I am about to enter my first winter with the 330Ci Convertible. Obviously it will be useless in snow, much like the majority of other cars on the road!
What is the general consensus of opinion re fitting a set of the above? My future intended lives at altitude and her company car, an Insignia, will struggle where she lives, but it would be nice to get through to her house, which I struggled to do last year.
I live in N Ribblesdale and she in the wilds circa 1000ft in West Yorks, so inclement weather is anticipated!
Would a £500+ investment in winter boots & steel wheels make a huge difference?
Any advice gratefully received.
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If you think it's going to be snow mixed with ice in the damp UK, go for the smallest wheel rims combined with skinniest tyres BMW recommend for your car. H rated tyre will be more than enough provided you inform your your insurance co. and why you've fitted them unless you think you need a 130+mph run up to your better half's place.
Last edited by: gmac on Fri 22 Oct 10 at 00:07
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"Would a £500+ investment in winter boots & steel wheels make a huge difference?
Any advice gratefully received."
I'll relate my experience from last year, which might help. We had a severe winter in Poland last year but for some reason I didn't change to snow tyres until two weeks into the snow, I think I was probably too busy or something. For most of that time the Peugeot 406 was just about adequate on all season tyres. But it was really obvious that everyone else was on winter tyres, for example, I couldn't get away from the lights like everyone else, I couldn't brake for speed humps and then pull away again like everyone else, I was getting in the way and people were starting to tailgate me. Then I got stuck on a flat road and had to get the guys behind to push me out. Then I got stuck again on an unmade road at a friend's house and it took several lads to get me out.
Then I changed to winters and the difference was so enormous that you'll think I'm exaggerating. You have about 80-90% of normal grip, you have to deliberately fool around to break traction. After Christmas we headed south to the mountains for a week's skiing and that's where they were simply outstanding. I drove up and down narrow lanes and tracks that were so steep and snow-packed that I had to take a deep breath but it never came close to struggling. The big test though was the lodge we stayed at. The driveway was about 3-4 cars long and in that distance it dropped below road level by about my height. So it was well steep. Every morning there was fresh snow and every morning I made it out - not easily, sometimes it took three or four attempts at reversing right back and then gunning it (and I had to have my wife on look-out because I had to time it with gaps in the traffic) but it made it eventually - a car that had previously been stuck on a flat road.
A lot is said about countries with severe winters being better prepared but my experiences over the last seven years lead me to believe that it's all down to winter tyres. They plough the big roads in Poland but they aren't fanatically about it like you'd believe, they don't clear residential roads so much. It's all about personal responsibility. Not having winter tyres over here is almost as anti-social as drink-driving. I could hear the cursing from the guys who were digging me out when I got stuck and they constantly berate offenders on news programmes. A FWD car on winter tyres will go anywhere, we'll see how I get on this year with RWD and a heavy car but I wouldn't even drive it out of the garage till it's got its winter boots on.
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a 4x4 vehicle on in appropriate tyres won't be as good as a FWD or RWD on rear tyres either. The all weather tyres go too hard for them to have traction in the cold weather.
But in the UK we don't normally have such cold weather for long enough to have warranted the switch.
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"But in the UK we don't normally have such cold weather"
I hear that every year and yet every year, the comedy item at the end of Polish news reports is pictures of stranded UK motorists in 2 cm of snow. We've had a few winters recently with no snow at all, but people still fit the tyres because nobody wants to get stuck even if it's only for one day.
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>> But in the UK we don't normally have such cold weather for long enough to
>> have warranted the switch.
>>
It's not just snow and ice that winter tyres are good in. They are also excellent in the wet. Your all rounder tyres actually start to harden at 7C and below.
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Lots of "winter" days in the UK are above 7c, so what would be the impact of cruising up and down the motorways on milder winter days with winter tyres on - would the wear be excessive?
Alternatively I have a “dog” car that covers very few miles and I have thought of putting winters on this and leaving them on all year – again would they just wear away on hot summer days?
MPZ
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BBD's account is fascinating, but prompts one objection from me. He shows us that in Poland it's bad form to be the one who gets stuck and holds up everyone else who has the right tyres. But relocate that to the UK - or perhaps more correctly, England - and the people getting stuck and holding up the winter tyred drivers would be everyone else! LL might be OK on deserted roads out in the wilds, but the rest of us would be just as stuck behind the first 330Ci or Range Rover Sport to have skewed sideways across a mild incline.
It's a bit like the herd immunity argument for mass vaccination: if everyone does it, everyone benefits, but the more individuals don't bother, the more the whole group suffers.
I'd guess that the percentage of cars in southeast England that have a set of winter tyres is a low single digit, or even a decimal. Without a compelling reason to change - presumably legislation or the kind of insurance requirement we hear of from Germany - that's how it'll stay, and while it does, the worst obstacle on winter roads won't be snow or ice, it'll be stranded cars.
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There are many cars in Germany that only run on winter tyres all year round with no wear issues, as people do not want the expense of sets of wheels and tyres.
Caveat I would attach to that is the road surfaces here appear to be less abrasive than the UK in my own experience.
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I'm really torn on this one. I've had a lot of expenses lately so finances are a very tight. OTOH, I suffered badly last winter from not being able to use the car when we had the snow.
Unfortunately I'd have to use the BMW dealer scheme to get winter tyres, because I have nowhere to store the unused set of wheels. (And let's be honest, I don't want a set of ugly wheels on the car for 4-5 months)
BMW dealers quotes for a set of wheels & tyres (plus storage of the other set) are exorbitant IMHO. About grand for a 3-series and 1500 for a 5-series! Sorry, but that is well serious wonga for me at the moment.
I'd feel a mug spending that kind of money and then finding that I didn't need it. OTOH, if we do have snow, then I know that I'll wish that I had gotten winter tyres.
Aaargh! Indecision! Indecision!
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"BMW dealers quotes for a set of wheels & tyres (plus storage of the other set)... About a grand"
That's outrageous. Forget the steel wheels and just change and store the tyres?
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On the XF Forum site, there is a news article about Kwik Fit offering a tyre storage service.
www.xfforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4312
Probably cheaper than going to a dealer.
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>> There are many cars in Germany that only run on winter tyres all year round
>> with no wear issues, as people do not want the expense of sets of wheels
>> and tyres.
I have just replaced two front tyres - Michelin M+S - and I observe that grip in the dry is not nearly as good in the dry as it is with the budget new "Summer" ones.
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>> I have just replaced two front tyres - Michelin M+S - and I observe that
>> grip in the dry is not nearly as good in the dry as it is
>> with the budget new "Summer" ones.
... by which I mean that the grip provided by "Mud &Snow" tyres is nowhere near as good as that afforded by "ordinary" Summer ones.
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>> Lots of "winter" days in the UK are above 7c, so what would be the
>> impact of cruising up and down the motorways on milder winter days with winter tyres
>> on - would the wear be excessive?
>>
>> Alternatively I have a “dog” car that covers very few miles and I have thought
>> of putting winters on this and leaving them on all year – again would they
>> just wear away on hot summer days?
>>
No to both, apparently. I have a Merc and don't fit them myself but several Mercedes forum members do. One reported running winter tyres year round and got 40K miles out of a set, which is exceptional on a Mercedes.
Proper winter tyres have 10mm of tread depth then new and, where legally required, cease to qualify as winter tyres when worn to 4mm. I would imagine most people in the UK could get 2-3 years out of a set if using them year-round.
As BBD suggests, MB owners comment on the difference being "night and day" between summer and winter tyres.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Fri 22 Oct 10 at 13:05
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>>>Proper winter tyres have 10mm of tread depth then new and, where legally required, cease to qualify as winter tyres when worn to 4mm.
Ahh that's why I've noted quite a few pairs/sets of winter tyres on ebay with 4-5mm tread remaining. They're selling the no longer legal ones from europe.
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Some excellent posts and i agree with the difference between the two being night and day, not just in snow but in cold and freezing rain where the tyres really come into their own, BBD's post should convince the most cynical that they really are worth having.
I kept to the same tyre sizes as per the summer set...225/45 x 17V and never once struggled, with the bonus of the quieter more compliant ride, same story with the pick up which has it's own winter set.
I wouldn't go to the expense of steel wheels or subject such a nice car to the indignity of them, i'd find a used set of suitably sized alloys on the net, assuming you are keeping the car for a few years to get the use from them.
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On the price thing, the BMW deal is pretty reasonable for what you're getting. OEM alloys (with the exception of those totally inappropriate for road use, super light weight racetrack wheels they fitted to the 3er a couple of years ago that cracked if they even so much as looked at a pothole...) are very high quality i.e. BBS levels of quality.
The tyres are brand name.
For my own example, you couldn't put together a comparable package DIY from online vendors for less. There's also the far superior BMW warranty on the wheels.
But... if money's tight, dropping in for a chat at the local tyre place should get you a deal ~£8 a corner for tyre change, balance & valve. Separately sourcing part worn tyres, despite all the warnings, is probably fine. I would just inspect them really closely for anything out of the ordinary before handing over cash.
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>> On the price thing, the BMW deal is pretty reasonable for what you're getting. OEM
>> alloys (with the exception of those totally inappropriate for road use, super light weight racetrack
>> wheels they fitted to the 3er a couple of years ago that cracked if they
>> even so much as looked at a pothole...) are very high quality i.e. BBS levels
>> of quality.
>>
>> The tyres are brand name.
>>
>> For my own example, you couldn't put together a comparable package DIY from online vendors
>> for less. There's also the far superior BMW warranty on the wheels.
>>
As a money no object solution why not ? If you think about it though, you are paying £1500 for a set of top notch wheels to put on a car at the worst time of year where they will get caked in salt and whatever other chemicals are thrown down, shot blasted by gritters. Some other driver may slide into your car damaging the wheels.
I would rather keep an expensive set of wheels for the summer and have something passable for winter use.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 23 Oct 10 at 19:51
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>> I would rather keep an expensive set of wheels for the summer and have something passable for winter use.
Why not go the whole hog and put steelies on for winter?
It's a BMW, not an, erm... Skoda ;-)
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>> It's a BMW, not an, erm... Skoda ;-)
>>
Does the BMW lane get special treatment in the winter ? I think we should be told. :-)
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>>BMW dealers quotes for a set of wheels & tyres (plus storage of the other set) are exorbitant IMHO. About grand for a 3-series and 1500 for a 5-series! >>
Presumably less if you store yourself? Do the winter wheels and tyres become yours or are they on loan for the course of the winter?
If the former then say £200 for the storage, £800 for a set of wheels and tyres is not too bad.
How much for a 1 Series?
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>> Presumably less if you store yourself? Do the winter wheels and tyres become yours or
>> are they on loan for the course of the winter?
>>
The wheels/tyres are yours, but BMW insist on keeping the unused set of wheels "safe" for you. :-)
>> If the former then say £200 for the storage, £800 for a set of wheels
>> and tyres is not too bad.
>>
You are obviously more well-off than I am! :-) When I get rid of the 320d, I'd have to dispose of a spare set of wheels as well. The buyer may not be interested in taking them as part of a package deal. Then I have the hassle of selling them on fleabay.
>> How much for a 1 Series?
>>
The dealership that I went to were quoting "from £600".
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Daughter, who lives and works in the Pennines, bought a new Mini this year. It came on steel wheels, but we bought a set of as-new alloys from an auction site. So, in September, I ordered a set of Vredestein Snowtraks from Camskills. These tyres have good reviews and not too expensive, and there's not a huge choice in 15" Mini size. Anyway, they're out of stock with no firm delivery date. Camskills think it could be January before they arrive! So, if you're thinking of buying winter tyres, maybe think about ordering now for winter 2011/12.......
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Anyway, they're out of stock with no firm delivery date. Camskills think it
>> could be January before they arrive!
Much as i like Camskills this is getting to be quite regular, they don't update their site when tyres are unavailable, i'm waiting for some to come into stock meself.
Have a nose on Mytyres and return regularly, several times i've picked up good quality tyres at ditchfinder prices, probably mistakenly priced but they have always honoured and i notice the price has risen sharply within a day or so of my purchase.
The C2 won't be getting a winter set nor indeed an all season alternative, it's on 195/45 x 16's (failed to research that properly) and the choice of affordable indeed any winter spec is minimal.....i imagine She Who Must will suddenly need the pick up for shifting her gear the day it snows..;)
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I've been looking around for a set of all year tyres for the C4. Cheapest Vredestein Quatrac 3's I've found so far are 136€/tyre plus fitting for a 1.6 diesel. :-(
Last edited by: gmac on Mon 25 Oct 10 at 20:53
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gmac, and all that mumping and moaning over the BMW price...
£136 a corner for 5 years ago's tread pattern on 10 year's ago rubber technology from an indian owned, russian looted, dutch has-been! :-P
BMW would have added you 4 alloys for not much more than that, and brand name tyres to boot!
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Yeah yeah. Don't travel to Europe this winter, I saw five BMW's today in Munich on steelies. Must have knocked a few quid off the residuals. Oh the shame and in their home city.
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>> BMW would have added you 4 alloys for not much more than that, and brand
>> name tyres to boot!
>>
Just for your benefit and as I need four new tyres I will go to our local BMW dealer in Cologne with the C4 and see what they quote for four BBS alloys (correct offset and four studs for a C4) with Vredestein Quatrac 3's. Will you donate the difference to a charity of my choice for Xmas ? I will reciprocate if BMW come in under.
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I'm not blaming Camskills, GB. If Vredestein UK can't supply Camskills, Camskills can't supply me. If the manufacturer doesn't have winter tyres in stock by the end of October, it's a bit daft, if you ask me.
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I sat on my fingers all last winter during the discussions about winter tyres, but I can't do it any longer.
I simply cannot believe that tyre manufacturers and designers of a car such as the BMW can't, between them, come up with something that works for both of them in summer and winter.
What makes it worse is people still buy BMW's knowing their inability to cope in bad weather.
However much I liked a BMW I would never buy one knowing I had to faff about changing and storing another set of wheels.
I'd rather learn how to drive in inclement weather properly.
Pat
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>>
>> What makes it worse is people still buy BMW's knowing their inability to cope in
>> bad weather.
>>
I have to ask what makes people think that all BMWs are bad in the snow, mine (with 389lbft torque) was perfectly OK in the snow - it was no 4wd but it was at least as good as my previous fwd Audi (with 'only' 259lbft of torque) and it steered better.
Why might this be so? Oh yes, my 330d had SE spec 17" wheels with 225 section tyres on it. surely the problem is more to do with unnecessarily low profile, over-wide tyres fitted to ride-ruining (and cracking) 'bling' alloys ?
I looked into winter wheels and tyres, on the 330i/d the minimum wheels size is 17" to accommodate the brakes and I couldn't find a supplier for steel wheels so resorting to buying second-hand alloys seemed like a sensible option. In the end I didn't find that I needed to resort to this (in Surrey, might be different if I lived in the Peak District).
As for rwd, the other 360 days of the year when the weather isn't so bad it is so much nicer than fwd on anything with significant power and torque.
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>> I looked into winter wheels and tyres, on the 330i/d the minimum wheels size is
>> 17" to accommodate the brakes and I couldn't find a supplier for steel wheels so
>> resorting to buying second-hand alloys seemed like a sensible option.
Call me eccentric but I tried to get some 16 inch steels for my car as standard, but there is very little choice in this country, so I just went for some later model s/hand alloys in the end as it was just not worth the hassle. America is much better set up for BMW winter drivers. Here is a typical specialist. Just click on wheel and tires in the left hand column then select winter wheels and tires. RWD is no problem with the right tyres and proper driving skills.
www.bavauto.com/shop.asp
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>> What makes it worse is people still buy BMW's knowing their inability to cope in
>> bad weather.
The problem isnt so much the car's, its the drivers.
>>
>> I'd rather learn how to drive in inclement weather properly.
and thereby is the answer!
Hardly anyone knows how to drive in anything but perfect conditions these days...
In my yoof, I used to take my car down the local open air carpark as soon as it snowed.... well, when I wasn't out on my Sport/tourer motorcycle that is.
An no, I never dropped a motorbike on snow or ice.
Last edited by: swiss tony on Tue 26 Oct 10 at 06:11
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>> I simply cannot believe that tyre manufacturers and designers of a car such as the
>> BMW can't, between them, come up with something that works for both of them in
>> summer and winter.
>>
You can get All-Season tyres, but they seem rare here. I noticed when in the US that a lot of ordinary looking tyres for sale there were marked as All-Season.
I can't remember the manufacturer, but one of them has introduced a new tyre for Europe this winter aimed at year-round use.
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How come iffy's not chipping in on this thread, i'm dying to ask him a (light hearted, good) question related to this.
Last edited by: Skoda on Tue 26 Oct 10 at 17:15
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...How come iffy's not chipping in on this thread, i'm dying to ask him a (light hearted, good) question related to this....
Go on then, I'm all ears.
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I have a BMW 520 runs on Good Year Vector four season tyres absolute no problem in the snow or any other type of weather for that matter.
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>> Go on then, I'm all ears.
When are you getting a BMW?
Unfaltering steed though your CC3 is, must be getting close to itch time? I see you got yourself a macbook pro (excellent choice) so i'm thinking you're quite open to the idea of dabbling with something else, just for the experience of it all if nothing else?
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...When are you getting a BMW?...
No time soon, for a few reasons.
I don't desperately want one, I still like the CC3, and then there's the vexatious question of money.
A new or nearly-new BMW is more than I would want to pay for a car, to the point where it's almost unaffordable.
I don't doubt they are good cars, just not for me.
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Go on buy a BMW and then you will a yardstick from which to judge all other cars.
BMW voted the most succesful car manufacturer in the world with the most satisfied customers.Personnally speaken my 520 is superb its not new I couldn't afford one but its certainly the best car I have ever driven and I have had many in my time but is does not mean to say my next one will be another BMW.
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>> BMW voted the most succesful car manufacturer in the world with the most satisfied customers.
Interesting. Do you have a link for that? (asked in a friendly manner, BTW)
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>> If the manufacturer doesn't have winter tyres in stock by the end of October, it's
>> a bit daft, if you ask me.
>>
Attn Dieselfitter.
Forgot to mention these fellows, any of these sizes suitable.
tyremen.myshopify.com/collections/winter-tyres?page=2
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 26 Oct 10 at 19:55
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Thanks GB. This lot are also listing the Vredestein Snowtrac 3 in Mini size (in fact it's the only winter tyre they offer in this size), though they are significantly dearer than Camskills. All the same, I'll call them and see if they actually have any in stock.
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BMW - winter wheel & tyre sets - ....
