I know of someone with an Audi A4 2.0 TDI whose engine popped its clogs recently. Quite a new car, but apparently there is a very common fault on these with the balancer shaft connected to the oil pump. The end of the shaft rounds off and then the oil pump stops turning...
This guy ignored the warning signs (e.g. oil pressure light and dodgy engine noises), carried on driving and wrecked the engine. Idiotic, but there you go.
Anyway, he tracked down a written off A4 with the same engine (rear end smash) and swapped the engine over. However, he didn't tell the DVLA and is now trading in his Audi for something else.
Question: is this illegal, and is the dealer taking the trade-in likely to check the engine number? Would this count as fraud if discovered?
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Answers
1/ Yes - you are supposed to tell DVLA
2/ Perhaps. Bet some do and some don't
3/ Not sure. It is notionally "fraudulent" but I doubt anyone has been prosecuted
I'm not holier than thou though, I'm "guilty" but in my case, the replacement engine has no number as the block has been decked. Best to keep quiet I thought.
But I can notify any time (historic vehicle), I believe your mate is supposed to submit a receipt as well as it's a newer car.
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Changing a part, even a big one, on a car is certainly not illegal.
I've not got my registration document to hand, but I think it has the engine number on it, so those numbers won't match on this Audi.
I think it unlikely the dealer will check the engine number.
VIN number and finance checks won't throw up any problems.
What the Audi owner must not do is misrepresent the car in any way.
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So, the DVLA might be annoyed, but as long as the dealer doesn't ask, he doesn't need to tell...
Looks like he might get away with it!
Submitting a receipt might be tricky, as there isn't one!
Last edited by: oilburner on Fri 14 Oct 11 at 10:49
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I wonder how much info the DVLA need? Can you just write to them with the new engine number and have them update the V5C?
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>> I wonder how much info the DVLA need? Can you just write to them with the new engine number and have them update the V5C?
You just fill in the relevent section of the V5C and post it off to them to update.
tinyurl.com/yh8qtus - www.direct.gov.uk
tinyurl.com/6jttj6b - www.pngclub.com
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 14 Oct 11 at 11:11
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>> So, the DVLA might be annoyed, but as long as the dealer doesn't ask, he
>> doesn't need to tell...
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The problems come further down the line. If it's a straight like-for-like swap, then it's unlikely there'd be any fuss made, especially if the car lives its natural lifespan and ends up being scrapped a few years later.
I'd suggest that whilst a dealer could reasonably be expected to take the precaution of checking chassis numbers against the log book when buying a normal day-to-day car, it would be unreasonable to expect him to do the same with the engine number and most would take the info on the V5 as read.
If, however, the vehicle in question has collectable or classic status, that's when problems could occur. There have been documented cases of car dealers being sued for selling classic vehicles which are not as they seem, even though the deal has been done in good faith.
There is also, I daresay, the possibility that such an un-notified swap could give an insurance company the wriggle room it needs; it would on a motorbike.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Fri 14 Oct 11 at 11:25
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Legally you are supposed to tell DVLA and your insurer. If the new(!) engine is more powerful than older one, then it can create all sorts of problem with DVLA/insurers.
Often engine numbers are difficult to track. My previous 2006 Suzuki had just a sticker as engine number (at least I could not see any embossed engine number anywhere). In may other engines, the number is just riveted on a small plate - which is not difficult to replace IMHO.
If it is not exactly like for like replacement, then I wonder how the electronics will interact with engine.
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In my experience the DVLA aren't that bothered. I've had cars that just had a blank space for engine number on the documentation. Trying to get it corrected is often more trouble than it's worth.
It only matters if the engine has a higher rating, because that's an obvious case where the insurance company would be concerned.
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>> If it is not exactly like for like replacement, then I wonder how the electronics
>> will interact with engine.
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I think you'd need to do an exact like for like swap, using the ECU(s) and sensors of the car under repair or it would be a whole world of pain.
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I believe it's an identical engine, so in theory everything is as it should be, aside from paperwork.
What about the mileage aspect? I don't know how many miles the donor car had done, but what if it's more than the original engine? Does that mean the seller might be technically misrepresenting the mileage to the dealer? It certainly makes you wonder. I've checked VIN numbers on second hand cars in the past, but never thought to check the engine number. Who does?
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If you put a second hand alternator (or bumper bar) onto a car and it's done more miles than the rest of the car, then is that misrepresenting the mileage??? Scarcely.
It's just a replacement component.
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Good point. I guess the sum total of other parts that can wear out over time (apart from the engine) could count for more, and yet all of those might be replaced (perhaps with second hand parts) over the cars lifetime, if you were unlucky.
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I think that's disingenuous. Would you really feel you'd got a fair deal if you found out that the car you'd just bought had a major component (not a bumper) that was significantly older than you'd been led to believe?
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And that's the crux of the problem isn't it? Does the engine count, or not? I think most people could accept a gearbox having been replaced, but maybe not the engine?
The wear and tear on the engine is often tied up (in our minds) directly to the mileage, isn't it? Other things, less so.
That's why I feel it may be misrepresenting the mileage, as the dealer does ask "is the mileage genuine to your knowledge" or words to that effect. Can that be answered honestly "YES" when you know the engine could have higher miles on it than the rest of the car?
Could be messy if dealer accepts the trade in and somehow found out before passing the car onto auction. But probably unlikely I guess.
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The replacement engine might have done a lower mileage.
I don't think the mileage means anything. I've replaced a low mileage engine worn out by short journeys and lack of servicing with a high mileage long-journey well-maintained engine.
You buy and sell on condition. Mileage is only one indicator.
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About 3 years ago I had a "new" engine put in an Escort and forgot to inform the DVLA, never had any comeback over it although I believe the dealer scraped it when we traded it in.
I wouldn't be too worried about the milage of the engine if I bought a car that had the engine replaced, I would be more concerned as to why it had been replaced, the car has probably been neglected and there may be other things just waiting to go wrong.
edit: the Escort had been neglected by the previous owner and I only ended up with it because my father in law bought it on ebay for next to nothing.
Last edited by: The Nut on Fri 14 Oct 11 at 19:12
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I think it's a bit strange that you could fit a bigger, higher emissions, engine, yet it doesn't affect the taxation band of the car. Apparently once it's set from new it can't be changed.
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What's wrong with telling the truth? OK, the car's valuation may suffer a little but at least he'd know there wouldn't be any future grief.
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>> at least he'd know there wouldn't be any future grief.
Apart from having no provenance or receipt for the current engine... (AFAIR)
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One factor that does not seem to be have been considered is the legitimacy of the engine. The two major identifiable components of a nicked car are the engine and body.
Providing its provenance is good then its just another component which can be changed. DVLA notified who will I presume check that the engine is not recorded as stolen and V5 updated. Any subsequent checks will show everything in order.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 15 Oct 11 at 21:57
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>> I think it's a bit strange that you could fit a bigger, higher emissions, engine,
>> yet it doesn't affect the taxation band of the car. Apparently once it's set from
>> new it can't be changed.
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It affects the MOT emisions test however. A car is tested according to its year of manufacture, or that of the engine, whichever is older. You need documentation for the engine's provenance however if you want to use this to your advantage.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Sun 16 Oct 11 at 14:33
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Swapping an engine... - Slidingpillar
