OK, been up to Sheffield today for another of Miss B's Uni open days.
Left Northampton at around 09:15 in rapidly worsening rain; beyond Leicester we were driving in downpour conditions with every vehicle in it's own cloud of spray.
What lighting would be appropriate?
I have my own answers but I'd be interested in the team's views on (a) use of rear 'fogs' and (b) the variation in visibility of other vehicles. On (b) it was the 09 Focus whose correctly illuminated but near invisible rear lights that got me but several other models were also very easy to loose in their cloud.
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i use rear fogs if i feel some dozzo behind is travelling too near for safety (is you that man ?)
i always turn them off when i have a rearguard driver of similar mentality to me who wants to complete their journey with all limbs and wings intact and who understands that falling rain spells danger
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I don't like rear fogs, because they mask brake lights and give you less time to react. If the conditions are that bad then i'd reluctantly accept them, but it is reluctant. At night I think they are a big 'no-no' unless it is very thick fog.
What amazes me though are the number of Hamptons who drive along simply on side lights. What possesses anyone to think 'Oh the weathers bad, better put the candle on then', they might as well not bother.
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Obviously dipped headlights for the front, front fogs of no use in daytime and only create additional glare for those in front.
Normal rear lights should be adequate but as Brompton has noted some rear lights seem to be more decorative than useful, particularly some LED's and especially those poorly customised heaps where Barry painted the lights with black smoke finish.
If cars in front of me were becoming difficult to see through such heavy spray i might be tempted to use my rear fogs depending on just how good my own lights are...haven't used them in anger for many years, can't remember the last time.
I'd rather not use them as the glare from 21w bulbs diminishes the way similarly bulbed stop lights stand out.
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In that situation I would use full (dipped) headlights. Rear foglights I only use in a 'pea souper' fog, as they are so intense they just blind people in anything less dense.
I also use full headlamps on dark mornings when the sun is just coming up. My car's dark blue, so I figure it must be pretty invisible without lights, and IMO sidelights aren't really enough.
The is a lot of variation in the intensity of rear lights among cars now, I find that some of the LED lights are getting too bright, almost like a fog lamp, although I actually like the newer BMW rear lamps, they give the cars a classy ambience. You would have thought a modern Focus would have fairly bright rear lamps, considering they are now located higher on the body.
Oh, and in bad rain, driving at a steady speed and keeping a large gap between you and the car in front seems sensible, although I'm sure this has been discussed umpteen times...
Last edited by: corax on Sun 3 Oct 10 at 22:10
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Drove from Leicester to Milton Keynes and back on Friday afternoon - in rain varying from heavy to torrential. I had dipped headlights on but not foglights. I had a slight height advantage as I was in a 7.5 tonner, sitting above the waist-high fug generated by heavy traffic - I wouldn't have enjoyed the journey at all in a car.
A handful of vehicles had their rear fogs on, but none of them were in positions or conditions where they were needed. IMO they simply add to the jumble of information presented to (as mentioned in another thread) more cossetted, less able drivers.
I thought fog lights were "warning" lights, not "marker" lights, and thus should be used selectively when there is a risk the following vehicle may not be able to see you, and turned off when that risk subsides.
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Just remembered had a front headlight bulb go on the truck i used Friday, luckily it's got decent front fogs so used them without the single dipped headlight.
See there is a reason for having front fogs.
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officer....................
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I don't have any problems with other cars front fogs, day or night.
I think rear fogs should be banned at night.
The only time I've used my rear fog has been in daylight, heavy spray on a motorway when I've lost sight of the car in front.
I've switched my front fogs on a couple of times to see what they do, couldn't see the point of them, so switched them off again.
I recall an M4 journey in monsoon conditions. You know, when one front wheel, then the other gets in the trough of water worn by trucks. I was behind a large truck with high rear lights doing 40 in the inside lane. I assumed that as he was much higher than me, he could see better above the spray. I could clearly see his lights from a safe distance. SWMBO was wanting me to stop on the hard shoulder!!!! I let him lead on until the conditions improved.
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i think cars should have a flashing LED cluster on the rear when its raining like button and chums do on wet sunday afternoons
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Swmbo had to go to daughter's in Stockport when all that water was cpming down.
I promptly banned her from going on the M60. She doesn't like M way driving, particularly where lanes merge and cross each other, as where the M56 comes in.
If things are really bad, I usually sit some distance behind a truck as well and let him show me the road.....keeping a good eye on what's happening behind.
I I'd been out on the bike in today's rain, I might have stopped on the hard shoulder under a bridge. I've done it before. I think you can be in a very dangerous position with only one light showing. Rather a ticket than being splattered !
Ted
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If the spray is really bad then I'll use rear foglights in daylight - you can tell when it's a good idea from looking at the vehicles in front of you - if their 'normal' rear lights don't stand out at a reasonable distance then you need something brighter.....
I rarely use rear foglights at night because the increased contrast means that normal rear lights are sufficient and (as others have commented) don't dazzle.
By choice I only use front foglights in fog and then with dipped headlights to provide the front markers (see comments about people who think sidelights are sufficient). IIRC some cars e.g. from VAG have a switch which means that to show rear fogs you have to have the fronts illuminated, a poor compromise IMHO, BMW allow you to choose which you switch on.
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If visibility is really bad (day or night) I use every light the car has. If that annoys a few people, tough, at least they have seen me.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 4 Oct 10 at 08:24
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An unusual situation where many people were using "all lights on" was driving south on the M74 into a low morning sun with a clear blue sky. The temperature had been well below zero for over a week, the road was heavily salted and wet, and my and everyone else's screenwashers were frozen, with many cars on the hard shoulder and using snow to clean windscreens. There was the inevitable heavy rear ender with the police in attendance and they were at some risk trying to slow the (light) traffic from its already slow pace. So, beautiful day, low sun, salted windscreen, no washers, dangerous, all lights on.
Last edited by: Webmaster on Wed 6 Oct 10 at 10:05
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I followed a wide load down the A14 away from Catthorpe late one night in similar conditions. The salty road grime being thrown up needed a squirt of screenwash to clear it every 30 seconds, which drained the tank after a few miles. There are no services or exits along that stretch, and every mile-spaced layby for 10 miles was closed for roadworks. The multitude of flashing orange beacons on both the low-loader and the convoy van behind it made it virtually impossible to see anything on the dark road ahead through my dirt-encrusted windscreen, even when I dropped back to some 1/2 a mile behind them. Not pleasant.
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Make mudflaps a legal requirement.
Less spray from a car fitted with them.
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But are cars the problem? Worst spray surely comes from lorries and most trucks over 12 ton GVW have to be fitted with spray suppression equipment, but they still generate vast amounts of spray. At the end of the day all that water being shifted by the tyres has to go somewhere.
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Thanks for the replies so far.
Dipped lights are a given but I'd guess there was about one in 25 on sides. Very difficult to pick out at all. What, if anything, is going through the brain of somebody doing that? Personally I'd never drive on sides even under street lamps, to me they're marker lights for when stopped at the side of the road.
Rear fogs clearly divide opinion here and on the M1 yesterday. On the basis that I was having trouble discerning the shapes in the murk I put mine on. Within minutes I was given the 'full beam in the mirror' response when pulling back over after an overtake. I felt more comfortable when others were using theirs as I could better see where the cars were but I'm not sure the added security was real. It might actually have been easier to read a developing ‘situation’ via brake lights, particularly the high level ones.
In both our cars (Xantia & Berlingo) the fog light options are ‘front’ or ‘front & rear’, no rear only option. PSA standard fit I think.
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>> Dipped lights are a given but I'd guess there was about one in 25 on
>> sides. Very difficult to pick out at all. What, if anything, is going through the
>> brain of somebody doing that?
On these darker mornings I see two or three vehicles at least without lights on my twenty minute journey to work. I've also noticed that people don't seem to flash others without lights anymore. I guess that there are so many now, it's not worth the bother. But some vehicles, especially in dark colours, can be virtually invisible.
I do wonder how their minds work, I suppose I think more about putting my lights on because I'm more interested in driving, obviously other people minds are on something completely different, but if you can't even think about flicking a switch and making yourself visible, take the train or bus.
Last edited by: corax on Mon 4 Oct 10 at 20:00
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The drivers of cars without adequate lights are probably waiting for their automatic lights to do the thinking for them. Never seen the point of auto lights - auto wipers yes, but not lights.
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Don't worry, eventually DRL's will resolve the "no light" problem, on the front of the car anyway. As most no lighters are travelling at warp speed at least we will be able to see them coming. :)
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>> but not lights.
Auto lights rock. I couldn't tell you the last time i had to override them, it was well over a month ago. It gets it right 99% of the time.
It's like thought control "hmmm i'd like some lights on now... oh wow, look at that" :-)
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They don't work in daytime fog.
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>> They don't work in daytime fog.
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Or heavy rain in otherwise good daylight. Mine have caught me out a couple of times like that, you check when you enter a m/way with a load of spray and they're on, then the next time you check the damned things have turned themselves off because it's got a bit brighter.
I bung them on manual now in circs like that, other wise I quite like auto lights.
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I'd guess there was about one in 25 on
>> sides. Very difficult to pick out at all. What, if anything, is going through the
>> brain of somebody doing that? Personally I'd never drive on sides even under street lamps,
>> to me they're marker lights for when stopped at the side of the road.
>>
The Americans, quite correctly, call them "parking lights" and as you say that's all they're good for. Modern ones, being a low-wattage bulb inside a large perspex lens, are virtually useless even for their intended purpose, as the area of reflector makes them virtually invisible in street-lit areas.
Like you, I fail to see why people use them whilst driving. I'm starting to understand why some manufacturers fit automatic headlights; it's to force lazy, stupid and irresponsible drivers to actually be seen at night.
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I have a new Volvo V50 which most will know have dipped fronts on all the time. You can pay a dealer to plug into the laptop and disable this option. This reminds me of a story my brother told me. He recently left his office at night in a Volvo V70 and drove some distance before his handsfree phone rang. It was a friend of his asking why my brother was driving without any lights on, was there a problem? My brother looked at the switch and realised he had not switched them on and did so quickly. He explained that although they were not on, the dash and cluster lights were well lit up and he was in a well lit built up area, dipped lamps would not have been that obvious to the driver. This was because the permanent headlight "on" system had been disabled by the dealer and his previous V70 had not been the same. Complacency I suppose.
Oh, I forgot, this car was a brand new black V70 T5 with batternburg markings all over it and North Wales Traffic Police written on it! Said driver is class one trained!
Sorry Bruv, don't take it out on me............
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I'd like to presume that your brother, as a "professional" driver, did his daily checks before setting off, as they're always exhorting us humble lorry drivers to do? Had that been the case he'd have sussed out the lights.
Do as I say, not as I do, as usual....
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My last Accord was like this, dash lit all the time.
You would not drive it at night with headlights off as the daylight sretting for the dash is so bright it dazzles you in the dark. Putting the headlights on dims the lights
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>> My last Accord was like this, dash lit all the time.
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Original Leon had this feature (well, mine did anyway) and it didn't dim perceptibly on turning the headlights on - with the result that I once got half a mile from a filling station in a well-lit area one night before some kindly soul going the other way flashed me.
Certainly taught me to pay more attention after that.
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Dipped headligts - no foglights.
The difference between spray and fog is that if there is spray you KNOW there is something there, in fog you don't.
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>> Dipped headligts - no foglights.
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>> The difference between spray and fog is that if there is spray you KNOW there
>> is something there, in fog you don't.
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Many drivers are not bright enough to realise there is something in front of them if they can only see spray, and slower traffic needs to see you through their own spray.
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I use rear fogs only if I can barely see the tail lights of the car in front. Also to annoy people tailgating me, but usually I save up the diesel cack in the exhaust to empty over them.
Don't like the way on some cars the rear fogs effectively cancel out brake lights.
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>> but usually I save up the diesel cack in the exhaust to empty over them.
Oh I thought that was only me. Deeply satisfying isn't it ? I do miss that option on the Qashqai, it has one of those confounded DPF thingummys. No matter how brutally you rev the engine it emits only delicately perfumed and invisible fresh air apparently. The old Mondeo conversely has always been able to expel a thick cloud of black soot on demand if the situation requires. I like to hit the rear screenwasher simultaneously ( approximately mid cloud ) when being tailgated, especially if there are plenty of smearable insects about.
Prudence of course demands that one reserves such actions for occasions when there is plenty of room to accelerate away and is best not employed when approaching potentially changing traffic lights lest it lead to unpleasantness...
:-)
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Ah, smoking the blighters out...the Volvo FL's were very good for this if someone needed to be taught a severe lesson, you could hold down the accelerator pedal with the exhaust brake on and the mother of all smoke screens could be produced for as long as needed..so i'm told.
And She Who Must still misses the Volvo 940 td estate, in richened mode (half a turn on the fuelling screw, those were the days for Diesel) a full bore first gear take off smoke out could cover your escape quite effectively.
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Motorway, Spray and Lights - Bellboy
