Motoring Discussion > Uber 'lose' licence in London Specialists
Thread Author: No FM2R Replies: 28

 Uber 'lose' licence in London - No FM2R
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50544283
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Duncan
"The firm says it will appeal against the decision and can continue to operate during that process."

I think it would be a shame if they did disappear. Why they can't/won't put their house in order, I don't know.

I would like to see an alternative to the dinosaur like black cab trade. Why shouldn't we be able to call up a car using a smart phone app?
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Bromptonaut
>> Why shouldn't we be able to call up a car using a smart phone app?

I'm pretty sure there are apps to call black cabs in London. Same locally with cabs and private hire.

Issue with Uber seems to be their inability to put house in order. Haven't looked at BBC report but Guardian website suggests several thousand rides where there was no insurance. Drivers swapping cars/permits and allowing people who wouldn't pass CRB type checks to drive.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Zero

>> Issue with Uber seems to be their inability to put house in order. Haven't looked
>> at BBC report but Guardian website suggests several thousand rides where there was no insurance.
>> Drivers swapping cars/permits and allowing people who wouldn't pass CRB type checks to drive.

Over 14,000 of them, while they were still under their probation period having been accused of the same before.

UBER is a thoroughly disreputable company and any company that develops an internal app (Greyball) to bypass regulatory checking needs to be put out of business.

The Uber concept in itself is not an issue and is a good thing, its just that Uber is unfit to operate it.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - CGNorwich
I hate travelling by taxi. Definitely the last choice as far as I am concerned. In London I would choose walking, tube, bus, taxi in that order. It’s not the cost either, just dislike the whole taxi experience
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Zero
>> I hate travelling by taxi. Definitely the last choice as far as I am concerned.

Oh good Lord, traveling around london by Black Cab is the ultimate way to go, you can call it on the side of the street, and have it drop you inches away from where you need to be, Busses, Tube cant do that, For cross london speed however, its the tube, but that is without doubt the most unpleasant form of transport other than walking on hot coals,
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - CGNorwich
you can call it on the side of the street, and have it drop you inches away from where you need to be

Anything up to a couple of mile is walkable and infinitely preferable to putting up with views of a cab driver in a vehicle smelling of air freshener, disinfectant and aftershave.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - neiltoo
View of the situation from a site which doesn't follow the Guardian party line:


" Sadiq Khan has dangled red meat to the unions over Uber since he became Mayor. The ban this morning was the second time the popular ride app service has been whacked by him. Why, you might ask, is Sadiq so keen to inconvenience the millions of Londoners – and potential voters – who use and enjoy the Uber app?

Electoral Commission records show that in 2015, Sadiq received almost £100,000 from three anti-Uber trade unions.
GMB: £20,000
TSSA: £15,000
Unite: £60,000

All three unions welcomed the decision today, they have been campaigning against new entrants into the taxi market for years. Limiting competition for taxis in London might hurt consumers, on the other hand it helps these powerful unions who are busily recruiting London cabbies to their ranks. Sadiq is paying them back ahead of passing the hat around next year for donations when he seeks re-election.

Sadiq has also burdened Uber with conditions attached to the Private-Hire Operators licence to which other operators are not being held. The last Uber London licence had 20 regulatory requirements, whereas other app based operators have no more than 9. Sadiq is singling out Uber for political reasons…"



License was withdrawn 2years ago, but magistrates held the cancellation for two years to let Uber correct the problems.
They're appealing again, and can operate until the appeal is heard.

I'm a long way from London, so I don't know what the frequency of issues is - is it significant.
It seems to me that the London minicab system doesn't work as well as the Private Hire licensing system elsewhere - again not based on a thorough experience in the capital.

 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Zero
>> Sadiq has also burdened Uber with conditions attached to the Private-Hire Operators licence to which
>> other operators are not being held. The last Uber London licence had 20 regulatory requirements,
>> whereas other app based operators have no more than 9. Sadiq is singling out Uber
>> for political reasons…"

Because they have been found to be non compliant with little oversight in very many ways.

The fact there are so many non black cab taxi services in London should show that the (lets admit it in the scheme of things very small) sums of money were of no consequence.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 25 Nov 19 at 16:47
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - wotspur

I have seen a person who from central London got a bill for 529.77 when their Prius driver drove out towards the A40 M25 to Gillingham in Kent ......well he was following his sat Nav , it just depends what details he put in . 3.5hr journey , that woukd probably have been under 150 in a black cab . Still more than I would have spent , but that’s Uber for you
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Terry
There may be (in fact probably are) some areas where the private hire trade need to improve.

But the principal reason for the opposition to Uber is simply protection of trade on the part of the black cabs. This will only be sustainable if the mayoral elections elect another "leftwinger".

Uber generally seem to provide lower fares than black cabs. There will always be exceptions but it's difficult without clear evidence to know if it is symptomatic , rare or simply untrue.

The black cab traded, as did much of UK manufacturing business, on a very strong brand, good product and professionalism. A lot of manufacturing business has failed over the last 30 years with a head in the sand belief in their good qualities, irrespective of what the customer wanted or the opposition offered.

Translated into the taxi business - Uber offered on line apps, payment online, cheaper fares (I've been very happy on the odd occasion I've used them), frequently with environmentally friendly vehicles (Prius). The black cab trade in denial failed to respond in 2012 when Uber launched in London with a remotely competitive offering:

- no app base (appeals to younger generation) - stick your arm out and hope one stops!
- no electric or hybrid cabs (may be available now)
- cab designs which reflect outdated regulation
- insistence on "the knowledge" rather than common sense use of satnav technology
- limited automated payment systems (some may have taken credit cards)

Uber are now doubt looking forward to the day (possibly not that far off) when driverless technology is adopted. Uber technology will make their electric cabs charge less than half the price of black cabs - no driver to pay!

I know this may make an uncomfortable read for some - but head in the sand is not a winning solution unless you are nearing retirement.

 Uber 'lose' licence in London - No FM2R
If Black Cabs provided all that the market wanted, then Uber and the like wouldn't get a look in. I have no issue with the idea of Black Cabs being competed with.

Uber though, is a b***** awful company prone to all sorts of abuses. But because Uber is awful, doesn't make them all so. And Uber could fix itself, but so far it hasn't.

Similar trouble in Germany now I see.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - zippy
>>The Knowledge

I guess if you ask a Uber to take you to a particular show in London you will get a blank stare.

Uber can't compete with the instant availability of black cabs at the moment. Stepped out of a pub a month ago and hailed a taxi as it passed. Took us to the theatre that was showing the play we wanted to see, for the life of me I couldn't remember the theatre's name.

You tend not to get ripped off by black cab drivers: www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/500-uber-bill-has-ruined-my-christmas-218937/

I have had a couple of black cab journeys recently, one I was in a real rush to get to the station, the fare was £12, I got a tenner out and was scrabbling for the change and tip, the driver said make it £10 or you'll miss your train.

I was unwell in London (breathing probs) and Mrs Z hailed a taxi to take me back to the hotel to get my inhaler. No fare charged! Had to leave some money on the tray.

I had to bail from a Uber in Birmingham when it went the wrong way down a one way street.

I had to tell another that I did know a city when we passed my place of work for the second time on a journey.

Miss Z had a very low charge on her phone. The Uber fare quoted was about 30% more than on my phone that was fully charged - how is that fair or transparent pricing?
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 21 Dec 19 at 22:29
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Duncan
Zippy said

>> Uber
>>
>> and
>>
>> black cabs
>>

In summary he seemed to say "Uber bad", "Black cab good", but that was about it.

He referred to a woman being overcharged for a journey to Gollingham in a Uber car, but forget to mention that in the same week a black cab driver was given another four life sentences to add to those he already has.

What is his solution? He doesn't seem to have one.

Both (all) elements of this industry should be regulated and controlled. I feel that the days of the black cab 'knowledge' are coming to an end. Or if not the end, then quite massive change and simplification.

So a Uber driver doesn't know at which theatre Pygmalion is being produced? So? We had better shut the app based private hire business down, then!

There is room for both components of this industry. Uber must be controlled - of course. Black cabs must do the same.

I have never used Uber, but I know plenty of people who do. I haven't been in a black cab for 5? years. Private hire - about a year ago, coming back from Heathrow.
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 22 Dec 19 at 06:50
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Bromptonaut
>> He referred to a woman being overcharged for a journey to Gollingham in a Uber
>> car, but forget to mention that in the same week a black cab driver was
>> given another four life sentences to add to those he already has.

You seriously think Warboys has the slightest relevance here? He's a one off egregious offender in a trade where the worst offending is limited to disrespecting cyclists and a blind spot over south of the river.

There's nothing wrong with Uber's model - other ride hailing apps seem to work OK. The problem is the company itself and it's repeated disregard for the law. That's not an accident or a case of stuff overlooked; it's baked in to the institution.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Duncan
>> You seriously think Warboys has the slightest relevance here? He's a one off egregious offender
>> in a trade where the worst offending is limited to disrespecting cyclists and a blind
>> spot over south of the river.

The point I was making was that Zippy seems to think that all black cab drivers are saints. Which they aren't.

Zippy also seems to thank that Uber and its drivers are spawn of the Devil. Which they aren't.


>> There's nothing wrong with Uber's model - other ride hailing apps seem to work OK.
>> The problem is the company itself and it's repeated disregard for the law. That's not
>> an accident or a case of stuff overlooked; it's baked in to the institution.

Why Uber doesn't sort itself out, I simply don't know. Perhaps to a greater or lesser degree it has. Perhaps it's simply the few bad apples which you are bound to get in a barrel containing 40,000 apples that we are hearing about.

The problem is that on this subject everybody except me seems to be blinkered...
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 22 Dec 19 at 09:48
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Zero

>> Why Uber doesn't sort itself out, I simply don't know. Perhaps to a greater or
>> lesser degree it has. Perhaps it's simply the few bad apples which you are bound
>> to get in a barrel containing 40,000 apples that we are hearing about.

And the problem is, its not "a few bad apples". Uber has a distinctly "we do what we like with no regard for any regulatory, safety or social issues" attitude that is baked into their corporate culture.
Any company that develops a special cloaking service in case it is being checked is NOT to be trusted.

>> The problem is that on this subject everybody except me seems to be blinkered...
>>

Not at all, don't think anyone disagrees with the technology or business model, and there are very many other examples that seem to work well, we all agree however, that the nature of the service risk needs to be mitigated or policed in some way and NOT deliberately circumvented.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - zippy
>>Zippy also seems to thank that Uber and its drivers are spawn of the Devil. Which they aren't.


I speak as I find.

I reckon that I have taken 100+ black cabs and only one was an a*** when I was stuck in the 'burbs of London and asked to be taken to the nearest tube station only to be told that I had to tell him which station!

I have taken about 15 Uber journeys and the issue rate is higher. I have had drivers who clearly didn't know how to use the app to log the journey and in hindsight were clearly not the driver they were supposed to be (5 stars but couldn't log the start of the journey, end of the journey etc)!!!!

Plus the other issues that I have had. I will avoid them in the future.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Duncan
>>
>> I have seen a person who from central London got a bill for 529.77 when
>> their Prius driver

Evidence?
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - zippy
>> >>
>> >> I have seen a person who from central London got a bill for 529.77
>> when
>> >> their Prius driver
>>
>> Evidence?
>>

www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/500-uber-bill-has-ruined-my-christmas-218937/

and includes a screenshot of the route taken.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - CGNorwich
How are Black Cab drivers vetted? Is the procedure the same for Uber drivers?
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Zero
>> How are Black Cab drivers vetted?

Enhanced CRB check, every three years.

>>Is the procedure the same for Uber drivers?

The requirement is the same, but the procedure is very different. For black cabs the cabby has to submit the check to TfL, for Uber, as a self employed driver you just need to tick a check box to say you have one. Uber dont maintain a record or make random vetting checks..

In use, the black cab has a license on the outside, and the drivers photo and license displayed inside. The Uber has a dent on the outside and any old bloke inside.

Lets be honest tho, the chances of you having an issue using either is remote.



Last edited by: Zero on Sun 22 Dec 19 at 10:57
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Duncan
>> The requirement is the same, but the procedure is very different. For black cabs the
>> cabby has to submit the check to TfL, for Uber, as a self employed driver
>> you just need to tick a check box to say you have one.
>>

Then the procedure must have changed since the days when I was a black cab driver, or a minicab driver, or a private hire driver.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Zero

>> Then the procedure must have changed since the days when I was a black cab
>> driver, or a minicab driver, or a private hire driver.

For Uber?
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Duncan
My minicab driving and private hire driving (same thing) were controlled by the local authority. Criminal record checks were carried out by DBS, I think - Disclosure and Barring Service, if I recall correctly. You couldn't certify yourself as being conviction free. Neither was it done by the employer.

www.gov.uk/request-copy-criminal-record

tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/private-hire-driver-licence
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 22 Dec 19 at 12:53
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - zippy
There was an article on the BBC's Click recently about UBER with their drivers struggling to find out how the booking algorithm worked.

He reported that UBER is not sending the nearest cab to the booker, even though they were supposed to and had potential passengers standing by his taxi booking and UBER sent cars from some distance away.

The reporter tested this and found it to be the same - with the reporter actually inside the cab when he booked it!

Seems UBER cannot even be transparent with their own drivers.

 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Manatee
I would have guessed it was more complicated than just sending the nearest one, because you would want as many customers as possible to have an acceptable maximum waiting time rather than some having a very wait at the expense of somebody else having a very elongated one. You might also want your algorithm to process allocations in batches so as to optimise the overall distance travelled.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - No FM2R
Kind of sharing out the delay rather than dumping it all on one person?

Makes good sense I guess.
 Uber 'lose' licence in London - Lygonos
Used black cabs 4 times in London over the weekend - was 6 of us so we used the hybrid jobs that look a bit like the old black cabs (which only seat 5 passengers) but are quicker, quieter and have a huge skyroof (and cost close to 70 grand apparently).

Cabbies all knew exactly where we were going, naming the streets as well as the destination.

Wouldn't touch an Uber.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX
Latest Forum Posts