www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11917444
Right so it is now ok for drivers to be extremely tired and also trying to cope with a 40 tonne lorry in ice?
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So you won't whinge when you run out of bread, milk, baked beans, and panda juce.
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I'm sure you put in an hours overtime when your busy Rattle, without falling asleep and managing to endanger everyone around you.
The Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport issued a press release on Friday praising the lorry drivers for the work they've done and the amount of goods that have been delivered despite the conditions.
We've got a driver who's managed two trips to Aberdeen and Inverness this week with multiple drops but as he started on Sunday, he's now parked up at Carnforth for 45 hours and won't get home at all this weekend. A trailer will be shunted up to him on Sunday for yet another trip to the Inverness and Perth area.
A little appreciation of the lengths people go to just to see the job gets done and food gets to the retailers, helps when you sit alone in your cab for 45 hours, and only a 7'' TV for company.
One thing I can assure you is that no lorry driver, driving in terrible weather will fall asleep, they will be high on adrenalin just trying to keep it all in a straight line for their own safety as well as everyone else around them.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sat 4 Dec 10 at 15:53
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11917444
>>
>> Right so it is now ok for drivers to be extremely tired and also trying
>> to cope with a 40 tonne lorry in ice?
>>
Just for your information, Rats, that relaxation does NOT allow us to either;
a) Exceed four and a half hours driving without taking a break of 45 minutes,
or
b) Do more than fifteen hours continuous duty (NOT continuous driving!) without taking a break of nine hours.
So we still have to take our breaks; basically what this means is that we can work our rest days to catch up on deliveries.
As usual the media has only presented half the story, although due to the excessive complications of drivers hours laws I wouldn't expect a layman to understand them even if the BBC had detailed the fine print!
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sat 4 Dec 10 at 16:30
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I didn't mean any offence, my point was that they are so quick to fine lorry drivers for breaking the rules normally stating safety reasons but when they are worried about the econemeny they can suddenly change the rules.
It is our modern society of supermarkets which causes these problems anyway. I mean London gets bread that is made in Bolton it just seems rather silly. In the old days I am sure everything was made on a lot more local basis.
The big supermarkets source food from ever does it cheaper no matter if that food has to travel 500 miles. This sort of madness is allowed to go on yet we are all told that 100w lightbulbs are now ilegal.
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...This sort of madness is allowed to go on yet we are all told that 100w lightbulbs are now illegal...
Good points, Rats, well made.
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Apart from my awful English!
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It's a good job that food is not delivered by the Royal Mail or we would be starving. I have had my papers delivered and some parcels delivered, but no visit from my postman for the last 5 days.
I hope they get privatised soon.
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We have had all letters but I am still waiting for a parcel which was sent out first class on Tuesday. I put in order in Ebuyer.com at 7:50pm on Ebuyer.com, it was delivered at 9:30am the next day.
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A thermometer ordered on fleabay yesterday from a firm in Suffolk arrived in N Wales this morning. Remarkable given the weather - No way would it have got here any quicker...
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sat 4 Dec 10 at 19:34
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And a TomTom for my daughter ordered from their website last Sunday arrived from Holland on Tuesday morning.
Pretty quick I'd say!
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>>but no visit from my postman for the last 5 days.
O dear. Perhaps no one has written to you?
Our postwoman arrived a little later than usual this morning delivering several pieces of mail from various parts of the U.K . She apolgised to me for the delay (about 1 hour later than usual at 10.30) Some feeble excuse tnat she had fallen off her bicycle on the ice...
Mail was various pieces, one registered. the remainder all first class from the midlands and locally here in the west country. As ever a few pieces of junk mail but nothing with any delay that was apparent. The registered item was sent quite late on Friday afternoon from
Birmingham.
No complaints here.
Phil I
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>> It's a good job that food is not delivered by the Royal Mail or we
>> would be starving. I have had my papers delivered and some parcels delivered, but no
>> visit from my postman for the last 5 days.
>> I hope they get privatised soon.
>>
If and when it does, you can forget about getting ANY delivery.
the private mail services do not to a general 'to door' service, and letters sent by private company will be put through your letter box by a RM postman.
Why? because it is not cost effective to deliver to every property in the country.
By the way, when the RM does the last leg of the private company's service, it gets paid next to nothing for the honour, so anyone who uses a private mail company, is effectively driving nails in the RM's coffin.
I'm sure you will remember the poor service you are presently getting, when you have to collect your mail from a selection of private mail collection centres after the RM as we know it, ceases to exist.
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I've just given you the thumbs up for this Rats. I wish it could be TEN.
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Pat, Swiss Tony. Absolute top posts. I agree with everything that you said.
Lorry Drivers and Royal Mail get unfairly vilified. Thanks for speaking up for them.
(And, No, I don't happen to work in either industry)
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On reading it though I see it did look as though I was getting at Rattle, and I wasn't. I'm sorry Rattle, I knew what you meant but in weather like this we do need to remind people what's gone into getting that loaf of bread into the shop.
I think I can speak for all lorry drivers when I say that this week will have been spent with a certain amount of fear and trepidation of what lies ahead.
You will see and hear the bravado, the confident posing behind the wheel but underneath that, the stark reality is that you're setting and you're not totally in control of what lies ahead.
You see so many lorries that are stuck, crashed or run off the road in these conditions and you know fine well that some of the drivers were hurt and you wonder when it's going to be your turn.
And let's not forget that the extra hour will be paid at something between £6 - £8 so for the princely sum of £32 a lorry driver will be allowed to suffer an extra 4 hours of that kind of stress next week.
I have fought many a battle about whether lorry drivers are professionals or not, and in my opinion they are.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sun 5 Dec 10 at 05:17
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Mmm, makes a change from us on the railways getting it in the neck... It seems to be ok for people not to get in to their warm little office, but as soon as its something that affects a "service" they receive then its no holes barred and we are expected to get in regardless of the weather and the fact that they will not be bothering... The papers have been full of such stories all week... probably written by journos who are based at home and sending their rubbish in by email without daring to venture out of their front door...
Another vote for RM and the Lorry Drivers, I know how you're feeling chaps and chapesses! ;-)
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>> Another vote for RM and the Lorry Drivers, I know how you're feeling chaps and
>> chapesses! ;-)
>>
I have every respect for HGV (especially artic) drivers. I've seen artics being reversed down a narrow tunnel that I'd have difficulty with in a car.
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My question is how do truck drivers treat being stuck on the road waiting for the snow ploughs to get through and the blockage to be cleared? Here in Germany it is possible for roads to be blocked for 12 hours or more. Would this count as driving time so the drivers could say when the road is clear that they are not allowed to drive any further and continue blocking the road? Hopefully, the "authorities" allow a degree of flexibility.
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>> My question is how do truck drivers treat being stuck on the road waiting for
>> the snow ploughs to get through and the blockage to be cleared?
Hopefully, the "authorities" allow a degree of flexibility.
>>
>>
Effectively, yes. If you're at a standstill then the tachograph does not record driving, but instead reverts to "other work" by default; this is the mode you use when unloading etc.
There is another mode known as "period of availability" which technically is used when the driver has a known period of waiting time ahead of him; for example if he turns up at his drop and the warehouse staff tell him that he will not be tipped for say four hours. This mode does not count against the Working Time Regulations, however it does count as part of the driver's daily duty period. With me so far? ;-)
If the delay to the driver is likely to be of nine hours or more duration, during which time the driver will not be able to move the vehicle at all (this is important) then he can switch to "rest" mode and then after the nine or more hours are up, he then continues on a fresh new driving day.
At all times the regulation regarding a maximum fifteen hours of duty applies; if in the case of extreme conditions, the police order a driver to move his vehicle during his rest period, they are required by law to endorse his tachograph chart with their name and number, to verify this.
I've simplified this as much as I can; there are more ins and outs than a hokey-cokey marathon in the European Driving Regulations, but hopefully this will give you some idea of what goes on.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sun 5 Dec 10 at 15:39
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It really does seem a bit stupid. I understand why the rules are there but and I know lorries are lethal compared with cars but what annoys me is a sales person can do 300 miles+ a day with no training other than standard driving lessons and there is no limit to how many hours they can drive.
I suppose this new change of the rules won't really cause any problems because working say 6 days a week for a week isn't going to cause any harm. The rules are there to stop lorry drivers from working 7 days a week 356 weeks a day I guess.
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>> I suppose this new change of the rules won't really cause any problems because working
>> say 6 days a week for a week isn't going to cause any harm. The
>> rules are there to stop lorry drivers from working 7 days a week 356 weeks
>> a day I guess.
>>
You got it in one, Rats. It's simply there to clear the backlog, and frequently it only applies to certain types of lorries; normally fuel deliveries, feedstuffs to farms, and essential supplies. If for example you were carrying a load of Easter eggs (don't laugh, I've done that before in October!) then the exemption would not apply to your vehicle; if it was fresh eggs it probably would.
Our company had such a permit last year in the bad weather; they're usually in place as you say for strictly limited lengths of time, and anyone caught abusing the system gets jumped on by VOSA from a very great height.
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It sounds a bit of a none story then which as usual as been hyped by the media. What makes it worse if they hype half the story so the public get the wrong idea.
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...it sounds a bit of a none story then which as usual as been hyped by the media. What makes it worse if they hype half the story so the public get the wrong idea...
Not really.
'Safety restriction relaxed on lorry transport to keep the country moving' is a valid story.
I think the benefit outweighs the risk, as do most on here, but others may disagree.
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Hopefully, the "authorities" allow a degree of flexibility.
>>
Always found them to be understanding when things are grim.
A colleague of my son's had his tacho signed twice during a 9 hour delay in Kent by passing police patrols last week, enabled him to carry on till he was well clear of the problems AND find himself proper parking with amenities, 20 hour day though.
I ended up driving over my time couple of years ago after a trailer (peculiar size) puncture caused me a 5 hour delay on the M11 which meant i'd done 18 hours by the time i'd found somewhere safe to park.
Sod's law dictated i'd get pulled for a weight check the following week by VOSA, i'd already endorsed the back of my tacho chart with an explanation and i told them of the problem when i handed my records over.
When they handed me my charts back they said they could see from my normal routine this was exceptional and didn't have a problem with me at all.
So long as you play by the rules and keep good records i've always found both Plod and VOSA fair when exceptional circumstances happen.
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>> Hopefully, the "authorities" allow a degree of flexibility.
>> >>
>> Always found them to be understanding when things are grim.
>>
>> A colleague of my son's had his tacho signed twice during a 9 hour delay
>> in Kent by passing police patrols last week,..........
>> ..........i'd already endorsed the back of my tacho chart with an explanation and i told
>> them of the problem when i handed my records over.
>> When they handed me my charts back they said they could see from my normal
>> routine this was exceptional and didn't have a problem with me at all.
>>
>> So long as you play by the rules and keep good records i've always found
>> both Plod and VOSA fair when exceptional circumstances happen.
>>
So, you can get Coppers to sign the back of the tacho card in exceptional cases, thats brill...But what about digital tachos? I understand there are a few of these now, if I understand correctly they are a bit like a credit card?
How do you get the old bill to 'sign' on those?
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I understand there are a few of these
>> now, if I understand correctly they are a bit like a credit card?
>> How do you get the old bill to 'sign' on those?
>>
On them all the time now since i changed jobs.
Still no problem, you just do a print off of the days activity...it comes out on a till receipt type roll, write any extraordinary circs on the back and/or get Mr Plod to sign it for you if he will.
I'm told the card i have at present holds something like 4 or 6 weeks of info, but the replacemet will hold up to 12 months, don't quote me my memory's never been good and not improving with time.
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>> Still no problem, you just do a print off of the days activity...it comes out
>> on a till receipt type roll, write any extraordinary circs on the back and/or get
>> Mr Plod to sign it for you if he will.
Ah, so the tacho has a built in printer, and the card holds the info, so you have in effect 2 copies?
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>> Ah, so the tacho has a built in printer, and the card holds the info,
>> so you have in effect 2 copies?
>>
Well you don't have to keep print offs but in the event of having to do something unusual it would be prudent as you can produce any reason in writing before the card reader goes hyper.
2 hard copies really, the digi recorder itself holds far more information.
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Most.
Gave an Eddie Stobart driver a bit of assistance today in a back street in a North Devon town just by walking 10 yds up a narrow street with a bend in it and giving him the all clear. As he passed he slowed to a crawl and mouthed thank you through the window. I wouldn't have opened it either at 3 below!! Much appreciated though as some don't give a toss.
M
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>> Pat, Swiss Tony. Absolute top posts. I agree with everything that you said.
>>
>> Lorry Drivers and Royal Mail get unfairly vilified. Thanks for speaking up for them.
>> (And, No, I don't happen to work in either industry)
>>
>>
Thanks, Im not a Postie, but was for a short time many years ago (over Xmas!!!) and I did enjoy it, except for the grief from 'management' and idiot householders/builders.. (too small, badly positioned, or non-existent letterboxes)
The pressure you can be under is unbelievable, to just get round the 'walk' in the time allowed is hard, and that's not including walking up the garden paths!
The days I hated most, were the days that 'junk mail' came through (readers digest prize draw etc) These were considered priority - you had 2 days to deliver to EVERY house on the walk. (think about it, many houses only get post 2-3 days out of a week [Im not saying post is held BTW - its not!] which doubles the work..)
Also, sickness can be a issue, at the time, we we were allowed 2 sicknesses a year, if you were ill a 3rd time, you got a written warning.
One (long term) postie had been off with pneumonia, and as it was xmas decided to go in as soon as he felt better.
he got caught in a downpour, and ended up back in hospital.
His written warning followed.
His 1st illness? he had been knocked off his bike by a car (at work), and had suffered a broken arm.
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Also, sickness can be a issue, at the time, we we were allowed 2 sicknesses
>> a year, if you were ill a 3rd time, you got a written warning.
>> One (long term) postie had been off with pneumonia, and as it was xmas decided
>> to go in as soon as he felt better.
>> he got caught in a downpour, and ended up back in hospital.
>> His written warning followed.
>> His 1st illness? he had been knocked off his bike by a car (at work),
>> and had suffered a broken arm.
>>
Been one of my arguments about the Bradford Factor beloved of HR departments in many companies, it totally takes away any exercise of common sense regarding the circumstances of a job and its varying duties by replacing it with a nice formula.
The Bradford Factor works as follows:- E x E x D = Bradford Factor where E = number of events and D = number of days sick in 52 weeks.
Thus 1 sick absence of 10 days in a year gives 1 x 1 x 10 = 10, but 5 absences totalling 10 days gives 5 x 5 x 10 = 250, therefore the second worker is worse than the first.
This can have quite an impact if applied with the same criteria across different work streams within a large company.
A worker who sits behind a desk in a centrally heated or air-conditioned office with coffee/tea to hand will find it far more comfortable to come to work with a bad cold than a worker expected to carry a 20kg bag over 3 miles in a given time in all weathers. Unsurprisingly, workers in manual/arduous jobs working in testing environments tend to take more sick leave than those who do not work in such conditions. Also inflexible application of arbitrary rules does not make for good industrial relations and worker commitment; I'll lay odds that given the same circumstances your man above would not return to work until he is fully fit, regardless of the needs of the company, if he runs the risk of returning early and suffering a relapse which would then make him liable to discipline proceedings, and potentially dismissal.
Stupidly rigid application can also leave the company open to unfair dismissal actions and payment of compensation.
Friend of mine was dismissed from the Royal Mail because of his sick record and won a fair amount of compensation and a reinstatement.
He'd had the 'flu with infected chest bordering on pneumonia, followed by an accident at work where a lorry reversed into him breaking his leg and resulting in the company paying damages for negligence, he was then attacked by a dog, hospitalised, and over twenty stitches required. As a result he'd had about ten weeks off so he was dismissed.
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HGV rules relaxed for the snow - Old Navy
