By that I mean, am I about to do something silly?
Convertible car stored in garage. Garage a single (but a bit longer), detached from the house and not ajoining anything else. Single skin brick construction and a flat felted roof with gravel on the top.
No insulation whatsoever inside it.
In here along with the car is some wine on a rack and a large fridge, large fridge freezer and large freezer, and another small freezer, all operational. Also shelves of car cleaning bits and spare washing up liquids, house cleaning stuff, etc.
I found in my attic some left-over rolls of Thermawrap (foil-lined bubble-wrap) which I had used in my loft in the house (to insulate over the top of the normal insulation with loft boards then being placed on top).
This worked wonders in the house.
I am now contemplating at the least running more thermawrap (or similar) on the underside of the flat roof ceiling joists to try and keep a bit of heat in the garage. I was also going to stick some on the back of the garage door.
I will be looking to rely on an oil fired radiator (with thermostat) to keep the temperature in there just above freezing, but when I did this last year my energy cost went through the roof (literally if I think about it!) just because of this. My electric bill for the hiouse doubled in the time this thing was on. Hence thinking about how best to keep a little heat in here.
Therefore the question is, would this foil insulation cause condensation to form on the inside of the ceiling? Am I being quite mad for another reason? Should I look to stick some glassfibre / similar insulation between the joists and under the foil?
Any other tips?
There are no windows in here. A normal up-and-over door at one end and a thick wooden access door at the other. There are air gaps arround the garage door twixt door and frame. I am not looking to hermetically seal this up particularly.
And as for the car, as I won't be driving it for a few months (broke the gear-box, different story......) what do I do to tuck it up for winter? I have put a breathable car cover over it (keeping the dust off), but do I disconnect the battery? Anything else?
Thanks in advance folks for your normally helpful answers!
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It won't make any significant difference whatsoever, the heat will still be lost through the walls and by draughts. Your oil-filled radiator is what? 1.5KW? Something like that? Let's say 12p/KWh. If it's freezing, 18p*24/day, = £4.32. If you used a storage heater and "Economy 7", perhaps you'd save two pounds a day.
If your garage is suitable, and you want to pay the money, insulate with Jablite and plasterboard, walls, ceiling, door - and the place might not freeze even without heating.
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Why do you need to heat it?
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Forget the plasterboard. Use ply.
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>> large fridge, large fridge freezer and large freezer, and another small freezer, all operational.
I am intrigued that all the above are operational.
www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/wordpress/climate-classes-for-fridges-freezers-and-fridge-freezers/
>> of the ceiling? Am I being quite mad for another reason? Should I look to
>> stick some glassfibre / similar insulation between the joists and under the foil?
>>
As FT says, you will need a lot of insulation. Have you thought about asking David Snell of the Telegraph for DIY advice on this question? :-)
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I wouldn't worry too much, SFD. 'Mine' lives in a garage with lots of draughts, which I haven't attended to because my friends the experts advised that fresh air is a good thing. And it survived minus 10C or worse last winter with no problems at all. It came out regularly as well, when the weather was good enough. They said the worst thing I could do would be to tuck it away for months and I think they were right. Mind you, they don't salt the roads round here.
My good friend and next-door neighbour has an insulated and background-heated garage with a dehumidifier for his two BMW Z3s and he still suffers some mildew problems. Not to mention mice...
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Thanks guys.
Well, without any heating a lot of condensation builds on the fridge / freezer doors, and on all the bottles, cans, jars, pots, etc. Rots the melamine shelves as well. Thinking of the car getting damp, I thought I would do my best to take the edge off the hard winter.
The idea of a damp smelly car with rusty bits where the waxoyl might have missed also made me feel a bit sad :( Spent so much on the ruddy thing, thought I should give her some TLC.
Also the freezing temperatures might not do the wine a lot of good!
The reasons for the excessive number of fridges / freezers is that I don't believe in paying full price for anything if I can help it. If there is a special offer on oh, lets say legs of lamb at the supermarket at 3.99 a kilo, I know that is a good deal and I will buy 5 or 6. Whack them in the freezer and that is the Sunday lunch sorted for a while. I do the same with all other meats, as well as keeping an eye on the 'reduced to clear' sections at the supermarkets. We have a cracking local farmers market too, so amazing Pork and sausages that we get there are bought to last a a few months and frozen.
I also bulk-cook a lot of meals, bolognese sauces, beef goulash, chicken casseroles, etc. I need the fridges to store the bulk of these in, before I then decant these into individual portions to be frozen for me, the wife and our daughter. When I am away on business a proper meal for them is just a microwave away (my wife is not a keen chef!).
I than have a list of what is in what draw in what freezer in the kitchen and we then have a wide choice of tasty stuff to chose from at our hearts content! I do the same with everything else we buy. 1/2 price fabric conditioner? I buy 20 or so bottles, washing up liquid, dishwasher tablet, etc, the same.
Some cheap freezers have not been able to cope with the low outside temperatures but now I have some very good ones bought cheaply as they had transport dents in the front and they seem fine.
I had planned to drive mine over the winter Mike (when dry), but managed to lose gears 2 and 3 (which in a 3 speed auto ain't much fun) meaning a cruise down to the beach is done at a screaming load of revs with a speed of 35mph. Not cool! Will have to get it seen to, but my new Jag spoecialist is setting up business local to me but is not open yet, so it might take a while to get it done.
In the meantime the car is sat there looking a bit sorry for itself, and piling the misery on with a freezing garage seemed cruel.
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...piling the misery on with a freezing garage seemed cruel...
Could be quite a harsh environment for the old girl.
Is there anywhere locally you could limp to in first to store it?
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You have a damp and condensation problem, not a heating problem..
Through drafts needed imo.
We have a large (10mx 7m) garage with lots of draughts , fridge and deep freeze - winter got to -19C last year.. In all our years here, condensation has been minimal..
(three up and over garage doors, all with built in draughts, part insulated roof, no heating)
Edit: your multitude of freezers will all be condesning moisture when cooling and then leaving it to evaporate- making things worse)
Last edited by: madf on Fri 29 Oct 10 at 18:51
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The fridges should help keep the chill off, as they are sucking heat out of the contents and radiating/convecting it back into the garage, hence the black tubing/grille on the back.
I don't really know why freezers are rated for cold surroundings, as the important bit is inside, where it should be -18C. I can understand them having trouble working in high ambient temperatures, but too low..?
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Thanks, CG. I realise that if it's a fridge-freezer with a thermostat in the fridge, then it may misbehave when the ambient temperature approaches the normal inside temperature, but that shouldn't affect a freezer, which has to run as long as ambient is warmer than -18C.
I read the bit about climate classes, but even 'washerhelp' himself says (in a comment) that "I can’t see how ambient temperatures of below 10 degrees could stop a freezer working". Neither can I.
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I have a small chest freezer in the garage. It certainly hasn't stopped working ever, but it certainly produces far more ice inside it than it should , in winter, I did have an upright, tall fridge freezer in there some years ago and it used to be standing on a plinth of ice on the concrete floor by the time the days warmed up.
I had a freind who has very knowledgeable about whhite goods and he said, at the time, that freezers were designed to work in normal domestic temperatures
I make no claims to knowing anything about them myself.
Ted
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"If you leave the fridge turned on in a thermally isolated room, what happens to the room?" (Physics, Admissions Question, Oxford, 2009).
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>>
>> "If you leave the fridge turned on in a thermally isolated room, what happens to
>> the room?" (Physics, Admissions Question, Oxford, 2009).
>>
And the answer is?
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It warms up.
Heat input from fridge motor.
Heat output : nil.
Result: rise in temperature..
Of course, no room is thermally isolated 100%...
Last edited by: madf on Sat 30 Oct 10 at 17:25
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I presume you mean:
"If you leave the fridge turned on in a thermally isolated room, with the door open what happens to the room?"
It doesn't matter if the room's 100% thermally isolated it'll still warm up, because of the motor and no machine's 100% efficient.
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It gets warmer surely because the fridge motor is running harder and harder in a warmer temperature to keep cool.
Or is that too simple?
Pat
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>> I presume you mean:
>>
>> "If you leave the fridge turned on in a thermally isolated room, with the door
>> open what happens to the room?"
>>
That's not what the original question was. Madf is right, the room will warm up.
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Just to drag this thread back out of the freezer...
Did you manage to get your paintwork sorted, SFD?
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everytime i read this heading i wonder why you would want to insult a garage owner click on the link and read again its says insulting with wrappings..........doh
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Hi Mike, Good to get it from the freezer. Too cold in there...... :)
No, the guy never got back to me and indeed has been heard to have done a runner, having borrowed a lot of money from his relatives (who I am told could ill-afford it) to set up a new unit and place the deposit, etc and to kit it up. I was waiting for him to have his oven in place (which never happened) and then I was going to consider letting him have another go.
I had been told that some paint jobs that went slightly wrong with other people at the time I was affected had been re-done perfectly and therefore there was some hope I could get it put right, all doubts put to one side.
My fall-back position was that I was going to write the money off that I had spent with this turnip and wait until the New Year to have someone else do it. Knowing the guy was financially on his uppers even before he did a runner meant that even if I sued him, the chances of getting redress were limited.
At the end of the day I decided that life is too short to get emotionally embroiled and distressed about such a thing.
Therefore the car is sat, harlequin-like in different shades of black / grey, hidden under a cover in a cold garage, with a broken gearbox, feeling a bit sorry for itself.
I hope that santa might be able to fund at least a partial respray and gearbox repair (I hope a rebuild won't be needed.....) in the New Year.
How are things with yours? A bit better I hope?!
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madf says
your multitude of freezers will all be condensing moisture when cooling and then leaving it to evaporate- making things worse
and i agree
no way would i have a car that has nooks and crannies in its nether regions stored with fridges,
my garage would be like mike hannons ,covered but allowed to have a through draft,
im sure we covered the full reasons why on the dark side?
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I don't see how having fridges and freezers are to the detriment, quite the contrary as they'll raise the temperature in the garage a little enabling more water vapour to be held in the air. If their insulation is less than perfect, then again it'll be to your advantage as any water vapour will condense on their cold surfaces.
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The fridge will warm the atmosphere while it is cooling its contents, as it transfers heat from the contents to the air outside. After that point it will reach equilibrium, but will still be warming the garage very slightly simply because the fridge motor is consuming energy.
While the fridge is icing up it will be removing condensation from the atmosphere, assuming you sometimes open its door, but if you periodically leave its door open to defrost all the moisture will be released again.
If you have larder fridge that doesn't need deicing that process will be constant rather than periodic, so again no net effect.
Of course if you hack the ice out and dispose of it somewhere else there will be a net drying effect.
But all that will be marginal and not relevant to the effect on the car. You could have a perfectly sealed garage and a dehumidifier, but better and cheaper would just be a draughty garage. The easy way to stop condensation from the roof dripping onto the car is to fix a cheap tarpaulin as a liner on the ceiling secured with battens, arranged so that any water drips down the sides not on the car.
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"your multitude of freezers will all be condensing moisture when cooling"
Only on the inside! The 'radiator' part at the back cycles between hot, when working, and ambient, but unless SFD really does have a multitude of them, they are unlikely to make more than a few degrees' difference. Probably enough to help keep frost at bay (ironically) and by indirectly warming the car very slightly, enough to keep it above the dew point. You'll soon know...
Note that we are talking about freezers here. Some fridges drain condensed water out the back to a trough round the motor, which warms it up enough to evaporate it, thus putting it back where it came from. As Cliff notes, with freezers, there is a (small) net drying effect.
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Mon 1 Nov 10 at 15:27
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I think as the garage has a single brick wall, insulating the roof alone will make little difference.
Best to produce a through air current,,,,by some ventilation rather than spend money trying to insulate the uninsualtable and heat the country...
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1. Oxford exam question (seems a bit easy). Prima facie, madf is right. BUT.... I question whether the room is thermally insulated IF electricity is allowed to enter it.
2. OP's garage. I agree with madf. You need to get a draught through it. And take the cover off the car - that will only encourage condensation. And open the windows a crack.
3. Heating! Insulation! What a waste of effort. Anyway, rusting happens more quickly at a higher temperature.
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"Oxford exam question (seems a bit easy)"
It is Oxford - for hard-core science you need Cambridge.. :-)
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I was asked, in an interview, the question:
Why does a car need a gearbox when a steam engine doesn't?
I replied:
A steam engine develops maximum torque at zero RPM, a petrol engine doesn't. That's also why a steam engine doesn't need a clutch.
It was obvious the questioner didn't understand the question, let alone the answer.
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>> I was asked, in an interview, the question:
>> Why does a car need a gearbox when a steam engine doesn't?
>>
>> .
>>
Traction engines sometimes had gearboxes, I have just learned from reading Fred Dibnah.
They had a higher gear for speed on the road getting from job to job when they didn't need full torque.
Further reading showed that gearboxes were often favoured on steam locomotives in America. In Britain the same variable torque was achieved by means of adjusting the valve timing.
If a single or twin twin cyinder steam engine stops in a certain position it develops no torque at all. It needs carefull attention to piston position by the driver when stopping, or else a means of disconnecting the drive and moving the crankshaft round a bit.
I watched a traction engine driving onto a steep ramp onto its lorry. The critical position unfortunately just happened to coincide with the point where it had to go very slowly while engaging the ramp, and the engine stalled. It had to go back down the ramp, do a circle, then approach the ramp again and see if the pistons just happened to be in a different position where they could develop full torque. It took several goes to get the engine up.
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>> Anyway, rusting happens more quickly at a
>> higher temperature.
>>
Only if damp.
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Yes Bellboy, We did cover this on 'the dark side' early last autumn. As a result of somewhat conflicting arguments I bought the oil fired radiator and scared the pants off myself with the resulting bill after the winter.
I cannot open the window a crack as there is no window, but the garage door is sufficiently leaky to have a small draft going through. There are both fridges and freezers enclosed, but they do not currently make the garage warm due to: a, the leaky cracks round the door and b, the lack of insulation. Hence my original post really. I was wondering if I should try and retain what little heat the freezers might make by insulating the roof and trying to insulate the up-and-over door and the cracks around it.
Seems like the general concensus is leave everything well alone, but perhaps remove the (breathable) car cover, and not waste money putting the radiator on.
The freezers and fridges have nowhere else to live and the car's insurance stipulates that it is garaged. There is no local storage that I can find and even if I found this, I think tha car needs to be garaged on my property for the insurance.
In an ideal world I would love to knock the garage down and replace with a double garage joined to the house, but I understand that a big sewage pipe runs under the existing garage and therefore would prevent me building on it (although I have not fully explored this option).
Mind you, if I run the car for a bit the heat the engine develops would keep the garage nicely toasty for a day at least! Perhaps thats the answer. Fire up the engine every day or two!
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"Fire up the engine every day or two!"
I wouldn't do it too often, unless you intend to run it for long enough to warm it up thoroughly, including the exhaust, which will condense a lot of moisture until it's good and hot.
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>>How are things with yours? A bit better I hope?! <<
Yes, thank you. When French industrial relations allow me the fuel to take it out...
Last winter I ran the engine up to as hot as I could get it about once a week and kept the battery on a trickle charger. I also ran the air con, which is still blowing cold three years on from the last re-charge.
Sorry indeed to hear about the gearbox.
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...I ran the engine up to as hot as I could get it...
Would disconnecting the rad fan(s) make it heat quicker?
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>> the garage door is sufficiently leaky to have a small draft going through
You want to stop them doing it, their boots will make a real mess of your paintwork.
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Insulating the garage - idiot checking... - FotheringtonTomas
