| Motoring Discussion > What would you do? | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Pat | Replies: 140 |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:09
What would you do? - Pat
|
|
If you sat in the car behind this lorry? tinyurl.com/3ls5t7y Would you upload the film and put it on You Tube. It's plastered on the front of our local paper today. The firm incidentally is the first one I ever worked for, where I was told to cross the striking coal miners picket line or lose my job. The driver will lose his job, without a doubt. Is it any wonder we get defensive? Surely the place for that film is the Police Station, which is all of half a mile down the road, if the car driver felt strongly enough about it. Pat |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:26
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
Anyway it seems highly unlikely that the driver either made a mistake or did anything dangerous or 'wrong' in any but the most technical sense. Sitting high up and far forward, the driver would have had a good clear view in all directions at the lights. From the timing it looks as if he (or she) saw the lights change to red in the road at right angles and simply jumped the gun by a few seconds having seen it was safe to do so. Only an absolute wally would give a tuppenny damn about it. Can't help wondering Pat whether you sacrificed trade union principles or your job when they told you to cross a picket line. But don't feel pressed to disclose. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:34
What would you do? - Pat
|
|
I was 6 weeks into my first dream job AC, with a flat trailer and general haulage, it was all I'd ever wanted. I was female and no-one would believe I could do it, there wasn't a lot of choice to make when you consider that I lived alone and if I didn't work I didn't eat. Quite apart from all that I don't have any trade union principles at all, I've always believed there are better ways of solving a problem than striking. Pat |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:37
What would you do? - Stuartli
|
|
>>Quite apart from all that I don't have any trade union principles at all, I've always believed there are better ways of solving a problem than striking.>> Absolutely. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:43
What would you do? - Old Navy
|
| Absolutly nothing, he could see the road was clear and was a bit quick off the mark. None of us is a perfect driver. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:44
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
At least it's put Knowles Transport and Wimblington (top name) on the map - don't suppose they'd get on the front of the local paper any other way. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:49
What would you do? - Pat
|
|
They most certainly have Iffy:) Vosa went through them like a dose of salts a few years ago and found huge irregularities and then a few of their drivers sued them and got money that was owed to them for underpayment of the 'percentage' they were supposed to earn. Try Googling their name! Pat |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 16:00
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...and then a few of their drivers sued them and got money that was owed... There's sure to be drivers or ex-drivers who didn't get what they thought they were owed. Might explain why whoever it was decided to video such a relatively trivial matter and publicise it. My bet is on a former employee with a grudge. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 16:18
What would you do? - Pat
|
|
They were owed it Iffy, without a doubt. And a court ordered to Knowles to pay them a few thousand each to cover the previous 6 (7?) years. This is my experience of what happened. I would go into Heysham Dock and load 1200 bags of 20 Kilo bags of potatoes by hand. It was hard work as they then had to be roped and sheeted. The Agent respected me for doing it, and asked me one day how much I got paid per bag for loading them. I got 20% of 29p per bag. He cursed and called him everything as he was paying my boss 46p per bag and I should have been getting 20% of that. It doesn't sound a lot of money, but that happened with every load done, every day of the year. If you complained you were sacked. Pat |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 16:37
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...They were owed it Iffy, without a doubt... Pat, I don't doubt that for a second. But it sounds as if this firm made enemies, so an ex-driver with a grudge - justified or not - is the best bet for the cameraman. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:51
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> if I didn't work I didn't eat. That is of course the traditional predicament of the paid worker, and the way employers like things to be. And who can blame them? Exploiting the labour of others and appropriating a (somewhat variable) 'surplus' is what employers do. >> Quite apart from all that I don't have any trade union principles at all, I've always believed there are better ways of solving a problem than striking. There are indeed. And the 'strike weapon' came in this country to be over-used, to the detriment of the economy and the even greater detriment of public morality and discourse. Heigh-ho... But there was a time in this country, before our time, when labour organization was the only way to get a reasonable deal out of greedy cold-hearted carphounds who didn't give a damn for anything or anyone. The 19th century was a very turbulent period and gave birth to the tiresome and destructive discourse of class war. But also saw the birth of the Labour party or its component elements. You probably wouldn't see that as a bad thing. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 15:59
What would you do? - Pat
|
|
I do agree there was a time they were needed AC, and I remember when I was very young hearing about the conditions some had to work under. They lost their power when they became merely insurance companies for workers offering that as a benefit, as opposed to actually doing any work for the subs. Pat |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 16:17
What would you do? - BobbyG
|
|
When I worked in Safeway I was in the Union, can't remember which one. Then one day I had to discipline (and ultimately dismiss) an employee who brought the Union Convener to defend him. The guy was totally hopeless and ignorant of law and facts and I resigned from the Union the day after. Back to the OP, I wouldn't do anything. I wouldn't be filming him anyway but as far red light offences are concerned, I think jumping the start of the sequence is safer than the end! |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 16:17
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
The principles early trade unionists struggled to establish are today enshrined to an extent in national and European law and regulation. One should bear in mind though that these can be changed, openly or surreptitiously, in any direction. No one should assume that progress can't be reversed. And in other countries of course workers are often suffering under conditions not seen here for two centuries, and going through the same battles - quite often violent and bloody - that went on here in those days. Labour relations history in the US has a fairly startling side. There is widespread infiltration even of the biggest unions by 'organized crime', for example. And even today where Europeans would be shouting slogans and counter-slogans, in the US picketing workers may have to defend themselves against mercenary goons wielding pick handles. Don't even think about Central America or the Philippines where machine-gun fire is more likely. Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 23 Jun 11 at 10:45
|
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 17:19
What would you do? - Dutchie
|
|
I wouldn't have reported the driver and plasterd this film over you tube. (D.Head.) Iam with AM regarding Trade Unions without them we still be a in the dark ages .Read a book by Engels about working conditions in the past. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 17:39
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
There's a need for Unions....but when they become too strong and have head in sand principles they become a huge liability. I'm glad they were tamed....but equally glad they are still about. We need a balance in the middle somewhere. I 100% disagree with closed shops. Freedom of choice. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 17:43
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...I'm glad they were tamed....but equally glad they are still about... It's like a pendulum. Pre-Thatcher, the pendulum had swung too far in one direction. Arguably, she shoved it too far the other way. But something needed to be done. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 17:47
What would you do? - Runfer D'Hills
|
|
Crickey Iffy, I agree with you. One of us must be slacking. :-) Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Fri 17 Jun 11 at 17:48
|
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 17:53
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...Crickey Iffy, I agree with you. One of us is slacking... We've 'known' each other for getting on two years - it was bound to happen sometime. You are more into the business world than me, but I see the pendulum rule operate there as well. If a company's shares need to be marked up or down for good results or bad, the price often goes further than it needs to in whichever direction. Same applies to interest rates, although not to the same degree since the Bank of England took over. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 18:07
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
Unions have a place and function. Alas they are now poor at doing it, The union rot started when they became politicised, it was bound to happen of course but is no longer necessary as we are all no longer politically disenfranchised or without a vote. Its quite easy to fix, and bring some pride and usefullness back into the union movement, 1/ Make it illegal for unions to fund political organisations. 2/ Any action (strike, elections to offfice etc) by a union requires a clear majority of members by ballot - NOT a majority of those who bothered to vote This would ensure that union activity has to get all members to vote, and any action is seen to have a clear workforce, (and not agitators) mandate - and hence carries some real power. You could dump all other union based legislation with these two simple measures, making unions strong, sensible and accountable to its members. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Jun 11 at 18:12
|
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 18:28
What would you do? - rtj70
|
|
Only just took a look at the video. He clearly goes through on red but I put money on him seeing (a) the lights in the other direction turn red first and (b) could see nothing coming. Technically he jumped a red light and it's wrong and he shouldn't have done it. The driver could have always called the firm to discuss as he knew the company and reg. But the driver would still be at risk losing their job... but what else might they be doing wrong. Maybe they could have spoken to the company and initially downplayed exactly what was seen until he knew what they'd say? Posting the video on YouTube was wrong IMO. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 18:57
What would you do? - Dutchie
|
|
Its very easy to cal a disgruntled employee a trouble maker.When people are not happy in a job its either they are not right for it.Or they think the wages are not good enough for what they do .Maybe conditions are poor. In my opinion good people management is the key.I remember when I was working for BP assements came in and different bonusses which caused friction when people found out what the other was receiving.Percentage pay rises the same the one with the highest salary recieve the most.Look at the pension argument at the moment.Do people have to work till they drop.? For most people work is a end to a means earning money to sustain a living.Pay peanuts you get monkees. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 19:27
What would you do? - Fullchat
|
|
Maybe distracted by talking to the other Knowles driver coming off the junction on his CB. Pat your mention of the Miners Strike takes me to a journey I did the other day on the M18 which took me back to the Orgreave coke (thats not the diet or sniffing variety) convoys between Scunthorpe and Orgreave. Literally hundreds of bulkers travelling escorted in convoy. Where they all came from I know not but if it had wheels and moved it was used. To this day I doubt they were all road legal. I also recently wore for the first time my 'Convoy Black' tie from those days. Which was the callsign for the coke convoy. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 19:38
What would you do? - Pat
|
|
I remember the Orgreave well Fullchat. I was running from the Moira, Meacham, Desford mines around the Burton area to Northfleet and various power stations around the country. The Police told us to stop overnight at either end not between the journey, even if it meant going over our hours, and did a really good job of protecting us through the picket lines. The Pickets soon found something knew to shout though when they saw a female driving:) Lock doors, close windows, not above 5 MPH but whatever, DO NOT STOP...good advice, Pat |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 22:08
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> Its quite easy to fix, and bring some pride and usefullness back into the union movement, YEEEE hahah hahahahahahahaha! Yeeehahahahahaha! Yer raaaaasclaaat... (Some hope comrade, no offence) |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 22:14
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
I know it *wont* happen, the last thing the current gov wants is a strong union movement, so they wont make it easy. The labour gov would love to break the ties with the union, but cant. Also the workplace has changed. There is no "workplace" to unionise any more. The workforce is transient, devolved, mobile or working from home. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Jun 11 at 22:14
|
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 19:20
What would you do? - Manatee
|
|
Must be a grudge, maybe even a personal one if the cameraman was an ex-employee who would know the consequences for the lorry driver. Whilst we shouldn't be deciding which laws to obey and which to ignore, the fact is that we all do. Dobbing that driver in, unless he has done something unconnected and much more serious, is a low act. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 20:13
What would you do? - Dutchie
|
|
Agree Mantanee,we seem to be getting a culture of shopping people and not think about the consequenses. Sorry to disagree with you Pat but I would not have driven through a pickett line.Whatever the rights or wrongs of this strike thousand of jobs where lost and villages destroyed. I remember coppers waving ten pound notes at the miners,never mind its all history now. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 20:25
What would you do? - Zero
|
| That was the Met police dutchie. They were a nasty lot of B's in those days, even down here, but send them up there where they had no roots and, well. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:08
What would you do? - Dutchie
|
|
Thanks Zero i met quite a few miners during the strike Thatcher called them the enemy within . Always found them decent hardworking tough blokes.A bit like the Trawler fishermen who lost all their jobs to not being able to fish of Iceland. The Trawler owners already sold the rights to Iceland before the fishermen knew. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:12
What would you do? - R.P.
|
| Well, if Scargill had gone for a legal strike (by winning a ballot) the strike would have been validated in many people's eyes. The man is/was an idiot and badly let his members down. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:14
What would you do? - Zero
|
| Yup Scargill took his guys to the cleaners big time. what a cockroach. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:47
What would you do? - Manatee
|
|
>>The man is/was an idiot and badly let his members down. The Yorkshire miners I spoke to in and around Barnsley and Castleford didn't have a bad word for Scargill even after the strike when they were clearly defeated and had suffered great hardship. I don't know about Scargill myself, though there were plenty of people to say he was self-serving and cynical - I never knew whether to believe it, as he was such an obvious target for character assassination. I'm not sure he had much choice, even if with hindsight he made the wrong one. The policy on the mines was an economic one, as with the railways in the 1960s, but with more concentrated and devastating social consequences. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:57
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
The first thing he should have done, was to unify the union, which was a collection of semi autonomous federations, and as such ripe for attacking by region. But before the main strike he picked fights with the NCB, ensuring they were prepared. And then was suckered into endorsing action in the wrong places at the wrong times. As it is, we ended up with precious resources more or less lost for ever, union power emasculated, and generations of kids lost to work for ever. Scargill ended up rich and still living in a union provided mansion, with a miners workplace injury compensation scheme looted* *Allegedly Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Jun 11 at 22:00
|
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 22:01
What would you do? - R.P.
|
| If he'd have balloted, he would have won the right to strike and probably rightly timed it would have brought the government down. Maggie was simply better organised than the NUM. Doubt whether any government since would have had the balls or organizational skills hers had. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:15
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> Always found them decent hardworking tough blokes. 'Lions led by donkeys' as they said after the butchers' bill for the first world war started to dawn on people. Arthur Scargill played the role of donkey to perfection. Despicable git. One of countless thousands though. Are you one? Am I? |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:21
What would you do? - Zero
|
| I mean, Would you start a mining strike at the beginning of spring, and with coal stockpiled at power stations? |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 21:23
What would you do? - R.P.
|
|
what a cockroach. You're talking about Humph's new mate. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 22:18
What would you do? - R.P.
|
| Anyway we live in the age of the citizen journalist - everyone thinks they're part of the Sunday Times Insight Team.....it'll get worse. |
|
Fri 17 Jun 11 22:22
What would you do? - rtj70
|
|
>> I mean, Would you start a mining strike at the beginning of spring, and with coal stockpiled at power stations? Not if you had planned it right - no. I do remember gas heaters in my school because there was no coal. And because the heaters produced fumes.... we had to have the windows open. Work out how effective the heaters were then. In the end, the strike IMO led to the mass closures of mines and loss of jobs. Not quite an own goal but they tried to take on the establishment, went through hardship few of us could imagine... and then lost. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 07:10
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
Had Thatcher decided to put 90 per cent of the male population of Surrey out of work, there would have been more than a scuffle or two on a picket line. But she didn't, she wisely chose the frozen north - Yorkshire and County Durham - which nobody cared about. The impact on some of the pit 'villages' - population often several thousand - continues to be felt. It was thought many villages would just die - nothing left to stay for. Some did, and are now little more than signposts. But most did not, despite the planned withdrawal of services, which had to be put back when it became apparent the population was going nowhere. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 08:45
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
The frozen north pit villages would have died anyway, the pits were uneconomic, running out of resources and would have closed naturally. I bet the moderate miners of the Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire pits, who didn't strike and went on working, promised investment in modern pits, didn't expect their pits to be closed and thrown to the wolves some 10 years later either. They really did have the wool pulled over their eyes. Talk about used! |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 08:59
What would you do? - Roger.
|
|
The legacy of closed mines where I live now (north Notts) is still very apparent with several generations of people who have never worked. The predictable result, in some areas, is gangs of feral youths, a drug culture and town/village centres where unsociable behaviour is commonplace. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 09:38
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...The frozen north pit villages would have died anyway... Zero, That's the point - the pits closed, but most of the villages have not died, they are still there. The east coast of County Durham is quite heavily populated compared to the east coast of Northumberland, where there was much less mining activity. ...The predictable result, in some areas, is gangs of feral youths, a drug culture and town/village centres where unsociable behaviour is commonplace... Spot on - exactly the same in County Durham. Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 18 Jun 11 at 09:39
|
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 22:34
What would you do? - ....
|
|
>> The frozen north pit villages would have died anyway, the pits were uneconomic, running out >> of resources and would have closed naturally. >> The problem with that is, not everyone in the North worked in the pits. My father did and got out, working for S&N breweries. I grew up with the options of the pit, fishing or the armed forces. I chose education and left. I am forever grateful for my upbringing and roots but couldn't live in country which is out to shaft anyone and everyone. Coal will play a role in the future and will still have to be extracted. Question is who do you vote for? Thatcher will forever be hated and by association the Conservatives by my generation in the North. Labour's track record for the last 13 years is not exactly shining. Where do you go ? Last edited by: gmac on Sat 18 Jun 11 at 22:38
|
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 08:55
What would you do? - -
|
|
>> But she didn't, she wisely chose the frozen north - Yorkshire and County Durham - >> which nobody cared about. That's the whole point, many of us did care and still do, i attended the mass demonstrations in London against the pit closures at the time...the only time i have felt compelled to. This wasn't a rent a mob, there were hundreds of thousands of people from all walks of life, Saville Row suited and overcoated alongside people they maybe would never meet otherwise....oddly enough we didn't get truncheoned, coralled, penned in or trampled by the horses either. The decision to close the mines and import subsidised coal forever forbids me (a natural conservative) from voting for the conservative party ever again, the party led by Thatcher stabbed the heart of the country, i will never forgive them....i am not alone, and this could possibly be why they can't get a majority, and until history is rewritten, or the populace is brainwashed enough to believe black is white, they may never do so again in our liftetimes. Some of us do care and cannot be bought, few politicians would understand that. By the way before the nasty blighters here start throwing the ''thick'' or other terms at me and those who feel like me, i feel exactly the same about the rest of the parties in this country, they have all aided and abetted our slide into the present mess, and their press has helped them to do so...and all have lined their pockets at the expense of our country and independence. Whatever Scargill is or may have been, he dislosed the closure program before the strikes started, he was proved right on that, but never let proof stand against the middle classes preferred version of the truth. Thatcher's war on the country went well, she divided the two unions and the Nottingham miners kept enough coal going to force the inevitable rout...i wonder if they ever realised what had happened when their pits closed too. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 09:44
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...Whatever Scargill is or may have been, he disclosed the closure program before the strikes started, he was proved right on that... gb, Very true, as is the rest of your post. I didn't understand any of this until I moved to the North East, so as someone not from the patch, you've done well to get such a firm grasp. Zero's post (above) is typical of the ill-informed view of most people from down south. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 11:25
What would you do? - -
|
|
>> I didn't understand any of this until I moved to the North East, so as >> someone not from the patch. In earlier years i carried thousands of tons of coal in bulk tipper trucks, so spent years trundling round the pit villages, a few years after the closures i worked for Kwik Save, who had a shop at Grimethorpe...that was one of the most northerly deliveries from our midlands RDC...if ever there was such a bleak contrast between the former bustling place and the depressed result, this was it....probably hundreds of similar places but nonetheless soul destroying to see what politics and sheer stupidity can accomplish. I have read several books over the years too, written from various different perspectives about the times and the troubles, a chapter in our recent history that should not be forgotten by those not directly involved. Z was absolutely correct about the Notts and other miners being used, promised all, naively believed the marked serpent and like their former allies in the NUM, stabbed in the back when no longer needed. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 18 Jun 11 at 11:27
|
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 11:31
What would you do? - MD
|
|
Thank heavens you are back GB. The voice of reason. M |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 11:40
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...about the Notts and other miners being used... Agreed, and that continues to reverberate in a small way. When Sunderland AFC play either of the Nottingham clubs, the Sunderland fans still chant 'scabs' at the visiting supporters. Hard to believe the genuine hardship some of the striking miners went through, whatever Scargill had away from the NUM, the union had nowhere near enough to look after its members through a prolonged dispute. Some miners were literally starved into going back to work, and this is the 1980s, not the 1930s. Starvation didn't stop them being branded as 'scabs'. There are families that were split by a returning miner then which are still split today. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 12:01
What would you do? - -
|
|
>> There are families that were split by a returning miner then which are still split >> today. And that's the tragedy, divided they were and still are easy prey. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 12:06
What would you do? - R.P.
|
| If the NUM had focused their efforts on supporting striking miners instead of protecting their own interests (sequestrated funds etc) no miner would have had to go back because of starvation. Scargill knew it was going to be a long fight and they should have planned accordingly. Properly organized it was a battle the NUM could have won. As mentioned before old Scargill is doing quite well living cheaply in a smart Union funded flat (and even they want him out now) |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 14:51
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
>> >> There are families that were split by a returning miner then which are still split >> today. >> >> >> True; I lived and worked in Eastwood during the strike; much of my work involved delivering machinery to collieries. To those who bemoan the demise of our pits I'll say this; if Tesco said to the government, "We're skint; we'll continue to supply cheap groceries but we need your help to pay the wages", there'd be uproar; but that was what was happening to our coal industry. Inept management, intransigent unions. lack of capital investment and a cutural dependence on government subsidies, coupled with a lessening of dependence on coal-fired power stations ( this being the era of the then new nuclear stations, prior to Chernobyl, and also North Sea gas) signed the mines' death warrant; Thatcher was merely the executioner. I'd also dare to suggest that there were a fair few Labour politicians who DID live in the real world, who were secretly glad that the Conservatives achieved what no Labour government would dare to, despite the fact that Labour closed more mines in the 1960's than the Conservatives ever did in the 1980's. The method was brutal, I concede that, but the outcome was inevitable. Going back to what Pat said earlier; it's all very well you high-minded types preaching about not crossing picket lines. Your principles wouldn't have fed my wife and kids, and lorry drivers didn't get strike pay. Either you worked or someone else did it; ironically that happened to my cousin and his job was taken by a striking miner. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 17:39
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
Thatcher was merely the executioner. I'd also dare to suggest >> that there were a fair few Labour politicians who DID live in the real world, >> who were secretly glad that the Conservatives achieved what no Labour government would dare to, despite the fact that Labour closed more mines in the 1960's than the Conservatives ever did in the 1980's. A voice of reason. Margaret Thatcher did what she did, because she thought the country needed it..i.e. she looked at the bigger picture. Some of the decisions and some of the actions were tough..but i'm damned glad she did them. That is why she was revered all over the world..for being a tough, principled, achieving leader. >> >> The method was brutal, I concede that, but the outcome was inevitable. Exactly. I was at the miner's strike...as a young police officer from London. Whilst at the time I was young and naive and only saw sone of it for increased overtime and a week's beer with the lads...as well as some very long hours and the odd enormous fight .......over the years i've come to realise what it was all about. I'm PROUD to have been there and done my bit and it was very much needed. The government of the day, in a democracy, decreed something that I now believe was necessary for economic reasons...(at the time I had no idea). Unions and their members decided otherwise.....so there was conflict. I understand all the reasoning about communities needing work and let's face it, it must be devastating to have the local industry stop..and have your kids futures seemingly end there and then..but that industry had to stop at some point, the coal would run out some day..or become uneconomic to get out of the ground. That major conflict arose because Unions were too powerful and previous govts too weak..so when it did happen it was a shock to the system. What to me is unforgivable, is the violence and outright nastiness dished out to people who did wish to work (for whatever reason). Surely in a democracy, they should be able to choose? You hear all sorts of war stories about that time, most of which is embellished or politicised. What people never heard about was the other side....and there was one, there usually is. I think it's very sad that a whole region has jobs problems...but the way to deal with that is not to try to bring the country to its' knees....what happens after that? The economic problems are even worse. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 18:14
What would you do? - Bromptonaut
|
|
WP So when the present govt of the day decides, for economic reasons, to implement the wild proposals currently emanating from Tom Winsor they'll have your full support? |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 21:27
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
>> So when the present govt of the day decides, for economic reasons, to implement the >> wild proposals currently emanating from Tom Winsor they'll have your full support? >> There are some deeply unpalatable thoughts in that report...(and Hutton's)....and i'm not convinced they've all been thought through properly... ....but...the basic principle of us as a country having to drastically cut back from the waste and inefficiency we've had in the past, together with dealing with ours and the whole world's economic worries, I 100% agree with...no pain, no gain unfortunately. So my best answer is 'yes' to the principle of it...but a few tweaks to the minutiae..e.g. I don't think it is right for people to go backwards in pay...ring fence it maybe, but not take away. If you get a good pension...you should pay for it...no problem with that. I certainly do not think that everyone else should suffer some pain, but my lot should be left alone. Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 18 Jun 11 at 21:28
|
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 19:15
What would you do? - BobbyG
|
|
>>That is why she was revered all over the world..for being a tough, principled, achieving leader. Not in Scotland! She is still hated, she is still the main reason why the Tories cannot make any inroads into Scotland. And thats before you mention using us as guinea pigs for the Poll Tax. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 19:28
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
>> Not in Scotland! She is still hated, she is still the main reason why the >> Tories cannot make any inroads into Scotland. Sounds about right; BTW, in case you hadn't noticed, Mrs. Thatcher's been out of it for nearly twenty years now. Isn't it about time you moved on? |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 20:13
What would you do? - BobbyG
|
|
>>Mrs. Thatcher's been out of it for nearly twenty years now. Isn't it about time you moved on? oh don't worry, all the problems she created didn't stop when she left office. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 20:17
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...Mrs. Thatcher's been out of it for nearly twenty years now. Isn't it about time you moved on?... She's still reviled by many in the North East. I can't see those people 'moving on' anytime soon. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 13:04
What would you do? - Badwolf
|
|
>> What to me is unforgivable, is the violence and outright nastiness dished out to people >> who did wish to work (for whatever reason). Surely in a democracy, they should be >> able to choose? You'd have thought so, wouldn't you? I was at a different depot last August, when strike action was voted for (by the minority that voted in the ballot). The strike was over what amounted to a pay offer of 18p per hour, and was for four days. I decided that, even though I was in the Union, I couldn't afford to lose four days' pay and so volunteered to work. That was the worst mistake of my working life. The bile and hatred amongst people I had previously counted as colleagues was truly shocking. I received death threats and other lovely messages via Facebook and I was driven at as I left the depot in my car. The next day I had to park my car two miles from the depot and be collected by a manager, and shortly after I went out in the bus I was recalled to the depot as the management had been told by the police that the pickets were planning to become mobile around the bus stations. I was sent home for my own safety. I had previously been told by my manager that I was considered as 'management material' and would be put forward for the next Staff Development Programme. I was on £9.80 per hour and spent around £20 on fuel to get to and from work. Now, because I had the temerity to put my family before my work colleagues, I am no longer on the list for career progression, I am on a lower hourly wage and I spend nearer £50 a week on fuel. I am now very bitter towards the Unions and would never cross a picket line again, not through any sense of solidarity but through a genuine sense of fear The company Mrs B works for is in danger of closing down, and the Unions are following their own agenda. The majority of the employees are happy to accept a cut in pay and a change in conditions in order to save their jobs but the Unions are refusing to put this across to the company. Mrs B stands to lose her job thanks to Union posturing. Great, isn't it? Last edited by: Badwolf on Mon 20 Jun 11 at 13:06
|
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 19:19
What would you do? - BobbyG
|
|
>>To those who bemoan the demise of our pits I'll say this; if Tesco said to the government, "We're skint; we'll continue to supply cheap groceries but we need your help to pay the wages", there'd be uproar; but that was what was happening to our coal industry. So if the banks spend all our money and bring the country to its knees, what happened? How many times have we seen millions of bribery being given to new factories etc setting up? How many times have we seen millions of tax payers money being flooded into ailing companies to keep the workforce going? Can't help but think thats what they should now be doing with Southern Cross - take it into State ownership as well. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 19:25
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
>> >> So if the banks spend all our money and bring the country to its knees, >> what happened? Pretty much the same as what happened when Gordon Brown did the same thing. ;-) |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 21:50
What would you do? - swiss tony
|
|
>> >> So if the banks spend all our money and bring the country to its >> knees, what happened? >> >> Pretty much the same as what happened when Gordon Brown did the same thing. ;-) >> The whole idea of Labour bankrupting the country is based on a joke that some councillor wrote on a piece of paper when his council was taken over by the torys. The UK is skint, of that there is no question, but so is nearly every other country in the world. The fact is more people are now in hardship, than were under Labour. Making more people jobless, and homeless does not, and will not help us get out of recession, it is likely to plunge us deeper in to it. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 22:33
What would you do? - commerdriver
|
|
>> The whole idea of Labour bankrupting the country is based on a joke that some >> councillor wrote on a piece of paper when his council was taken over by the >> torys. No the "joke" was left by the Labour Chief Secretary to the treasury Liam Byrne the day the coalition took over It wasn't and isn't a joke >> The fact is more people are now in hardship, than were under Labour. because Labour spent money we didn't have putting the problem off instead of dealing with it. >> Making more people jobless, and homeless does not, and will not help us get out >> of recession, it is likely to plunge us deeper in to it The alternative is to take the Greek / Irish / Portuguese approach and ignore it till you go bankrupt and a lot more people get hurt much worse. I don't have much time for the coalition but anything is better than a government which lied from day 1, ruined the pension prospects of those who produced the wealth for the rest of the country and judging by its efforts in opposition still hasn't learned that there are difficulties to be faced and not facing up to them is not an option. |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 13:52
What would you do? - captain chaos
|
|
It seems this country is hell bent on taxing its way out of the recession. Tax until the pips squeak, then tax some more. Zero consumer confidence, very little being spent on the high street. Way to go. A couple came into the shop a few weeks ago, just returned from a holiday in the U.S. Said people were spending money like it was going out of fashion. How nice. They may be moaning about the cost of filling up their gargantuan SUVs but at least their fuel is only taxed at 16%, not 60% percent like ours. Tow the caravan down to Devon in the jeep and tour around for a couple of weeks or get a cheap flight to guaranteed sunshine and spend my hard earned abroad? Hmm. |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 15:08
What would you do? - Duncan
|
|
>>>> They may be moaning about the cost of filling up their gargantuan SUVs but at >> least their fuel is only taxed at 16%, not 60% percent like ours. >> How do you arrive at that figure of 60%? Cost of product including tax, duty, VAT and Old Uncle Tom Cobberley £132.9 per litre (say) Cost of excluding the above 52.8 pence per litre. Therefore tax and duty comes to 80.1 pence per litre, which I calculate gives a tax rate of around 151% |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 16:11
What would you do? - Focusless
|
|
>> How do you arrive at that figure of 60%? Presumably from 80/133 ie. of the total cost, 60% is tax. |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 15:40
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
>> The fact is more people are now in hardship, than were under Labour. >> You'd be extremely naive to think that simply changing the government would reverse that in less than two years, never mind overnight. If you cast your mind back, that also happened in 1979/80 after Wison, and then Callaghan (admittedly with a bit of help from Heath) screwed this country into the ground, and then spent the next few years complaining about the mess the Tories were in. I find it strange that the Tory-haters, of whatever persuasion, seem to have a problem remembering the mire their own kind got us into in the first place. |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 15:59
What would you do? - swiss tony
|
|
>> >> The fact is more people are now in hardship, than were under Labour. >> >> >> >> You'd be extremely naive to think that simply changing the government would reverse that in less than two years, never mind overnight. >> No, Im not that naive, but the present Government, which you may have failed to notice isn't a Conservative one, but a coalition, are accelerating the hardship the lesser paid members of out society are in. As someone else has pointed out, higher taxes equals less spending, which results in more businesses going down the pan, which means more unemployed, or less pay, which then means they can't spend so much, that creates a downward spiral... Labour DID make many mistakes, but so is this present lot... I'll be honest, I don't know who is the worst of them all - but there again, which ever party(ies) are in power, the REAL people who run the country NEVER change - I mean of course the 'advisor's' and civil servants...... |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 17:57
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
which ever >> party(ies) are in power, the REAL people who run the country NEVER change - I >> mean of course the 'advisor's' and civil servants...... >> Yes, I'm afraid you're right there. |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 20:31
What would you do? - swiss tony
|
|
>> which ever party(ies) are in power, the REAL people who run the country NEVER change - >> I mean of course the 'advisor's' and civil servants...... >> >> Yes, I'm afraid you're right there. >> We agree at last! ;-) |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 13:21
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
>> ...Whatever Scargill is or may have been, he disclosed the closure program before the strikes >> started, he was proved right on that... >> >> gb, >> >> Very true, as is the rest of your post. >> >> I didn't understand any of this until I moved to the North East, so as >> someone not from the patch, you've done well to get such a firm grasp. >> >> Zero's post (above) is typical of the ill-informed view of most people from down south. >> >> Not Ill informed but non parochial. The pits there would have been mined out Posted from the Bradford arms, Knocking, Just west of Shrewbury. Good beer battered fish and chips! |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 14:13
What would you do? - R.P.
|
| Shrewsbury - lovely weather up here at the moment...bit of a breeze which should set the flag fluttering in Criccieth....but at least its dry. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 14:19
What would you do? - bathtub tom
|
| We've just had a ten minute, heavy shower that's probably dumped more water than we've seen in a couple of months! |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 19:52
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
>> Shrewsbury - lovely weather up here at the moment...bit of a breeze which should set >> the flag fluttering in Criccieth....but at least its dry. >> Lovely evening here in Afon Wen, sipping some cold White wine looking at the view across Bae Tremadog to Harlech castle with the clouds round Foel Ddu as a distant backdrop |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 14:57
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...The pits there would have been mined out... Untrue. There are plenty of reserves. Before closure, the County Durham miners were scraping coal off faces several miles out under the North Sea. There were many reasons for closing the pits, but 'mined out' was not one of them. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 18:36
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
>> There are plenty of reserves. >> >> Before closure, the County Durham miners were scraping coal off faces several miles out under >> the North Sea. >> There is no dispute that the reserves are there. What is often overlooked is the economics of mining them. See the Vale of Belvoir coalfield for a salutary lesson in how not to go about it. Another stumbling block is that a lot of the coal under this island is high-grade, high-sulphur coal, perfect for railway locomotives but not nearly so good for power stations. Up on the heads of the valleys, near Merthyr Tydfil, open-casting on a small scale has re-commenced. Not so long ago, such operations were vehemently opposed, not least by the unions because they require less manpower and are therefore considerably cheaper to run. Open-casting in this country, though, is nowhere near as vast as in the rest of the world, limited as it is by the topgraphy of Britain and the opposition of tree-huggers. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 19:35
What would you do? - captain chaos
|
|
Ah yes, the miner's strike. When Thatcher's stormtroopers went into battle without their numbers on their uniforms At least the plod's head honcho had the good grace to admit what was done was wrong. After he'd retired, of course. |
|
Sat 18 Jun 11 19:48
What would you do? - captain chaos
|
|
Sorry, forgot the :) ;) |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 09:04
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
There's a few stories among Durham policemen about the amount of overtime they earned. One told me: "Some wasted it, but most of us were set up for life. "I got married soon after, and we were able to buy a better house than we could have dreamed about with only a very small mortgage." Another Durham officer told me the strike started a month after he joined. "I was pleased with my first month's pay," he said. "It was more money than I'd ever seen. "Then I was on the picket line, and the next month was four times as much, and that went on for months. "I hated the job, I was scared most of the time, but there's no denying we got an awful lot of money for doing it." It seems many Durham policemen put their earnings into property. I've heard this phrase a few times: "I don't live in the house that Jack built, I live in the house that Arthur paid for." Last edited by: Iffy on Sun 19 Jun 11 at 09:05
|
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 11:09
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
To add a bit of balance; how many miners bought their council houses at a sizeable discount, with their substantial pay-offs? Of course, that wasn't a Thatcher initiative was it? ;-) A friend of mine did six years in the washing plant at Gedling colliery, came out with £14,000; my old man did 43 years at Hoveringham Gravels, it was bought out by Tarmac a year before he took voluntary redundancy, he got £5,000. As an aside; Labour were in power from 1997 to 2010; can anyone please tell me how many collieries they re-opened during that period? |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 17:15
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
Very superior example of thread drift here. My asking purely out of curiosity whether Pat had crossed a picket line has led to a long discussion of trade unions in this country with a number of very fine posts. Chapeau Harleyman. It's quite a few years now since I thought it especially sinful to cross a picket line, although it does depend to some extent on the nature of the industrial action concerned. However in the last gasp of the old Labour hard left in this country, during the early eighties, there were a number of causes celebres of this kind that gave rise to some very distasteful polemic and behaviour. The mere fact that an employer - in this country anyway - is crap in some wholly predictable way (Grunwick, remember that one?) simply doesn't justify thuggish behaviour by the union concerned, other friendly unions or 'flying pickets' among whom crass political mischief-makers were to be found. Those were the days when I finally gave up being overtly and boringly lefty and reverted to type as a bourgeois liberal (with a small l). But that change had been in gestation for some time as a result of visits to ostensibly socialist third world countries. There's nothing like seeing how these things can work in practice to straighten out one's attitudes. |
|
Sun 19 Jun 11 21:00
What would you do? - bathtub tom
|
|
I was an apprentice in the '60s, during a strike. I attended the pre-strike meeting, where one of the questions asked was : do we thump them before or after they've crossed the picket line? I was apparently exempt due to my status! I'm afraid that coloured my judgement an awful lot of my fellow working class. I subsequently resigned from that union, after many years membership, when the branch secretary lied to a question I asked at a branch meeting. The branch secretary of an adjacent branch gave an honest answer to the question. Myself and many others left as a result. Moving on in life, I found my union 'screwed' the lowly paid in in a very disconcerting settlement. I subsequently settled 'out of court' for the humiliation of signing a non-disclosure agreement. I've become very right wing. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 12:13
What would you do? - Number_Cruncher
|
|
Oh Joy! It looks like the dominant union at my place of work wants to join in with the fun on 30th June. Will I cross the picket line, or not? Should I, or should I not? To re-ask Pat's initial question, the title of this thread, what would you do? While I despise the unions and their work, and while I hope the public will have no sympathy at all for this strike action, by public sector workers whose pay and conditions ARE cushy, I don't want to be a *complete* pariah at work. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 12:34
What would you do? - -
|
|
That's an awkward one NC. From a moral view, there may well be genuine grievances, broken established deals and practices and long term loyalties involved, much the same as those in the private sector. Showing loyalty to your fellows would be right too, assuming they form the picket line and not just assorted bussed in protesters. You come across as a strong character and unlikely to be intimidated by a picket line, but you have many years career ahead of you, and who knows where your name might crop up and who might just be in a position to throw a spanner in your works at some point long in the future. However if your principle is that you want to go to work and to hell with them then do so, too few men of principle left in this country, and about two in parliament at the last count. It would help if there were real cuts, instead of spending the same amount of money but redistributing the alloted amount, with foreign aid getting increased spending if anything. There, that's clear as mud isn't it...for what it's worth i wouldn't cross a picket line. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 12:37
What would you do? - captain chaos
|
|
It isn't all roses in the garden in the public sector. Wife works for the government. Spending all day on the phone listening to abusive phone calls from low life scum just out of prison demanding to know where their *@#^"*# money is, to people who can't even speak the native language of their host country demanding to be put through to an interpreter in order to claim more money from a system they haven't put anything into. Don't meet the call quota and you're in trouble. You can't hurry up a distressed old dear in need of round the clock care crying because her benefit has been reduced or stopped because of new rules. I couldn't do her job and I wouldn't want to. She dropped out of the Union because they're about as much use as a chocolate teapot. Went into hospital and got a warning for it on return to work. I kid you not. There are no carrots at her place of work, only sticks. Cushy it is not. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 12:57
What would you do? - Meldrew
|
| Are you a paid up member of the striking union? |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 13:24
What would you do? - Mapmaker
|
|
NC. The only diplomatic option is to take a day's paid leave. Or work from home (if you can). |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 22:29
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
>> Oh Joy! >> >> It looks like the dominant union at my place of work wants to join in >> with the fun on 30th June. >> >> Will I cross the picket line, or not? Should I, or should I not? >> >> To re-ask Pat's initial question, the title of this thread, what would you do? >> Actually it's pretty simple. If in any way you would benefit from the strikers Winning their case, for example keeping a pension entitlement, you should not cross the picket line. To cross the picket line and accept any benefits they might win is hypocrisy of the highest order. I have crossed picket lines (mostly printers and NUJ disputes) but their disputes Were of no benefit to me. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 10:26
What would you do? - Number_Cruncher
|
|
>>To cross the picket line and accept any benefits they might win is hypocrisy >> of the highest order. >> I appreciate your point, but, I can't agree with it. Why should the views of a fairly millitant minority have such dominance? At our place, for example, - about half the workforce are in the union - the turnout at the ballot was about 20% - of those, about 70% voted for a strike. I hope that when the students begin taking on their £9K pa fees they won't take stiking lecturers with such good grace, and that they should begin to approach the university for a refund for lost tuition. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 14:21
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> a number of very fine posts. Chapeau Harleyman. Chapeau GB too, and N_C. Others including of course the OP also impress. In fact I find this whole thread strangely reassuring. People are real and aren't idiots or carphounds. I wish this was mine but it isn't: The gallows in my garden, so men say, Is new and neat and adequately tall. I tie the noose on in a knowing way (As one who knots his necktie for a ball). And just as all the neighbours, on the wall, Are drawing a long breath to shout: Hooray! The strangest whim has seized me: after all, I think I will not hang myself today... |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 13:28
What would you do? - Mapmaker
|
|
On strikes, it turns out there was a tube strike last night. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13836637 From 9pm to 3am. Why? Whom did that disrupt? (Other than the poor devils who should have been working the late shift and so lost four hours' pay.) |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 13:46
What would you do? - Number_Cruncher
|
|
I'm not a member of any union. Yes MM, the idea of a day's leave, or, working from home are both tempting options, and one, or other of them will probably be what I will do. The weasel's way out! In this respect, I am very lucky in having the option to work from home when there is nothing timetabled which forces me to turn up. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 16:24
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
I'd have no problems crossing a picket line. There are very, very few disputes IMO that warrant a strike, so I wouldn't be able to justify to myself adherence to a picket line. If there were to be a genuine case, then i'd make an informed decision at that time. I cannot for the life of me see why tube train drivers need to strike..other than the Communist Bob Crow wishing at every opportunity to bring down a democratically elected government...and lemmings following him. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 18:13
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...I cannot for the life of me see why tube train drivers need to strike... Job pays £40K+, although I believe this dispute is in support of a sacked colleague. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 19:16
What would you do? - BiggerBadderDave
|
|
"Job pays £40K+, although I believe this dispute is in support of a sacked colleague." Not bad money for going forwards, stopping, opening doors, closing doors and lurching. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 19:38
What would you do? - CGNorwich
|
| On the Victoria line they don't even have to do that . Driver's responsibility consists of pressing a button to open the doors and pressing a start button to start the train. Train will only start if the line is clear. Everything else is automatic. A smart baboon would be over qualified to do the job. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 20:28
What would you do? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Everything else is automatic Until the automation packs up. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 20:37
What would you do? - CGNorwich
|
| Don't think the operative can help then. ON the DLR there are no staff at all at the front of the train. Most train crashes are caused by human error |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 22:42
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
>> Don't think the operative can help then. ON the DLR there are no staff at >> all at the front of the train. Most train crashes are caused by human error >> There is a DLR person on the train, the automation packs up frequently, and they can and do drive the train. Seen it happen numerous times. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 22:57
What would you do? - CGNorwich
|
|
Yes the trains can be driven manually, but there is normally no one at the front of the train. The member of staff's responsibility is normally restricted to opening the doors. On Sunday mornings all trains are driven manually simply to maintain the number of hours needed to qualify as a driver. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 20:40
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> Until the automation packs up. That would make the train stop, surely? Unless of course the automation had really really really packed up... What happens with the docklands light railway which has dispensed with drivers? Does the train get the salary? Does the front car get more than the others? How do these trains access their bank accounts? |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:06
What would you do? - Armel Coussine
|
|
I wonder if the driverless airport shuttle at Kuala Lumpur gets paid more than the trains on the DLR? It certainly should. It's much more like a proper train, spotlessly clean and with animated adverts and so on showing on numerous screens. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:14
What would you do? - Old Navy
|
| I believe the Dubai Metro is the longest driverless system, works well too, dying breed these train drivers. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 20:37
What would you do? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> I cannot for the life of me see why tube train drivers need to strike..other >> than the Communist Bob Crow wishing at every opportunity to bring down a democratically elected >> government...and lemmings following him. > I don't think stopping the tube running will bring down a government or even BoJo. Other public services including the federation might have a reote chance but a few public transpor operatives - not even in London. Brother Crowe is elected by memebrs of the union in what is essentially a commercial deal - they pay their subs and he gets them better deals. No Lemmings are involved. And while £40k is not to be sneezed at it's not a massive wage by London standards. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 20:43
What would you do? - -
|
|
>> And while £40k is not to be sneezed at it's not a massive wage by >> London standards. >> Not bad for a 39 hour week, Mon to Fri 9 to 5 and every bank holiday off...:-) |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 20:52
What would you do? - CGNorwich
|
| £40K is the starting basic. Actual earnings are considerably more. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:01
What would you do? - -
|
|
>> £40K is the starting basic. Actual earnings are considerably more. >> Good for them, active and effective union does work, anti social and extra hours should be well paid. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:28
What would you do? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Good for them, active and effective union does work, anti social and extra hours should >> be well paid. +1 |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:28
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
>> Good for them, active and effective union does work, anti social and extra hours should >> be well paid. >> How come nurses and ambulance crews don't get nearly that much then? How does an active and effective union 'work' then...does 'work' mean disproportionate amount of remuneration for some that don't necessarily warrant it, because the union can blackmail everyone else if they get their members to 'down tools'? |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:39
What would you do? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> How come nurses and ambulance crews don't get nearly that much then? Because, howver strong your 'moral' case the end results depend on your negotiating position and the effectiveness of your union reps. And that of course was Scargill's trump card. As leader of the Yorkshire miners he seemed to deliver. Got elected national leader and seemed to promise, perhaps in early days continue to deliver, more of the same. In the end he was less prepared than his opponent and lost but with different cards/tactics he might have won. Crowe might be cowed too - but there'll be a lot of my colleagues walking to work for months before it happens. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:44
What would you do? - Avant
|
| I'm sure I read somewhere that London bus drivers get paid less than Tube drivers. Anyone know if that's true? If so, I can't think why, as surely driving a bus in London traffic is much more pressured than driving a Tube train? |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:49
What would you do? - -
|
|
>> I'm sure I read somewhere that London bus drivers get paid less than Tube drivers. >> My ex FiL was a garage manager for London Country buses many years ago, when most bus companies were nationalised public services, the drivers and all staff had excellent pay and conditions, rightly so. Deregulation saw the end of that, end of bus services being a public service too mind. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 23:08
What would you do? - Dave_
|
|
>> surely driving a bus in London traffic is much more pressured than driving a Tube train? Not as many lives in your hands. I'm not sure why driving 70-odd souls should be seen as less onerous than driving 500-odd, but there you go. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 00:15
What would you do? - Kevin
|
|
>And that of course was Scargill's trump card. As leader of the Yorkshire miners he seemed to deliver. Only because NCB management didn't have the danglies and political support to tell him enough is enough and to stuff it where the sun don't shine. >Got elected national leader and seemed to promise, perhaps in early days continue to deliver, Scargill's gameplan was to use the union membership to further his own political ambitions. If he had had Joe Coal's interests at heart he would have moderated his demands after a few important victories and continued to nibble away at smaller prizes. If the NUM hadn't been so intransigent and had accepted more efficient working practices the grief probably wouldn't have happened. Scargill chose full scale confrontation at the expense of thousands of miners families. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 07:38
What would you do? - Manatee
|
|
>> Scargill's gameplan was to use the union membership to further his own political ambitions. That is far too easy an accusation to sling around. Evidence? >> Scargill chose full scale confrontation at the expense of thousands of miners families. Scargill knew, or at least correctly predicted, what the plans were for the mines. He had very limited choices in trying to avert it, and it was not his job to be supine and counsel acceptance. The miners were either going to hang together or hang separately. He was also doing what he was elected for for and what many members expected him to do. You can only condemn somebody when you have looked down their end of the telescope. The inevitable proved to be inevitable. The miners probably got a better deal in the end than if they had let it wash over them. To call them lions led by donkeys is an insult they do not deserve. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 07:46
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
...To call them lions led by donkeys is an insult they do not deserve... Agreed. To many miners, Scargill was 'King Arthur'. He was the only guy prepared to stick up for them. It became a personal feud with Thatcher, and each was prepared to fight hard for their corner - nothing wrong with that. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 20:43
What would you do? - John H
|
|
>> To many miners, Scargill was 'King Arthur'. >> In which case, if "lions led by donkeys" is an insult they do not deserve ", then it should be replaced by this insult: "donkeys led by King Arthur who fed to the Lion Thatcher". |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 20:27
What would you do? - Kevin
|
|
>That is far too easy an accusation to sling around. Evidence? In interviews at the time of the strike he openly stated that it was his intention to bring down the Govt. à la Ted Heath in 1974. It was no secret. He still harbours political ambitions it seems, although he's having as much success now as he did then. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 17:27
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
>> Because, howver strong your 'moral' case the end results depend on your negotiating position and >> the effectiveness of your union reps. >> Do you think that's right then? The biggest bully wins, regardless of merit? No wonder there's so much conflict with Unions then. How about a reasonable one, that negotiates, has some credibility? |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 17:29
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
>> >> How about a reasonable one, that negotiates, has some credibility? >> Oh bless me, there are some....it's just the unreasonable ones that need 'sitting on'...and yet there are some folk that still wouldn't cross a picket line, regardless of the angle and whether it was right or not. What a funny world we live in. |
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 21:39
What would you do? - -
|
|
>> How come nurses and ambulance crews don't get nearly that much then? >> This isn't the cold war USSR they don't have to do those jobs, presumably if they wanted better pay they could leave their respective jobs and go on the underground. They could knock up £50K if they want to drive car transporters (well) all hours and stop away most if not all the week, it's all relative, and possibly they won't live long enough to get the pension. >> How does an active and effective union 'work' then. By years of good negotiation and gradually increasing the benefits for the members year on year, that's the job of the union negotiators. Presumably the police, ambulance, nurses and firefighters have their own negotiating teams too, unions by one name or another. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 20 Jun 11 at 21:43
|
|
Mon 20 Jun 11 22:25
What would you do? - Dutchie
|
|
Thats another problem live long enough to enjoy your pension. Work till you drop but not for MPs they deserve a nice retirement. Nurses can't negotiate much gordon our daughter is not getting a pay rise for two years.Also not working is not a option, to many people with mental health problems relying on her.There is a choice you are right but I can't see her becoming a train driver.Doctors got the big pay rises not the nurses. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 07:44
What would you do? - Duncan
|
|
>> There is a choice you are right but I can't see her becoming a >> train driver. Er, why not? |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 08:16
What would you do? - Dutchie
|
|
You got me wrong,nothing wrong with being a train driver good job if you can get it. Nursing is underpayed so are careworkers there so many people working in low payed jobs.And have to put up with it. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 08:48
What would you do? - Duncan
|
|
The underlying point is that there is no point in taking a job as a nurse, say, and then complaining that nurses are underpaid. Ok, life isn't always quite that straightforward, I know, but then the general principle is sound. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 09:12
What would you do? - Dutchie
|
| Thats true,she doesn't complain the job is a vocation like so many people who do these kind of jobs. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 09:54
What would you do? - Zero
|
|
>> The underlying point is that there is no point in taking a job as a >> nurse, say, and then complaining that nurses are underpaid. >> >> Ok, life isn't always quite that straightforward, I know, but then the general principle is >> sound. The principal is far from sound. If it were we would *all* be merchant bankers. Not an ideal scenario Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 23 Jun 11 at 10:44
|
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 18:22
What would you do? - Iffy
|
|
Oh dear, Unison boss Dave Prentis now thinks he's Arthur Scargill: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2006302/We-starved-like-miners-Public-sector-union-boss-threatens-strike-chaos-like-1984-amid-pension-cuts-dispute.html |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 20:45
What would you do? - John H
|
|
Good. Let them strike, and discover just how much worth they have to the Public. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 20:56
What would you do? - Bromptonaut
|
|
We've been discussing whether to join in on 30/6 at work today. Concensus that the union (PCS) has jumped the gun - several of us voted against strike but for action short of whiile negotiations were still taking place. But if Danny Alexander's intemperate comments last week had been ahead of the ballot the turnout/vote might even have cleared 50% of those eligible. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 21:04
What would you do? - John H
|
|
>> But if Danny Alexander's intemperate comments last week had been ahead of the ballot the >> turnout/vote might even have cleared 50% of those eligible. >> Drat! What a pity Danny was too late in provoking your team to strike. Some civil servants just do not know when they have had too much of a good thing for too long. A reality check beckons. Strike, I say, and discover just how little you are really worth. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 21:26
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
>> >> A reality check beckons. Strike, I say, and discover just how little you are really >> worth. >> >> >> That is rather harsh. I detest Prentice's rhetoric, but the fact remains that the vast majority of civil servants do a decent and valuable job without wanting to get involved in stunts like this. Ditto teachers. I do have to say though that the writing has been on the wall for long enough about the public sector pensions, and this sort of stuff will only inflame the resentment that many low-paid workers in the private sector feel. I'm sorry, but the statement that many civil servants are women in low-paid jobs doesn't cut any ice with me. So is my wife, and she doesn't get an index-linked pension. Nor does the unions stubborn resistance to any change in the retirement age help matters. If I am going to have to continue to do my job till I'm 66, so can they. The inevitable outcome of all this will be the passing of the threatened law demanding a majority of votes across the whole workforce rather than just the union members. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 21:34
What would you do? - Bromptonaut
|
|
Harleyman, Most thinking civil servants recognise that the status quo is unsustainable. Career averages and later retirement dates for those still in mid career are inevitable. But there's still much to negotiate around implementation and phasing. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 22:12
What would you do? - Manatee
|
|
Career average earnings is still defined benefit (DB) and unfunded, other than by the taxes of the majority of the private sector whose DB schemes of any kind are becoming a thing of the past. I was in a private sector DB scheme that first closed to new entrants 10 years ago. It became career average 3 years ago, and has now been closed completely to any further accruals. The switch to money purchase will be extremely costly to me and my colleagues. You can imagine how happy I am to be able to contribute to civil servants' defined benefit pensions, even though my own pension has been holed below the waterline :-( The civil servants should be jumping at career average based pensions, not contemplating striking. I can assure them that public sympathy will be hard to come by. |
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 21:39
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
>> I do have to say though that the writing has been on the wall for >> long enough about the public sector pensions, I think all workers should be able to aim for a final salary pension...not just State employed ones....in other words State funded final salary schemes shouldn't be got rid of, instead privately employed workers should be able to have the same privilege. To date, many companies have ditched them. How many will re-instate them when the good times come back? The Govt should legislate and/or have tax breaks for companies to provide them. We will have an ever older population..and without decent pension cover, they'll just be a burden on the State anyway. Last edited by: Westpig on Tue 21 Jun 11 at 21:40
|
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 22:10
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
Westpig, I can't see that happening unless the age balance of the population is heavily tilted back the other way, and since the original "Baby Boom" was instigated by two world wars I really wouldn't want the same again. My two cents; if we stopped wasting all the money we're currently blowing on "fighting climate change", which as most sensible souls are aware is like having an orgy to promore virginity, got real about the fact that living longer means working longer and not expecting the dwindling pool of payers-in to subsidise healthy, vital and fit people sitting on their butts for half their useful lives; told India and China they can have help to feed their poor if we can have our steelworks and motor industry back; and made a capital offence of the pathetic excuse of " massive bonuses get the right people" in the banking industry and the City, we'd be a fair way towards affording a decent State pension for everyone who's worked. The spongers can go stick their elbow crutches where the sun don't shine, of course. ;-) |
|
Wed 22 Jun 11 10:35
What would you do? - Alanovich
|
|
>> told India and China they can have help to feed their poor if we can have our steelworks and motor industry back You really think that India and China stole our motor industry from us? I kind of remember it being our own fault that it went under. |
|
Wed 22 Jun 11 18:06
What would you do? - Harleyman
|
|
>> You really think that India and China stole our motor industry from us? I kind >> of remember it being our own fault that it went under. >> I said nothing about stealing it; it's true that we effectively gave it away. I simply find it ludicrous that we keep swallowing the myth about India being a third world country along with the insidputable fact that we're gradually being taken over by the Chinese, yet we still persist in sending vast amounts of taxpayers' money to do what the Indian and Chinese governments should be doing in the first place, stopping their people dying of starvation.. Last edited by: Harleyman on Wed 22 Jun 11 at 18:07
|
|
Tue 21 Jun 11 21:34
What would you do? - Westpig
|
|
>> Oh dear, Unison boss Dave Prentis now thinks he's Arthur Scargill: >> Even allowing for the ramped up article from the Daily Wail, what planet is this man on? Most people who are not employed by the State, think public sector workers have it cushy at the moment...and a final salary pension of any sorts is something some only dream of.... Why oh why can't they think themsleves lucky they've got what they've got or will get what they will get if it's tweaked down a bit...or they have to work a couple more years to get. |
Forum Version 3.0 - By Khoosys
Car4play Forum
