We are told that cars have ECUs and to some, they are mobile computers in effect.
Every other day there is some sort of update on my computer, most of which have no actual noticeable effect on the computer.
So are there many updates for car ECU's? If so, I take it they are non-urgent as they will normally only be caught at the next dealer service whenver that may be?
Also, if you go to an indie, does this mean you lose out on any updates? Or do some Indies do these?
And if the Indies do, is there some sort of recognition that states this ie. I have never passed an indie that has signs up saying "we do ecu updates" or whatever?
Thats all my questions today......
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I think many of us with new cars serviced by dealers while under warranty will have the odd update. On my C5 recently it was to improve the auto-lights operation. I doubt the indy will access to this info... perhaps it might filter through to them later on??
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>>will normally only be caught at the next dealer service whenver that may be?
Even so, any sensible garage, dealer or independent, will leave a car that's running well, and won't start fiddling about with upgrades even if they exist.
Upgrades are a fairly low level operation, and have been known to fail, leaving the ECU a worthless box of electronics.
Typically, you will get a software update if your car has a problem that isn't a striaghtforward sensor or wiring problem. You will also get a software upgrade if you ask for one, and pay for it being done.
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Isn't car software, or at least the engine management bit, relatively simple, compared to say Windows? I mean isn't it mostly look-up tables ie. lots of data but much not much control?
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>> Isn't car software, or at least the engine management bit, relatively simple, compared to say
>> Windows? I mean isn't it mostly look-up tables ie. lots of data but much not
>> much control?
Yes and no.
Yes in that the software knows exactly what machine it will be running on, unlike a PC, where Windows needs to be able to run on all sorts of CPUs, motherboards, video cards, etc.
No in that a pure look up table approach hasn't been used for a long time. Yes, there are look up tables to form a basis, and a back up approach, but, there is also quite an amount of programming to deal with the closed loop lambda, knock, and idle speed control - for misfire detection algorithms, and for interfacing with traction control, cruise control, and transmission control computers among others. The basic look up tables are now also supplemented by adaptive mappings which the computer calculates as the car runs - this takes yet more software.
The process of updating can, and does fail - the more secure the ECU is locked against theft and re-use on other cars, the more likely it is that a glitch in the update process will render the ECU scrap.
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Updates are not just related to the engine ECU. There are many feature processors dotted around the car, connected by the bus, that can need updates. One VW one I think was to stabilise the data comms around the car which was a bit "iffy"
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>>Updates are not just related to the engine ECU
Quite so. I used that as a good example to demonstrate that there's more to it than look up tables.
Getting the CAN bus systems to work reliably was one of the cases where a large number of updates were required. A significant number of the updates were simply to downgrade the error messages which are normal for any network, when packets of data go adrift, and stop them becoming known to the driver.
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>> So are there many updates for car ECU's?
If is a newly released car - yes. By the time they have been making them for two or three years the updates dwindle to nothing.
If so, I take it they are
>> non-urgent as they will normally only be caught at the next dealer service whenver that
>> may be?
Correct.
>> Also, if you go to an indie, does this mean you lose out on any
>> updates? Or do some Indies do these?
They could do it, most don't because it costs them fortunes for the kit and subscription for each make, let alone all of them.
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Some marques only have a central database, ie. they have nothing locally in each dealer. So when connected it checks the central database via the net and does everything from there. So there's next to no chance that indies will have this facility.
The days of manufacturers sending out disks and updates are long gone.
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>> Some marques only have a central database, ie. they have nothing locally in each dealer.
>> So when connected it checks the central database via the net and does everything from
>> there. So there's next to no chance that indies will have this facility.
EEC law states that the manufacturer has to make this data available, but does not specify the cost or method.
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>> Some marques only have a central database
www.etis.ford.com will list any outstanding TSBs if you enter the details of your Ford.
EDIT: Just tried it with a reg. no I know will produce a result, it seems to be down at the moment :( It did work, honestly.
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My MK2 2.0 TDCI Focus had a more powerful ECG valve motor and a software update at six months old. This was at about the time the modification was fitted to new builds. Ford had no choice, some of the cars had become dangerous to drive. Odd there was no formal recall, when I reported a major loss of power on moving off the dealer put the car off the road to await parts, and Ford rented me a Mondeo for three weeks until my car was fixed. I had waited a couple of weeks for the (expected) TSB to be issued before reporting the fault.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 14 Mar 11 at 11:21
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Most PC updates are for security, due to the fact that the PC frequently gets hooked up to the internet. Cars don't go online so they only need the occasional hardware upgrade.
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Cars need only the occasional hardware upgrade?
bit.ly/hYRrCU (link to "Computerworld" article)
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>> hooked up to the internet. Cars don't go online
They do now.
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Ok, here I stand shot to pieces by nit pickers ;0)
Let me rephrase, MOST cars don't go online and the ones that do don't get security upgrades.
Last edited by: Kithmo on Mon 14 Mar 11 at 14:02
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Obviously the concern is that one day, internet enabled cars could get a virus. I know that in the CAN system there are two networks, one high and one low speed, with all the critical stuff on the high speed network. Would that mean the important stuff on your car would be isolated to the low-speed network, where all the comms and data storage stuff would be connected? Or do the two networks talk to each other, thus risking a virus hitting critical in car CPUs.
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As the virus(s) are in the controllers, which are connected to both networks, the virus writer could choose whatever network he wants.
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And given how slow manufacturers were to adopt CD players and are now being glacially slow in proper iPod integration...the chances of the car's controllers being secured from external attack are basically Zero?
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It gets worse, a lot of them use MS windows!
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Ouch! No wonder my car started off OK, but gets slower and slower and doesn't seem to do what I want it to!
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Have your windows and headlights turned blue as well?
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BSOD at 70ish in lane three, interesting. :-)
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Cost a fortune to leave the damn thing running all night to update the software.
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I would only ever apply a firmware update to anything if there were a specific problem or limitation that I felt needed to be addressed. The old adage "if it ain't broke" is a very sensible approach in these cases.
The thought of "bricking" a modern car ECU through a failed update is just too horrible to contemplate.
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My A4 B7 170PD had 2 or 3 ECU updates in the 2 years I had it in an attempt to make it drink less fuel and drive more pleasantly, fuel economy never really improved but at least it wasn't completely gutless below 2K RPM (followed by all 258lb ft torque arriving at once) by the time they'd finished.
I know some satnav / entertainment / voice systems use WinCE but I had rather hoped that the ECUs etc used something rather more robust.....
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ECUs and safety critical stuff (ABS, instrumentation, etc.) don't use Windows CE. They use Real Time Operating Systems, normally designed by the ECU suppliers. Software for automotive applications is these days highly complex and is designed to be very robust - car users are far less tolerant of unstable software then PC users.
Windows CE is used (if at all) in things like Infotainment systems. The BMW iDrive originally used Windows CE but it was disposed of a number of years ago. I think it's used by Audi in the big A6 Navigation System and by Fiat.
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On the subject of updates, the software can be perfectly well written, but there is an inherent risk in the flashing / upgrade process.
We did a few printers at work a year or two ago. Six units, all identical, with sequential serial numbers. All on the same software version to begin with, all upgraded to the same version. Five were fine, one failed. The one that failed became a doorstop, until we replaced the controller unit and hard drive (they are matched).
I thought it would be a simple case of a call to the techies (we are the manufacturer of the product) who would send me some kind of workaround. But no joy. If it won't boot, the update can't apply itself. If the update can't be applied it won't boot. Scrap.
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Bad design. There should always be a bootstrap recovery.
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I agree, but there wasn't. I believe this is a pretty common scenario.
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>> I agree, but there wasn't. I believe this is a pretty common scenario.
used to be, but its been a while since a failed BIOS update would toast a PC motherboard for example.
I have bricked an IPHONE a year or two back in my jailbreaking days, but even that was recoverable eventually.
I bet one of the design guys could have ricohovered it!
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>> There should always be a bootstrap recovery.
There will be, there is in the car ECU case too. It just whether they want to divulge the information... Thankfully the manufacturers of the processors / SoC's used do give the details so there'll always be someone willing to come up with a way to fix "bricked" ECUs and the like.
Just had a horrible flashback to tombstone diagrams in university, and here was me writing them off all these years as the singularly most useless information presentation tool ever devised.
In fact, they still are.
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>> If is a newly released car - yes. By the time they have been making them for two or
>> three years the updates dwindle to nothing.
Not quite.
My new Grande Punto (five years into production) had an update this year because the curtain airbags would go off on the wrong side - D'oh! Ouch.
I was advised by letter that it was _urgent_ and to get it to the dealers ASAP.
However, it must be said those airbags may not have been part of the original spec.
And, it's a FIAT.
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>> My new Grande Punto (five years into production) had an update this year because the
>> curtain airbags would go off on the wrong side - D'oh! Ouch.
>>
>> I was advised by letter that it was _urgent_ and to get it to the
>> dealers ASAP.
>>
I wouldn't call that an update, I'd call it a correction
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I'd call it a confession :-)
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It's not a bug, it's a feature.
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You pay extra for features, it was a characteristic
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Car Software updates - Fenlander
