A ban on smoking in cars where children are present may be introduced in Wales.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14142992
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How, pray tell, are the police planning to enforce this when they can't keep people off their phones? *slaps forehead*
I agree it's a problem, and the issue is how to deal with it, not just a blanket ban. Interestingly, the dodgy smoker's rights (smokers have different rights to everyone else?) group FOREST reckon that only 7% of smoking parents will smoke around their children in the car.
Since everyone knows it's wrong, is it not impossible that some parents, feeling guilty, will tick the box on the survey that says "I never smoke around my children"?
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Unenforceable. The smoking ban in works' cars/vans is enforced by the council. I have only heard of one case in Wales (somewhere near Harleyman's square mile) which resulted in a publicly funded courtroom pantomime...not sure of the outcome, but it certainly wasn't good for the tax-payers.
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Is there any proof that some second-hand tobacco smoke is more harmful than the exhaust emissions of all the cars in front?
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Cigarette smoke isn't good for you but neither is walking down city streets if this report, dated today, is worth the paper it is written on.
14 Jul 2011
TINY particles emitted by diesel exhaust fumes can raise the risk of heart attacks, according to new research.
Scientists from Edinburgh University discovered ultra-fine particles produced when diesel burns are harmful to blood vessels and can increase the chances of blood clots forming in arteries, leading to a heart attack or stroke.
The research sheds further light on the risks of traffic fumes after another study from Italy warned high levels of exposure to tiny particles in emissions can dramatically raise the risk of deep-vein thrombosis.
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Different scales of risk, Meldrew. Habitually walking on city streets doesn't kill half the people who do it.
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I don't think smoking kills half the people who do it either, certainly not passive smoking in cars.
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Careful what you wish for Meldrew. Removing diesel powered vehicles will not eliminate respiritory disease.
PMTs are an issue from diesels for which extra filters and traps are being introduced to reduce the polutants. What is ALWAYS missed are the other environmental polutants.
ALL vehicles release non-exhaust emissions which carry on unchecked.
The brake dust that builds up on wheel rims is not all the brake dust released from that wheels brake. Tyre wear, where does the chemical from the tyre go ? The worn out road surface where does that go ?
All these extra emissions are constantly churned around by passing vehicles.
Compare the brake dust on the wheels of a car with the exhaust polutants sticking around the exhaust pipe.
PMTs have been researched and the scientists have an idea what happens with them in the lungs.
What about the copper and antimony from brakes ?
There's a lot of non-exhaust emissions which are conveniently ignored.
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I am not wishing for anything! I am drawing people's attention to research suggesting that diesel fumes have many ways of affecting one's health. Let's face it, almost anything that goes up one's nose, apart from oxygen and nitrogen has a degree of risk.
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As Rob says its going to be nigh on impossible to enforce. Might be do-able in Cardiff, Swansea or even Wrexham if enforcers loiter at traffic lights. But on the open road in your Bailiwick?
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You could look at it another way: the laws against murder and armed robbery aren't intended to eliminate them altogether. It would be nice if they did, of course, but no-one really expects it. But it's a safe bet that they'd happen a lot more if they weren't illegal.
Plenty of people took to wearing seat belts when doing so was made compulsory. Some still don't, of course, but the law made a difference. This one could do the same.
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>>
>> Plenty of people took to wearing seat belts when doing so was made compulsory. Some
>> still don't, of course, but the law made a difference. This one could do the
>> same.
>>
You're adding apples and oranges there. Wearing a seat belt stops your face getting mashed when it contacts the windscreen. It's a no-brainer, and I'd suggest it's probably saved more lives and serious injuries per incident than any other piece of legislation, motoring or otherwise.
Banning smoking in cars is more likely to cause someone's face to get mashed; probably that of the jobsworth council official who issues the ticket with a bit of luck.
All the antis point to the alleged "risk" of a cigarette causing the driver to lose control; utter cock of course but you can be sure that if it did become law they'd risk phoning the police whilst driving if it meant catching an evil smoker, but that's an indicator of the joyless little dictators that rabid anti-smokers are.
Having said that, even as a smoker myself I think smoking in a car when there are kids inside is damned irresponsible.
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>>not sure of the outcome, but it certainly wasn't good for the
>> tax-payers.
Assuming, of course, that the only thing taxpayers want is to pay lower taxes.
It's not quite right to say that it is unenforceable, rather that the people who should enforce it just won't bother.
Just like cops and "phone drivers".
If it was enforced, and shown to be enforced, a few times, it would have an impact.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 12:31
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Sad state of affairs, but there are many parents that think it is acceptable to smoke in a car full of kids.
Anything that saves a few of them being exposed to it is worthwhile, even if it just the fear of prosecution.
Also many people think lots of different behaviours are acceptable just because they are not illegal
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It'll become illegal in the end, with much support from the bleating hordes. Then only existing addicts will try to get it.
Ghastly stuff, extremely addicting - but the oral activity plays a big part - and from the effects point of view the most boring and unpleasant drug I've ever tried. All the others do something good or at least interesting if you are lucky. Tobacco just makes you feel sick and faint.
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Hope I can still smoke in the crematorium when my time comes.
Last edited by: gmac on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 19:23
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Perhaps being naive here but as a lifelong ( but recently ex ) smoker I have certainly never smoked in a car where kids were also in it or indeed in any enclosed space around children. Never in my house since it was occupied by children either. I also don't know of anyone of my aquaintance who smokes who would either. Now, I accept that there will be those who do but it strikes me ( sorry about that ) they would be the sorts who wouldn't take much notice of a law forbidding it anymore than those who speed excessively, or drink drive or use hand held phones in their cars while transporting kids will.
Now, a programme of education explaining the reasons why it might be a bad idea has some merit but frankly there will always be those who choose to ignore such things and indeed any law which they choose to decide doesn't apply to them.
While I heartily disapprove of smoking around children I also despair at the plethora of activities which are being "banned". It takes away the importance from the things which really need to be censured and enforced. It has all become a bit too "high visibility vest" for my liking. It's increasingly difficult to take it all seriously and if relatively reasonable people are starting to think like that it's small wonder those members of society who are less inclined to conform are unilaterally ignoring all this legislation.
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Almost everyone including my excellent parents smoked around me when I was a child, and I have always smoked around children too. But time marches on and I do it less than I did. One gets intimidated by all the vehemence.
Although 'passive smoking' is a meaningless propaganda concept invented and promoted by ghastly rabid anti-smoking wonks, and I don't believe smoking in their presence does children any physical harm, it's true that children don't like tobacco smoke much and that smoking in front of them may 'set them a bad example'.
It's true too that some people including some children may have asthma or other allergic conditions that make them especially susceptible. But there are many more people who raise an unholy fuss about smoking just because they think they can, bad cess to the carphounds. You have to learn to distinguish between the sheep and the goats. The bleating sounds much the same in both cases.
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My parents smoked in the car and it was pretty god damn awful in there, and when old enough to assert some rights asked them to desist. It was largely ignored.
I smoked for over 35 years, but never smoked in the car with the windows closed, because it turned it into an unpleasant and smelly place to be that constantly stank of fags. Same at home as well, yellow paint and walls is not nice.
One can smoke and still be a little considerate about it, smoking in a car with kids in it is for any normal thinking person, a complete no-no. Same applies for any non smoking passengers.
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I used to have a "NO F A R T I N G" sticker on my dashboard. In the same style as a NO SMOKING one. I used to think it was funny but it just sort of wore off.
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I grew up in the NE, I started playing for a brass band aged six and attended practices, twice a week, where brewery ashtrays were on the floor for the smokers which were swept out after every practice.
I travelled in a car (2 door) which had two smokers in the front who used the front quarter lights to flick the ash out 'you'll never fill that ashtray' was the comment. I started smoking in my early twenties and stopped mid-thirties. I was a 60/day man when I stopped.
I'm now 42, don't smoke, wouldn't dream of smoking in front of my kids. I'm not some anti-smoking wonk. If people want to smoke, crack on, I'll even sit in the company of smokers. But not the kids. Who knows what it has done to my life expectancy ? Whatever it is, it is part of my life, I don't have to pass it on.
Last edited by: gmac on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 21:56
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Some people snort and jack up in front of their children, smoking ain't going to worry them
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>> One can smoke and still be a little considerate about it,
Quite. Ask people if they mind. Open the window. Even children and non-smokers can be surprisingly accommodating. But I always did those things anyway.
Tobacco is frightful stuff. Toxic to the smoker and anti-social to everyone else. There's no sense in getting addicted to it.
But when you are, you certainly aren't going to listen to the sadistic yipping of ignoramuses, or whippersnappers telling you their bodies are temples. Go forth and multiply, I always tell those. What are they doing hanging around if they don't like it? Tchah!
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I live in a first floor flat – one flat in a purpose built block of four. The only tenant of the four of us who smokes lives in the flat below me. He smokes incessantly and his flat absolutely stinks. His smoke is seeping into my flat and my flat is starting to smell as well. When his front door is open for any length of time (it is often open for minutes on end as he loads equipment into his (stinking ) car a couple of times each week) the central hall and staircase reeks of nicotine and the front and back doors have to be left open to enable the wind to ventilate the open area. He insists that he has a right to smoke (an argument that seems to be central to most smokers attitude to their disgusting habit). I HATE him and I hate smoking with a passion. The thought that anybody feels comfortable smoking in a car when anybody else, not just children, is present, is something that I find utterly repugnant.
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He
>> insists that he has a right to smoke (an argument that seems to be central
>> to most smokers attitude to their disgusting habit). I HATE him and I hate smoking
>> with a passion. The thought that anybody feels comfortable smoking in a car when anybody
>> else, not just children, is present, is something that I find utterly repugnant.
>>
I'm really glad I'm not your neighbour..... even if I didn't smoke. ;-)
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>> I'm really glad I'm not your neighbour..... even if I didn't smoke. ;-)
I'm glad too, but not because of scousehonda even when he's leaving all the doors open to admit cold air and random toerags and complaining and holding his nose: but because of the block of flats which is obviously about to fall down and which anyway doesn't have flats properly separated from each other. If scousehonda values his life he should move immediately before he is crushed in the collapse.
I must say his downstairs neighbour sounds a man of saintly forbearance. When scousehonda is posturing about the place, griping and making faces and telling the guy he's disgusting, all he does is mildly state the obvious by protesting that he has a right to smoke.
I might say a bit more than that if some neighbour came and gave me a lot of gyp about something so utterly trivial and commonplace. What on earth is the matter with people these days? Have they nothing to do?
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 15 Jul 11 at 04:31
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:-) removed :-)
Last edited by: gmac on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 23:00
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I smoke, but never in the car with the kids present, or any non smoking adult for that matter. I also do not smoke in the house.
I smoke in the car when on my own, but always with the window down.
Even as a smoker, I find both cigarette smoke in a confined space, and the smell of stale cigarette smoke, very unpleasant.
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No-one with any manners would smoke in a confined space when they are sharing it with others, whether the others are children or not. Would you smoke in a lift for example? I don't see that smoking in a car is much different. If you're really desperate for a cigarette you could always stop the car for a couple of minutes and get out....
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Not to mention also that, if you smoke regularly in the car, the interior smells like an ashtray, which would affect its resale value....
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>>the interior smells like an ashtray, which would affect its resale value....
I have bought 2 cars that didn't seem to smell on purchase that developed an odour after a month or two, one stank of cigars once the weather cooled off enough to need the heater and the other stank of dog after a while, don't know why I couldn't smell it at first, if I had to guess I'd say some kind of odour neutralising spray.
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>> No-one with any manners would smoke in a confined space when they are sharing it
>> with others, whether the others are children or not.
I agree, up to a point.......
Would you smoke in a lift
>> for example? I don't see that smoking in a car is much different. If you're
>> really desperate for a cigarette you could always stop the car for a couple of
>> minutes and get out....
>>
.... but I'm minded to say that there's a world of difference between a PUBLIC lift and MY car.
No-one with any manners would have the temerity to lecture me on what I can legally do in my own space.
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>>How, pray tell, are the police planning to enforce this when they can't keep people off their phones? <<
they will probably have powers of "stop `n` sniff" whereby people leaving carparks with kids can be stopped, if the kids clothes smell of tobacco, you will be issued with an on the spot £60 fine!
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I've just had a smoking detector test when applying for life insurance. The urine test is apparently so sensitive it can pick up anyone who has smoked in the past week or been subjected to passive smoking.
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They were Ok with the cannabis and cocaine tho were they?
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Strangely they weren't bothered about other drugs, so presumably insurance companies don't consider hard drug addiction as life-threatening?
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I'm struggling with this one. I'm a reformed ex-smoker and I want the vulnerable to be protected.
I agree with the general points that WillDeBeest made that laws can never be expected to eliminate bad behaviour entirely, but they do influence it.
However, this proposed legislation is a logical nonsense. When the anti-smacking law came in it applied in all circumstances. This was logically consistent, whether you happened to agree with the law or not. If smoking in front of children is bad then it has to be likewise banned under all circumstances, just like smacking. However the authorities know just what an outcry a total ban would produce.
As usual, the authoritarian streak of governments shines through. Their first instinct when faced with something that they don't like is to create yet more laws. Often very bad law created in haste.
(I've got a David Penhaligon story about Parliamentary laws - but that's for another thread)
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No smoking with kids in the car. New law coming ? - Fursty Ferret
