Motoring Discussion > Driving vs flying Miscellaneous
Thread Author: legacylad Replies: 52

 Driving vs flying - legacylad
My next trip to the C Blanca is scheduled for late September, accommodation booked for 6 weeks, although if the U.K. weather is particularly poor I’ll extend my stay...in mid Nov 2018 we had fabulous weather on a trip we booked at 24 hours notice.

I’ve always flown and got cheap car rentals at Alicante, albeit changing the car every 2/3 weeks to get super cheap deals, and I don’t find that a hassle. I’m now considering driving a car over. No real reason other than it will make a change. An early morning flight means that we are normally settled into our accommodation by early afternoon, big supermarket shop en route, 10 hours door to door max.
Driving, probably Hull>Zeebrugge, will be more expensive than flying, even sharing transport costs, at least two overnights including the ferry, but a ‘mini adventure’. My only concern is driving a RHD car on a daily basis, mountain roads etc etc. Confidence isn’t a problem as I enjoy driving overseas, but 6 weeks, plus 10 weeks should I choose this option when I return in January 2021. I see lots of UK cars when I visit in winter, but I’d feel more comfortable driving a LHD car!

And I wouldn’t take my car. Far too many opportunities to get it damaged in car parks, left overnight in out of the way places, dumped all day on rough mountain tracks whilst out walking. And a bit ( lot) thirsty on fuel. I’d probably buy a cheap estate car for the trip, get it serviced and suck it and see.

Any thoughts ?
 Driving vs flying - Mr Moo
Sounds quite appealing. I like driving through Europe.

Just check that your insurers are ok with covering that length of trip outside the UK. Some only allow 30 days in any one period of insurance.
 Driving vs flying - legacylad
Thanks. Good point, I’d not considered that as it’s been 20+ years since I took my car abroad, although I always ensure my annual travel policy covers me for up to 90 days overseas on any one trip.
 Driving vs flying - sooty123
I've driven down there before, it was a good trip, parts of it are a bit boring and flat, however driving across the mountains on the French/Spanish border was a highlight. It was a very good experience. One I'd do again, if you want a LHD have a look online, there's probably more than you think. Plus if you don't want to return it'll be easier to sell and then you could fly back, if you choose to.
 Driving vs flying - legacylad
Friends of mine drove down from Northern England last year and crossed to Santander or Bilbao from Portsmouth ? They had a medium sized camper van and enjoyed several days in the Picos de Europa. They won’t take the camper again on such a trip...they are keen cyclists, climbers etc and driving the camper into the mountains most days, even from rented accommodation, was a PITA.
 Driving vs flying - Zero

>> tMy only concern is driving a
>> RHD car on a daily basis, mountain roads etc etc. Confidence isn’t a problem as
>> I enjoy driving overseas, but 6 weeks, plus 10 weeks should I choose this option
>> when I return in January 2021. I see lots of UK cars when I visit
>> in winter, but I’d feel more comfortable driving a LHD car!

Fear not, it quickly becomes second nature. As for adventure, yeah, its part of the holiday, you could easily get lots of good trecking* eating and drinking in along the way.

*some real mountains!

Wouldn't do Hull Zebrugge tho. Expensive, less flexible and ultimately slower than M1/m25/M2 Chunnel/Calais.
 Driving vs flying - legacylad
Z....you do realise I try NOT to drive south of Barnsley.
 Driving vs flying - Duncan
>> Z....you do realise I try NOT to drive south of Barnsley.
>>

Please do not encourage him!

We DO not want him coming anywhere remotely near Watford. You know they eat their food off saucepan lids, don't you?
 Driving vs flying - Terry
For the last few years we have spent the winter (approx 3 months) about 40 miles east of Malaga.

We rent a decent apartment and have driven down - both UK to France ferry + drive, and also Santander/Bilbao from Portsmouth then drive.

The 24 hour ferry is quicker - we usually stop overnight a couple of hundred miles down the road and do the rest the following day. But you need to like gentle boat swaying in a force 10.

I find the drive across France rather boring TBH. Hotels close to the mway are rubbish - Travel Lodge and Premier Inn are much much better.

Cost wise there is not much in it - extra hotel nights + tolls + fuel cancel out the extra ferry costs.

But the real benefit is that getting 3 months clothes, shoes, laptops, books, medicines etc etc below an ~ 20kg limit is difficult. Also means that I do not have to rent when I get there.

I've found no real problems with RHD on even small roads, although generally avoid actual tracks.
 Driving vs flying - Zero
>> Z....you do realise I try NOT to drive south of Barnsley.

Choosing to go to Hull, braving the North Sea, and driving through Belgium is a rational diversion? What are you funny northern peeps smoking?
 Driving vs flying - tyrednemotional
P&O North Sea ferries are an expensive "luxury" (term used advisedly).

Hull - Rotterdam just about makes sense from the North if you're heading to Northern Europe/Scandinavia, but Hull - Zeebrugge is really in "no man's land" for most journeys.

Even then, Harwich - Hook can be cheaper than Hull - Rotterdam (largely because going out overnight and returning during the day, something not possible from Hull, is a very practical solution, both on cost and timetable convenience). I also find the Stena line boats rather better quality (and with less "entertainment" (term again used advisedly)).

About the only advantage of the overnight crossing is a "refreshed" early start sur le Continent, and the ability subsequently to get a full day's mileage under your belt.

The traverse of Hull, bad at the best of times, is full-on gridlock on P&O's timetables, as both arrival and departure times coincide with rush-hour - a restful drive it ain't. Rotterdam is usually a pita on returning with major gridlocks on the Dutch motorways just when you want to use them. The Hook is better, and Zeebrugge is admittedly rather less congested.

For France and South (e.g. Spain), it's either the crossings to Northern Spain (of which I have no experience) or Dover-Calais or the Tunnel every time. Ferry is generally cheaper, the Tunnel can be more convenient. Choice for me is determined by where any stopover is going to be. If I want a mid-journey break on Day 1, then 90 minutes on the boat and a leg-stretch gets the vote. If I drive down to the channel and stay UK-side or just France-side, then the Tunnel works better and saves some overall journey-time.
 Driving vs flying - God
Back in the day I drove to Tenerife in a LHD Citroen AX diseasel. Bought the car on Exchange & Mart, I think it had a LHD section back then.

Dover ferry, down through Paris, Madrid etc. etc, never planned any stops apart from the ferry ferry from Cadiz.

The ole woman and I were going to live there (for 3 years) had loads of stuff in the car (on show!)
no probs at all.

Drove back (3 years later) on my own via Portugal, Algarve, Lisbon, Porto etc. then ferry from Santander to Plymouth.

My sisters 'boy' did Dover to CdS in 24 hours non-stop after I tuned his Fiat 131. They called 'im speedy Keith - probably did a bit of Peruvian marching powder at the time (ex minicab driver!)
 Driving vs flying - Runfer D'Hills
I regularly drive to Milan for work and France for hols. RHD no problem, just hang back a bit more to give yourself a better sight line for overtaking.

Wouldn't do Hull crossing, tunnel or Dover ferry every time.
 Driving vs flying - Runfer D'Hills
Further to...you say you wouldn't want to take your car LL?

Have to say, if I had a Porsche ( even if it was the girl's one ) I'd not be able to resist taking it on a trip like that.

;-)
 Driving vs flying - Bromptonaut
I'll add my two pennyworth here.

We had camping holidays on the continent from when my kids were in Primary (The Lad about to start) until both were at Uni or older. Spans the years 1999 to 2013 and once more with the Caravan.

Nearly always crossed by ferry from Dover to either Calais or Dunkerque depending on who had best offers. Shuttle once or twice but usually silly money. Once and never again on a 'High Speed Ferry'. What worked for us was a crossing mid Sunday afternoon so leaving home late morning with a quick toilet stop at South Mimms or Thurrock. Abandoned latter after a nightmare where a rain soaked East London was heading en masse for Lakeside and it took half an hour to get off the services.

Immediate night stop, usually in Coquelles, then early breakfast and 07:00 start. Grenoble, Chambery or Clermont Ferrand were just about do-able in a day with kids. Easier as they got older and fewer stops needed. I'd still do that on first night now if not towing the 'van. I'm pretty well tatered after 600 miles but I'm sure others would and could press on into Spain.

Driving on the right in a RHD car was never a problem, even in the early trips. Nowadays after 50-60k over there down the years it's just a groove I drop into. On the Autoroute it's pretty easy, just be wary of blind spots - I will turn in my seat to clear the left side before pulling out.

On ordinary roads, as others say, hang back to improve sightlines for overtaking. Use your front seat passenger as an observer but final call is yours. Roundabouts need a bit of care. In some cars, including both Berlingos, it's easy to loose a vehicle behind the left a pillar and for respective movement to mean they stay in that blind spot. Move your head about to ensure it's clear.

These days with satnav navigation should be a cinch but it's still a good idea to plan an approximate route and have a paper map to hand in case of problems. If there's two of you get one to act as nav. If you're going round Paris with a roof box bear in mind some of the urban motorways are restricted to less than 2 metres height.

Mountain roads in the Alps, Pyrennes or the Massif have never been a problem RHD, even the minor ones. Nothing I've driven in Spain albeit that's been in LHD hire cars would give me any concern that way either.
 Driving vs flying - Fullchat
As Hull (European City of Culture 2017) is on the doorstep, although a bit expensive its just so convenient. Have the day getting ready. Tip up at the docks for late afternoon and the day to yourself when you return.
The main drag through to the docks is currently the subject of extensive work which will aide traffic flow.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 5 Jun 20 at 19:28
 Driving vs flying - Zero
>> As Hull (European City of Culture 2017)

About the time everyone realised the EU was barmy.
 Driving vs flying - PeterS
>> As Hull (European City of Culture 2017) is on the doorstep, although a bit expensive
>> its just so convenient. Have the day getting ready. Tip up at the docks for
>> late afternoon and the day to yourself when you return.
>> The main drag through to the docks is currently the subject of extensive work which
>> will aide traffic flow.
>>

We used the overnight ferry from Hull once as we’d been in North Yorkshire anyway...a wedding from memory. I think it was a bit pricey but not, as I recall, any more than an overnight ferry from Portsmouth and we did get a pretty good nights sleep as it’s not a quick crossing. So you do get the whole day on the continent! With the best will in the world, from here (W Sussex) it’s a drag to be in France before lunchtime using Eurotunnel; from Yorkshire almost impossible, so I see the sense in taking that route :)

As it happens we also spent the weekend in Hull in 2017 (combined with a trip round some of Hockney’s haunts in East Yorkshire) and I have to say it had improved immeasurable since my last visit in, probably, 1987. Had some great food in the redeveloped area by the docks, and some interesting museums as well. Old Hull is quite pretty too...just a shame most of it was blown to bits in the war! The hotels on the other hand were somewhat lacking. The weather was not dissimilar to the heatwave we have just had, so all in all a good weekend.
 Driving vs flying - Fullchat
That's good to hear PeterS :) There have been a a couple of new hotel developments.

As an aside I wonder what happened to Dutchie, a resident of the city. Last heard of in a Brexit post on 17/12/18?
 Driving vs flying - hawkeye
I don't like the M25, or the M11 and especially I dislike the A14 as it used to be a couple of years ago. That makes the relaxed and almost local Hull to Zeebrugge crossing my preferred route to Europe from Yorkshire. I don't think 'gridlock' in Hull compares in any shape to some of the stuff I've endured on the M25 in high season. Expensive, yes, but our steady flow of guests cushioned the cost, thankfully.

Frankly, I'd jump at the chance to take a Porsche abroad for a road trip; isn't that what they were built for?
 Driving vs flying - Zero

>> Frankly, I'd jump at the chance to take a Porsche abroad for a road trip;
>> isn't that what they were built for?

I think its just an ornament on his drive, A gnome if you will.
 Driving vs flying - legacylad
Haha....some of us have garages and actually use them for their intended purpose.

Seriously...a road trip would make a very pleasant change as I visit that part of the world 3 or 4 times a year. Always flying. Often it’s a very last minute trip for one week, late November, booked at 24 hours notice. Other times the usual 2 weeks in mid May before the summer crowds arrive, then I stay away until end September and the CBlanca Mtn Walking Group programme commences early October.

Friends had an offer accepted on a place there earlier this year so I’m sure they’d appreciate me taking some of their gear out...and other friends with a place out there have previously jokingly asked if I could bring a few casks of proper beer should I ever drive out.

Thanks for the route advice. Appreciated.
 Driving vs flying - PeterS
Oh, and on the ‘should you’ point... Yes, definitely. And take your car...I don’t see the point in leaving a nice car at home and taking an old banger that could, though probably won’t, let you down. The hassle if it does just isn’t worth it. Plus, what’s the point having a decent car if you don’t use it? Given you’re not time constrained stop along the way to see a few more places. You’ll probably find it’s more economical than you think as well, since much of the journey will be lightly trafficked autoroutes. I remember getting from Arundel to Annecy on one tank (admittedly diesel) in a Merc estate once, which is around 800 miles. But I reckon you’ll probably get 20% more mpg than your average in the UK, even taking into account the increased passengers and odd hill (Pyrenees or Alps...j
 Driving vs flying - smokie
Do factor in the toll route costs as these would not be insignificant over that distance.

www.sanef.com/en/my-journey/price-of-my-journey
 Driving vs flying - No FM2R
>>Any thoughts ?

If your only goal is to get there then it's a daft and expensive idea.

If you see the journey as part of the holiday and will stop off places, mooch from restaurant to winery to cafe to hotel as you slowly meander your way towards your ultimate suggestion, then it's an excellent idea.

As for not using the Porsche then why own it? FFS where's the joy in a car stuck in a garage a tho8sand miles away from where you're driving a POS estate? Sounds like my grandmother who would never use her transistor radio for fear of flattening the batteries.

Surely if you can't use it for such significant things you'd be better to sell it and buy something that suits you better?
 Driving vs flying - PeterS
Yes, it’s the ‘keeping thing for best’ syndrome. Some people keep things all their life ‘for best’ and they never get used. Then they’re thrown away, unused :(

A road trip in a Porsche though Europe sounds like a wonderful way to while away time!
 Driving vs flying - Runfer D'Hills
My father wasn't poor, but nor was he rich. However, the philosophy I've inherited from him is to buy once, but buy good and enjoy the experience.

He had very few possessions, his clothes and shoes fitted easily into a small single wardrobe, but they were all good quality. Bespoke suits etc. He kept his cars a long time, but he always had good ones by the standards of the day. Same with watches, pens, wallets, tools, furniture etc.

Keeping for best simply wasn't in his vocabulary, he treated every day as if it was the best day of his life so far. His enthusiasm was infectious and although he passed more than 40 years ago, I am still encouraged and guided by his attitudes.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 6 Jun 20 at 09:46
 Driving vs flying - neiltoo
Another vote for driving. We've driven a lot over the years, and use the journey as part of the holiday.
Used Hull to Zebrugge on a trip to Lake Iseo (between Como and Garda) Drove Zebrugge past Brussels and Luxemburg, the south through Alsace to Colmar. (off motorway in this part of France)
Three days in Colmar, then Basle, St Gotthard Pass, Como to Iseo for a week.
Returned via Beaune for three nights, then an overnight in Belgium on the River Maas.
Three nights gets you time to get an evening meal, a full day in the city, then a full day in the region. It was the vendage in Alsace, so a lot of time avoiding trailers full of grapes! But the Vosge area is stunning - neither French or German - a nice mix of both.

Motorway through Belgium is however, not that easy. Poor suface in many places, and full of Belgians - not the best drivers in the world.
 Driving vs flying - sooty123
. Poor suface in many places, and full
>> of Belgians - not the best drivers in the world.
>>

That's an understatement, pretty awful second only to drivers in the ME from my experience.
 Driving vs flying - PeterS

>>
>> That's an understatement, pretty awful second only to drivers in the ME from my experience.
>>

Having spent 4 or 5 months driving in Kenya, I’ve reassessed what I consider bad roads and bad drivers ;)
 Driving vs flying - Runfer D'Hills
Ah, now, that maybe explains it. There must be a lot of covert Belgians and Kenyans driving around in Cheshire then...
;-)
 Driving v Flying - Fullchat
Ive found the first 250/300 miles through Belgium and France whilst you head down South is quite tedious so its a case of pedal to metal and crunch off the miles after that the world is your oyster as they say.
Really looking forward to another trip to Europe, car motorcycle I don't care. Some credits on North Sea Ferries waiting to be used after a cancelled Easter trip to Normandy.
 Driving v Flying - Zero
Northern France and Southern Belgium is very tedious, I'm not sure why the Germans and French fought over it - TWICE!
 Driving vs flying - tyrednemotional
...in my experience, the surfaces of (most of) the Belgian motorways have improved dramatically over the last few years. (Driving a motorhome with a track that nearly matches the lorry ruts, and a wheelbase that is badly-suited to the joint-spacing on the concrete ones, believe me, you notice!).

The driving skills of the Belgians, however......... (though, TBH and maybe surprisingly, my view of the Dutch is much the same)

As regards driving long-distances on the Continent vs flying, then if it is to be Motorway/Autobahn/Autoroute/Autostrada/Autopista or WHY all the way then for me it would be fly every time.

Taking one's time, and the "road less travelled" then it becomes part of the holiday, and can be just as, if not more, enjoyable as the destination. It will be slower, though (no bad thing if treated as part of the holiday).

The main downside of the slower "back road" (and by this I mean avoiding motorways and the main arterial roads, not necessarily secondary main roads) routes over the last few years has been the proliferation of speed cameras. Whilst the very concept of taking the slower route doesn't actually envisage speeding, it is relatively easy to ping multiple cameras if one isn't concentrating nearly all the time. In the motorhome, I'm not exactly foot to the floor (but not dawdling either) and though I've escaped over the years so far, I've had a few close shaves in Germany, France an Austria (to the extent that I might have expected a ticket to arrive once home).

The main attraction of such a road-trip to me is/would be to select a few sights off the international tourism trail, and savour the local ambience.
 Driving vs flying - legacylad
I had friends, whom sadly I’ve lost touch with, who lived in La Louviere south of Brussels. I’d often drive over from Hull, stay with them, then drive further, dump the car ( years ago it was a Saab 9000 CS 2.3) and walk in both the Vosges and Jura along the GR5 with a bunch of Belgian friends. Beautiful parts of the world, very different hills to the high stuff south of Lac Leman.
Somewhere else I’d love to return to. Decent beer, cheese, contented cows and even low altitude winter sports resorts...I remember staying in Mouthe, a small town in the Comte region of the Jura and it’s claim to fame was the lowest temperature recorded in France.
 Driving vs flying - Runfer D'Hills
A vague notion, not exactly an ambition, more of a dream really, is when/if circumstances/diseases/politics/finances allow, is to recreate a "Long way down" type trip. Not on a motorcycle, but in a suitably rugged four wheeled somethingorother.

If all this malarkey leads to enforced early "retirement" I just might...given all the above caveats of course.
 Driving vs flying - CGNorwich
"Yes, it’s the ‘keeping thing for best’ syndrome"

If you were brought up in the fifties your parent's house probably had a "front room" or the like which was hardly ever used and saved for special occasions. It effectively halved the day to day living space in the house. Most curious idea
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 6 Jun 20 at 16:18
 Driving vs flying - sooty123
>> "Yes, it’s the ‘keeping thing for best’ syndrome"
>>
>> If you were brought up in the fifties your parent's house probably had a "front
>> room" or the like which was hardly ever used and saved for special occasions. It
>> effectively halved the day to day living space in the house. Most curious idea
>>
I can remember people having them much later than that, family members had them as late as the early 90s. Did you ever have one?
 Driving vs flying - CGNorwich
My parents had a typical 1930s semi with front room they kept of best through the fifties and early sixties. Around 1963 in a fit of modernisation which coincided with buying a fridge, washing machine and an Austin A35 they had the wall between the two living rooms knocked down.

Then came central heating and fitted carpet from Cyril Lord. We never had it so good! The phone and colour TV didn't arrive until I left home in 1973

 Driving vs flying - sooty123
1963, that must have been very early on for some form of open plan living.
I can't say I'm always a fan of one big room downstairs, I quite like having separate spaces for different things. Although it hugely depends on how it is done, some houses it works well others not really.
Some of the houses on the next street still have serving hatches between the dining room and the kitchen. I actually quite like them as a bit of an old fashioned feature, I'd probably never use it though.
 Driving vs flying - Terry

>> Some of the houses on the next street still have serving hatches between the dining
>> room and the kitchen. I actually quite like them as a bit of an old
>> fashioned feature, I'd probably never use it though.

Our house had a serving hatch. I liked it so much I thought I would make it bigger - it's now 8ft wide and8ft high. Much nicer!
 Driving vs flying - Zero

>> Some of the houses on the next street still have serving hatches between the dining
>> room and the kitchen. I actually quite like them as a bit of an old
>> fashioned feature, I'd probably never use it though.

I have one, and we dont.
 Driving vs flying - God
Once upon a time I drove up through northern France, into Belgium, Netherlands, into Germany, visited Hannover, Hamberg, Lubeck, up along the Baltic to Stralsund, Isle of Rugen, Peenemunde where the V2 rocket was developed.

Then down through Poland, into Czechoslovakia, back into Deutschland via Dresden etc.

I was driving a LHD auto 230CE Merc so it wasn't too much of a trial, covered 10,000km in 2 weeks and enjoyed every minute of it.
 Driving vs flying - Runfer D'Hills
Seems more recent, but it's 21 years ago since we took the Westfield down through France and Spain over a 3 week period, stopping in different places every couple of nights. We had done something similar the year before too. Alps, beaches, forests, vineyards etc. Good fun.
 Driving vs flying - Runfer D'Hills
>>Good fun...

...and then she got pregnant and we had to sell our 18thC converted grain mill in the most beautiful but very remote part of the Scottish Borders, move to an "executive estate" in ruddy Cheshire, sell the Westfield, buy a Mondeo and spend the next 20 years vegetating in small town nowheresville.

But I'm not bitter...

;-)
 Driving vs flying - legacylad
Saturday afternoon shouldn’t you be trailing round Cheshire Oaks ? Still closed...? How very unfortunate.
Good pal of mine used to live in Lymm, drank at the Swan with two Nicks. Apart from the Sandstone Trail I don’t know that part of the world, although in a previous Lyth there were annual weekend visits to Chester staying at the Green Bough and I attended lectures by the British Chelonia Group at Chester Zoo on a regular basis.
 Driving vs flying - Robin O'Reliant
>> But I'm not bitter...


Remember who pulled the trigger though, Runfer. You should have had the safety catch on.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 6 Jun 20 at 20:03
 Driving vs flying - Zero

>> ...and then she got pregnant and we had to sell our 18thC converted grain mill
>> in the most beautiful but very remote part of the Scottish Borders, move to an
>> "executive estate" in ruddy Cheshire, sell the Westfield, buy a Mondeo and spend the next
>> 20 years vegetating in small town nowheresville.
>>
>> But I'm not bitter...

And of course none of it was your fault.
 Driving vs flying - Robin O'Reliant
>> And of course none of it was your fault.


It might not have been...;-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 6 Jun 20 at 20:03
 Driving vs flying - tyrednemotional
>>
>> It might not have been...;-)
>>

...but he wouldn't be bitter....

;-)
 Driving vs flying - God
Blame is for God, and small children.
 Driving vs flying - Bobby
I was watching an old episode of Top Gear the other week and they were in the Channel Tunnel and I said to the missus, I really fancy doing one of our French trips again.

When the kids were wee we drove to the South of France in our Renault Scenics to stay in Keycamp tents. Fantastic holidays. You could bring back some amount of booze in a Scenic using all the hidden compartments not to mention the floor of the back seat area which the kids didn't need for their small legs. If I remember correctly, one Scenic had a square hole at each side of the parcel shelf that took a plastic bottle of wine - was it vin rouge or something it was actually called??Came in a litre or 1.5 litre bottle.

Anyway last time we did it, one of the families we went with somersaulted their Scenic down the motorway whuch kind of brought the French driving holidays to an abrupt end!

Now it would be just the missus and I, nice car (the X1) and I really fancy doing it again. Maybe even take our own tent (if the rats havent destroyed it in the loft).

With Covid and flying risks, there is a certain further appeal of driving and using the tunnel so minimal risk of full on mingling with crowds.

We normally would drive from Glasgow to my brother's in Bishop Stortford, stay over there, up early and drive to Tunnel and get early train and usually get past Paris for an overnight and then drive on down to Montpellier area. Last time we did it we crossed the Millau Bridge (several times as I didn't realise the visitor centre was on the North side) which hadn't long opened.

Although I do remember hearing one story, kid in my nieces class at school in Livingston, family did something similar except they drove non stop from Montpellier to Livingston with the father at the wheel the whole time. Tragically he actually fell asleep at the wheel as they came off the sliproad at Livingston and one of his daughters got killed in the crash.
 Driving vs flying - No FM2R
>> fell asleep at the wheel

Why oh why do people think that driving for too many hours is a good thing, a worthwhile risk or even a macho thing?

I fell asleep at the wheel when I was much, much younger. Very scary. Not something I have ever risked happening again.

Yet I hear some people bragging about how long they've driven in much the same way that some brag about how much they can drink. I don't understand either.

Sometimes I drive to the south of Chile, about 1,500 miles to where I go. That takes two tiring days with multiple stops, breaks and rests. Quite a lot try to drive as far as they can in one go. The death rate is appalling.

On another subject:

>>I was watching an old episode of Top Gear

One of my daughters is a serious fan of the Clarkson trio and asked me last night when the three of them really got into their stride?

I don't know. It certainly wouldn't have been their early episodes but I don't really know when it would be?

Any suggestions?
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