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That all looks very sensible to me.
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My wife receive the disability benefit.She still misses her job support worker for adults with learning difficulties.Nerve damage unfortenateley can't be cured.
These changes make sense there is a awfull lot of fiddling going on but very diificult to prove.Some people know how to work the system and spoil it for the majority.The backache is a classic I have had backage for years .Tumbled out of a window as a small child and landed on a car.I could have played it up to doctors but I rather earned a honest crust for my family.
I go swimming with a group who have disabilities.One or two are playing the system have a blue badge young men who are basically stones overweight.I get a gut feeling when something is not right and they know I do.
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Its a good start, German economy wont like it though!
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Interesting that the article - albeit in The Daily Wail ;-) - quotes the Chairman of the motability scheme as saying that the average price (new, list, presumably) of a Motability car is £19,500 compared to a UK average of more than £28,000!
The motability number sort of makes sense to me - a Golf TDI is knocking on that kind of price, but if asked about the average price of a car in the UK I wouldn't have guess it as being that high. I wonder what 'average' means is this context?
Peter
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The fiddling and over indulgence of all the welfare system has gone on far too long, it will be a long haul to get it to manageable levels and i doubt it will happen.
As an aside IDS always struck me as a decent stick, didn't have that show biz photogenic appeal apparently so necessary for a modern PM, but i believe he was sidelined for other reasons.
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Top spec Mondeo is 30K list before any options. There are a lot of cars with inflated list prices which could lead to that average. Take into account all the move expensive motors (like Humph's merc :-)) and the cheaper options and I think a list average of 29K sounds feasable
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There will be a big difference between the average list price of all cars available in the UK, compared to the average list price of all cars sold in the UK.
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>> There will be a big difference between the average list price of all cars available
>> in the UK, compared to the average list price of all cars sold in the
>> UK.
Indeed; that's what made me wonder what the definition of 'average' is. From memory almost all of the 'top 10' selling cars in the UK are likely to have cost less than £28k, even at list, with the possible exception of the BMW 3 series. Most probably cost a lot less.
edit: In fact according to SMMT the top 10 year to date are Fiesta, Focus, Corsa, Golf, Astra, Insignia, Polo, 3 Series, Qashqai, MINI. No Mondeo, which is a surprise, but I still think all bar the 3 series, a few Insignias, Golfs and MINIs will have a list price much less than £28k!!
Last edited by: PeterS on Sun 23 Oct 11 at 12:13
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Most people work hard in the UK.German management is better in my opinion,we still have this know your place bussiness.Germans have workscouncils where workers have a input in the say of running a company.
They work hard and have plenty of holidays.
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19,500, let alone 28,000, seems way higher than I imagine "ordinary hardworking families" have on average to spend on a car every three years, even allowing for the difference between list price and what is actually paid. It doesn't tally with my observations either.
Is it reasonable to ask, if you can afford to put all of your higher rate DLA mobility allowance plus some cash every three years into a new car, whether you need the allowance?
Actually that's a stupid question. DLA is not means tested, so it follows that it goes to a lot of people who don't need it. There will be a lot of people paying tax and buying ex-Motability cars on the used market who think that isn't fair.
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I have a customer with a motability car, its a Renault Kangoo auto, about £15k new at the time, all the space you could need and ultra well suited to people with mobility issues.
Why anyone needs anything else baffles me.
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>> I have a customer with a motability car, its a Renault Kangoo auto,
Didn't know they did those Stu, PSA dealers all bemoaned the fact that you could not get an auto in Berlingo/Partner, pity as the proper auto box found in petrol Picasso and C4 Pic 'Lounge' was a peach, they'd have sold by the thousand, i'd have one.
Is the Kangoo a proper auto or one from hell?
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Proper 1.6 auto, air con, eleccy windows and mirrors, cheap and reliable motor, great for conversion to carry a wheelchair in the back aswell.
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>> Proper 1.6 auto, air con, eleccy windows and mirrors, cheap and reliable motor, great for
>> conversion to carry a wheelchair in the back aswell.
Thanks for that, very handy to know.
Don't suppose the Diesel version happens to have the proper auto box?, too much to hope for i s'pose..
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Cant speak of the very current versions, my customer has an 09 plate one but its the old model, I think they have launched a new one since then.
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In reality though, a lot of people don't spend £19,500 every three years. They put down a few thousand pounds deposit and PCP the rest - probably for a couple of hundred pounds a month. Exactly the same as Motability, but not government funded.
Of course, for those who have mobility problems and couldn't afford a car otherwise it's a great scheme. It does seem strange that its not means tested though... As an aside, if the Motability fleet has 580k car on it (source: their website) and they are all on 3 year leases then Motability must buy almost 200,000 cars a year. That's around 10% of cars sold!!
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DLA is not means tested and that principle is to continue when it is replaced by PIP. The problem with means testing, apart from the expense and complexity of the test, is that if the savings are to be meaninigful then the cut off will be quite low. The squeezed middle will lose out as well as the rich.
The article looks like typical Mail coverage relying on distortion, half truth and the occasional lie to play on its reader's sense of outrage. The criteria for getting DLA(M) at the Higher Rate is to be unable or virtually unable to walk. The dog whistle stuff plays to the Mail's usual stereotypes. backs (all back pain is a skive) , alcohol drugs (their own fault) and kids with ADHD (need a good slap)
How much does a motability car cost the taxpayer?
My understanding is that in practice it's effectively contract hire. The hirer forfeits their DLA(M) and, if that's not enough to cover the cost then there's a down payment. If prestige brands are available then, like in the company car market, low depreciation and a bouyant resale market mean lease costs are no higher than for mass market cars which plummet in value. If OTOH insurance is a big cost in the scheme then there's a case for controls on more expensive vehicles.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 23 Oct 11 at 13:18
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...The article looks like typical Mail coverage relying on distortion, half truth and the occasional lie to play...
Cobblers - it's 90 per cent quotes from people who ought to know what they are talking about.
The fact the scheme is being modified bears this out.
Now for a few more facts.
The 'outdoor' element of the DLA is about £50 a week.
Most recipients choose to spend all of that on the Motability scheme.
This gets them something like a Fiesta or Focus Zetec.
The car is usually all found, including tyres and insurance, so all the user pays is fuel.
In my opinion, it's a sensible scheme at that level.
A genuinely disabled person of modest means appreciates fixed-cost, worry-free, reliable motoring.
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>> In my opinion, it's a sensible scheme at that level.
>>
>> A genuinely disabled person of modest means appreciates fixed-cost, worry-free, reliable motoring.
And quite right at that level, chap round the corner from me is really struggling to walk now, hard working fellow all his life, he can barely drive so his lovely wife gets him about.
I don't begrudge genuine cases especially where people have paid in for years a penny, it's the professional scrounger and those who whilst being able bodied have never paid a penny in that i want to get a reality check.
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Crazy idea!
Based on our lease company costs £30k BMWs are cheaper over 3-4 years than a £22k Mondeo or Insignia.
It is all to do with depreciation.
I suspect this face saving will actually cost more in the long run.
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>> I suspect this face saving will actually cost more in the long run.
I can't see it costing more; the government/motability contribution is a fixed amount. It'll stop people contributing more themselves to get a 'better' car, but that might mean that some of those who could afford to buy and run their own car chose to do so outside the motability scheme to get the sort of car they want I guess.
It might actually mean better deals for the rest of us too. If fewer cars are sold via motability but manufacturers still need to shift metal they will have to sharpen their offers to the rest of us!!
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>> Cobblers - it's 90 per cent quotes from people who ought to know what they
>> are talking about.
The first lie is in the headline '9,100 people with Drink and Drugs problems can get free vehicles'
They're not free, a cash benefit must be surrendered and in may cases a real (not 'so-called' down payment made. And as is clear further down the report the b-t about 'drink and drugs is a distortion. Some people may have DD problems secondary to their main disability - I've seen it professionally with people who've had a traumatic brain injury - nobdy gets DLA at higher rate just because they're an alcoholic.
And as for the picture caption.......
The five mile rule incidentally will give rise to all sorts of problems. You're a carer for disabled adult offspring living semi -independently 4.75 miles down the road. You move half a mile and the car goes. MP's had better prepare their postbags.
Five miles as a trigger point for making inquiries, part of a matrix of inidcators for fraud is one thing. A hard and fast rule is silly.
Iffy on a professional question what is with the journalistic fascination with the phrase 'so called'? It's used in this article and quite often in technical accounts eg "the plane should be slowed by 'so called' reverse-thrust. What exactly does the phrase add??
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 23 Oct 11 at 14:19
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...They're not free, a cash benefit must be surrendered...
Hair splitting - the benefit comes at no direct cost to the recipient.
It's up to them what they spend it on.
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>> The five mile rule incidentally will give rise to all sorts of problems. You're a
>> carer for disabled adult offspring living semi -independently 4.75 miles down the road. You move
>> half a mile and the car goes.
The Motability car goes. He still has the DLA to spend on mobility. If he wants to give that to his dad, to provide or subsidise a non-Motability car, he can. Of course he might find that he has to cut his coat a bit...
>>A hard and fast rule is silly.
If it's not hard and fast, it's not a rule.
If the budget was anywhere near balanced I'd be more relaxed about it. But you can't ring-fence this kind of cost when the taxpayers funding it are going backwards at a rate of knots.
With 1.9m people getting higher rate DLA mobility, I think it's also fair to assume there has been a material level of abuse. I suspect many believe that higher rate DLA mobility is possibly the most widely abused benefit - to qualify, you have to be virtually unable to walk - 1.9m is a hell of a lot of people who can't walk.
That said, this change is window dressing anyway. HMG will find it very difficult to wind back on benefits for the disabled, and blunt changes would sadly affect the most unfortunate worse than the spongers who know how to fill the forms in.
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I know a lorry driver who managed to pass his Class 1 to drive an artic with his disability...well done to him.
BUT he works full time and earns the same as any other lorry driver, he has 6 small children and a brand new Motability Vauxhall Astra.
He constantly whinges that 'they' want to cut his benefits because he's working.
This is a kick in the teeth for those of us who work alongside him and can neither afford to have 6 kids or a new car.
Pat
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...1.9m is a hell of a lot of people who can't walk...
Many of the offenders I see in court are on long-term sick of one description or other.
Sometimes it's laughable.
You hear a case of a burglar who left the scene faster than Linford Christie when the police turned up.
But when it comes to court, he can't do community service because he's registered disabled.
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Been doing the call centre thing for CAB today, the benefit system changes are hitting people hard - it's a big stick and it's not discriminating against anyone. I asked some guy how he described himself (work-wise) and he said "destitute" - an older man sounded quite genuinely at the end of his tether.
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I know of someone who used to get Motability. Fit as a fiddle most of the time. The months/week coming up to the review with the GP.... out came the walking stick and the fake struggle to walk. Just after the review he was back to normal.
Some deserve and need benefits. Some others are abusing the system.
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...The months/week coming up to the review with the GP...
I believe in most areas the blue badge assessment is now carried out by someone from the local authority.
The change was made because it was felt some GPs were too sympathetic, or were bullied into approving a patient for a badge.
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The GP knows the patient history.
We now have a situation where people with no medial qualifications decide your fate.
A private independent company hired by the government and sometimes ignore doctors report.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by: R.P. on Mon 24 Oct 11 at 19:22
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...Correct me if I'm wrong...
In the case of a blue badge, the assessment is carried out by an employee of the local authority, who presumably has been trained to do it.
As has been said, eligibility is aimed at physical inability to walk far.
Why the person cannot walk far is largely irrelevant.
Having said that certain illnesses which might cause the person walking difficulties - cancer is one example - routinely do not qualify for a blue badge.
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I know Iffy been there,I wanted a temporarely blue badge after my op.
Got told to sod off.
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We get that too RP, when we get calls for help.....it's so hard to remain impartial and choose who to help and who to refuse.
The vast majority have worked all of their lives and have done nothing whatsoever to contribute to the position they are in.
If you get any lorry drivers please point them in our direction, the financial help will be small but we may well be able to help re-training them to find other work.
Pat
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Put the website up on here and I'll post it in the sticky sections. I had one lorry driver - it was the most amusing call I've had so far - a tale of clamping, and a crowbar...
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>> Been doing the call centre thing for CAB today, the benefit system changes are hitting
>> people hard
I imagine you'll see the harder cases.
As a trustee of a pension scheme, I share in some difficult decisions on ill health pensions. We must follow the rules, in the interests of all the members, and of course we have professional medical reports and conclusions. The decisions are sometimes uncomfortable to make.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 24 Oct 11 at 19:57
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Sorry Manatee you are a trustee of a private pension scheme.
What has that got to do with the government benefit system?
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Doesn't matter who manages the system Dutchie - cuts made affect people much the same.
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I understand R.P. We are talking about DLA cuts.And the appeals what people have to go through.I recieve a private pension paid stamps for over 40 years and can't claim job seekers allowence.
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Nor me ! It was a topic of conversation today.
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>> Sorry Manatee you are a trustee of a private pension scheme.
>>
>> What has that got to do with the government benefit system?
Nothing apparently. Mods please delete.
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...Mods please delete...
Nah, harmless thread drift.
Interesting and informing post - I had no idea pension trustees are involved in such decisions.
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I meant to imply, and should have said, that decisions involving the state of someone's health are frequently not straightforward. In the case of an ill health retirement it usually depends on the degree to which earning capacity is reduced, and whether or not the reduction is permanent. There are some hard cases, where people have had, and are having, a terrible time of it but don't qualify within the rules.
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Just for a laugh, my nan got a letter from Motability today, apparently she qualifies as a higher rate for life DLA recipient.
Essentially it looks like my dad ( two designated drivers my dad being one ) can get a Pug 3008 diesel auto for about £500 a year, including insurance, road tax, tyres, servicing, you name it, just fuel you have to pay for.
It is frankly a stonking deal and I cant see why anyone who didnt qualify would turn it down, its a gift and a half and my dad is seriously considering it now.
Incidentally, something like a Kia Cee'd - absolutely free.
Easy to see why it is abused.
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I understood that under the rules for a motability vehicle, the recipient could have a Rolls if they wanted and paid the difference, but after the fixed length of time (3 years?), it went back and they received no credit.
I don't see the problem with that.
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Plenty of people would rather have £51.40per week in cash to spend on what they want, than pay the equivalent of over £3100 per year plus fuel for a car.
That 4-5 grand pays for a lot of taxis with plenty to spare.
"Absolutely free" it ain't.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 24 Oct 11 at 20:42
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I thought the mobility component of higher rate DLA, which is given up in exchange, was £51.40 per week?
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Stuart,
It's certainly easy to see why people try to abuse the scheme and the trick for Motability is to catch the abusers without creating hurdles like the '5 mile rule' that make life hard for real claimants.
Nobody's getting a 3008 for £500pa. Maybe a 'so called' £1500 down payment and surrendering the £50pw DLA but then the cost is lot more than £500.
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True enough, I meant from the perspective of a carer, which many of the people who drive these cars actually are.
My dad would far rather I was able to drive any car we might get as its me who does all the running around for my nan, me that takes her out when she goes out - he has better things to do like be retired, but the 5 mile rule means he is stuck with it, so Id have to take her out in his old car, leaving the Motability one on the drive - which rather undermines the point of the scheme.
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Radio 4 ran an excellent programme a couple of years ago on Motability - apparently it's the biggest fleet of leased cars in Europe.
An overview of the scheme here :-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motability
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>> Radio 4 ran an excellent programme a couple of years ago on Motability - apparently
>>it's the biggest fleet of leased cars in Europe
And hence why it can offer 'deals' that tickle the jealousy gene in reders of the Mail and like papers.
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...And hence why it can offer 'deals' that tickle the jealousy gene in reders of the Mail and like papers...
Bromp,
Just for once, try to look at the message, rather than the messenger.
Anyone can get a Fiesta for £181 a month:
www.lingscars.com/Ford/Fiesta/215563-1.25_i_16v_%2859bhp%29_Edge_Hatchback_5dr_1242cc-personal.html
Doesn't make Motability look such a bargain, does it?
The Motability scheme does include servicing, insurance and tyres, but that won't come to a lot more for most drivers.
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>> Bromp,
>>
>> Just for once, try to look at the message, rather than the messenger.
>>
>> Anyone can get a Fiesta for £181 a month:
>>
>> www.lingscars.com/Ford/Fiesta/215563-1.25_i_16v_%2859bhp%29_Edge_Hatchback_5dr_1242cc-personal.html
>>
Ka/Fiesta/Panda type vehicles are probably available on Motability with no 'so called' down payment and even without surrendering the whole of the wekly benefit.
The Mail is a messenger which lies and distorts to a reach of near 5 million. It's quite difficult to ignore.
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...The Mail is a messenger...
What a newspaper has to do with a discussion on the cost of Motability cars is beyond me.
Thread drift is one thing, but too many discussions on here are derailed by ignorant, ill-informed vitriol against the Daily Mail.
If you dislike the paper so much, start a thread about it.
I tried that a few months ago, but it didn't get many replies - and some of those were in support.
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>> Thread drift is one thing, but too many discussions on here are derailed by ignorant,
>> ill-informed vitriol against the Daily Mail.
>>
>> If you dislike the paper so much, start a thread about it.
The discussion started from a link to the Mail. These changes are arguably the result of a 'campaign' by that paper - I'm sure the editor would take that as a credit.
It's widely regarded in Westminster and Whitehall as the voice of middle England and for that reason has influenced policies of revcent governments of both stripes. In fact Blair was less courageuous in dealing with it than the present lot.
There have certainly been earlier threads on the Mail which have disclosed that some of us like it and others including Alanovich, Zeddo and I who are in the opposite camp.
If the moddies object to my expressing an opinion on the paper I will of course cease. Until then it's fair game when posters link to its stories as sources of 'fact'.
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...Until then it's fair game when posters link to its stories as sources of fact...
Agreed.
I regard (almost) everything as fair game for a discussion on here.
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When a poster uses the mail as a source of "fact" I will always have a look to see if its the usual disgraceful mix of bent half truths, scaremongering and distortions. Usually I am not disappointed, and it gives me a very good idea of the basis for the posters source of knowledge and experience.
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www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ouch/2011/10/disability_news_roundup_nhs_re.html
Although as iffy points out - no harm in posting links to the Mail - it leads to interesting debates anyway.
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We were discussing the costs of Motability cars.
This has nothing to do with the Mail.
The tired old rants against it are irrelevant.
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If its used as a source, of course its relevant. Especially when it brings the whole debatable subject factual matter into disrepute both on here and the wider public discussion.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 09:45
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Facts from a newspaper like the Daily Mail? Sensation headlines is their forte.R/W.
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>> Radio 4 ran an excellent programme a couple of years ago on Motability - apparently
>> it's the biggest fleet of leased cars in Europe.
Not only that, but as mentioned further up I reckon that, if the Motability fleet has 580k car on it (source: their website) and they are all on 3 year leases then Motability must buy almost 200,000 cars a year. That's around 10% of all new cars sold!!
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...can get a Pug 3008 diesel auto for about £500 a year...
Stu,
I think Motability will want the full mobility allowance for the car, about £50 a week or £2,500 a year.
The £500 will be the advance payment.
www.motabilityonline.co.uk/carsearch/paginatedSearch.htm
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From professional experience Motability attracts a lot of jealousy in certain quarters.
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I will be very pleased if I never qualify for it.
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The costs of being genuinely disabled are seemingly unlimited even to those who are in the supporting role, so any respite is a big help.
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Well I certainly wouldn't begrudge a a multiple amputee squaddie the car of his choice...!
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www.cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/motability-announce-a-raft-of-changes-to-charity-scheme/56976
An article cast in slightly different language...
And the Daily Mail have added this bit in italics to the end of the original piece.
"Last Sunday we said some 3,200 families of children with Attention
Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder were believed to have been given cars under the Motability scheme. In fact that total is the combined figure for two categories of recipients of the Higher Mobility component of the Disability Living Allowance and includes other behavioural disorders. Recipients choose whether or not to spend their allowance on a Motability car; generally about 30 per cent do so. Also, we described the qualification for the Lower Mobility component, rather than the Higher Mobility component required to claim a car, for which individuals must be declared virtually unable to walk."
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 16:18
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Motability rule changes. - smokie
