The average lifespan of cars in the UK is 13.5 years, but what's the reason for most to be scrapped?
Accident damage?
Corrosion?
Wear and tear resulting from high mileage?
Other?
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13.5 years is older than I'd have guessed, but I imagine most end up in the scrap yard because wear and tear leads to failures that are uneconomic to repair.
I don't remember when I last saw a really rusty car, other than some late '90s / early '00's Mercedes and Fords of a similar vintage
Peter
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Certainly the only one we've scrapped, just last year (1996 Megane hatch 1.4), was due to the cost of repairs exceeding the value of the car. The engine was still sweet however. I have my doubts that the repairs deemed necessary by the MOT centre were genuinely required but that's another story!
Last edited by: Mike H on Sat 9 Jul 11 at 10:12
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13.5 years may well be the average now, i have a suspicion that will reduce to around 10 or less as later models become the higher proportion over time.
Expensive electronic component failure will see the end of many, with constant neglect aiding and abetting loss.
You only have to read car forum's technical query sections to find that many people haven't the foggiest idea of how to make a vehicle last, can't get hands dirty, never give a thought to slapping some grease/Waxoyl around important parts like brake pipes, or replacing cambelt/brake fluid/coolant/lubricants/filters.
Then there's the image thing.
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Used to be 16 years - presumably before the influence of the disgraceful 'scrappage' scheme.
I would guess electronic component failure exceeding overall value is the main life-ending event for most vehicles although the situation may be different somewhere like France, where depreciation isn't quite so much like falling off a cliff.
I wonder if the life expectancy of your average Volvo or Honda has gone down in line with other makes?
My Honda is coming up to 13.5 years old...
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>> I wonder if the life expectancy of your average Volvo or Honda has gone down
>> in line with other makes?
>> My Honda is coming up to 13.5 years old...
>> a
I'd hate to see a Civic FN3 at 10 years old, the suspension will have shaken it to pieces by that time, the serious point being that Honda quality ain't what it used to be.
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A few years ago mechanical failure wasn't really a problem, neither were electrics, most of us were quite capable of major car work and scrap yards often kept us going for peanuts. Corrosion was the problem.
However nearly all of us were aquainted with a handy chap with a welding torch...no not Big Ron of the Scrubs...and for a reasonable cash bung we could keep our rusting jalopies going for a long time before they terminated.
Cars do still rust, some worse than others, but those handy welding fellers have disappeared.
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My 14 year old 165k Mondeo went to car heaven last year purely because the cost of a timing belt, exhaust, rear shocks, battery and a bit of welding to re-attach the back bumper would have come to far more than the car was worth, especially with the lucky dip on an MoT looming.
The rust problems that were virtually eradicated in the nineties seem to be returning though, I've seen quite a few cars less than a decade old with surprising amounts of the stuff appearing. The Ford Ka being a prime example, I saw an 03 reg in the week that looked about thirty years old, it was rotting on virtually every panel.
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I suspect that most people buying new cars are happier to buy with a car that will be relatively trouble free over a ten year lifespan and which is then scrapped rather than a car that needs constant attention but might last a few years longer. I certainly am.
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>> I suspect that most people buying new cars are happier to buy with a car
>> that will be relatively trouble free over a ten year lifespan and which is then
>> scrapped rather than a car that needs constant attention but might last a few years
>> longer.
I suspect most new cars sold in the UK are on their second owner by their third birthday, or shortly after.
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Exactly, although I suspect more people are now keeping cars for 4or 5 years. Why should they or the manufactures care that the effective life span of the car is around 10 years. They want reliability when they own it and a reasonable residual value.
When buying a car They are not really concerned how easy it will be for someone to repair it as a banger.
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>>
>> When buying a car They are not really concerned how easy it will be for
>> someone to repair it as a banger.
>>
Precisely, I keep my cars for 2 years and rarely 3 and I frankly don't care whether they make it to 15 - whereas my washing machine / TV / HiFi I like to last ;-)
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>> Precisely, I keep my cars for 2 years and rarely 3 and I frankly don't
>> care whether they make it to 15 - whereas my washing machine / TV /
>> HiFi I like to last ;-)
#
Why? whats the difference?
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Good question - why? We're the same as IC - we have new cars but the washing machine is 20 years old and the dishwasher a splendid 25 (both Bosch - we'd buy the same again. I hope they gain as many sales through their good reputation as they lose through the longevity of people's existing machines).
But there's no fun in buying white goods. You do it as and when you have to. Some people buy cars as white goods, although they probably aren't members of motoring forums like this one. But for car enthusiasts (you can't have many dishwasher enthusiasts.....I hope) and for anyone who enjoys driving part of the fun is choosing the make and model, and going for test drives. Others value the image their car gives, whether through make, model or just newness.
I must go and load the dishwasher. What joy....
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>> #
>> Why? whats the difference?
>>
Good point, never really considered it really, perhaps relative utility ? I'll give it some thought....
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>> Precisely, I keep my cars for 2 years and rarely 3 and I frankly don't
>> care whether they make it to 15 - whereas my washing machine / TV /
>> HiFi I like to last ;-)
So even if it was the best car you'd ever owned you would still sell it after two years and maybe end up with something half as good. Why? To keep within the warranty?
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I can only go off me and my fathers recent history, as there probably isn't much point on talking about minis scrapped in the 1970's due to rust.
Anyway
1998 - Scrapped an 87 E reg Lada, it had terminal rust, blue smoke, running on 3 cylinders, only 3 gears worked etc. There was really no point on trying to put it for the MOT.
2002 - Punto 55SX 96 N reg, wasn't scrapped but was written of in an accident and became a cat C, that car lasted to 2006 with a new owner.
2007 - Scrapped an 95 N reg Escort 1.6 LX, was scrapped because the car was left in a damp garage as it was SORNED for a year due to my dads injuries. Took it for an MOT and the rust had eaten just about everything. Brakes, chassis, steering etc.
2007 - Scrapped my own 96 N reg Fiesta 1.1 MK3, due to needing a new engine.
2009 - Sold my 96N MK4 Fiesta due to excessive rust, sold it to a new owner on the understanding it was a rust bucket, he scrapped it two months later.
2010 - Sold my 99V Corsa due to it needing a new head gasket, car still on the road with a new owner.
The 1997 R Fiesta is still on the road, but waiting its 10th MOT (13 years old) next month, so it may well end up being scrapped aged 13.
Certainly in our case it has been a combination of things, but rust is usually what makes another wise minor engine problem terminal.
None of mine or my dads cars were scrapped due to high milleage, more the conditions in which the cars were used in. E.g neglect by previous owners and lots of city miles.
Still not sure what to with my Panda, need to do the man maths and work out if its worth keeping for ever, or selling and buying another brand new car with a full warranty. I like to think I will keep it till it dies.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sat 9 Jul 11 at 17:51
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>> I like to think I will keep it till it dies.
+1
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>> Still not sure what to with my Panda, need to do the man maths and
>> work out if its worth keeping for ever, or selling and buying another brand new
>> car with a full warranty. I like to think I will keep it till it
>> dies.
>>
So... about 7 years then...
Most new cars will be uneconomic to repair in 7-8 years.
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Nothing under that bonnet that scares me. A simple 8v valve engine any mechanic can fix, just the usual ECU stuff. The only things likely to kill it is a power steering failure or a CANBUS fault which I admit could be a nightmare to fix.
But as modern cars go the Panda is very simple.
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It is the electronics that are beginning to kill cars nowadays.
A Grand for an ECU on a 7 year old car that is worth £1500? Add the diagnosis time, and fitting...
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I visit scrapyards occasionally and my observations are:
Most cars are>10 years old. So little after 2000 (These scrapyards do not deal in modern reclaimable salvage but end of life cars)
Apart from the crashed ones, a look under the bonnets reveal lack of maintenance by last owners in say 75% of cases.
When a car is > 10 years old, buyers tend to spend as little as possible on maintenance except that legally needed to pass MOTs.
So engine oil changes? No. Knackered wiper blades/spare wheels/exhausts/ belts.
Not much rust now - 30 years ago lots of holes in sills and doors and floors. Rare now.
Lots of minor crashes - repair uneconomic. Lots of older Mercs and bigger BMWs - not maintained.
Exception to rust comments : Ford Escorts/Fiestas... rot badly everywhere.
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Thinking about the bangernomics vehicles I've pensioned off over the last 10 years:-
12 year old Cavalier mk3 @ 196K - expensive coolant hoses disintegrating, suspension knackered, various other minor faults. some rust but nothing major.
11 year old Omega @ 176K - heat matrix leaking beyond radweld fixing, dodgy electrics due to wiring meltdown, other minor stuff, no noticeable rust.
12 year old Omega @185K - emissions failure with no obvious fix, sticky ignition barrel, usual cumulative minor niggles, no noticeable rust
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Last two here
94 Cavalier, gearbox internals punched hole in casing. 16 years old
99 Primera, accident 12 years old.
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.*********
Maybe that should be a new business I go into.
I really don't get this new ECU £1500 crap, most the time it is just a single dead capacitor or maybe some overheated MOSFETS. However the tricky part is diagnosing the true problem.
However on all the cars I have had, I have always been very good at diagnosing electrical problems, from faulty throttle sensors to dirty MAFs, however ask to change some spark plugs and I would not have a clue!
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>> Maybe that should be a new business I go into.
You should indeed Rattie, and don't forget some discount for your old mates here..:-)
I've had ECU's repaired twice, both MB units, one with output transistors blown, regular fault on MB's with that type of unit. 1 multi pin (2 x 48 iirc) connector corroded on another.
Both would have been around £1500 if i'd needed new units.
I researched, as best i could, the likely repair centres when the first (multi) failed, and after several phone calls to those incapable of the repair (no parts usually, but not sure if all capable) i elected to send to the Isle of Wight.
Indeed the replacement connector worked fine, but by the time postage etc was on the bill was £350.
When my second one failed (different car, output transistors) i again researched and found several others were able to repair and considerably cheaper, say £150 to £200.
So off goes my precious ECU to one side of the country, the repairer unable to find the fault and diagnostics charge of roughly £50 plus postage saw it returned.
Off goes ECU to the other side of the country, 'can't get the parts and xyz has melted', do i want the ''scrap''unit back...aha i smells me a rat, yes i do want my ECU back at around £50 diagnostics....disappointment in voice at other end of phone.
So i send it to the man that can at a price on the Isle of Wight, no problems here, the unit is diagnosed with the fault, returned repaired and working fine, this time around £325...xyz hadn't melted or burned out at all!
Valuable lessons learned.
A clever website does not mean the workshop is any use, wildly differing capabilities in this industry...the internet means we can find workshops, or rather their adverts, but it means we are remote from actually meeting them.
I believe the second fellow who wanted to scrap the unit was going to break it for increasingly rare parts (older designs), i thhink he lied to me...anyone considering sending their eletronic units for repair, note all serial numbers on them and make some unique marks on the main body to ensure a returned 'scrapper' really is yours.
If you think about it, simply recieving and repacking and sending the unit back non repairable would be a nice little earner at £50 a go, loosen the screws to make it convincing, an even better earner if the customer believes the bull and lets you keep an easily repairable unit.
The most valuable lesson was, once you've found someone good then stick with them, the repairer i used and recommend is Avilec, i was an idiot to try and get a competent repair elsewhere, and it nearly cost me dear.
I understand BBA Reman are highly regarded too though haven't used them.
With the ever increasing use of these throwaway controllers there can never be enough competent service workshops, i hope you investigate Rattie.
EDIT....might i suggest investigating electronics overhaul for cars like MB BMW Lexus and possibly more exotic makes, these are the cars likely to be kept for many years by their owners, where more common cars may not be.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 10 Jul 11 at 08:06
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So what registration is a 12.5 year old car?
Am in Bulgaria just now and many of these cars must be 20-30 years old including a few Maestros and mark 3 Escorts with not a hint of tin worm.
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>> So what registration is a 12.5 year old car?
98-99ish. It all depends on the determination of the owner to keep the car going. Which means good basic maintenance to start with, and knowing that cars weak spots and dealing with them. As madf says, most cars in scrapyards have just been driven with the bare minimum of maintenance - by the time they fail the MOT they have a number of faults that aren't worth sorting, unless it's a rare model worth preserving.
Older Volvo's aren't immune to problems, but they have attributes that owners appreciate, so they will pay to keep the cars on the road. I still see plenty of 850's and older V70's.
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So is that X or Y reg territory?
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>> So is that X or Y reg territory?
R or S reg. X or Y reg you're looking at the era of bad tinworm for many makes.
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>>I still see plenty of 850's
>> and older V70's.
To answer my own thread, I don't see these during rush hour though. Mainly during the middle of the day like other older machinery.
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>> So what registration is a 12.5 year old car?
A car 12.5 years old was first registered in January 1999, so the year identifier on the number plate is S ~ August 1998 to February 1999.
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>> If you think about it, simply recieving and repacking and sending the unit back non repairable would be
>> a nice little earner at £50 a go, loosen the screws to make it convincing, an even better earner if the customer
>> believes the bull and lets you keep an easily repairable unit.
That sounds like an even better business plan to me!
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>> I really don't get this new ECU £1500 crap, most the time it is just
>> a single dead capacitor or maybe some overheated MOSFETS. However the tricky part is diagnosing the true problem.
>>
It more than likely is something simple.
But, you (as GB relates) have to;
1/ know that there are repairers out there.
2/ Find a trustworthy one
3/ Do without the car whilst the ECU is away - often for over a week.
4/ spend money firstly on finding out it was the ECU not a sensor or wiring.
Many people will (and do!) either spend out on a new unit, or dispose of the car as it is.
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From my point of view, it is the appalling road surfaces in the UK that will cause failure of cars now. My once new Golf (now nearly two years old) has been battered and shaken by driving over sunken inspection covers, potholes and rough road surfaces etc. Belgian pavé is not needed for car testing, just drive a few thousand miles on our roads - it's an utter disgrace considering the £35b extracted from we motorists.
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"battered and shaken by driving over sunken inspection covers, potholes "
By using a cunning and little used skill known as "looking where you're going" it is often (admittedly not always) possible to avoid them. :-)
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>> "battered and shaken by driving over sunken inspection covers, potholes "
>>
This problem does need inputting into your selection criteria at car purchase time, especially if it's a private purchase.
Hence many peoples preference for old school 4x4's, that along with relative simplicity and half equivalent normal 4x4 derived VED was a major contribution to our choice of Hilux in 07.
Ironically enough it's not a problem on the open road, assuming enough well heeled/connected people live in the area, but it's a big consideration in the urban area where owning a 4x4 can result in strange reactions among some people.
Attn Oldgit.
What tyre spec came with your Golf, and would you buy another, if so what would you have different?...might be nice to have an update of your overall ownership experience if you'd like to.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 10 Jul 11 at 10:33
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>> My once new Golf (now nearly two years old)
>> has been battered and shaken by driving over sunken inspection covers, potholes and rough road
>> surfaces etc.
Golfs are renowned for being fragile. You should have bought a Ford Focus.
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>> It is the electronics that are beginning to kill cars nowadays.
>> A Grand for an ECU on a 7 year old car that is worth £1500?
>> Add the diagnosis time, and fitting...
>>
A mate of mine replaced the ECU on his american car. A hundred and twenty quid.
Only the british motorist is prepared to have his pants pulled down when it comes to car repairs, it would seem.
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>> So even if it was the best car you'd ever owned you would still sell
>> it after two years and maybe end up with something half as good. Why? To
>> keep within the warranty?
>>
The warranty isn't a big factor for me, my honest answer is that I get bored of a car after 3 years, about 12 months after acquiring a car I start to ponder about its replacement. It's a character flaw I guess....
However, if I ever can't afford to change my car then I won't.
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Sun 10 Jul 11 at 13:23
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>> The warranty isn't a big factor for me, my honest answer is that I get
>> bored of a car after 3 years, about 12 months after acquiring a car I
>> start to ponder about its replacement. It's a character flaw I guess....
Fair enough.
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The longest I kept a car whas my oldman VW Jetta got it after he died and drove it for 7 years.
About twelve years when it went,left hand drive petrol/lpg gas.Replaced the engine with a reconditioned unit valves where burnt out due to the gas and got tired.Had the auto box reconditioned.The car was the orginial Jetta Golf with a boot.Also the petrol filling pipe was rusted away needed replacing.Had a few Old Beetles to over ten years sold them still ok driving and rust wise.
Kept a Mitsubishi Space Star for 5 years got bored with the car but excellent petrol 1.6 Engine.
Now drive a Ford Focus 1.6 TDCI Motability car strong car seems to cope with the potholes.;)
I am in two minds to buy the car after three years still two to go.
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I think most people just don't understand it (ignorance?).
You all know I got my KIA for fifty quid because the previous owner got rid of it at MOT, tax and insurance time as it would've cost him more than he thought it was worth. A set of disc pads (£25), a rear wheel bearing (£25) and an exhaust (£150 I think - that hurt!) saw me with a runabout that's lasted four years, although it has had other stuff thrown at it (oil, filters, plugs, belts, anti-freeze, t-stat, another wheel bearing, brake shoes, another rear silencer- I didn't expect that! and probably more) because I like a reliable motor. It sits in the drive and is used as a local runabout (and bounced round fields).
If the average owner has to pay for this stuff to be done, then they probably think that it's cheaper to buy another car for a similar sum, but ignore the expenditure it may incur.
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>> If the average owner has to pay for this stuff to be done, then they
>> probably think that it's cheaper to buy another car for a similar sum, but ignore
>> the expenditure it may incur.
Precisely. When a car gets to this age/value, the cost of replacing the car with something significantly better should be the value used to make the decision to keep or get rid, rather than the value of the car. And if it's a car you know intimately, the cost of replacing it with something better can be surprisingly high.
My wife's uncle ran a G registration Sierra 2.0 Ghia Twin Cam he'd owned from nearly new until two years ago on this logic. It was only when it needed £600 worth of welding underneath, coinciding with a load of mechanical problems, and he was looking at about £1500 to get it through another test, that he took the decision to give up on it. He was happy (well, relatively so) to spend £200-£300 at a time for minor repairs, because £200-£300 used cars were highly likely to have been hiding even more serious problems. £1500 could get you something in lovely condition in today's market.
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>> t-stat, another wheel bearing, brake shoes, another rear silencer- I didn't
>> expect that! and probably more)
>> because I like a reliable motor.
So, take the couch over there, tell me now, what's your definition of reliable?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 11 Jul 11 at 20:21
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Over 4 years these things are almost service items on a banger.
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>> >> t-stat, another wheel bearing, brake shoes, another rear silencer- I didn't
>> >> expect that! and probably more)
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>> >> because I like a reliable motor.
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>> So, take the couch over there, tell me now, what's your definition of reliable?
>>
If you complete any journey, surely the car is "reliable" - you can rely on it to get you somewhere when you want it to.
Did any of the items above cause you to abandon it at the side of the road?
I suppose there is a lack of availability when replacing worn out parts, but that's not unreliability.
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If you complete any journey, surely the car is "reliable".
Not to me. Reliability means having completed enough journeys (or whatever other task a device may have been designed for) to make me confident it will complete the next one. In fact, I'd turn the statement on its head:
If it fails to complete one journey, the car has become "unreliable".
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>> So, take the couch over there, tell me now, what's your definition of reliable?
So the Kia cost £500 quid to buy and get roadworthy and perhaps a grand over 4 more years to keep going? Not clear which, if any, of the owners spends were roadside failures rather than sorting trouble or precautionary replacements
Compared with depreciation on anything vaguely recent it's a snip.
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>>So the Kia cost £500 quid to buy and get roadworthy and perhaps a grand over 4 more years
No, about £200 to buy and get through its first MOT. I've probably spent another couple of hundred since. You could argue that things like thermostat, plugs, oil, filters, cambelt and fanbelt may not have been necessary to keep it running, but it's used as an everyday transport as well as off road. If any of those items had failed it wouldn't have been deemed reliable.
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Average lifespan of cars in the UK - PeterS
