Motoring Discussion > KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Fullchat Replies: 48

 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Fullchat
Some may remember my thread of exactly a year and 2 days ago where the brakes were not bled at a main dealer service despite the operation being itemised and charged for.

There is a link here which contains a further link with pictures :)

www.kiaownersclub.co.uk/threads/brakes-bled-or-not.50681/#post-328723

Todays story and lots more pictures is captured in this link:

www.kiaownersclub.co.uk/threads/dealer-servicing-epic-fail-again.56643/#post-365965

To summarise I with only 25K miles and 5 K since the last service I had 2 choices of services.
A 30K Service at £79 :) or a 20K service (which I should have had last year) at £279.

As last years was not completed and I received a refund I opted for the £279 'On Line Booking' service which included the brake bleed again. The Service Receptionist inquired as to why I had opted for the dearer service and I informed her of the omissions last year.

So I left it today, reminding her of the requirement for the brake bleeding and went for a wander. When it was finished paid the bill and went to check the vehicle over.

You'd never guess what? The brakes had not been bled.

I informed them of my observations but a check with the technicians revealed that infact i was wrong, they had been done but cleaned afterwards with brake cleaner. No brake fluid stains, no brake cleaner staining and no tool marks on the bleed screws (you will see in the pictures which were difficult to take due to bright sunlight upsetting the camera).

Service Manager defended their position. After I informed him I had been authorised to test and inspect vehicles up to a standard suitable for court evidential purposes he offered to 're do' the brakes for my piece of mind. T**t!!

The last set of pictures show what the bleed screws look like when they have actually been bled.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 20 Jul 20 at 23:38
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - No FM2R
Unbelievable.

Have you chosen your preferred method for making them regret this?
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Duncan
TL:DR

Why is it important to have your brakes bled?
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - No FM2R
>> TL:DR
>>
>> Why is it important to have your brakes bled?

Not really the point, I don't think.

FC, the customer, asked for it to be done and paid for it to be done. The Service people said they would do it and subsequently said that they had done it.

But they had not <- that's the point.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Duncan
>> But they had not <- that's the point.
>>

Oh. I get that.

Supplementary question. Why would he be so keen to have his brakes bled? I was curious.

Perhaps the pedal was a bit spongy, and he felt a brake bleed might firm it up?

I may have answered my own question.....

p.s. NoFM. You are keeping strange hours, or is that a bit personal?
Last edited by: Duncan on Tue 21 Jul 20 at 08:11
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - sooty123
Some people like to have it changed every so often, it's usually on the manufacturers schedule to be carried out.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - No FM2R
>>p.s. NoFM. You are keeping strange hours, or is that a bit personal?

Not at all. I am one of those who doesn't need many hours sleep. Even when I am working I need no more than an average of 6 hours.

With the enforced inactivity at the moment, remember we have had a strict military enforced curfew and quarantine for three months, then I need no more than 2 or 3.

So I tend to go to bed around 4 or 5am (9 or 10am UK) and get up again around 7 or 8am (Noon or 1pm UK)

But sometimes I miss a night's sleep so sleep longer the next night.

In normal times it has always been a fantastic advantage. I get a lot done at night when everbody else is sleeping, not to mention plenty of "alone time".

But when there's nothing to do, it's a proper PITA.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Zero
Lets get dunks question out of the way.

Changing Brake fluid is often on the service schedule of many cars. Every three years is the usual interval.

Why? Brake fluid is supposed to be hygroscopic, ie absorb water. The old lags say this is bad because your brake fluid will boil, your brakes will fail, and you will crash into a truck at the bottom of porlock hill. The new lags say this is bad because the water in the fluid will rust your abs pump, seize your wheel cylinders and you will crash into a truck at the bottom of porlock hill.

Its all rollo of course, I have never changed brake fluid and traveled porlock hill safely many times.

Having said that, I will get mine done in the Beemer, because the car will bleat at me to get it done.


We now return to your normal programming, "Why is main dealer servicing so s***"
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 21 Jul 20 at 08:41
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - sooty123
and you
>> will crash into a truck at the bottom of porlock hill.

A steep hill in Somerset, save anyone else looking it up.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Clk Sec
>> and you will crash into a truck at the bottom of porlock hill.
>>
>> A steep hill in Somerset, save anyone else looking it up.

... And another in Somerset, Monks Hill. could be of a bit of a stinker if your brakes aren't working too well.


 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Duncan
>>
>> Having said that, I will get mine done in the Beemer, because the car will
>> bleat at me to get it done.

Where will you take it to get it done?

Have you blown Cobham out?
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Zero
>> Where will you take it to get it done?
>>
>> Have you blown Cobham out?

There is no way any car of mine is going anywhere near that place. There are, apparently two good BMW Indies, one in Leatherhead, t'other in Camberley.

I'll let the camberley mob have a crack, they only charge 46 quid for a brake fluid change and reset.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 21 Jul 20 at 10:45
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - stan10
" .. I'll let the camberley mob have a crack .."

I'm going back 4-5 years, but If Camberley isn't too far for you, maybe these people are in range ? They were recommended to me when i had my BMW (unreported on this forum - sorree), by two professionals from different respected sectors, but no more info, because they would both certainly have got, or get, the heave-ho for "whistle blowing" !.

I never actually needed these guys services, (my 5 series was the best/easiest/most logical car i have ever DIY'd) but a good friend had an ongoing prob with his 3 series, he took it to them, and they sorted it first time, He kept it two more years, then passed it on to a family member for another couple of years and the problem never reappeared.

Like i said, never used them myself so no direct connection, and definitely no idea of their current prices, but might be worth a phone call ??

www.kmautotechnics.co.uk/

 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Zero

>> Like i said, never used them myself so no direct connection, and definitely no idea
>> of their current prices, but might be worth a phone call ??
>>
>> www.kmautotechnics.co.uk/

Hmmm, I could take the push bike and spend the day in Windsor.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - legacylad
I wouldn’t know where to start, so hoping to learn something from this thread.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - sooty123
I'm surprised you took it back to the same place. Take it to an indy and just ask them to change the fluid.

Lots of places are reluctant to change the fluid because it can turn into a right faff.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - No FM2R
>>I'm surprised you took it back to the same place.

Maybe I misread, but I thought it was two different places?
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Clk Sec
>> Maybe I misread, but I thought it was two different places?

Pretty sure it was...

I had the Sportage in mind as a replacement for my current barge, but I'm not so sure now.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Fullchat
it was two different places I couldnt bring myself to go to the first despite the fact thats it would have been £50 cheaper (Internet fixed price booking) and the Dealership Manager assured me that if I contact him in advance he would ensure that the service was conducted 'properly.
Do you know what? Having been caught out once he may well have done that.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Fullchat
"Have you chosen your preferred method for making them regret this?"

Mark I went down this route last year and its a brick wall. The dealership wont publicly accept any wrong doing and it becomes a battle of wills. Trading Standards now have a call centre drop down menu firewall so they are disinterested and un-approachable.
I did achieve a refund but when you look at time and effort invested + they refunded money which they they didn't actually provide any service for they didn't really loose out.
Someone from this forum, I apologise as I've lost the email trail and your name escapes me for the minute, has a contact high up within Kia. He informed them of the circumstances on my behalf. The response was fairly non committal and corporate. As the matter had been resolved to my satisfaction they did not see what my issue was.
So its a 'strongly worded' letter again to the dealership.
I did dip the oil on my checkover yesterday prior to leaving the dealership. The engine had been running. It was black. Issue with diesels is the oil gets contaminated very quickly so its hard to say. But you doubt the whole process.
If this behaviour is their business practice who knows what has and has not been done. They may look at the low mileage, service history and wheel it straight in and out without doing a thing. Minimal risk.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 21 Jul 20 at 11:09
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Bill Payer
The trouble with servicing is so much of it is unseen. I'm sure one of our cars wasn't touched one service - it was even still parked at the same jaunty angle that I left it in when I went to pick it up.

And if the dealer changed the diesel fuel filter on wife's Tiguan at its last service then I'll eat my hat. Not a mark on the screws, the dust on the cover was intact and unstained. It'd only done 20K miles so probably doesn't matter and I'm sure they'd say their technicians are super-careful and work 'cleanly'.

I just regard it as buying a stamp in the book. Often they'd be as well leaving the car alone.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - God
I recently forked out £266 for little more than an oil and filter change on my Subaru at a pain dealer.

I wouldn't mind so much (I know they check other things etc.) but they overfilled the oil by quite some margin.

Stuff main dealers in future, I thought the one I went to in Devon was better than that, and howl's about the pollen filter that should have been changed this time!

A good indie is the way to go, I have one that I've used many times before, but they are in Feock which is a lovely part of the world, but quite some way from here.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - God
>>I wouldn't mind so much (I know they check other things etc.) but they overfilled the oil by quite some margin.

"Hi Mr God,
I apologise for not replying before as I did receive the first email and did at that time speak to the technician at the time to make sure it does not happen again, I understand you not wanting to drive back to remove the oil so if you have costs to remove some of it localally please tell me next time you come in and I will reimburse you off your next invoice.

Sorry for any inconvenience

Regards

Mervyn"

*** motor works

= Blarney.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Fullchat
Its a very very expensive stamp Bill.

I'm still chewing the fat as to my next move. I want to make it count.

The question has to be asked, 'How many consecutive brake fluid changes are being missed over the life of the vehicle and at what point could it have an impact?'

From Kia's point of view, 'How many Kias are involved in collisions due to brake fade/failure?' or 'How many warranty claims are there for ABS failure due to fluid not been changed?'

Therein lies the answer. Very few, so Kia are not at risk.

What is the risk to Kia? How do you prove historically that brake fluid changes have not been completed as per the service schedule? Although degrading fluid will probably give service for 7 years without issue.

Of course this just not apply to Kia. Its relevant to all manufacturers.

Once you've gone through the above process, as a profit making business in a cut throat world, you've almost justified not doing the work because there is little chance of it coming back to bite you.



Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 22 Jul 20 at 11:33
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - zippy
I must admit to being impressed by the Toyota dealer that serviced Miss Zs Aygo, though at £250 not cheap.

Full video available of it on the ramp.

Video of the oil and filters being changed, pads being inspected and video of the screw right on the edge of the near side back tyre!

Mind you the price for a decent replacement was within a couple of quid of a discount tyre place.

Miss Z wanted to go for the budget tyre but I persuaded her that they are the things that keep her on the road so don’t skimp.
Last edited by: zippy on Wed 22 Jul 20 at 11:44
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Fullchat
That's just reminded me I got a very brief video of my vehicle on a ramp with someone telling me the vehicle was fine and the health check had not revealed any issues. However you could hardly here the commentary due to the music in the background. Id share the link but it shows my VRM.
It did invite a response to the video so I've added a little something :)

I know that some places do give a quality walk around. On this case its smoke and mirrors. Bit like the clean and wash before collection. Creating an illusion.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 22 Jul 20 at 12:07
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - bathtub tom
I know of two cases of boiling brake fluid causing brake failure, both decades ago in the days when no-one ever bothered about replacing it.
Both cases were caused by a sticky caliper holding a pad against the disc. Who knows if it would have happened anyway, or the brakes would have failed in some other way with clean brake fluid.

I do wonder if the current regime of replacing the stuff every two or three years is worth it.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - VxFan
>> I do wonder if the current regime of replacing the stuff every two or three years is worth it.

Every 2 yrs on a Vauxhall. Something like £50 to change it, which works out at approx. £2 a month. Not a lot really for peace of mind motoring.

Generally there are tell tale signs they've changed it.
Brake reservoir cap looks clean. ok, they could have given it a wipe.
Dust covers on bleed nipples look like they've been touched. ok, they could have given them a wipe too.
Clean brake fluid in the reservoir, and topped up to the max mark. ok, they could have just syphoned out the old fluid and just changed the brake fluid in the reservoir.
Down to trust at the end of the day, but I've found there is a noticeable difference with the brake pedal afterwards.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Bill Payer
>> I do wonder if the current regime of replacing the stuff every two or three
>> years is worth it.
>>
Apparently in the US most manufacturers don't routinely change brake fluid - they test it.

I've seem some argue that testing it by dipping the reservoir is pointless, it should be tested at the caliper. The Indie I use for my Merc tests it and it always seems to be amber. He reckons max time is 4yrs.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - henry k
>> Apparently in the US most manufacturers don't routinely change brake fluid - they test it.
>>
>> I've seem some argue that testing it by dipping the reservoir is pointless,
>> it should be tested at the caliper.
>> The Indie I use for my Merc tests it and it always seems to be amber.
>> He reckons max time is 4yrs.
>>
I have a tester that I dip in the reservoir. I will test again like I did last summer :-(
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Bromptonaut
>> I know of two cases of boiling brake fluid causing brake failure, both decades ago
>> in the days when no-one ever bothered about replacing it.

Around 2002 we were on holiday in France on a site just before the start of the climb to Alpe d'Huez - one of the most famous of the Tour de France's climbs. Another Brit in same site coming back from the village had significant fade on a relatively modern Astra. First time they'd taken a car to France.

They were OK and car was flat bedded to (I think) Grenoble for repair. He had to find his way out of the city and back solo in a LHD hire car.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - bathtub tom
>>Another Brit in same site coming back from the village had significant fade on a relatively modern Astra.

If it was fade, then the brakes just overheated (I've experienced that coming down Porlock). It feels like someone's put a brick under the brake pedal.
When the fluid boils, the pedal hits the floor.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Bromptonaut
>> If it was fade, then the brakes just overheated (I've experienced that coming down Porlock).
>> It feels like someone's put a brick under the brake pedal.
>> When the fluid boils, the pedal hits the floor.

As I understood the driver, who we spoke to on the site later in the day, the pedal became spongy and had increased movement for little/no braking action. The diagnosis that it was a fluid issue came from the French mechanic who attended.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Bill Payer
>> That's just reminded me I got a very brief video of my vehicle on a
>> ramp with someone telling me the vehicle was fine and the health check had not
>> revealed any issues.

On the Tiguan at 3yrs, 18K miles, the mechanic flashed past the front suspension console bushes and commented "starting to tear". Not mentioned when they did the MOT or on the service paperwork.

There was much huffing and puffing when I said "as the car's still under warranty, change them". I imagine the mechanic got his backside kicked. Funnily enough didn't get a video next service.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - Fullchat
I didn't mention it in my original post but I was a little suspicious of the colour of the oil when I did my check and found the brakes had not been bled. It was black. I know diesel oil turns black extremely quickly but never the less this was well black.
So the following day I took off the under body tray which in itself revealed it had probably not been off. What certainly had not been off was the sump plug. However I know that some outfits drain by suction through the dipstick. Further exploration around the oil filter housing (cartridge filter) was not quite so revealing but still suspicious. I have an oil pump so I extracted a sample of oil and delivered it to one of those oil sampling places. The result.

*** 5w30 *** suspected missed oil change *** IRON LEVELS APPEAR HIGH, POTENTIALLY INDICATING LINER WEAR. OTHER WEAR READINGS
ARE WITHIN TOLERANCE. SILICON IS HIGH AND MAY INDICATE EITHER SEAL WEAR, OR DIRT INGRESS. HOWEVER THE VISCOSITY
APPEARS A LITTLE LOW AND APPROXIMATELY 2% FUEL DILUTION IS DETECTED. READINGS INDICATE THE OIL WAS NOT CHANGED.

Today I spent some time with the Group General Service Manager discussing and coming to an agreement whilst my oil was being changed. He informed me his intention was to conduct a 'disciplinary ' with the technician and my evidence was conclusive.

What I don't understand is that when they got rumbled for the brake fluid and it went back into the workshop the Technician didn't have a prick of conscience and realising they had been rumbled use the opportunity to sort the oil out. Touch of arrogance and stupidity.

Kia Customer Services seemed quite indifferent and pushed the onus back to the Dealership. Again I'm surprised that they seemed somewhat ambivalent to the the potential damage exposure of these practices could do to the brand. But I was probably dealing with someone whose job description includes batting off complaints at all odds.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - No FM2R
>>Today I spent some time with the Group General Service Manager discussing and coming to an agreement whilst my oil was being changed. He informed me his intention was to conduct a 'disciplinary ' with the technician and my evidence was conclusive.

So his point is that the dealership is shocked by the behaviour of this technician who has performed in this way off his own back.

Let us assume that I believe that. I therefore assume that his line manager will be as a minimum disciplined and probably demoted as having shown himself as incapable of managing the day to day performance of his staff?

I also assume that the Quality Manager who is supposed to perform periodic audits will also be disciplined for failing to detect this?

etc. etc.

I entirely support you in your endeavours. It is a pity that the Dealership has simply decided to throw a technician under a bus. They should be ashamed of themselves. But they won't be.

I wish that a) they had done it to me and that b) I had the skill and wherewithal to have spotted and proved it. And the determination to pursue it.

Now, if you can just nail a manager, supervisor or quality manager along with the poor b****** technician, that'll be a job well done.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 30 Jul 20 at 23:20
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - Fullchat
Do I really believe him? Let me give that a moments thought. Platitudes. That sort of behaviour in the workshops is sanctioned higher up. I just wonder how many people are driving round having been looked after by the nice people in reception and a lovely wash and vac with actually sod all or little done to their vehicles.
Have I received adequate remuneration for time and effort putting my case together? Probably not considering where they stand criminally but its a tall brick wall, they know it and exploit it.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - No FM2R
You're quite right, of course.

It's akin to being offered the choice between blue pill and the red pill in The Matrix.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - Fullchat
I may be repeating myself :S

When I put my brake bleeding issue, or lack of, to the Service Manager on the day he agreed to change the fluid for my 'peace of mind.'

Would you not have thought that at that point he would have gone and had a look, realised they'd been rumbled, and asked the technician, "What else have you skimped on you muppet? That old t**t out there has been on his back and spotted the lack of bleeding." Then made some attempt to fix it and avoid potential embarrassment to themselves and their employers. Damage limitation. "Sorry mate for some reason we have missed your oil change we thought it was the intermediate service." Or some excuse but it gets them out of jail, so to speak.

But nope total indifference. So perhaps the Service Manager's loyalty should be questioned in allowing the deceit to perpetuate. But that's assuming the whole chain of command actually care.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 31 Jul 20 at 01:14
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - No FM2R
It is quite depressing, isn't it.

I've often said in business that I can understand someone lying to me but I cannot deal with them treating me like I'm stupid.

I think that people like your idiots would have learned that lesson in life. Even my children learned when a pathetic excuse was going to save face and get us all out of the situation.

I think the most depressing thought out of the sorry whole thing is that they will have learned nothing from their experience with you.

They'll just carry on, each time assuming that the next guy is an idiot, until inevitably it will all happen again.

However, their industry, like the industry of so many other pss-taking b******s, is dying. And mostly it is dying because they've been so awful for so long, that nobody cares about them.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - zippy
You get these lax (for want off a more damning word) attitude too often.

I won’t eat some food products supplied to major supermarkets after having visited the factory and had need to use the washrooms!

It’s the managements’ fault. They put up hygiene posters and think that is all that is required!
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - smokie
I don't have a lot of experience with them, but I find generally the front office staff in main dealers (and I'm thinking of a particular Ford one locally amongst others) are often an arrogant breed, as are some of the salesman. I feel that they take can great pleasure in giving bad news about an unexpected cost, and tend to patronise you.

Having said that I can think of two who are very different - my current Vauxhall place (Bellingers @ Wantage) being one of them. I wouldn't say they bend over backwards for you but then they don't expect to be able to bend you over either - which is fine for me - they do the job at the agreed price and that's what one expects.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - R.P.
BMW dealer Halliwell Jones, show videos of your car being tinkered with as do the Volvo dealer I use. Not something I've ever watched so it may not show the nitty gritty of what goes on.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - Fullchat
You are right Smokie. I find the women a bit 'clucky'. Talk too fast as if they are only focused on the straight up and down standard service booking. Dont want you to speak. Anything else is hassle.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 31 Jul 20 at 10:22
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - sooty123
>> You are right Smokie. I find the women a bit 'clucky'. Talk too fast as
>> if they are only focused on the straight up and down standard service booking. Dont
>> want you to speak. Anything else is hassle.

I would imagine so, they want lots of easy high markup stuff. Oil and filters, disc and pad changes etc, anything that ties up a ramp for too long without a known time they just try and bin it off. As you say too much hassle.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - R.P.
Anything else is hassle.

Used the Haliwell Jones BMW dealer for quite a few years with different cars. They've gone down this road now as well. All gone down the road you mention now. The actual service staff at the Conwy branch are great to deal with and knowledgeable. We'll have to be using them again soon when Mrs RP goes there with her 330i.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - sooty123
But nope total indifference. So perhaps the Service Manager's loyalty should be questioned in allowing
>> the deceit to perpetuate. But that's assuming the whole chain of command actually care.
>>

I doubt they are remotely bothered, the bloke on tools will no doubt be on a bonus to get the car off the ramp quicker than the recommended time, no doubt the manager turns a blind eye and is fully aware of what's going on.
The PH thread on car dealers was/is a good place to get a look into how those think who work in a main dealer.
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - Bobby
It’s back to the ratio thing.

You checked their work and went back. How many do you think do that? 1/100? 1/1000? Whatever it is, the low rate justifies their strategy carrying on conning customers knowing that every so often they will need to deal with a complaint.

Did you go to trading standards?
 KIA Sportage - Brakes Bled or Not. Part 2 - Continued - Fullchat
All you get now is a centralised call centre with drop down menus and all the advice you need to complete a 'strongly worded letter'.
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