Not mine, thank heavens, but the daughter of a good friend. With his permission, I've copied the text from our Harley forum, he'd be grateful for any advice.
"I wonder if any of you can help me with this problem.
I bought my daughter a car from a dealers seven weeks ago. Got the full V5, two sets of keys, service history, old mot's and old tax discs. On Thursday night the police recovered the car from asda's carpark whilst my daughter was shopping. She came out and the car was gone. She contacted the police to report it stolen. The police came out and said that the car was on their stolen register. I asked them when it was stolen and they replied tuesday night.
I showed them the purchase receipt and all the cars details, reg, doc, mot's .. etc...
Their story was that a dealer had loaned the car to a guy with a view to buying, and he had not payed for it. The guy had sold it to another dealer, who I bought it from. The original dealer got sick of trying to contact the guy so reported it stolen.
We had HPI'd the car and it had come back clear as the original dealer had not reported it stolen yet.
The car is acruing storage/ impound charges as I type. it is up to £250 now.
The police have not been very helpful. The officer in charge is on night shift and we can only contact him after 10pm. The police have told us not to confront the dealers yet as they are investigating it.
Does anyone have any experience in this sort of matter.? Where do we stand.? Have we lost the car and/or the purchase price.?
If the car turns out to be legally our's, we will have to pay to get it out of storage. Can we claim the storage fee's back.?
I can't work out why a dealer would wait so long before they reported it stolen."
Any advice you guys could give would be much appreciated. My friend's been through a lot in recent years, and is only just getting back on his feet; he really doesn't need this.
Thanks in advance.
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Oh dear!
Firstly the vehicle has been sold to your daughter with all relevant documentation incuding V5 and keys which the first the dealer must have given to the potential purchaser. More fool him/her. Bit of difference to you buying a 'rung' car.
The second has defaulted on payment, not stolen the vehicle, therefore this is a civil debt between the dealer and the second person. If you buy a car on HP and default on payment the vehicle is not stolen but civil action is taken against you. Dealer is using the Police to sort out his mess.
The second person has sold your daughter the car which she has bought in good faith.
Unfortunately the OIC is on nights, not helpful but unfortunate. I would be speaking to them tonight and clarifying the situation. I would also be making it perfectly clear verbally and in writing that you have no responsibility for incurred storage charges as it was the Police that seized the vehicle and is therefore their responsibility. That should hurry them up a bit.
I have dealt with cases where the new owner has had to sign an undertaking that they will not dispose of the vehicle until notified and they have retained it until matters were sorted out.
Disputes over property can be resolved under the Police Property Act (Google) which is time consuming.
This is my opinion based on the fact presented.
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Has she got legal cover on her car insurance? Might be worth talking to them.
I wouldn't expect that she will lose out, either the dealer or HPI should refund the cost of the car or, as the car was already in the trade and not stolen from an individual, she could keep it and there becomes a civil dispute between the two dealers over the cost. I expect it'll be messy though.
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Re my posting above.
There may be an issue re criminal intent (or not) at the time of transaction. For example if I issue a cheque, knowing I have insufficiant funds, which is accepted by the seller who hands over all the paperwork then I have committed a fraud whereby the seller is entitled to report it stolen.
All hinges around the initial purchase/sale arrangements which the Police will have to investigate before they can make a decision as the whether a crime has been comitted or not.
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Thanks to Harleyman for putting this on here for me.
As an update.
I've spoken to the investigating officer. The case has been passed on to an investigating team in Durham. They told me that the dealer I bought the car from is in the clear because they had not bought the car, but sold it on a commission basis from the guy who borrowed it from the original dealer. and that they are now investigating multiple similar claims against the original dealer that reported it stolen.
They would not give me any more details.
When HPI'd it was clear as it did not get reported stolen until 7 weeks later.
Many thanks
Mick.
Last edited by: Helmetbolt on Sun 12 Jun 11 at 16:34
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Looks like another link in the chain then :-S
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I read somewhere it is now easier for a private buyer to establish good title, particularly when buying from a dealer.
Unfortunately, I can't find a decent link, partly because I'm on a slow dongle connection.
But from the OP's description of the way he bought the car, I don't think he will lose it.
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>>
>> But from the OP's description of the way he bought the car, I don't think
>> he will lose it.
>>
Trouble is, the storage bill might be more than the value of the car the way things are going:-/
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>> They told me that the dealer I bought the car from is
>> in the clear because they had not bought the car, but sold it on a
>> commission basis from the guy who borrowed it from the original dealer.
Hmm...I would guess that complicates things somewhat.
>> When HPI'd it was clear as it did not get reported stolen until 7 weeks
>> later.
Wonder if that allows HPI to wriggle out of paying, if they're asked to?
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The law really sucks.
The end user is clearly a victim of fraud. Then why she is being penalised??
I recall watching a similar event in BBC Watchdog. Unfortunately the law was drafted in 100 years back and gives the original owner right to get it back (as stolen).
Laws in Britain did not keep up with time.
Unrealated to this post, this also reminds me how lawmakers made a farce with gag order leaks in Twitter. Why make/keep laws which can't be applied in modern world?
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>> The law really sucks.
>>
>> The end user is clearly a victim of fraud. Then why she is being penalised??
There is always a victim in fraud, that's why it is a crime,
>> I recall watching a similar event in BBC Watchdog. Unfortunately the law was drafted in
>> 100 years back and gives the original owner right to get it back (as stolen).
>>
>> Laws in Britain did not keep up with time.
There is a very good basis for laws., NO-ONE must ever profit from crime.
Except the legal trade of course.
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Car theft problem - Fullchat
