In January 2011 a hit and run driver was caught on vehicle dashcam hitting a 75 year old man knocking him to the floor, driver made no attempt to stop and was chased and caught a few miles away.
viewer discretion advised (this is not for some of the patronising comments made by the occupants of the car with the onboard cam)
youtu.be/2ex6dHzcgOE
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Silly, stupid woman...this makes me so angry. Wrong side of a pedestrian refuge is asking for trouble. selfish action which only brought grief to an elderley man.
Full marks for the lads for assessing the situation in advance, dropping a passenger off to attend to the victim and bringing the ' chase ' to a safe conclusion...with damning evidence.
Hope she got a bit of time for that !
It reminded me of a few years ago when I was waiting to do a left here onto the main road.
Just as I was going to turm, I looked left again and some lads in a sports car shot past on the wrong side of the refuge. I could so easily have come out into their path.
Ted
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What you describe Ted is the thing that almost every driver never considers. Always look left last in my book.
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As for her the mindless b****, she should NEVER drive again. If that were my old man she wouldn't walk again.
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Another example of overbearing moderation. I hope my female dog never has pups!!
(Life's a bitch, as they say. Knowing you, you'll make up an alternate word anyway)
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 8 Jul 11 at 00:34
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>> Another example of overbearing moderation. I hope my female dog never has pups!!
>>
>> (Life's a b****, as they say. Knowing you, you'll make up an alternate word anyway)
As a 'Moderator' you should try and keep an open mind and make decisions based upon facts and circumstances and not use the one size fits all policy, which of course you don't for everyone do you? There are times that you worry me. Small man, small job? or is that another 'mistake' I have made?
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Martin, every so often you either moan about the swear filter or invent your own words to try and defeat it.
It really is getting quite boring.
If you have to invent your own word (on the basis of rhyming slang) then you already know the word shouldn't be used at all.
In this instance though, calling someone a bitch, regardless who they are, or what they have done is off limits. However, if the swear filter kicked in because you were talking about your female dog, then I or one of the other mods would edit the post because the swear filter is unable to differentiate between when an offensive word is used or a harmless word is used.
In short, the swear filter is too thick to know the difference. That's where the moderators come in as we are able to work it out.
And no. I try and treat everyone equally. Perhaps it's because you flout the forum rules more than most which is why I bring you to task about it more than anyone else.
Now back on topic please.
Vx.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Jul 11 at 00:38
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>Always look left last in my book.
There's a junction near here where turning left without checking will put you straight into oncoming traffic on the wrong side of the road. They're negotiating the 'build-out' obstacle the council saw fit to install about 50yds from the junction.
To make matters worse, there's another junction one car length the other side of the obstacle where the carphounds ignore the Keep Clear markers for traffic turning right.
tinyurl.com/5r9glv4
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I thought I had seen it all but that turned my stomach.
Despite getting drawn in themselves and exceeding the limit - 50 + in a 30 ???? at times I have to congratulate them on covering the injued man and following the woman.
Clear cut dangerous driving in my eyes with excellent camera quality.
Anyone know if she's been weighed off and the result.
A good argument for plain traffic cars.
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Sorry it says it below the video.
2 year suspended, 200 hours community service, 2 year ban and had to pay the victim £500 compensation.
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>> 2 year suspended, 200 hours community service, 2 year ban and had to pay the
>> victim £500 compensation.
Assuming that is accurate, I am almost too exhausted to be disgusted yet again by the ridiculous sentences handed down.
Leaving the scene of an accident is supposed to be a serious offence, but I suppose the truth is that, if you have no moral conscience, you might as well try to leg it, because even if you are caught, with conclusive proof that you hit someone and then legged it, you effectively get a 2 year ban and have to pay £500.
Then you might as well try ignoring the ban and carry on driving, because even if they catch you doing that, they'll just extend the ban a bit.
Appalling.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Fri 8 Jul 11 at 10:14
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...I am almost too exhausted to be disgusted yet again by the ridiculous sentences handed down...
I wasn't there, but: "You can't lock her up, your honour, she's got babies", springs to mind.
Equality for women has yet to reach sentencing.
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>> I wasn't there, but: "You can't lock her up, your honour, she's got babies", springs
>> to mind.
Yeah, I reckoned the same.
As an aside, it is a good advert for those cameras. I got a RoadHawk and was a bit underwhelmed, so I might take a look at these. I see the video seems to have been posted by the company that makes them.
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>> As an aside, it is a good advert for those cameras. I got a RoadHawk
>> and was a bit underwhelmed, so I might take a look at these. I see
>> the video seems to have been posted by the company that makes them.
Scratch that, it seems that they don't make them. I wonder which model they were using.
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This is incredible footage, and those guys who filmed and chased this awful specimen should be commended.
I think this woman's actions are good grounds for a lifetime ban. Not only a blatant disregard for the rules of the road and mowing down a pedestrian as a result, but driving off, and displaying a complete lack of remorse / acknowledgement when caught. How is this person considered psychologically fit to hold a licence, apart from anything else?
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Part of me is glad that the woman was caught and punished, though not sufficiently - having had a relative killed in a head on collision of the type she just avoided, I think that punishment for such unbridled selfishness should involve physical pain
Part of me is also just a bit disturbed at the thought of a car full of young blokes driving round pretending to be traffic cops - If having noted the reg of the red car, they had all stopped at the accident scene, I'd not be as concerned, but on a frosty january morning in low sunlight, I think I prefer my pursuits to be carried out by the professionals, but then again there aren't enough off them - as Fullchat says, a good case for more unmarked traffic cars
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>> Part of me is also just a bit disturbed at the thought of a car full of young blokes driving round pretending to be traffic cops
All I can think is that the red mist descended. Some of his original patronising of the other driver was then followed suit by his own reckless driving to pursue her. What was the constant chiming going on after dropping off his passenger to attend to the old bloke? Was the passenger door not closed properly, did the driver take off his seat belt, but then forget to put it back on? And then there's the confrontation with the woman once he'd managed to pull her over. How would you react if a complete stranger had pulled you over, ranting and raving at you, followed by waving a camera in your face.
I'm not for one moment defending the woman hit and run motorist. She deserved to be locked up and banned from driving for life.
The car cam driver is both a hero and a prize chump, IMHO. He already had the reg number and evidence on camera. He then fancied himself as an unofficial Police Interceptor.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 8 Jul 11 at 12:43
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>>And then there's
>> the confrontation with the woman once he'd managed to pull her over. How would you
>> react if a complete stranger had pulled you over, ranting and raving at you, followed
>> by waving a camera in your face.
I'd probably be a bit upset, if I'd just run someone over and had been caught. Sometimes people do need confronting, as tricky as that can be.
>> I'm not for one moment defending the woman hit and run motorist. She deserved to
>> be locked up and banned from driving for life.
Well the courts let everybody down, as usual, but if he hadn't pursued her where was the evidence for who was driving?
>> The car cam driver is both a hero and a prize chump, IMHO. He already
>> had the reg number and evidence on camera. He then fancied himself as an unofficial
>> Police Interceptor.
I think he should be applauded for what he did. I don't understand why, when some people make a stand against criminals, so many people are keen to portray them as just wanting to play cops and robbers.
The police are, of course, empowered by society to intervene and also trained, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us should just stand by.
If you tackled an armed robber, would it be reasonable to be dismissed as "just wanting to pretend you're in the Sweeney"?
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>> if he hadn't pursued her where was the evidence for who was driving?
Right at the start of the vid clip when she pulled across in front of him at the junction with the traffic lights. There was a clear view of the front of the car and front seat occupants.
>> so many people are keen to portray them as just wanting to play cops and robbers.
I think that was established at the start of the clip as well. Cam driver said "lets follow her for a bit, she's bound to do something else wrong" - or words to that effect.
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Dave, the actions of the guys involved were appropriate given the circumstances. Cant fault them really.
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>> Right at the start of the vid clip when she pulled across in front of
>> him at the junction with the traffic lights. There was a clear view of the
>> front of the car and front seat occupants.
It's certainly not that clear, I think you could introduce considerable doubt there. Also, they couldn't have known that the camera had picked her up. Also, she could always have ditched the car and then claimed it was stolen.
Much better that the driver detained her and got the video of her too.
>> I think that was established at the start of the clip as well. Cam driver
>> said "lets follow her for a bit, she's bound to do something else wrong" -
>> or words to that effect.
I see where you are coming from, but I still don't think they were trying to be traffic cops, just a couple of lads wasting a bit of time driving around, and thinking that they might see something interesting if they followed her. I don't get the impression that they were driving around all day, just looking for motoring violations. It is a good thing they did follow her too, otherwise the incident wouldn't have been captured at all.
Likewise, I would suggest it is a good job that they followed her after the incident, as I mentioned above.
Just a shame the courts let us down again.
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Shocking. Really shocking.
Anyone know how the old boy she hit did? Hope he's ok.
Alex.
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Suppose for the moment that we all accept the camera-driver was right to pursue (not merely follow) and stop the offending driver. Now consider a more trivial example of bad driving - such as the driver who emerged from a petrol station in front of me this morning, crossing my path and forcing me to brake to avoid a collision.
Would I have been right to pursue and stop that driver? If the answer is no - and mine is - then where is the line beyond which such vigilantism becomes acceptable, especially when it puts other road users at risk, as I'd argue this fellow did?
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>> Would I have been right to pursue and stop that driver? If the answer is
>> no - and mine is - then where is the line beyond which such vigilantism
>> becomes acceptable,
Probably at the point where the old boy was sent flying.
specially when it puts other road users at risk, as I'd argue this
>> fellow did?
I would argue he didn't, notice he needed to overtake? that was done with care and consideration for the circumstances. Whilst driving faster than the legal limit, I didnt see anything dangerous or wild about his driving.
Let us turn this round,. If you and your mate saw an old woman bashed on the head and mugged and the oik legs it down the road, would you leave your mate to look after the old woman and chase and corner the suspect? Would you criticise anyone who did?
I would argue that when the old man was knocked down the situation is identical
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 8 Jul 11 at 14:21
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I would agree with Zero. Its a question of making a proportionate response. Standing by and doing nothing is the response of far too many unfortunately
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>> Would I have been right to pursue and stop that driver? If the answer is
>> no - and mine is - then where is the line beyond which such vigilantism
>> becomes acceptable, especially when it puts other road users at risk, as I'd argue this
>> fellow did?
As others have said it is a case of being proportionate. "Who decides what is proportionate?", you might ask. Well, at the time it has to be the person who is intervening, but if they overstep the mark, they will obviously be judged by the proper authorities.
I think using the term vigilantism is a little inflammatory. All the guy did what pursue and stop the woman. A vigilante is generally somebody who carries out some form of punishment (killing, beating them, etc) without express legal authority.
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I can't get very worked up about this either way. The camera boys appeared to drive in a competent and controlled manner when they went into pursuit mode and overtook the woman hooligan.
They were definitely playing fuzz-cars though, and when they stopped the woman they were close to playing fuzz. I am slightly surprised that none of our police buddies seem to have expressed disapproval actually, as impersonating is traditionally frowned on by the police.
Surely the correct thing to do was to report the car and its number immediately it clipped the old boy, stop to give first aid/transport to hospital if necessary, and be ready to give identification and other evidence in court? On the whole, as I have said often, I dislike the tendency some have to run screaming to the authorities about every little thing like the class sneak, 'Sir, Sir, Williams is copying my work and playing with himself, Sir!'. But this is a case where I would certainly have given them a bell myself.
I don't think the pedestrian could have been too badly hurt, or she would have been banged up, nippers or no nippers. I wouldn't regard a ten-year ban as being out of order either.
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At the risk of sounding a bit Daily Mail, these chaps did what I hope someone would do if it were a relative of mine that had been left for dead in the road. The car could have been stolen, had false plates on it, or been registered to someone else, and there was a very real risk that if she'd been allowed to drive away from the scene and disappear, she would never have been caught.
I think they did well. They didn't drive dangerously, they didn't threaten or abuse the woman once they caught up with her, and they ensured she didn't get away with it. If there were more people like this, criminals would have a much harder time.
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I don't know. I'm not hugely happy with vigilante self-appointed traffic cops. I reckon that if I'd been a lone woman in my car and looked in my rearview mirror I'd have begun to be nervous about the car full of chavs behind me who were evidently tailing me. It's not far from that to say that the boys might have been a significant cause of the accident - and indeed a mitigation for the failure to stop after the accident.
That said they were perfectly at liberty to make a citizens arrest if they so wished. But were they justified in doing, what, 50 in a 30, probably not.
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>> I reckon that
>> if I'd been a lone woman in my car and looked in my rearview mirror
>> I'd have begun to be nervous about the car full of chavs behind me who
>> were evidently tailing me. It's not far from that to say that the boys might
>> have been a significant cause of the accident - and indeed a mitigation for the
>> failure to stop after the accident.
She didnt have the brains to use that as a defence. Mind you as her driving that morning was a catalogue of stroppy, pushy, stupid and downright (as it happens) nearly lethal driving, i doubt she even considered looking in her rear view mirror.
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I wouldn't disagree with any of that DP. And I see that others are taking the same view.
But in this case the miscreant was a fairly unthreatening type, a silly unscrupulous young woman late for work. Genuine thugs, drivers of the sort the police themselves sometimes stop chasing for fear of an accident involving third parties, would have been another matter altogether. The outcome if the camera boys caught and stopped them might have been a bit different too. How far is a concerned citizen justified in going? And how often does he really know what he's doing?
If I were clocked for doing 70 in a 30, and explained when pulled that I was chasing a badly driven car, I would expect a certain amount of flak from the authorities at least.
I'm glad the camera boys got away with it. But they were also actually asking for trouble.
EDIT: naturally I don't give a damn about them exceeding the speed limit. Indeed I often find people who don't a bit of a nuisance.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 8 Jul 11 at 17:13
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Well...my post above happened again, at the same junction about 30 mins ago
tinyurl.com/677vb5e
I was in a queue of traffic...where the bus is but further back, about 10 cars from the island.
4 cars sped past the queue and went on the wrong side of the bollards to turn right. In my other post I was coming out of the right side to turn towards the camera when I confronted one.
The last one of our 4 today couldn't make it due to oncoming traffic and had to force his way back into the queue.
Sadly, all the police were a couple of hundred yards further on dealing with the cause of the queue......a body under a blanket at the next traffic lights and an ambualance parked in the middle of the road.....I wonder if my daughter was one of the crew.
Mad impatience !
Ted
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Something about the camera boys suggests that they may be coppers themselves, perhaps still trainees or community heat, or off duty. The language and demeanour with the woman driver, the confidence with which they took off in pursuit, the driving style... just a thought, but it's been nagging at me. I only looked at the clip once.
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... just a thought, but it's been nagging at me...
I had the same thought, although perhaps they were copying what they'd heard on the various police fly-on-the wall TV series.
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I too wondered. But I suspect they do this quite a bit, hence the camera?
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I know the area, used to drink in the pub she passed
The North Star,.
www.google.com/maps?q=heston&hl=en&ll=51.491578,-0.381367&spn=0,0.022724&sll=53.442468,-2.273054&sspn=0.0364,0.090895&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.491922,-0.381377&panoid=AqUVd2wAhIitW2dGJSPEpw&cbp=12,87.04,,0,13.03
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 8 Jul 11 at 19:16
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...But I suspect they do this quite a bit...
A few years ago I saw a Sunderland AFC footballer - who had a reputation for getting into drunken scrapes - leave a pub and get into his Merc.
I briefly thought about following, but decided against it.
About three miles down the road, he had a spectacular crash and was later done for leaving the scene and falsely claiming his father was driving.
Thus another scoop passed me by.
Never make the NoW me, particularly not now.
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You are not alone Iffy.
In 1982 or so I was sent to Northern Ireland during the Maze hunger strike by the French daily whose London correspondent I was for a year or so. The UDA spokesman I spent an hour or two interviewing and extensively quoted was a craggy, slightly scary but perfectly pleasant sort of heavy, with real massive tattooed, tooled-up skinheads wandering about further down the corridor. He was called Sam Duddy and I took him to be five or ten years older than me.
It was only when he died a year or two back that I read this in his obituary: at night he had been a drag artiste under the name Samantha in a UDA nightspot somewhere. My employers would have enjoyed that detail, and so would I. It also explained the slightly odd fleeting expression that crossed one or two faces when his name was mentioned in Belfast. Oh yes, and he was younger than me.
Just shows how useless hacks can be, especially when they feel they ought to be being serious.
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>> perhaps they were copying what they'd heard on the various police fly-on-the wall TV series.
Perhaps. But they seemed to have absorbed the style better than people usually do from watching TV. They seemed to have got it in the canteen at least.
Perhaps police backroom civilians, IT wonks, something like that, cautiously trying their strength at the sharp end...
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If those chaps are complete members of the public they need a decent letter of thanks. There's a time and place to step in...and sometimes difficulty deciding when to do so.
Not in this case.
When you mow someone down like that...then callously drive off, i'd expect someone to step in and 'do the right thing'...and would be disappointed if they didn't.
I cannot see anything wrong with what they did. Fair enough the initial mutterings were slightly over the top, but they weren't really wrong, she was very impatient..and the early wrong side of the road right turn was awful.
When they dropped someone off to help the pedestrian, then went after the other driver..textbook stuff really, inc the overtake of the Escort, nothing leary, all considered.
Imagine if that was your relative that she'd run over.
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Your attitude is sporting and generous Westpig.
But if they had had an accident chasing the woman you or someone like you would still have had to run them in, sympathetically or not.
Do I gather that you too think it possible they may not be totally civilian?
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>> Do I gather that you too think it possible they may not be totally civilian?
>>
I don't think they are connected to the Police. A Police Officer would have declared it on the 999 call and the beggining of that was still left for us to hear. A Special Constable also has a warrant card and would no doubt have declared it early (they usually do), which only really leaves a PCSO or civilian...i'd have thought they'd have piped up and said they were employed by the Police, although i'm possibly wrong on that.
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I watched the beginning of the fim a few times,did she feel that she was followed and got scared?
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Watch the film again what she did and not stop after she smashed into the oldchap is terrible.
Iam no traffic cop any comments?
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My first thought was was that they were a couple of wanabee Traffic Cops but as the incident progressed the manner of driving was what I would have done credit to a professional. The footage could well have been recorded form a 'real' Traffic car.
Recording the number and passing it on for a follow up is all very well but its so much easier evidentially to strike whilst the irons hot, so to speak. Delayed investigation allows the suspect to make up some weird and wonderful story which can become difficult to disprove.
What I found disturbing was that after such an incident she was very quick to offer half an excuse. Potentially a woman who would really give an investigation the runaround.
Ultimately the boys did good and nothing went wrong for them.
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Last summer there was a huge rammy outside our work which involved a group of about 30 drunken youths and one got stabbed. This was at 2pm.
A few of us went out to see what was going on especially when one ended up in the river. There were other passer bys and a few of my colleagues watching from a window.
After the event, during discussions, it became obvious that we all had different versions of who had done what. No one, had thought to film it from a mobile. To do so at the time I believe would have appeared crass but in hindsight it could have given the police much needed evidence and clarity.
I think the driver in this instance showed great courage, quick thinking and excellent decision making. I know that when I was faced with that scenario last year I did not make correct decisions, did not think logically and was of no use to anyone.
Its a tough call to make in a split second. Well done that guy!
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...it became obvious that we all had different versions of who had done what...
I was a witness to a fatal crash in which a car which was being towed around a mini-roundabout hit a bus stop on the exit to the roundabout, killing a child.
Me and a photographer were in a car approaching the roundabout when this happened.
In my statement, I said the car and towed car came out of the road to our right.
The photographer - who was driving - correctly said we had been behind both cars for several hundred metres.
I've no idea where I got my version from, but it illustrates how easily accounts of the same incident can differ.
Fortunately, it made no difference because the guy in the towed car admitted causing death by dangerous driving.
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It's a very well known fact that witnesses remember things differently..and remember things incorrectly.
Which is why i've always found it farcical when witnesses are questioned intently at court and the most minor point is made out to be a major discrepancy...when that's the norm.
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>> It's a very well known fact that witnesses remember things differently..and remember things incorrectly.
>>
Many years ago, prior to mobile phones, a great friend of mine ( and his wife) was number one in the queue behind a small saloon that was going up an incline on a snow covered country road, when the lead vehicle veered across the road and had a head on with a truck.
My friend having no first aid skills and with several vehicles behind him drove on to get help.
At the inquest a witness stated the he was immediately behind the vehicle that hit the truck.
My friend recalls how nervous he was then having to stand up and say that their vehicle was the one at the head of following vehicles.
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Knocked off my bike in Leeds a few years back. Tried to drive away but stopped by HGV driver swinging his lorry across the road. Despite his evidence, police not interested in prosecution.
No time for them at all.
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>> Which is why i've always found it farcical when witnesses are questioned intently at court
>> and the most minor point is made out to be a major discrepancy...when that's the
>> norm.
Well, it's a good way for a barrister to discredit the other side's witness, isn't it.
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I've re-watched the film on a better screen and I withdraw my specific comment about the pursuing driver putting the public at risk - his hazard perception and decision-making looked very good. I do still need convincing that we should encourage any driver in that situation to do the same thing, especially given the risk of a violent confrontation at the end of the pursuit, or of pressing the pursued driver into something even more dangerous.
What do the police advise their own drivers on deciding when and when not to pursue?
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>> Well, it's a good way for a barrister to discredit the other side's witness, isn't
>> it.
Yes. I've worked that bit out.
It's the bit where the court system is supposed to establish the truth..and then dispense justice according to that truth....that's the bit i'm having problems with.
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Hit and Run driver in Southall - dash cam footage - Ted
