In today's DT they were road testing the new Civic - it got a thumbs up in the main.
The fact was stated that Honda had lost 50% volume was " a surprise to me" yet on reflection it could have been more.
General car market is moving to smaller cars -
Jazz is not really that small and is not cheap / entry car.
Civic 2006-2011 is/was a bit marmitey -
Accord - Priced out of the former price point
No Sports car
No MPV
Hybrids - yes but how many buy a hybrid when a small diesel is more economical and a lot cheaper
In the US Honda has a broad range to meet the market
In the UK......................
Plan of action ? What would you do if you were in charge, how would you build the numbers?
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I'd imagine that they've either decided that there's no money in chasing volume, and/or at current exchange rates they're better off not importing cars from outside the UK and just selling those built here.
If they've managed to double the profit/unit, which isn't entirely impossible given the level of discounts around in the UK, then perhaps it's all going to plan!!
Peter
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Honda need to get rid of their "old person's car" image but how they do it I don't know. They tried and mainly failed with the last Civic and elsewhere in the world the Jazz is seen as a young person's car and not one step away from an electric scooter as it is here.
The new Civic looks good but I have a feeling I know who will b e buying them!
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>> Honda need to get rid of their "old person's car" image but how they do
>> it I don't know. They tried and mainly failed with the last Civic and elsewhere
>> in the world the Jazz is seen as a young person's car and not one
>> step away from an electric scooter as it is here.
>>
The sportier Civic models seem popular with young lads, but then they have absolutely no interest in the more ordinary models.
The Jazz image in the UK is weird - apparently in the Far East it's the car that all the young people want to own.
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Honda can make cars for everyone, but they forgot their core buyers, who have been welcomed with open arms by the likes of Toyota, Kia and Hyundai, who offer cars that are good value, well made, nice to drive and with proper warranties.
Toyota's dealerships and servicing costs are IMO the industry standard, if Kia/Hyundai come up to Mr T's standards of dealer costs/service then Honda will have a struggle to get their forgotten loyal customers back.
If i was in charge i'd start by making my cars simply handsome as they used to be, and only bolt silly spoiler type bits of trash on together with solid springs for those few customers who want such things as extras.
Also i'd return to simpler designs for mainstream cars with durable simple easy to drive proper auto boxes.
Oh and at the very least match the above makers warranties.
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Putting a larger engine in the S2000 with much higher gearing would've kept it alive.
Ignoring turbo-charging petrols has been their single biggest error of judgement - similar to the old boss of Renault laughing at other makers going over to 16v engines - "8v engines have better torque at the usable rev range" says he.
Idiot.
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I've been toying with the idea of buying a Jazz as it seems the right car for my needs. But no spare means I have to negotiate one and to put it bluntly, their specification policy sucks.
Basically, very few options, but different 'packages'. And some things I might like are packaged with things I certainly don't want - even if you gave them to me.
The policy must have cost them sales although I'd not be so bold as to put a number on it.
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>> Basically, very few options, but different 'packages'. And some things I might like are packaged
>> with things I certainly don't want - even if you gave them to me.
>>
That was always the Japanese way - the first Jazz even had a very limited colour range. It alllows Honda UK and the dealers to have most variants available from stock or on short delivery. They used to fit a lot of things at the dealer - it's not very long ago that a/c was a dealer fit option on Civic.
The market in the US is very much like that too for all makes - most US buyers won't wait, they literally change cars in a couple of hours, so they dealer has to have the right spec cars in stock, so they tend to have more things as standard than we get.
I must admit it caused us an issue when switching from previous model Jazz to the current one. We agonised for about 3 days over which trim level to go for - I really didn't want the 16" alloys and glass roof is pointless - it's my wife's car and I doubt she's ever opened the blind!
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>> Putting a larger engine in the S2000 with much higher gearing would've kept it alive.
I think they put a larger engine (2.2?) in for some markets - didn't they drive one on 5th Gear a few years ago? Could be wrong.
Last edited by: Focus on Sat 12 Nov 11 at 22:53
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>> Putting a larger engine in the S2000 with much higher gearing would've kept it alive.
You dont slap a bigger engine in a 10 year old car, certainly wont keep it alive. It was only ever a peripheral car to Honda, selling 20,000 in 10 years across the whole of europe.
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Keeping it at around 230g/km CO2 through it's like was stupidity.
See also Subaru for similar stupidness with their 3 litre auto Legacies.
My Forester would easily have pulled 30+mph/krpm in top gear, but it was geared at under 24mph/krpm - awesome for zooming past traffic - rubbish for Euro fuel economy tests.
Also when the S2000 first came out it was easily a match for the Boxster/Z4 which then started to push ahead while the S2000 did little other than modify handling behaviour.
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>> In the US Honda has a broad range to meet the market
>> In the UK......................
There it is in a nutshell. We had this discussion sometime ago. Honda aren't interested in the UK, otherwise they would sell some of their more enticing vehicles here.
>> No Sports car
There does seem to have been a trend for Jap makes to give up on sports cars and coupes.
The Honda Prelude was a decent machine, even if the last model shape was a bit americanised.
Last edited by: corax on Sat 12 Nov 11 at 22:52
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Honda know what they are doing.
They increased sales in the states by 50 in the years 1999 - 2007, and they are only 20% down on their pre financial crisis figure. 5 of the top 10 most fuel efficient cars sold in the states are Honda. Sales of the new model civic are better than the old in in the eurozone.
You lot may not like it, but the rest of the world does. And frankly the UK car market counts for squat to a global player.
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...And frankly the UK car market counts for squat to a global player...
The Far East makers have a nickname for the UK market along the lines of: 'The land of easy money'.
They can put a few cheap toys on their cars and sell them for a lot more than elsewhere.
If the UK market counted for squat, they wouldn't be here.
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>> ...And frankly the UK car market counts for squat to a global player...
>>
>> The Far East makers have a nickname for the UK market along the lines of:
>> 'The land of easy money'.
>>
>> They can put a few cheap toys on their cars and sell them for a
>> lot more than elsewhere.
>>
>> If the UK market counted for squat, they wouldn't be here.
So why have some pulled out and others are planning to? Why dont they try and sell more if its so profitable?
Your information is about 40 years out of date iffy, they dont make much money here, its due to exchange rates,
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...Your information is about 40 years out of date iffy...
The exchange rate/recession may have had an impact, but only in the last two or three years.
The only maker I can think of who has pulled out is Daihatsu, and they've always been in and out of the UK market.
Niche maker anyway.
Are Proton and Subaru still with us?
Doesn't really matter because they sell so few cars it makes no difference either way.
Don't know which others makers are planning to pull out of the UK.
Honda are struggling because they've failed to update their products in a way the customer likes, and they've failed to meet the challenge of trading in a difficult market.
Kia, Hyundai, Nissan and Toyota are doing all right.
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>> Honda are struggling because they've failed to update their products in a way the customer
>> likes, and they've failed to meet the challenge of trading in a difficult market.
And there is the point, Honda is NOT struggling, as I said further up the thread they are doing very nicely elsewhere thank you because thats the market they have chosen.,
>> Kia, Hyundai, Nissan and Toyota are doing all right.
Nissan did so well the french bought them. Oh and Toyotas market share fell 15% last year. In the UK.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 13 Nov 11 at 09:35
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...Nissan did so well the french bought them...
Now your information is out of date - things have moved on since the sale, merger, or whatever it was.
Qashqai, X-Trail, Micra and particularly, Juke.
It comes down to good products and always will.
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>> ...Nissan did so well the french bought them...
>>
>> Now your information is out of date - things have moved on since the sale,
>> merger, or whatever it was.
>>
>> Qashqai, X-Trail, Micra and particularly, Juke.
Indeed, the Squashy, micra was designed by the French. as was the juke.
Look at the end of the day,. this anti honda down on here has one root cause and one root cause only. They have updated their products to be attractive looking, whereas they were boring looking old sheds. The stick in the mud, luddite old duffers in here dont like it. problem is the rest of the world and europe does.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 13 Nov 11 at 09:44
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edit Toyota, not market share - sales volume.
It may surprise everyone to know that Honda sold 63000 vehicles in the uk last year. Thats more than kia and only 20k behind Toyota.
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Back in the 1990's Nissan built up a mountain of debt in trying to compete directly with Toyota and become Japan's number one car maker. The alliance with Renault (not a merger or taleover) led to each party taking a shareholding in the other, and to the appointment of the Renault CEO as Nissan CEO.
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>> Back in the 1990's Nissan built up a mountain of debt in trying to compete
>> directly with Toyota and become Japan's number one car maker. The alliance with Renault (not
>> a merger or taleover) led to each party taking a shareholding in the other, and
>> to the appointment of the Renault CEO as Nissan CEO.
And the Renault share of Nissan was three times bigger than the Nissan share of Renault.
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True - last year Renault held 44.3% of Nissan (originally 35%) and Nissan 15% of Renault. But it still wasn't a takeover.
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>> In the US Honda has a broad range to meet the market
I noticed that - they do have a really wide range in the US, and they have the upmarket Acura vehicles too.
They've only recently started to sell Jazz (called Fit) there and I saw absolutely loads of them on a recent trip to California.
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One major issue has been the last generation Civic, no more reliable than a Focus or any other Eurobox and Honda's main selling point was reliability.
I do really like the Accord, and if I had £20k+ to spend would consider it, but the rest of Honda's range bores me.
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They've always been in that "not-quite-premium" niche alongside Saab and Volvo, and look how those two have fared in the last decade. Honda are doing well to survive without having the benefit of spreading their development costs over other brands.
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Have to wonder with increasing levels of 'old duffers', in this current climate maybe the only ones with any ready cash to throw at a new car, maybe going back to core buyers wouldnt be a bad thing.
New Civic looks quite dull so maybe thats where they are going.
Last edited by: FoR on Sun 13 Nov 11 at 10:05
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"Have to wonder with increasing levels of 'old duffers', in this current climate maybe the only ones with any ready cash to throw at a new car, maybe going back to core buyers wouldnt be a bad thing."
Agree entirely. If I were running Honda I wouldn't care what the average age of my customers was as long as I sold cars.
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Problem with that argument that your market is gradually dying off. The generation below who currently believe that Honda's are for old people won't themselves change their minds when they get to 60 and think its time to buy a Honda - they won't see themselves as "old". and will still think Honda is not for them.
The problem has very much affected clothes retailers like m and S who go to great efforts not to be seen as an old person's store. One of the major reasons for the decline of the Coop was inability to market to a younger generation
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>> The generation below who
>> currently believe that Honda's are for old people won't themselves change their minds when they
>> get to 60 and think its time to buy a Honda - they won't see
>> themselves as "old". and will still think Honda is not for them.
>>
I don't think that it is certain as you think - I'd like to see some hard data on this. From personal experience, my motoring tastes have changed as I have got older, and I don't give a PFD what people think about my car any more!
I agree with Avant - there is a niche to be exploited in the "Grey Buyer"
It seems that nearly every new car that is launched these days has a spokesman from the manufacturer bleating on about "appealing to a younger audience". (You've only got to look at the inside of recent Ford's to see what I mean. )
It's getting a bit irritating, to be honest.
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It's simple:
Older people buy and large will buy things targeted at a younger market - It makes them feel younger
Younger people will not buy things targeted at an older market - They don't want to be seen as old fogeys.
All advertising is therefore directed at a younger market.
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>> Older people buy and large will buy things targeted at a younger market - It
>> makes them feel younger
>>
Which is why you see so much mutton dressed as lamb.
Pathetic. (in its old-fashioned meaning derived from "pathos")
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>> One major issue has been the last generation Civic, no more reliable than a Focus
>> or any other Eurobox and Honda's main selling point was reliability.
No, the last generation Civic was extremely reliable, far more than the current model. No more reliable than a Peugeot 307 or Renault Megane? Come on. I think you need a good nights sleep.
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"No, the last generation Civic was extremely reliable, far more than the current model. "
What are you calling the last generation the seventh or eighth?
1 First generation (1973–1979)
2 Second generation (1980–1983)
3 Third generation (1984–1987)
4 Fourth generation (1988–1991) - EC, ED, EE, EF
5 Fifth generation (1992–1995) - EK1, EG, EH, EJ1, EJ2
6 Sixth generation (1996–2000) - EK9, EK4, EK5, EK3, EJ6, EJ7,EJ8, EJ9, EM1
7 Seventh generation (2001–2005) - EM2, ES1, EP2, EP3, EU1
8 Eighth generation (2006–2011) - FD2, FA1, FG1, FG2, FA5, FK, FN
8.1 2009 facelift
9 Ninth generation (2012–)
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 13 Nov 11 at 10:33
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>> What are you calling the last generation the seventh or eighth?
>>
I'm thinking seventh generation, but maybe he means eighth generation, in which case he'd be right - soon find out when he wakes up. I don't even think about the latest model - far too new and shiny for me to even contemplate, that's for the loadsamoney and cast iron warranty brigade.
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>> >> One major issue has been the last generation Civic, no more reliable than a
>> Focus
A focus is reliable enough for me thank you.
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To someone who chose to own, ride and drive more Hondas than any other make since 1966 I am at a complete loss to figure out how they have managed to go so far wrong in recent years.
The French don't rate Hondas at all and the dealers (few and far between on the whole) seem to have sold more of the 'plastic scooter-style' Civics than anything else in recent years. But all it seems to have meant is that they are now over-stocked with Civics a couple of years old and other concessionaires have them lying around for ages as well because the French have gone back to the home stuff.
All very sad.
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I was meaning the 2006–2011 model, which is the last generation as the new one is out pretty soon.
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>> The French don't rate Hondas at all
I'm not surprised. I can't imagine a Honda appealing to the French mindset. And their home stuff is, if I'm not mistaken, cheaper to repair than here.
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Yeah but you don't pay the premium for the Focus on the second hand market, where as with the Civic you do. Rather like the Golf, pointless second hand prices due to perceived image.
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Not entirely pointless; brand new they cost a similar amount, and you get more back when you sell it. Buying second hand you'll still see most of the premium back on resale , and (at least in the Golf) you won't have to drive around in a car with a dashboard styled on a fisherprice mobile 'phone ;-)
Peter
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Honda has achieved the classic repositioning error with the Civic, targeting and largely missing new market segments while alienating the old ones.
Some of the bling crept in to the CRV with silly bits of silver painted plastic appearing on the steering wheel and elsewhere - who's that for?
The competition has got better as well - as somebody else said, Hyundai/Kia are probably eating some of Honda's lunch now with their small/medium size cars.
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>> Honda has achieved the classic repositioning error with the Civic, targeting and largely missing new
>> market segments while alienating the old ones.
Do we know that? I seem to see many more gen 8 "bling" civics on UK roads than the older gen 7.
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Insufficient data :-)
You may be right - perhaps I am extrapolating too far from what I perceive.
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>> Honda has achieved the classic repositioning error with the Civic,
+1
I think introducing the space age looking Civic (2006 onward) was a big mistake. The car was not up to everyone's taste. It building quality/reliability was shoddy and it also left a big void in Honda's previously nice line ups.
Honda's #1 selling point was reliability. The current Civic already dented that badly. Also when Kia/Hyundai offers longer warranty at cheaper price Honda does not have anything to standout.
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With personal experience of the FK3 Civic I'd say that it was a brave move by Honda and I applaud that. The car was flawed in my opinion (suspension, visibility) and the reliability was well below that which I expected from Honda (almost as bad as Vauxhall in my experience). None of this detracts from Honda's attempts at design flair, I sincerely hope that the new Civic fixes these problems and lives up to Honda's former reputation for reliability.
As for pricing, whilst the Civic FK3 remained affordable, the Accord seems to have moved upmarket making it compete with Audi and BMW which it couldn't quite pull off, a pity because I like the car but am not willing to pay a premium (over VW) for the Honda badge. I wonder whether the increased margin outweighs the former sales volumes ?
I never subscribed to the 'old duffer' image for Honda, the S2000, Prelude and Civic CRXs / VTECs of old plus the various Type Rs surely count for something.
Building cars which are "to everyone's taste" stifles innovation - look at the Ford Escort MK4/5, designed by focus (sic) group and at best dull, the Focus which replaced it was certainly "not to everyone's (conservative) taste" - but it was a cracking car and a major step forward for the sector in which it competes. It's just a pity the FK3 wasn't !
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HJ mentions impressive ride quality.
It beggars belief Honda didn't realise the previous Civic had square wheels before they released it, and didn't correct the problem during its production run.
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The new Civic and CR-Z look very similar!
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>> HJ mentions impressive ride quality.
Looking at the 'review' again, I don't think he's actually driven it yet, has he? It's just a collection of press release info.
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>> Building cars which are "to everyone's taste" stifles innovation - look at the Ford Escort
>> MK4/5, designed by focus (sic) group and at best dull, the Focus which replaced it
>> was certainly "not to everyone's (conservative) taste" - but it was a cracking car and
>> a major step forward for the sector in which it competes.
The story that I heard was that the Focus is called just that because Ford commissioned several "focus groups" to find a name, and they couldn't agree - so "Focus" was adopted as a kind of default!
This could be just tosh - but it makes a good story. :-)
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Honda - Honda UK sales down 50% in 5 years - PeterS
