I refer to my brother's Toyota Auris auto, which I drove for the first time at the weekend.
The big plus point is the ride, it's nicely compliant, although there is a big trade-off in handling.
But the super clever auto box is a dead loss.
It changes up with indecent haste, presumably to save fuel, but on the slightest incline, it soon has to change down again.
The high revs, no torque engine makes it worse, the rev counter whizzes around the dial, but there's very little acceleration.
The 'box has a manual mode, kickdown, flappy paddles, and a sport mode, but none of these make up for its shortcomings.
Low speed manoeuvring is twitchy, at one point the throttle blipped itself, causing me to stamp on the brake.
I've had a longish drive in a Civic auto, which suffered the same problems to a lesser degree.
Lots of owners complain about the DSG gearbox in VAG cars.
Are any of these multi-mode autos any good?
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The 3 series I was loaned last week had one of these dual mode gearboxes - not a big fan of autos, especially on the roads around here, where the poor old car seemed to always be in the wrong gear. The floor mounted DSG allowed a near enough perfect combination of manual and auto mode though. The kickdown was a bit harsh on this car. DSG cars need to be driven with a little finesse though - stamping on any of the pedals is likely to cause distress !
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More practice on the Auris would reap reward, but brother is a little disappointed with it.
He likes autos, but is having to resort to using the sport mode and paddles, which he was hoping not to do.
This is not for speed, just to maintain control.
What the car needs is a conventional auto gearbox, and an engine with some torque.
But I expect it would then only do 30mpg, so would not sell.
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I take it, Iffy, that he did not have a test drive first?
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...I take it, Iffy, that he did not have a test drive first?...
No idea, but if I was selling the car, I would not offer a test drive - it would be a waste of my petrol.
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"The only transmission for all models is Super CVT-i." it seems...
I recently drove the Suzuki SX4 with CVT. what a hound!
"First up was the CVT-equipped version, which, to be honest, left me cold. Suzuki claim the CVT ‘delivers a sporty handling response’, but in my experience, it was all noise, and no grunt when trying to get any performance, sporty or otherwise, from the box.
CVT (continuously variable transmission) technology allows the engine to run at its most efficient revolutions per minute, or alternately used to maximize the performance of a vehicle by allowing the engine to turn at the RPM at which it produces peak power. But try as I might, I couldn’t hit the right note. Either the engine was howling but going nowhere fast, or the SX was bogging down, for example after slowing down for the lights, then accelerating to reach cruising speed again.
Input from the flappy paddles cured a bit of the lag, but timing the changes often led to the aforementioned howling, which attracted a few scornful glances from other road users."
Then I drove the AWD 6-speeder. What a beauty. Absolute chalk-and-cheese between the two, though the engine is identical.
CVTs are designed for mimsers, IMHO.
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No doubt some will have seen my post elsewhere about the Honda I-drive. Diabolical.
I was looking at an Auris the other day and thought it was quite presentable - apart from the funny little snout that Toyotas have. But my father's name was Horace, so there's no way I could ever own one...
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Excellent review Iffy, just about sums up every single automated manual box i've ever driven, especially the bit about lower speed control, you should have tried a bit of close manoeuvering on an incline to cement the inseparable relationship.
I've driven these things in trucks for years, the first one on an L reg plate (17ish years ago?), and semi permanently since 2003, difficult to find a newish artic without one on most fleets.
Apart from Volvo's who still have the very best system IMO, good progressive auto clutch and the right gear every time without fail. The rest of them i've driven in override manual mode and continue to do so, the frustration with the incompetence of the boxes when they need to do a bit of work is too much for me to let them decide themselves eventually in full auto, far safer too at junctions.
RP the BMW you refer to wasn't an M3 was it, i found these to be er difficult at low speeds, but i thought the rest of the cars of more normal specs still had proper torque converter autos.
MH, yes i did enjoy your Honda auto thingy report, yours and Iffy's should be posted as sticky's when the site is updated, if they stop just one poor sod being bamboozled into buying one it will have been worth it.
Would i buy one, they couldn't pay me.
Having said that the CVT as fitted to Prius and Lexus Hybrids is a joy of smooth constant power (aided and abetted by the seamless addition of engine power when it fires up), smoother than my lovely old MB torque converter auto or the Hilux auto which amazingly gave the MB a run for it's money for smoothness, seamless changes and infinite control.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 20 Sep 11 at 11:24
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It was a 320d. Sort of mixed feelings about it - the auto was fine in towns and on duals. The DSG element was excellent in other scenarios.
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>> It was a 320d. Sort of mixed feelings about it -
You do surprise me, these must have come on stream since i left the other job.
Be interesting to try one, not a box i'd want to own out of warranty mind..:)
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GB,
It seemed to me to be a run out version of the current BMW before the new 3 series comes on stream sometime soon.
Photo of the car in another thread.
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>> Photo of the car in another thread.
>>
Yes, saw it and i've been struggling to sleep since, visions of retired baseball capped legal beagle furtively parking round dodgy areas 'dealing'...must have been the wheels wot dunnit.
:-))
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 20 Sep 11 at 12:32
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I don't want to start an argument, RP, but DSG is the name that VAG give to the twin-clutch transmission that they fit to their cars. BMW (apart from the top-range models) only use conventional torque converter + planetary gear type autos. Certainly that is the type that must have been fitted on the 320d that you had.
Excellent gearbox, though, isn't it.
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Sorry should have referred to it as a sequential gearbox - good box - might be tempted next time.
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How many different auto boxes are there?Just wondered if anybody knew.
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>> How many different auto boxes are there?Just wondered if anybody knew.
>>
OK, I'll have a go:
Torque converter auto.
CVT
Single-clutch automated manuals (Smarts, PSA EGS, Honda i-Shift)
Twin-clutch automated manuals (VW DSG, Ford Powershift,etc.)
Citroen C-Matic. These have a manual gear-lever, but no clutch. Sensors on the gearlever operate the clutch (bit like a single-clutch automated manual.
Any more for any more?
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...Any more for any more?...
Er, the old Minor pick-up I used to drive at the garage.
We changed gear on that without using the clutch just because we could.
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So could I in the air cooled Beetle I had.Just the right refs change gear without using the clutch.
So which is the most reliable auto gearbox?
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The Prius (as well as the hybrid Lexus and the Auris) which is a single gear sun and planet transmission. Not a CVT: there are no rubber bands, or steel ones either. It just has a similar title to avoid confusing the press.
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>>my lovely old MB torque converter auto
GB, if your indie uses a bog standard Dexron oil, you may find that switching to MB 236.10 may help - it made a big difference to the 722.4 gearbox in my car.
It's one of those cases where the oil technology has moved on since the gearboxes were built, and although it's perfectly true to say that they can run using a basic ATF, a newer ATF can make them even smoother.
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>> >>my lovely old MB torque converter auto
>>
>> GB, if your indie uses a bog standard Dexron oil, you may find that switching
>> to MB 236.10 may help - it made a big difference to the 722.4 gearbox
>> in my car.
>>
MB 236.10 has now been superseded to 236.14 as used in 722.9 boxes.
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>>MB 236.10 has now been superseded to 236.14 as used in 722.9 boxes.
Does that mean 236.10 is no longer available?
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>> >>MB 236.10 has now been superseded to 236.14 as used in 722.9 boxes.
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>> Does that mean 236.10 is no longer available?
>>
Correct, 001 989 21 03 nla, 001 989 68 03 now used instead.
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>> Correct, 001 989 21 03 nla, 001 989 68 03 now used instead.
>>
That's a shame, as 236.14 isn't suitable for the older gearboxes, 722.3 .4 and .5, while the 236.10 was.
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>> That's a shame, as 236.14 isn't suitable for the older gearboxes, 722.3 .4 and .5,
>> while the 236.10 was.
So does that mean there's a better oil available for next change or not....it'll be a while he changed the gearbox oil about 10k ago.
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It's about a year since I changed my oil for 236.10, but, I'm sure ST has access to the latest information.
There are sources of oil to 236.10 other than MB - bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/236.10_en.html
Here's the listing of which oils are specified for which gearbox;
bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_231_1.pdf
The last entry on page 4 lists the oils for the older gearboxes in W124s
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Wed 21 Sep 11 at 10:40
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>> There are sources of oil to 236.10 other than MB - bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/236.10_en.html
Much obliged to me learned friend, noted for next change.
That ST bloke does know a thing or two too, thanks for the update ST.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 21 Sep 11 at 12:07
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>> CVTs are designed for mimsers, IMHO.
Ever tried an Audi multitronic? If I have a beef with it, it's that it gets up to illegal speeds far too easily and unobtrusively.
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>>Low speed manoeuvring is twitchy, at one point the throttle blipped itself, causing me to stamp on the brake<<
Should be fun in the winter then :(
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>>But the super clever auto box is a dead loss.
>>
Totally agree. As I posted before, the Auris I rented in Capetown was so bad I was forced to swop it within 24 hours as it was almost wiplash injuries each gear change and it was a real pita to get up a steep road.
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I still believe that if you want autos, the traditional torque converter is the way to go.
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Ive driven a few CVT cars and never found much wrong with how they drive.
The worst was possibly the '98 Fiesta Ghia, didnt seem to know what it wanted to do, but it wasnt too bad.
Always got on OK with Rover 216 CVT, although as in the Metro, the creep is very strong, perhaps too much so.
They do require some understanding of how they work in order to get the most out of them though.
Agreed on automated manuals though, hate the lot of them and one of the primary reasons we only looked at the Sirion and the i10 was the conventional autoboxes. My wife has driven a Yaris 'auto' and she said it was, er, carp.
Last edited by: FoR on Tue 20 Sep 11 at 12:08
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My wife has driven a Yaris 'auto' and she said it was, er, carp.
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Bet you censored that Stu..;)
I understand Yaris has just been given a new box, couldn't tell you what it is, what is for sure is that it couldn't be worse than the MMT, if Toyota can't make them work well there's every chance it's a no hoper.
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The stupid thing is, my wifes car has the autobox from the MK1 Yaris and its a cracker, nor does it affect economy to a massive extent, only around 4 mpg over the manual.
I have never thought there is much point sacrificing usability for economy because if its horrid to drive, few people will want it, regardless of headline figures.
Last edited by: FoR on Tue 20 Sep 11 at 12:19
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Is an automated manual an oxy moron?
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Previous car to the Focus.Honda Jazz C.V.T. I liked driving the Jazz the auto box was fine .When stopped at traffic lights I just put the lever in neutral handbrake on.The car had the fancy paddles used them one's or twice Neither use nor ornament.Didn't make the car go any faster.Drove a few old mercs in the past with auto boxes excellent.
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Which? recently did a group test on small autos. I forget the specifics, but the generality was that only the VAG DSG was any good (very good), and the rest are nowhere near as good as a traditional slushbox. My experience with the DSG is limited to at test drive in a Leon thus fitted. Very nice to drive but clearly broken (we didn't buy it...).
Alex.
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>> at one point the throttle blipped itself, causing me to stamp on the brake.
You're getting old iffy ;) Next you'll be going through car park walls!
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...Next you'll be going through car park walls!...
And if I do, I shall blame that ruddy Auris, even though I probably won't be driving it at the time.
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I know everybody hates it, but I got on OK with the PSA egc system. Had a grande picasso on hire for 3 weeks, and once you learn how to get the best out of it, its OK.
I think the trick is to predict when its going to change, and adjust the throttle accordingly - doing this is made quite smooth progress
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Credit where it's due, mikey, in learning how to get the best out of the gearbox. However, you should not be put in the position of having to worry about coping with gear changes. A really good automatic gearbox just gets on with it, leaving the driver to concentrate on what is going on around him/her.
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I agree with Londoner - and mikey.
Practice in the Auris would improve the driving experience.
But most Auris auto buyers are like my brother, they just want to stick it in D and get there.
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I had one of the last corollas with a proper automatic gearbox
There is no way I would have a Auris for these reasons
Toyota dealers recon they have been forced into this by the tax regime on emissions
I think the tax regime is serioulsy misguided for many reasons, one of the biggest reasons being that increasingly unreliable technology is being forced into the mainstream long before it has the bugs shaken out of it, having technology like this is not "green" when looked at in the round
"green" is something which needs less maintenance work over its life, and something which is reliable, not just something which can look good in an unrespresentative test
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>> "green" is something which needs less maintenance work over its life, and something which is
>> reliable, not just something which can look good in an unrespresentative test
>>
+1.
Whilst, I've been critical of modern car reliability on other threads, I wouldn't say that it is down to "increasingly unreliable technology", but I do think that manufacturers would like to be able to do more testing - but can't afford to fall behind their competitors in a cut-throat market.
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>> Toyota dealers recon they have been forced into this by the tax regime on emissions
>>
>> I think the tax regime is serioulsy misguided for many reasons, one of the biggest
>> reasons being that increasingly unreliable technology is being forced into the mainstream long before it
>> has the bugs shaken out of it,
>>
Yes, emissions are forcing improved efficiencies in all aspects of car design which is to be encouraged (although older cars should not be scrapped prematurely for the new tech). I would question your assertion that the new gearboxes are unreliable - I suspect the most widely used are VAG DSG boxes, and I'm not aware of major problems with these?
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While some new tech is introduced prematurely and is unrealiable the bigger problem is repair of the units that fail.
Until the techs have learned how to diagnose and fix stuff a high proportion are either cobbled or subject to trial by random part.
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I have it on good authority that VAG DSG boxes are generally long lived and reliable if they get their scheduled fluid change on time. If not, they tend to fail expensively somewhere around 80-90k.
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Expensive is just the half of it. My vag tech friend has just replaced the mechatronic unit in a V6 Audi TT. The part alone was £1500 ish, and setting it up requires the vehicle to be run at all engine speeds in all gears. Bit tricky, when that would require 155mph in 6th.
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But 155mph will be a limited top speed. So you therefore cannot run the engine in sixth at top revs without removing the limiter.
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Isn't Mechatronic Audi-speak for CVT (rather than DSG)?
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Yes.
great when new.
No tolerance for lack of servicing.
££££S to repair = write offs..
Runaamile jobbie. imo.
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The Audi CVT gearbox is officially called "Multitronic".
It has had heaps of problems in the past, which Audi claims to have cured by moving to 7 clutch plates from 6.
I hope they have, since the 7-plate version is the gearbox on my car. Lovely to drive, but if it proves unreliable then my opinion of it will change pretty quickly!
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Nice-ish car, shame about the gearbox - R.P.
