Some friends bought a car via ebay some time ago. It wasn't in the condition it was described as, it was much worse and also the mileage is false. They think the seller knew this which is why he sold it.
Fast forward some time and paypal hasn't refunded the money as it is a car purchase. They have taken the seller to court to return their money as the car wasn't as described. Seller is in Scotland. Friend's solicitor says English law applies so they might stand a chance of getting money back. Seller is contesting this and trying to have Scottish law applied which has the 'tough luck' clause ie if the thing isn't right it's always your problem. Not sure how that is considered fair when the seller has lied but still. Seller is running up costs left right and centre, probably on legal aid. They are paying their own way.
They paid by paypal and didn't test drive it before paying as they assumed the seller wasn't a liar. Personally I think they were a bit daft in doing this. I wouldn't have paid unless the car was right and would have risked walking away but as car was 400 miles away from where they live so it seems reasonable to pay via paypal especially when it would be natural to assume paypal would refund in the case of item not being described as it does with just about every other item type. I'm not even sure you can go and pick up something without having paid first.
Car was £3k so not an amount you can just right off. Had the seller been honest about the condition and mileage they wouldn't have bought it. The car was listed with some faults but not all of them by any means which took it from a reasonable buy to an unreasonable one.
Personally I think a) the seller should pay the difference in cost to get the car into the condition it was described and compensation for mileage discrepancy or b) get the car back and give them a full refund + their costs as he could have done the decent thing and refunded them straight away, but didn't. I suspect the former would be the cheapest for the seller.
Anyone any idea of how this is likely to go? They are facing having to stump up £300 just to even get a hearing then have to go and find a way of making this person pay up if they win. Odds seem to be stacked against them.
I certainly would never buy a car using paypal. You get stiffed twice.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Nov 11 at 21:17
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£300 to get a hearing?
Scottish Small Claims court is more like £30
However, buying from a private individual is Buyer Beware in all probability.
Did they ask the questions, were they answered truthfully or a lie?
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>> £300 to get a hearing?
>>
>> Scottish Small Claims court is more like £30
>>
>> However, buying from a private individual is Buyer Beware in all probability.
>> Did they ask the questions, were they answered truthfully or a lie?
>>
They went from the fleabay description I'm assuming. Ebay have said they need to contact the police!
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There are, I believe, bars in Partick where letting it be known there was £300 in it for someone who could sort out a full refund would almost certainly elicit a positive response...Scots law is indeed different
;-)
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>>but as car was 400 miles away from where they live so it seems reasonable to pay via
>>paypal especially when it would be natural to assume paypal would refund in the case of
>>item not being described as it does with just about every other item type.
A fool and his money... I have little sympathy for them, I'm afraid.
Is this a trader, or a private individual?
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Small deposit via PayPal. Balance in cash on collection (and inspection)
If the seller won't accept this, don't bid.
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Unless the car was an unusual and hard to find model I can't understand the wisdom of a 400 mile journey to buy it. Second hand motors are not exactly thin on the ground.
And as for buying a used car in a private sale without a test drive, the seller may be a rogue but they were simply begging to get shafted.
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>> Unless the car was an unusual and hard to find model I can't understand the
>> wisdom of a 400 mile journey to buy it. Second hand motors are not exactly
>> thin on the ground.
>>
>> And as for buying a used car in a private sale without a test drive,
>> the seller may be a rogue but they were simply begging to get shafted.
>>
You couldn't find out about false mileage with a test drive though. It didn't come to light until later. Not all faults are apparent during a short test drive either and can be disguised eg putting in thicker oil to disguise whining gear box etc. Cleaning off engine bay to hide oil leaks.
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Buyer is a private individual. I'm assuming the seller is too.
I don't know why they didn't do the deposit via paypal and pay the balance in another way. Would seem sensible.
It's a clear case of misrepresentation on the seller's part though. They said it was in a certain condition with a certain mileage and both of those statements were false.
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>> It's a clear case of misrepresentation on the seller's part though. They said it was
>> in a certain condition with a certain mileage and both of those statements were false.
Condtion is subjective and open to interpretation, Mileage is not
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Engaging a lawyer is a waste of money.. Small Claims Court and DIY is the only economic way.
They need to be able to prove condition was not as described.. which means some independent report in writing.
And proof the mileage was wrong..
But paying in full unseen from a private seller and no road test suggests to meet even the small claims court would say they were partially to blame.. If they were not competent to check, should have had professional help.
Proving misrepresentation requires a clear case well presented with coolness, thought and preparation - qualities not in evidence in their buying.
Last edited by: madf on Thu 3 Nov 11 at 19:44
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An HPI check as a minimum is sensible when buying privately.
We did that in Spain, when buying our UK registered Alhambra tdi, from another expat, for the trip back.
We still have the car and have put on 11,000 miles since we bought it in December last year, with no real problems (so far!).
Hugely impressed with the economy - around 45mpg overall, which is good, IMO, for a big square lump
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 3 Nov 11 at 19:59
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The husband is still in the dog house over this!!
I think there is blame on both sides. Whether being a bit foolish means someone can shaft you totally is another matter. I'd hope not.
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They were just unlucky chabelly, I've made 177 purchases on ebay using PayPal, with good results,
Never bought a car though, I feel uneasy about doing that on ebay.
Caveat emptor!
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I have bought a car unseen on ebay, but it was from someone I recognised as an official in the owners club, and it was for a lot less than £3,000.
I think ebay is OK for buying cars IF:
1) It is cheap
2) It's a model you know well
3) You are confidant that whatever else you find might be wrong with it, you have the experience and skill to fix.
4) It's scarce or you can't find one locally
In my case there were lots of photographs, highlighting good and bad points, especially the areas known to be weak on that model, and the seller answered specific questions knowledgeably and I felt, honestly.
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>>>They paid by paypal.... as car was 400 miles away from where they live so it seems reasonable to pay via paypal especially... I'm not even sure you can go and pick up something without having paid first.
What on earth posessed them... you never ever pay for a large value collection item with paypal... cash when you've seen it every time. One of the most popular scams is to get advance payment for big ticket items that don't exist in reality... it's happening every week on the biggest boat sales website at the moment.
Shame we can't see the ebay listing to judge if the clues were there... I bet they were.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 4 Nov 11 at 09:12
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I once bought a car on ebay. Seller (Trader) met me at the train station and we had a long test drive on the way back, paid the money and off we set home. On the way home it started to over heat.
RAC called and they said it was the Head Gasket. Rang the seller and before I could say anything he offered a full refund. He was a decent chap an I expect he could of told me to do one but I supoose I was lucky with him being an honest member of society.
Bought another car from eBay. very cheap VW Golf Gti. Seller was a really nice guy on the phone and when I met him.
It was a nice car and only cost £600 but there was faults with it - but that could have been me being picky - I should of had a proper test drive of it rather then a glance over and once around the block. At the end of the day I learnt then that cheap cars are on ebay for a reason.
What car did your friends buy and how old was it?
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I'm not going to mention make or model or location as it is going to court so I don't think it would be sensible.
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>> I'm not going to mention make or model or location as it is going to
>> court so I don't think it would be sensible.
There's no 'sub judice' rule to stop public discussion of cases in the civil courts - judges are sufficiently robust not to be predjudiced. Neither are the press likley to pay much attention.
Your call obviously but I cannot see mention of the model (unless it's very rare) leading to identification of the parties.
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I don't know what possessed them either. Think they just pay by paypal for everything on there so it was a natural thing to do as they assumed paypal would offer some kind of protection. It offered just as little as paying by cash or bank transfer.
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The problem here is that they did receive the goods, so the contract has been fulfilled in Paypals eyes.
Reverse the situation, chap sells a perfectly good car and the buyer finds one round the corner the following day for a grand less, so starts a Paypal dispute to get their money back, how can Paypal or Ebay be expected to mitigate or judge who's right and who's wrong.
I use PP regularly and often in preference when buying stuff out of ebay that has to be sent, many non ebay intenet sellers now offer paypal, if it's a collect item though i always pay by cash.
I'm suspicious if sellers want paypal for a collect item, any normal seller wants to save on charges so want cash every time.
Paypal only for a car to be collected? i'd keep well away.
Ebay classifieds for car sales i prefer to Trader now, lots more photos and room for a proper description, the description is where you judge your seller the more they waffle the more clues they give away, feedback helps a little too even if it's a classified as you can see how the seller has previously performed for other stuff, it's not perfect but it gives clues.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Fri 4 Nov 11 at 12:06
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I don't know what payment methods the seller would have accepted. It's a while ago since it was bought. I'd have used paypal but paid a deposit first then the balance when I'd actually seen it and was satisfied it was ok.
Police are now involved and coming round to inspect the car. I'm assuming they think there is something up with the deal or they wouldn't bother. I hope it isn't stolen.
I did actually tell them not to buy it because a) it was a jag and b) it was flipping miles away.
They have bought another jag from a dealer since then that has turned out to be ok. Same price as the duff one so it is possible to buy a decent car for the money.
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>> I don't know what possessed them either. Think they just pay by paypal for everything
>> on there so it was a natural thing to do as they assumed paypal would
>> offer some kind of protection. It offered just as little as paying by cash or
>> bank transfer.
>>
How do they pay their PayPal bills ?
If it's by credit card can't they do a chargeback on the credit card and let Paypal chase the seller for the money.
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>> How do they pay their PayPal bills ?
>> If it's by credit card can't they do a chargeback on the credit card and
>> let Paypal chase the seller for the money.
>>
I don't know how they paid it. I'm assuming paypal or bank balance rather than credit card as it was for a car.
Ebay and paypal seem to specifically exclude car purchases from any of their money back guarantees which they offer for other goods so I'd assume the above wasn't possible even with a credit card payment.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 4 Nov 11 at 16:59
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>>
>> I don't know how they paid it. I'm assuming paypal or bank balance rather than
>> credit card as it was for a car.
>>
Yes but if they pay their paypal bill with a credit card I understood that the credit card company can credit you back the money from PayPal then it's in Paypal's hands to chase the seller for the money.
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Typical Flea bay.
I listen to so many negative things about e-bay and my neighbours been shafted so many times I have always tried to avoid.
Last X-mas purchased some specialist music software for my daughter, loads of money £276.00, when it arrived not what we ordered. 6 months of drama since. Turns out to be a company in CA using .co.uk address ! no Address registered in States so Credit card company will not refund us ! unless we have a returns address and they don't reply to e-mails.
My Youngest daughter just purchased some expensive boots on e-bay, turned out to be a fraud so now pursuing that one as well ! 2 purchases I have ever made & 2 loads of grief ! why on earth anyone would by a car via e-bay is beyond me !
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I've been on ebay for 9 years, over 400 transactions.. and never lost any money.
I must be lucky... or check the sellers and buyers carefully .
I am unsure of which so am hastily touching wood.
I have used paypal to buy from other than ebay and never had any problems.
My Paypal account was once hacked for $400... got my money back with no problems..
I guess it's luck :-)
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I have 400 feedback over 9 years, so probably 600 items or more. I've had my fair share of glass items put in the post wrapped in a brown envelope, items that turned out not to be what the seller thought. Have I lost money on items? Yes of course. Have I bought items that I would never have found elsewhere? Yes. Have I found absolute bargains? Yes. Have I saved thousands of pounds compared to buying new/in shops? Yes. Have I dealt with absolute scoundrels? Yes. Have I dealt with charming helpful people? Yes, the majority.
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I've bought a few cars from ebay over the years and haven't had a problem yet. I've paid cash for everything I've bough, and test driven the car before handing over money - all the sellers I've dealt with have been fine with this. The dealer I bought our first Espace from (PW Cars) was superb - free coffee, long test drive, all questions answered honestly. I don't mind travelling a distance to pick up a car provided the seller comes across as honest - a couple of emails and a phone call usually weeds out the crooks.
I've experienced ebay from the other side as well - while trying to sell a car. The types of buyer an ebay ad seems to attract were quite honestly somewhat disturbing. I had one guy trying to force a handful of cash onto me while telling me he didn't want any paperwork and wasn't going to sign the V5, and another apparently trying to kill me on the test drive, so I can understand some sellers being jittery.
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The whole test drive issue is a problem with car buying from a private seller. There's nothing to stop someone from taking your car for a spin and damaging it and walking away eg over revving or bad gear changes or general unsympathetic driving. But if you drive them in it they don't like it even though you learn more about how the car will be from their driving style than you'd necessarily learn from driving it yourself.
Mileage discrepancy on the jag is substantial. It was sold with 80 ish k and has probably done more like 150k + from what can be pieced together from MOT history online thingy. Why the DVLA aren't tearing strips off owners that have dodgy mileages noted I do not know. So easy to pick up. Why is the mileage recorded at MOT time if no action is taken when it has suddenly reduced??
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>>you learn more
>> about how the car will be from their driving style than you'd necessarily learn from
>> driving it yourself.
>>
>>
Ah, someone who agrees with me. I've been arguing this point for years, saying that an observant passenger can pick up faults much better than the nervous driver in an unfamiliar car.
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>> >>you learn more
>> >> about how the car will be from their driving style than you'd necessarily learn
>> from
>> >> driving it yourself.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> Ah, someone who agrees with me. I've been arguing this point for years, saying that
>> an observant passenger can pick up faults much better than the nervous driver in an
>> unfamiliar car.
>>
You probably need to do both really. Let them drive you. Then try it yourself somewhere quiet to check for any real gremlins eg poor gear change quality or funny steering feel. Some faults really aren't apparent until you've had the car a while eg slow leaks.
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Ebay car purchase disaster... glad it isn't me! - Falkirk Bairn
