47mph in a 40, fixed camera - the first I have ever been got by, and one I have passed nearly every weekday since it appeared in 2003 :-(
That was on Wednesday morning (not the usual 35mph procession), NIP arrived just over 48 hours later.
I am surprised to see I will be offered a speed awareness course as I was doing <= 53mph. I'm surprised the tolerance is so big. I have no points so I considered taking the fine, but I expect I'll do the course even though it will presumably cost more and take a day.
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Saves the points, and any insurance increase... ;-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 30 Dec 11 at 19:55
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Bad luck, familiarity breeds and all that. Goes to show how often we switch to autopilot.
Attend the course, from what I have been told its the others on the course that sharpens up your driving, you need to be wide awake to avoid them or their ilk in the future.
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>> Attend the course, from what I have been told its the others on the course
>> that sharpens up your driving, you need to be wide awake to avoid them or
>> their ilk in the future.
Sounds interesting, and a bit scary!
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The tolerance for the offer of a course has recently increased to, I think, 10 per cent over plus nine mph.
That fits with the info in your case, doesn't it - 40 plus 4 plus 9 is 53.
Insurers don't seem too bothered these days about one three-pointer, but they might be about two.
So the best plan is to take the course, rather than use up a life now which you might need later.
If you want more details of the course before they are sent to you, a bit of googling will bring up the provider in your area.
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Mrs B got one a few years ago for failing to spot the camera van in a local village. She found the SAC an education.
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...She found the SAC an education...
I know two people who've done a course and both reluctantly admitted the same.
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>> 47mph in a 40, fixed camera - the first I have ever been got by,
>> and one I have passed nearly every weekday since it appeared in 2003 :-(
You axe wielding murderer you :)
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Like getting a gold star or a red gong at primary school.
Nothing to do with safety, nothing to do with improving people's driving. It's to do with petty money-grubbing, and further infantilizing the motorist who God knows is already quite babyish enough. Loathsome and irritating.
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>> Like getting a gold star or a red gong at primary school.
>>
>> Nothing to do with safety, nothing to do with improving people's driving.
>>
My second ever speeding ticket a few years ago was just that.
02:00 with nobody about. Relaxed, sober with friends in the car but just a few mph over the 30 as I passed a fixed camera that I knew was there.
NIP with all the gufff about safety.
>> It's to do with petty money-grubbing, and further infantilizing the motorist
>> who God knows is already quite babyish enough. Loathsome and irritating.
>>
No sure about the money-grubbing but certainly more than irritating.
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I did one a few years ago and to my astonishment and eventual pleasure I did learn something and indeed rather enjoyed it. It wasn't run in a "you are all bad people" way at all. It was much more about teaching tricks to avoid being caught again, increasing hazard awareness and very much accepted that most people speed at least some of the time.
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Point taken Humph that the people running these courses don't set out to be annoying. If they did, some of the people on the courses might react noisily!
But I really, really doubt that they could tell me much about driving round all these damn artificial hazards - slowing down to 5-6 mph over the posted limit for the marks on the road for example, or not running red lights more than half a second old (and doing it with due caution of course, but also with conviction).
Perhaps there are tricks I haven't thought of. But there can't be all that many. Perhaps nowadays you would think the same.
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...Perhaps there are tricks I haven't thought of...
One tip on the course is when waiting to turn right, keep the steering wheels pointing straight ahead until the moment you execute the turn.
The reason is waiting to turn right puts you at a relatively high risk of a rear end shunt.
If this happens - and your wheels are still pointing straight ahead - you won't be pushed into the path of the oncoming traffic.
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 30 Dec 11 at 20:54
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>> waiting to turn right puts you at a relatively high risk of a rear end shunt.
True, O Sage. Particularly of course if, like about two thirds of drivers, you drape your motor diagonally across two or even three lanes ensuring that your bum is twice or three times as likely to be kicked.
When I see these I am sometimes tempted to run into them just to prove to them that they are quite unnecessarily, just because of their physical clumsiness and intellectual destitution, IN THE GODDAM WAY. But I am too kind-hearted and too poor to do that, so I don't.
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>>One tip on the course is when waiting to turn right, keep the steering wheels pointing straight ahead until the moment you execute the turn.<<<
I would have thought that since we are a relatively intelligent self selecting group on this forum, (excepting the Mail readers),that we all would have done this as a matter of course anyway.
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Well given that one rarely gets to stop and wait at the point where one will turn right - Yes.
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We could discuss whether the Mail readers should be moving any further to the right.
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...We could discuss whether the Mail readers should be moving any further to the right...
Very good.
Just about everyone on here reads the Mail - or at least its website - judging by the number of whinging posts about it.
Apart from pmh, whose criticism of the paper is much better founded - 'never read it, but I know it's garbage'.
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>>>Apart from pmh, whose criticism of the paper is much better founded - 'never read it, but I know it's garbage'.<<<
and where did I make that statement? :)
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They would of course blame the accident on the moral decline of the country. Part of a huge immigrant scam.
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...They would of course blame the accident on the moral decline of the country. Part of a huge immigrant scam...
Mmm, good point Zero, I'll see if I can build it up into something when I go back to work.
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>> Just about everyone on here reads the Mail - or at least its website -
>> judging by the number of whinging posts about it.
Not many hits from home Iffy. I'm obliged to check it out daily from work as part of 'media monitoring'.
It was the Express's 'ex cons get benefit handouts' that had me mouthing off and embarrassing Miss B in Daventry Tesco on Xmas Eve.
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>>
>> It was the Express's 'ex cons get benefit handouts' that had me mouthing off and
>> embarrassing Miss B in Daventry Tesco on Xmas Eve.
>
I would have thought the thieving MPs have suffered enough and deserve some benefits:-)
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Another snippet from my mate about the course.
They were shown two similar photographs of a group of people in a circle.
In the middle of one of the groups was a bear.
When questioned, nearly everyone on the course failed to notice the bear.
Which, they were told, demonstrates something about observation.
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Well thats just ridiculous., the bear is the one without tattoos.
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...Well thats just ridiculous., the bear is the one without tattoos...
And it's the one who went to the woods during the lunch break.
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The course sounds such a good thing I wonder if it is possible to go on one voluntarily, without having to get caught first?
Not really serious, just a thought.
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You can do better, sign up for one of the drive and survive type courses.
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...Not really serious, just a thought...
Anyone can pay to do a course, although I don't suppose many do voluntarily.
This is one provider:
www.ttc-uk.com/BookSpeedAwareness.asp
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I've never yet seen a comprehensive list of the areas where a SAC is routinely offered to offenders.
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...I've never yet seen a comprehensive list of the areas where a SAC is routinely offered to offenders...
At one time it varied, police force to police force.
I think all forces in England are now in the scheme, but courses are not offered in Scotland.
The offer of a course now seems to be made in all qualifying cases, although I don't believe the speeding driver has any legal entitlement to expect an offer.
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>> At one time it varied, police force to police force.
>>
>> I think all forces in England are now in the scheme, but courses are not
>> offered in Scotland.
Seems to be a joint effort between police forces and LAs. Some burble here -
www.hertsdirect.org/services/transtreets/rsu/driving/safetycameras/speedpoints
£85 and four hours, so slightly dearer than the fine.
The letter included a table of cut-offs for the course eligibility which follows the 10% + 9mph you mentioned, exactly. Doesn't apply in 20mph limits though.
This is the approach to the peccant camera - cunningly hidden in full view of approaching drivers -
www.hertsdirect.org/services/transtreets/rsu/driving/safetycameras/hertscams/cambytown/244/
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www.driver-improvement.co.uk/index.php/home/speed-awareness-scheme
For normal applicants
"The course is an alternative to prosecution, for all speed bands and classes of vehicle speeds except 20 mph zones. Previous driving history will not be taken into account when making an offer."
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Both completely stupid and non representative tests.
One is asked to look for and required to pay absolute visual attention one very small particular part of an overall scene. Its a visual trick.
Completely unrepresentative of the skills required for driving,.
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You missed the gorilla, then?
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of course not, iffy pre warned me, no idea how many passes were made tho.
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Can you imagine being on a course with Zero?
"Shut up, man, or we'll never get out of here."
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I would expect him to take over from the tutor.
:)
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lesson 1
Dont get caught.
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Oh I dunno.
What if you are so focused on something occurring infront of you that you this may represent that you don't see some other hazard developing? For the purpose of this exercise lets say speed cameras or speed limit repeaters cos you missed the first lot.
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>> Oh I dunno.
>>
>> What if you are so focused on something occurring infront of you that you this
>> may represent that you don't see some other hazard developing? For the purpose of this
>> exercise lets say speed cameras or speed limit repeaters cos you missed the first lot.
Even that's not the same as these tests, which are specifically designed to be deliberately confusing and shut down most other cognitive function to carry out the primary request,
Mind given the amount and quality of sinage that now appearing, it appears these test designers have found new work.
I wonder how many people have nearly caused an accident by being forced to read "Take a Break - Dont drive Tired" or do they expect that to wake you up?
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Not sure about no insurance increase, Swiss Tony. Manatee should inform his insurer as otherwise he will not be covered (doctrine of "the utmost good faith"). Maybe you are assuming he will and that they will reward him for his responsible attitude by not making an increase but personally I doubt it.
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Good point re informing insurer. But that won't apply if I do the course and I'm not prosecuted?
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>>But that won't apply if I do the course and I'm not prosecuted?
I wouldn't bank on that, Manatee. I would definitely tell my insurer, course or no course.
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...But that won't apply if I do the course and I'm not prosecuted?...
Correct, the course stops the prosecution before it gets off the ground.
What you have at present is a NIP - notice of intended prosecution - and an offer that if you accept the course, that intention will not be carried out.
No need to inform your insurer, although some insurers have now added a question to their proposals along the lines of: 'Have you ever been offered or taken a speed awareness course?'
You may come up against this if you change insurers at the next renewal.
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When I last renewed the insurance they asked if I had been on a speed awareness course, as well as the usual 'any convictions in the lat x years question'. I hadnt, so no difference to premium.
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...so no difference to premium...
The general thinking is insurers won't load for three speeding points or a course.
Perhaps they now ask the course question because 'yes' makes you a safer driver enabling them to reduce your premium. :)
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>> I wonder how many people have nearly caused an accident by being forced to read
>> "Take a Break - Dont drive Tired" or do they expect that to wake you
>> up?
>>
There's a good recent letter in the DT:
Whenever he reads the sign, Think Bike, Think Biker, he wants to add "Think Bikest".
If the idea of a sign is to wake someone up, then a totally unexpected or nonsensical sign would work best:
Wake UP !
or
Gorillas on road
There are no free lunches
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They're offering these courses more now as the SafetyCamera Partnerships don't get to keep the fixed penalty revenue anymore (hence some of them were disbanded).
By offering the courses more widely it helps the local recently-retired Police Officer job creation schemes.
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Is the speed awareness video available somewhere like YouTube?
PS: Can't open YouTube at work so don't know if the links mentioned by FullChat are the actual courses.
Last edited by: movilogo on Tue 3 Jan 12 at 11:48
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>> Is the speed awareness video available somewhere like YouTube?
Did a search for it but didn't spot it in the results, only people talking about it etc.
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Unlucky as under the 10% + 2mph guidline you were almost "safe".
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Well, I've done the speed awareness course and I enjoyed it.
A bit dumbed down naturally, but mainly good stuff. Two hours speed-related stuff - stopping distances, how fast you would still be going if you were doing 35mph at the point where you would have stopped from 30, how to know what the limit is etc. Very interactive and well paced. I would say about half thought that the limit for a car on a NSL dual was 60, some also thought 50 for a single NSL. Very few knew that the single NSL limit for an LGV is 40mph.
There were two van drivers. One who joined in enthusiastically, the other said he had been a van driver all his working life and didn't know that the van limits for NSLs were 50 and 60, not 60 and 70. Anyway, he said, it didn't matter "because the cameras can't tell the vehicle type". Wrong, said the teacher - some can, and so can bobbies in camera vans! Oddly, despite having learned the speed limits for his vehicle, he was the only one at the end who effectively said he didn't think he'd got any benefit from the course.
There were lots of tips on controlling speed - recognising the triggers and causes, using 3rd in built up areas, how to deal with tailgaters and so on.
The second half was general driving skills and knowledge, and was clearly a revelation to some of those who had no particular interest in driving and had never done any further training. There were group exercises on looking further ahead, observing and anticipating, creating space and time to deal with hazards and unexpected events. Quite a few people thought that a separation of two cars lengths was about right at 30mph. Predictably, not a lot of people knew there were different sorts of white lines.
I don't think I gained a lot of actual knowledge (I do have Roadcraft, which goes a lot deeper than a SAC) but I still came away with some benefit. It was a good attitude adjuster - as one who does his best to play the game, I was feeling it's all a bit unfair and random, and I left with a more positive outlook (which might not endure if I get another one!).
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 3 Mar 12 at 10:52
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>>I don't think I gained a lot of actual knowledge
But confirmed you are driving with a lot of thickos on the road ?
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>> >>I don't think I gained a lot of actual knowledge
>> But confirmed you are driving with a lot of thickos on the road ?
Sounds a bit smug put that way - let's say some people don't give much thought to how they can drive better, or have any thirst for knowledge judging by the amount they came with! One admitted she had no idea how to check her tyre pressures (she has an Audi that probably gets serviced once a year).
On the whole the attendees took it quite well - at least partly because it was delivered very professionally as training, not a ticking off. I would pay for my wife to go on it (I haven't told her yet...)
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is it delivered by contractors now, I think the AA do it around here.
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Personally your write up supports what I've always thought. Some people have no more interest in cars than they have in their washing machines - by the very fact that we're in a forum about cars, we do.
These sessions must be invaluable for the washing machine types and worth their weight in gold in that respect - if only a low percentage get "something" out of it its proved its value - far better than the blunt instrument of a fixer....wonder how long they'll be allowed to continue under the current regime..hope the self-financing actually works.
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I know it won't happen but I think it would be good if all "minor" offences like speeding, phone use, defective lights, inappropriate fog light use, defective tyres, no mot, etc. had a mandatory training day as a penalty (or part of).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 3 Mar 12 at 11:38
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I guess the logistics of delivering that many courses would be too expensive. My friend has just done one to avoid having 9 points on her licence (she already had 6) but I don't agree with some of the things she told me:-
She was told:-
3rd at 30mph - surely it depends on gear ratios of the car?
Never took in the rear mirror when driving forward unless you plan to stop - I really don't agree with this, surely the basic element of safety is to know what is around you at all times?
That said they know more than I do :)
I did asked if the images of dead children have made her slow down, she said no, but she has slowed down as she can't afford any more points (she got caught speeding twice on the same day, on the same road! so was only offered one course). She knows if she gets 9 points she is only another minor offence away from a ban.
I need to keep an eye on my own speed, on the some of the less busy and quieter roads which are 30 I sometimes creep above 30, still slower than the rest of the traffic but fast enough to get a NIP. I nearly got caught on one such road a couple of weeks back but being observant I noticed the copper with the gun.
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>> Never took in the rear mirror when driving forward unless you plan to stop -
>> I really don't agree with this, surely the basic element of safety is to know
>> what is around you at all times?
>>
She wasn't told that, Rattle. She mis-understood what was said.
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I like to think that! She is not the type of person to miss hear things though and you do hear of mad things on these courses.
LIke these eco driving courses which tell you to change gear early, sod the fact you're labouring the engine and actually using more fuel.
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3rd at 30mph - surely it depends on gear ratios of the car
Well, yes - but then I've never driven a car (and my experience goes back to the late 1980s and cars dating back to 1981) that couldn't be driven happily in third in a 30 zone. I say this rather than 'at 30' because in built-up areas you're seldom cruising at 30 and doing a lot of varying speeds from about 15 up to 30, and third covers that range perfectly and - in most cars, if you have any mechanical sympathy - warns you audibly if you stray above it. As a bonus there's enough engine braking to give you instant control of speed using just one pedal, which in turn improves your anticipation; no need for new brake discs after 25,000 miles!
Rats, are you suggesting your car's gearing is so low that it's begging for fourth before you get to 30? The lowest-geared car I've driven was Mrs Beest's Rover 214SLi, which was an exhausting 4,000rpm screamer on the motorway (and woefully short of headroom), but even that would potter happily around town in third.
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On the third gear thing - WdB makes all the points that were made on my course yesterday, i.e. 3rd will do whatever speed you need in a built up area, give more control, the car will slow when you lift off, and with a modern car you will use materially no more fuel than in a higher gear.
In the general driving part it was suggested that you really need to be checking the mirror every few seconds to keep track of what's around - one or two participants suggested it was only necessary when actually setting off, turning, changes lanes, overtaking etc which was a bit scary.
All perfectly sensible to me. They also covered gears to go, brakes to slow and block changes (less to do, hands on the wheel more) as opposed to going down through the gears which wasn't taught when many of the attendees learned to drive, though it won't be new to anybody here.
There's a limit to what can be imparted in four hours but they certainly had a good go at some basic sensible techniques.
I think Rattle's friend must have got the wrong end of the stick if the trainers were anything like the Herts ones they would be IAM/RoSPA advanced drivers or even police class 1, who would never advise that.
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Its done by the AA round here. Don't ask me how, but my lad has just managed to scrape onto another SAC despite this being his second in 9 months, which according to the rules you are not supposed to be able to do.
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>>3rd at 30mph - surely it depends on gear ratios of the car?
And if you have that many gears! My vintage car only has two gears.
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And yet, perversely, it would probably benefit from multiple gears more than a modern, high-torque diesel engine. 7-speed Mercedes, anyone?
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I must admit to I change into 4th at 30, its just the way I was taught, it feels a lot more relaxed but I may try 3rd and see if doens't make the MPG any worse. The problem is my engine really needs 6 gears or a slightly higher ratio for 3rd. I find that at 30 3rd is too low and 4th is a bit too high.
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where is your torque peak on that motor, rattle?
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>> And yet, perversely, it would probably benefit from multiple gears more than a modern, high-torque diesel engine. 7-speed Mercedes, anyone?
There's a lot to be said for simplicity. The Ford Model T had a crawler first gear for hills and a driving gear for puttering along at 45. Slidingpillar's car if I remember rightly has a torquey, punchy one-litre V twin pulling a super-light sporting cyclecar (no offence Sp).
But: the late-sixties 7-litre Ford Galaxie, with a two-speed auto, used to beat Jaguar 3.8s and the like in saloon car racing.
My sister in New Zealand has a Super Punto or something with a diesel and a six-speed gearbox. I found the gearbox annoying. It doesn't need six speeds.
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the third gear comment does make sense.
on my car 3rd gear at 30mph is good but driving at 33mph feels like i need to change up.
i spose its good to stop me speeding
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I'm glad you enjoyed and found it useful Manatee.
I know a lot of lorry drivers who have chosen to take the course and without fail, all have come away from it having learned something and enjoyed it.
There seems to be a misconception that it's a bit like being sent back to school as a punishment, and refreshingly you've proven that it's nothing like that at all.
Pat
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Pass the dunce's cap...NIP received - swiss tony
