and cry would start. Oh we dont "show" dogs, that's for weird breed people,
we "handle and work" dogs.

>> Re your shortlist of caravans, is this based on new models only? There must be
>> hundreds of versions of two berth caravans with a loo? Will you be getting an
>> awning as well?

No new its not a requirement, second hand starting at less than 2 grand is possible.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 13 Aug 19 at 20:47
 Caravaning - Bobby
>> No new its not a requirement, second hand starting at less than 2 grand is possible

ok not handy for you, but someone on my local FB pages selling a 2 berth Swift with toilet and shower for 2 grand. Looks very neat actually.
 Caravaning - Zero
Autotrader (caravans) is full of possibilities. And a gazziliion makes and models of which I know nothing. For example is length quoted in auto trader adds, the length from rear to tow hitch or just length of body. Is shipping length the space you need to store it on?
 Caravanning - Duncan
I was a member of the Caravan Club yonks ago. Found them rather rule-bound.
 Caravanning - Manatee
>> I was a member of the Caravan Club yonks ago. Found them rather rule-bound.


Was that when you came back at midnight, carousing from Wetherspoon's?
 Caravanning - Duncan
>> >> I was a member of the Caravan Club yonks ago. Found them rather rule-bound.
>>
>>
>> Was that when you came back at midnight, carousing from Wetherspoon's?
>>

Who told you about that?
 Caravaning - Robbie34
Age and infirmity have caused me to give up caravanning. Until recently I was in both clubs. However, the C&CC insurance was much cheaper and gave excellent service. Their camp sites were much cheaper than C&MC and they give a discount for us wrinklies.

For foreign travel C&MC REd Pennant is hard to beat although a tad expensive now.
 Caravanning - Dulwich Estate II
.... mmmm....

"Age and infirmity have caused me to give up caravanning"

..and I always thought that Age and infirmity have caused people to start up caravanning.
 Caravanning - tyrednemotional
>>
>> ..and I always thought that Age and infirmity have caused people to start up caravanning.
>>

....no, you're mistaking that with carping.....

;-)
 Caravaning - tyrednemotional
...you don't need to join a club, and it is only worth doing so if you are going to avail yourself of the various facilities they offer.

The two main clubs (and I am a member of both, for different reasons) vary somewhat in character, but essentially offer much the same to their members, viz:

- Access to a number of geographically spread club-owned sites, usually (but not always) with reasonably maintained facilities, the Caravan (and Motorhome) Club having slightly more sites, and generally slightly better facilities than does the Camping and Caravanning Club. The C&MC also has more sites open in the off-season.

- Access to a wide network of privately-owned, but members-only "5-van" sites, dubbed CLs by the C&MC, and CSs by the C&CC. (The "5-van" is in quotes as this bestows planning law exemptions in conjunction with the clubs, but is sometimes exceeded). Again, the C&MC has a wider network of these locations, and they run from one extreme to the other as regards quality and facilities (all will/should have fresh water and black waste disposal).

- Access to mainly weekend rallies (C&MC) or DA (C&CC) meets across the country in other locations than above. If the location is where you want, then you can join the meet, and not join in if you get my meaning. My experience is that the C&CC DA meets are the easiest to use.

- A range of member "benefits"; some you might use, many are overplayed. We find we can often save a few pounds on ferry crossings if booked through one of the clubs. Insurance, on the other hand, we can find much better elsewhere.

- The C&CC run "Temporary Holiday Sites" UK-wide across an extended season. The nature of these varies muchly, but they can be a cheap pitch in less obvious areas if the location suits.

- The C&CC offers age-discounts off the main season that can drop the nightly cost on their own sites.

The membership cost of either club is not great (compared to the other costs of the pastime) but if you can manage without using their sites or CLs/CSs (other private sites abound) then the value is debatable (particularly if you already have the facility to pitch at most/all locations you use).

Looking at your use, (and unless a perusal of the other club's locations clearly matches your travels better - the respective websites should reveal) I would probably recommend joining the C&MC if it is to be only one. Once you're used to it and have understood your patterns of use, then you can either join the other as well, to widen the network, or switch to give variety. (Perversely, my own preference, balancing all things, and considering history is the C&CC).

 Caravaning - bathtub tom
When I had a caravan, we were invited to weekend camps. Quickly learned these were 'car keys in a pot' job frequented mainly by folk with pampas grass in their gardens. Do they still do that?
 Caravaning - tyrednemotional
...only reason Z is going for a caravan......
 Caravaning - Manatee
>> When I had a caravan, we were invited to weekend camps. Quickly learned these were
>> 'car keys in a pot' job frequented mainly by folk with pampas grass in their
>> gardens. Do they still do that?

Nothing wrong with people wanting to drive each other's cars!
 Caravaning - legacylad
But not green cars shirley
 Caravaning - Zero
>> When I had a caravan, we were invited to weekend camps. Quickly learned these were
>> 'car keys in a pot' job frequented mainly by folk with pampas grass in their
>> gardens. Do they still do that?

Wow, I didnt know that was part of the scene, not sure I want to swap my dog for another......
 Caravaning - Kevin
OMG! Not another damn snail dragging it's shell up and down the highways holding everyone up.
 Caravaning - Zero
>> OMG! Not another damn snail dragging it's shell up and down the highways holding everyone
>> up.

Annoyingly its limited to 60 mph by law, apparently the G31 with self levelling adaptive suspension x-drive and stability control will haul anything up to 85% of its weight at well over three figures and be very stable about it. It was described as a "caravan bully"
 Caravaning - Bromptonaut
>> Annoyingly its limited to 60 mph by law,

You might want to see how the outfit behaves passing an artic at 60+ before being too cocky about stability control etc...

Berlingo + Explore 304 gives us a gross train weight just shy of 3,500kg which means that in France I can tow at up to 130kph (110 par temps de pluie). I'm not keen to exceed even 110 on dry straight autoroute because of wind/lorry turbulence.

The Nederlanders seem braver but I've seen a few smashed up Dutch 'vans where the tail has ended up wagging the dog.....

Fuel consumption towing also goes mad (<25mpg) towing at 110kph whereas at 90kph it's in mid thirties.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 7 Aug 19 at 21:15
 Caravaning - tyrednemotional
...TBH, I'm surprised you've written off the option of a Panel Van Conversion motorhome/campervan.

I get some of the rationale (the fact that you've got a towbar, the potential for a newish caravan to be less of a capital outlay, etc.) but not much of the rest.

I suppose it might be a bit of reverse vicariousness, projecting my choices onto others, but I would have thought that, all factors considered, a 6m or even better a 6.36m Ducato van conversion would be rather more practical for both dog shows and in particular chasing trains.

Much easier to pitch up and break camp than a caravan, and (IMO) more pleasant (and certainly better for access) than towing, even behind a G31. Easier to park than the combination as well.

Certainly some people feel having two separate units makes local travel rather more easy, but if we can't use bikes, walk or use public transport, then it is only a couple minutes (literally) to be ready to drive off. (and our record for pitching up and being out and off down the pub is well under 30 seconds).

BUT, I thought the idea was to use the purchase as a base, on the location you were attending, which seems to negate any/most issues of being able to drive away in the car (since you are already where you want/need to be).

Considerably more payload in a campervan than a (small) caravan, giving quite a bit more scope (for carrying "stuff", and for fettling the van for longer, off-grid stays - solar panels, extra batteries, etc).

AND, in response to the last post, almost every such conversion will be subject to standard car speed limits (whereas the base, white-van man vehicle from which it is converted will be restricted).

In general, insurance for a campervan will be less than a caravan (surprisingly), though paying road tax offsets that.

 Caravaning - Zero
>> .
>> Much easier to pitch up and break camp than a caravan, and (IMO) more pleasant
>> (and certainly better for access) than towing, even behind a G31. Easier to park than
>> the combination as well.

I cant drive to Devon, pitch a home at a dog show, do my dogging, and give the Kubelwagen to Mrs Z to visit her Friends if all we have is a Motorhome.

Its just not flexible enough. Its been considered, it does much of what I need, and is the choice of many at shows, but after weighing it up, the 'van is the better choice.

Oh and a Van and a motorhome is too big and too slow to chase trains. Thats a Travellodge jobbie and always will be
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 7 Aug 19 at 21:27
 Caravaning - tyrednemotional
>>
>> I cant drive to Devon, pitch a home at a dog show, do my dogging,
>> and give the Kubelwagen to Mrs Z to visit her Friends if all we have
>> is a Motorhome.
>>
I was rather assuming the G31, and a Ducato conversion (in preference to towing a 'shed')

I have to say that I've never savoured the idea of towing a caravan, but if I had to, it would be one of the small Eribas, already mentioned (or a full-fat, American Airstream, of course).
 Caravaning - No FM2R
I want one of these.

decoratio.co/camping-equipment-and-vehicles-30/
 Caravaning - Zero
>> I want one of these.
>>
>> decoratio.co/camping-equipment-and-vehicles-30/

Do you think that will squeeze onto my 6 metres of frontage?
 Caravaning - No FM2R
Why would I buy one for your frontage? You'd probably charge me rent.
 Caravaning - tyrednemotional
...he thinks you'll want to park it there when you're in town, just to annoy him...

;-)
 Caravaning - Runfer D'Hills
I can't read or hear the word "frontage" now without thinking of Mrs Frontage from Terry Wogan's Janet and John stories.

As you were chaps, as you were.
 Caravaning - legacylad
I’ve never had a caravan, never been tempted, but a year ago my bruv bought one to test the water, so to speak. It was an old thing, two berth, no idea of make and model, and he paid £1700. The roof doesn’t leak, apparently it’s immaculate, and both he and his missus often go away for trips between 4 and 7 days duration. I’ve seen photos ( they are in the Peak District at the mo) with awning attached. I assume it doesn’t have a toilet, and they stay at these sites with only a few pitches, which looks like a field to me with few if any facilities.
They weren’t sure if caravanning was for them so spending sub £2k seemed like an astute move. They pay to have it stored somewhere and seem to enjoy the quiet life away from the crowds.
 Caravaning - BiggerBadderDave
I've fancied one for a while. But a small one, just a place to eat and sleep. I like those Tabs. Small and stylish and fit in garages and small spaces.
 Caravaning - BiggerBadderDave
Spelt T@b, it seems.

www.tabme.de/en/
 Caravaning - BiggerBadderDave
Did I say eat and sleep? I meant eat, sleep and crap.

Has to be the 400, it has a bog.

Just in case.
 Caravaning - No FM2R
>>AND, in response to the last post, almost every such conversion will be subject to standard car speed limits (whereas the base, white-van man vehicle from which it is converted will be restricted).

I was party to a conversation recently which I regret I didn't pay particular attention to. But as I understand it there are moves afoot;

It is going to become much more difficult to have a conversion registered as such and I think they were going to come up with some halfway house.

There is concern that the speed limit should apply to the base vehicle not how it is used.

Also they were saying that the description should match it's appearance not it's usage; i.e. if it looks like a van, then it's a van. Never mind how you are using it.

There may well have been more but that's all I recall.

I wish I'd paid more attention now.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 8 Aug 19 at 16:02
 Caravaning - Dave_
Here's my tuppence-worth.

I had two caravans for about 18 months each; they're a lot of hassle and expense to store, maintain, insure and keep secure, prepare, use and tidy up after use. The caravan dealers will sell you a "bare" 'van without a battery, gas bottle, water carrier etc meaning you end up spending another £500 to kit it out before you can use it.

That said Z, for the use to which you want to put it I can't see a problem. We stayed next to a Basecamp in Oban a couple of years back, the ceiling was a bit low for me (I'm 6ft4) compared to other caravans. It had everything you would need though, and I can see the thinking behind buying one.

My Swift caravan was well built but almost all the appliances were replaced under warranty in the first few months; the oven, fridge, cassette toilet and main electric box were all shoddily put together and failed in one way or another after a few days' use.

My Bailey caravan was the opposite; it had very shonky fit and finish but all the bought-in parts were top notch. I understand Bailey are the only UK manufacturer who build the insides first and then pop the body on at the end.

We joined both main clubs; we stayed at both club and non-club sites and had varied experiences all round. At least twice we arrived at seemingly legitimate non-club sites to find them populated by rough-and-ready families with tipper vans and feral children. Other non-club sites though were among the best places we stayed at; I would very much go on personal recommendation as to the sites to use.

The club sites were all similar, very regimented with clean facilities but largely stuck in the 1960s as far as communication and wifi were involved.

After 3 years' caravanning we decided it wasn't for us and have gone back to weekend b&bs, hotels etc as the overall costs aren't that much different and the preparation time for a family break is MUCH shorter.
 Caravaning - Bromptonaut
>> Here's my tuppence-worth.

Intersting how we can have different perspectives on what are in fact pretty similar experiences.

I can see what you mean about 'bare' caravans but you can always try and negotiate some of those things into the deal. Gas type, brand and cylinder size etc are user preferences as is leisure battery weight (v) capacity; you'd not want it decided at the factory.

Our Elddis probably costs about £1k/year for storage (£400) insurance, annual service etc. It would fit on the drive at home but the neighbours could object and there's a covenant against even parking one.

Preparation is no big issue for us. The 'van is kept with bed made up and with enough tinned/dried food (paste, rice etc) for a meal and a night's worth of beer/wine. Just bung some clothes in a bag, pick up any perishables into a cool bag and collect 'grab bag' with and odds and sods we've collected and leave from the storage yard. Hitch up and away. It's usually clean enough and tidy enough to go straight back there too.

Needed a deep clean after a fortnight in French heatwave and went back to store today after being at home for a week but if it wasn't for work it'd have been a lot sooner. Wonder why I bothered with an external wash as just five miles to yard and it was splattered with stuff from wet roads.

Our appliances have been mostly OK but the heater thermostat had to be swapped out under warranty as it was turning off prematurely. We also had an issue with shower tray that cracked due to poor design but that was rectified FoC albeit only after I'd quoted consumer law to the supplying dealer.

Interesting you mention Bailey as we're looking at a Unicorn Cadiz as our next van. Interiors are certainly good. I suspect part of the 'flimsiness' feel is the need to keep weight down for matching with cars.

We find the C&MC sites suit us well. While the pitching/parking pullava I referenced above is a strict rule it's based on experience with fires etc. Nothing else seems particularly regimented, no more so than on any site with designated pitches etc. Rules about noise, on site speed, ball games etc are no more prescriptive than on the average French site. What specifically did you find 'regimented' about them?

The wi-fi is, at best, variable according to how near the base masts you are. I suspect a lot of people abuse it to stream films etc and/or have devices connected that are constantly calling home. I'd also be surprised if local infrastructure to the site isn't an issue - doubt there's fibre within 5 miles of say the C&MC Centenary Site in the New Forest. Rural settings also increase the probability that the mobile signal is shonky too.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Aug 19 at 17:55
 Caravaning - Bromptonaut
>> It is going to become much more difficult to have a conversion registered as such
>> and I think they were going to come up with some halfway house.

The rules are on the uk gov website:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/registering-a-diy-caravan/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motorhome

Like you I've heard anecdotal evidence, in my case probably in either caravan forums/Facebook groups or club magazines, that it's becoming more difficult. I believe some insurers can be snotty as well.
 Caravaning - R.P.
Sort of browsing on Autotrader whilst away from home overnight, found an 18 month old converted VW camper for a fraction of the price of a factory made model - you pays your money etc.
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