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I know there are a few of you on here who regularly cycle in London.
The death toll last year was appalling, and I look like being involved in some ongoing discussions with TFL and various other bodies as to what can be done.
I know we've had discussion on this before but it would be nice to forget blame and try to be constructive.
For me to do my involvement justice, I need to be able to understand the problem fully, through your eyes.
What do you see as the main cause of the problem and what would you do to solve it?
Thanks for your help.
Pat
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 10 Mar 12 at 00:22
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My grandson put a top Gear DVD on yesterday, we watched the race across London using public transport, a car, and a cycle. The bit that this thread brought to mind was where Richard Hammond, (on the bike) stopped at a red traffic light while numerous cyclists carried on regardless. He said words to the effect of "I have to stop I am on TV". Maybe some enforcement of the traffic laws might help. I feel that cyclists (and motor cyclists) are often their own worst enemy. When I mentioned to an Italian friend That I was amazed that the scooter riders in his small town were suicidal he said not many are killed but lots get knocked off and injured.
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I cycled and drove in London years ago.
Most of the near misses - whether I was on two wheels or in four - were due to the cyclist ignoring the rules of the road, or generally poor or aggressive riding.
My suggestion to reduce casualties would be to concentrate first on rider education.
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I would add that on numerous occasions I have had cyclists squeeze alongside HGVs that I have been driving while I have been stopped in traffic or at red lights. Even If I have been indicating that I intend to turn towards them. Still, no different to many brain dead motorists. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 09:03
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Strangely most recent deaths appear to be Tipper Lorries and most are blind spot near side incidents.
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Pat,
Busy day today, not much time to look at this. I'll try and look up some stuff tonight. Couple of quick thoughts.
Z's looking in the right area. The HGV's involved are disproportionately construction related; tip/skip lorries and cement mixers. There's an education issue for cyclists around passing nearside and generally keeping out of the gutter. Also for drivers about giving space, avoiding pulling alongside and too close behind.
Nearside feeder lanes for advance stop lines are a potential death trap. Camden has just commissioned a whole set of these round Russell Sq where the previous clockwise one way system has been removed. My bugbear is the one in the SE corner as, apart from the usual stuff, the 188 bus goes that way into the Sq to terminate. I've seen several near misses.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 09:22
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Thanks Bromptonaut, there's no rush but I would appreciate your input.
I'm wondering why tippers etc are usually the culprits and wondering if there are proportionately more of those around London than other vehicles.
Building projects (Olympics?), demolition and rubbish clearance skips (highly populated?)...thoughts?
I need to look at this from all angles.
Pat
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As an ex London cyclist/biker, I used to ride on the defensive all the time and take the attitude of 4 wheels bad 2 wheels good and that every car/van/lorry driver was out to get me.
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VISIBILITY and ATTITUDE (in both senses of the word attitude i.e. mindset and arrogance).
Being a motorcyclist I am intensely aware of the dangers of riding on two wheels..and ride accordingly. Even if I have the right of way, have my headlamp on etc, I still ride defensively expecting others to pull out and not see me. I always disliked riding in central London, due to the hectic nature of it and everyone trying to beat the next light and not paying attention enough.
Many, many cyclists do not pay enough heed to their own safety. I am amazed at how many ride around at night with no lights and some with dark clothing as well. You just cannot see them. It's made far worse on wet nights, when the screen has a sheen on it etc.
There seems to have developed a cycling culture, whereby momentum must be retained at all costs...and that, obviously, is dangerous. There are times when motoring or cycling when you need to hang back and let something hazardous happen with a safety buffer, one you've created yourself, no one else will. If you don't you WILL come to grief..and sadly, many cyclists do. I've sat in a queue before and watched a lorry/bus doing an awkward manouevre e.g. turning left...and cringed when some clown has flown up the inside and swerved around it. Madness.
How many cyclists have thousands of pounds worth of bike, hundreds of pounds worth of accessories, yet can't be bothered to pay 4 quid for another set of batteries for the lights?
I'm not saying all cyclists are fools...but in 30 years of policing in London i've seen many fools and had to scoop a few up as well.
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>> I am amazed at how many ride around at night with no lights and some with dark clothing as well. You just cannot see them. It's made far worse on wet nights, when the screen has a sheen on it etc.
Spot on Westpig. And the other thing is hammering down gutters, as many have said.
Personally I don't mind polite and careful pavement riders, and I don't blame anyone for preferring the pavement in many places.
Pizza delivery kamikazes should get a mention too. Some of them do things that seem utterly barking to me.
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>> I am amazed at how many ride around at night with no lights and some with dark clothing as well. You just cannot see them. It's made far worse on wet nights, when the screen has a sheen on it etc.
I was recently given the finger when at about 11 PM at night I turned in to a road to be confronted head on by a totally black cyclist on a BMX going the wrong way at full pelt.
Of course no lights.
If I had hit him or her then clearly I would have been in the wrong!
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Nearly had one this morning while reversing out of my drive.
He had lights, but they were LEDs. Very bright head on, effectively not there at all when seen from an angle (like from the driver's seat of a car in a drive). He did have reflective strips on his (black) jacket.....which were ineffective as my headlamps were pointing the other way. These combined meant he might as well have been riding in a cloak of invisibility.
My bike has an LED rear and a real bulb with a proper beam pattern on the front for this very reason. Uses batteries faster than an LED, but it's my life and worth a few pennies to me.
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>> I don't mind polite and careful pavement riders, and I don't blame anyone for preferring the pavement in many places.
I would add: nor do I have the slightest objection to cyclists or anyone else running red lights provided they do it with due care and don't force anyone to brake or swerve.
They nearly always do it sensibly, but on several occasions over the years I have saved the lives of suicidally inclined ones. Perhaps it would have been better to run over them. Someone was going to sooner or later.
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>>
>> I would add: nor do I have the slightest objection to cyclists or anyone else
>> running red lights provided they do it with due care and don't force anyone to
>> brake or swerve.
You've never ridden a motorcycle around London then? Red light jumping cyclists are worse at spotting bikes than car drivers are!
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>> I'm wondering why tippers etc are usually the culprits and wondering if there are proportionately
>> more of those around London than other vehicles.
Probably yes. Dont forget that at one time a of HGVs were effectively banned from the streets, due to noise & pollution regulations. Dont know what the current regs are or if they were repealed. There is always building going on in London so there is always construction traffic making up a large percentage of the HGV traffic.
However you have to balance this against the other large road user - The London bus. The place is flooded with large London Buses mixing with cyclists, but the resultant death toll is not significantly higher.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 09:59
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That's a good point about busses Z.
Pat
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The bus drivers are local (or at least experienced on their particular routes) and know every inch of the route and where the likely conflict points will be. Many lorries come in from the outskirts of London and sometimes much farther afield, so their drivers may not be quite so "tuned-in" to the London style of driving.
A lorry driver starting from my neck of the woods can spend 2 hours cruising down the motorway with plenty of space and time to manouevre, yet an hour after that they might be threading an 8-foot-wide lorry through 4 lanes of buses, taxis and last-second right-turners at the Angel whilst looking out for a specific gate in a specific building site fence to deliver to. It's no wonder that occasionally a lorry driver might cut a gap a bit tight, and statistically a few of those gaps are going to have a cyclist in them.
I have eyes like a hawk when I drive a 7.5 tonner in London, because I read articles about the risks to cyclists. No near-misses so far.
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As a cyclist (not in London) and a driver (in London) I would put forward the following:
1. Large tippers do seem to be involved in a disproportionate number of accidents. Is that down to poor visibility from the drivers seat? Or poor training of your average tipper driver? As noted above, buses are bigger but have fewer accidents. I don't know, but I would reckon that bus drivers generally have a higher standard of training than tipper drivers.
2. Some cyclists seem to be ignorant of vehicle turning circles, in particular that large trucks need to turn out before turning into tight turns. Car drivers generally are aware of this and give them space. Cyclists seem to ignore or choose to ignore this.
3. All drivers are required to be trained before legally driving on the road. Cyclists are not. It would be impossible to enforce cycle training without registration. However desirable registration might seem to some, it is impractical and would be ignored by too many.
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...
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>> I need to look at this from all angles.
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>> Pat
>>
If you haven't already, check out some Youtube videos searching for "London cyclist". There seems to be an element of looking for trouble among cyclists with helmet cams and the cyclists who are filmed of filming themselves getting into bother seem to be short on anticipation skills e.g. a bus pulling into a bus stop is a bit of a surprise and a cue for some shouting. Couple that with some truly awful driving and it's not surprising there are accidents.
I am a part-time cyclist but have never cycled in London.
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There are certain haulage functions that seem to be above average in causing fatalities. These seem to be contract spoil etc removers. More detail on www.cyclechat.net/ Another aspect is gender: some have cited female KSI as more than expected. Young males are the classic risk takers/rash drivers and riders, but I get the impression it is not that tendency that has afflicted female riders. More a lack of assertion, and the effect of being pinned into the gutter. Final point: bike lanes of the painted type are a menace. Drivers expect them to be used, but they are not, im many cases, usable. As most incidents are at junctions, where the painted lanes evaporate, they are quite useless. They foster conflict rather than road sharing.
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Cyclists don't help themselves by running red lights, riding without lights, and the mind-bogglingly stupid ability to squeeze down the nearside of buses and HGVs.
Many drivers then make things worse by cutting bikes up, stopping in advanced stops at red lights, parking in bike lanes and generally intimidating cyclists.
I suspect that the issue is ignorance on both sides - cyclists fail to appreciate just how invisible they are from the cab of a lorry and the fact that it will cut the corner. Perhaps this is because many cyclists in London (and elsewhere) don't own cars or even have a driving license (thinking of students in Manchester here).
Car drivers don't understand how vulnerable you can be on a bike, and why it's sometimes necessary to take a dominant position in the road. Many people habitually use the "bike box" at lights and then look surprised when you pull in front of them at a red light. Equally, they don't understand the fright you can get if someone passes way too close at high speed, and then can't make the connection with that cyclist then sitting in the middle of the lane the next time they ride down that road.
I would love to make it a requirement that every cyclist has to take a trip round Central London in the cab of an HGV, and vice versa, that every driver has to complete 50 miles on a bike in a busy city before getting behind the wheel. Might sort the problem out nicely.
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There are some really good points being made here and many I hadn't thought of.
Hawkeye, I have looked at those clips in the past but try not to....it makes me angry and I know that it is only a small proportion who ride like that.
I think it was Boxsterboy (I wish I could refer back while posting!), who made the point about training.
The training given to all lorry drivers is the same, as is the training to bus drivers so it shouldn't make a difference.
Norton? I like your point about segregation and is it a good thing?
Pat
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Westpig
Thanks for the input....are there any defensive riding courses for cyclists available anywhere?
Pat
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>>....are there any defensive riding courses for cyclists available anywhere?
>>
>> Pat
>>
The problem with that is that only the enthusiasts (or anoraks like me) would partake and you would be preaching to the converted. A bit like the Institute of Advanced Drivers training and test.
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>> >>....are there any defensive riding courses for cyclists available anywhere?
>> >>
>> >> Pat
>> >>
>>
>> The problem with that is that only the enthusiasts (or anoraks like me) would partake
>> and you would be preaching to the converted. A bit like the Institute of Advanced
>> Drivers training and test.
>>
Very late edit:- IAM training and test.
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>> Westpig
>> Thanks for the input....are there any defensive riding courses for cyclists available >>anywhere?
There must be a standard for cycling training, as I know the Met Police will not let anyone on one nowadays until they pass a cycling course..all the Safer Neighbourhood Teams do them e.g. the PCSOs.
When I became a police driving assessor I had to have an NVQ qualification, all arranged via Hendon Driving School... so my guess is the cycle instructors are working to something formal.
I'm a bit out of it now. Try ringing the driving school and dropping out your credentials, even if they don't do it, they'll probably know who does. If you hit a brick wall, get a friendly Mod to give you my e-mail and i'll pull a favour in.
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Thanks for the offer Westpig, it's much appreciated.
There is so much information on this thread that I need to research properly and collate into something easily readable, it may be a week or two before I can get back to you if I need to, but I will certainly pursue that route.
I want to research the junctions mentioned on Google's streetview, and look at the links provided in depth as well.
Pat
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>> (I wish I could refer back while posting!), >>
Keep open another instance of the same thread in a second tab in your browser.
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>> (I wish I could refer back while posting!)
If you need a second copy of the thread whilst on the Reply screen Pat, go up to the thread title and click on it with the mouse scroll-wheel. Another tab will open with the full thread in it :)
EDIT: Beaten to it by John H! That'll teach me to open about 10 threads and reply to them one at a time...
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 12:39
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>>go up to the thread title and click on it with the mouse scroll-wheel. Another tab will open with the full thread in it :)<<
Something else I've learnt :)
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>> Something else I've learnt :)
>> Me too. :-)
Every day's a school day :D
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Or right click and select "open in new tab" or "open in new window"
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Interesting stuff.
I commuted into london by motorcycle for 3 years, and have two things to add to the discussion from my experience:
1) Most cyclists are really sensible and safe. Some do seem to be possessed with the drive to be as fast as possible and possibly lose sight of their own safety. Boris bike riders tend to be less experienced and road wise (as you'd expect).
2) I was frequently stupefied by the number of cyclists who swerved, turned or otherwise made manoeuvres without looking properly. As a biker (and even when I did my cycling proficiency in the 70s) I always do a 'lifesaver', that last look before you pull out to make sure you're clear. Alot of cyclists don't do that.
HTH,
Alex.
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The only way to stop cyclist getting kiilled or injured on the road is keep the cyclist seperate from motorvehicles.
This cost money and planning.Proper cycle paths it can be done.No good blaming each other.
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We could do worse than import some Dutch expertise. Some training would be required though. I don't speak Dutch but assume I was well cursed for walking on a cycle track in Holland. :-)
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>> The only way to stop cyclist getting kiilled or injured on the road is keep
>> the cyclist seperate from motorvehicles.
No No and a thousand times No and certainly not in Central London.
There is an attempt a segregation along Tavistock St. Trouble is there's not really enough space so it's too narrow to overtake slow riders. trailers etc. It's on one side of the road only and motor vehicle drivers, while most try to respect it's priority, struggle to combine observing the main carriageway with watching the bikes. Turning right out of it, for example into Gower St, is impossible - you need to rejoin the main carraigeway after Malet St.
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No good saying No No Brompt.If it doesn't work and people are getting killed then stop the cyclist.
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Would compulsory fitting of a rear view mirror on the handlebars be any advantage?
Pat
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It is commun sense Pat that when you turn on a bike you look back over your shoulder.
I have seen them on the handlebars when I was a kid.Anything what helps.
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>> Would compulsory fitting of a rear view mirror on the handlebars be any advantage?
>>
>> Pat
I'd say no. I tried one years ago but it was not steady enough to provide a useful image. Modern ones that go on the bar end might be better but no good unless they're used. Don't think compulsion would help.
Regular checks over the shoulder combined with the lifesaver before committing to a pull out are essential though. Listen out as well engine noises, horns, shouts and distant sirens all help the picture of what's around.
Personally I think riding with a music player/earphones is extreeme folly. Others say they're OK with open backed/quiet music, only one ear.
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Afterthought on mirrors.
The relative position of rider and bars vary between different types of bike - even between different models of Brompton for example. You need to look down to the mirror then re-focus on a small shaky image. While doing that you're taking your attention away from the road.
Much better to learn to look over your shoulder as part of general all rond observation. As in driving I try and maintain a scan from road well ahead down to whats in front/alongside and regular checks behind.
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When I cycle to and from work in traffic I have earphones in which may not be the best idea in the world.
However, on the other side, it means that I need to reply on my sight more which means more looking over shoulders etc so maybe I compensate for the hearing.
Never quite sure what the hearing would help with on a bike? My headphones are not loud enough that I wouldn't hear a horn or whatever but do I really need to hear the traffic behind me? I just always assume there is a vehicle on my shoulder.
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>> Never quite sure what the hearing would help with on a bike? My headphones are
>> not loud enough that I wouldn't hear a horn or whatever but do I really
>> need to hear the traffic behind me? I just always assume there is a vehicle
>> on my shoulder.
I find hearing fills gaps and picks up clues. This morning it alerted me (engine note) that the Addison Lee private hire doings behind was contemplating chancy overtake. Last night it was police escorts with whistles - a VIP + outriders about to emerge from a side street. London experience may well differ from Glasgow.
Possible that low music/open backed phones would still let me hear things - never wanted to try it.
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Cycling should be relaxing and safe.Not a gamble with your live.What would you like to see changed Brompt and what would be saver?For cyclist.In Holland it was proven that seperate cyclist from motorised vehicles saved lives,what is different in the UK.?
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You wanna try cycling through Las Americas in Tenerife every day like wot I used to, never mind about blimmin London!
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The trouble is nobody is sober in Tenerive.Spanish plonkies.>;)
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>>The trouble is nobody is sober in Tenerive.Spanish plonkies.>;)<<
True - especialdad the bus drivers, it'sa wonder I'm not brown bread!
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The proof is in the pudding that proper cycle paths are saver you can't convince me otherwise.
Of course be vigilant I wear a reflective jackett.Be aware of traffic give the right signals at the right time and cycle defensively.
If a car or lorry clobbers a cyclist guess who is hurt.Buy a decent bike about 150 pound to start.I see so many people on cheap clapped out bikes no decent brakes or lights you are asking for trouble.
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My opinion is that there needs to be a two pronged approach of education for both Riders and drivers about the 'nearside squeeze' and some level of enforcement/compulsion with regard to visibility of cyclists.
These days it is not unusual to see, or more correctly, almost not see, cyclists due to dark clothing and/or lack of lights; perhaps the time has come to make the wearing of a hi-vis jerkin for cyclists compulsory, they are cheap enough and readily available, and are compulsory on nearly all building sites and I don't see any civil liberty issue as helmets were made compulsory for motorcyclists and seat belts in cars and coaches. Even if a cyclist didn't have lights on a hi-vis jacket would show out in headlights; I for one don't mind having to avoid a cyclist to save a life, we all make mistakes, it would just be nice to see them so I can miss them!
Personally I would also like to see the use of mobiles and headphones looked at, apart from cyclists a lot of pedestrians are in their own little world with headphones on........
Not saying any of this would be a total answer but worth the discussion.
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Some motorist forget that cyclist are taxpayers to.they have a right to be on the road.
I have no problem wearing a High Vis jackett and if cycle paths arn't going to be build make wearing jacketts compulsary.
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>> No good saying No No Brompt.If it doesn't work and people are getting killed then
>> stop the cyclist.
In London I don't think it can be made to work. There's just not the space for seperation and where it has been tried it tends to replace one set of conflicts with another. The default is then to stop the cyclist at every crossing - even driveways. It doesn't stop the 'left hook' (overtake and immdiately turn left) and increases risk to pedestrians.
I understand it works in Holland but your culture is very different.
Cycling in Central London is statistically quite safe, the issue Pat is looking at is the disproportionate toll with HGVs. I'd start with public information films and training for both cyclists and drivers. TfL have already done some good work. There's a film about somewhere and they have roadshows with one of the big firms (Keltbray?) at shows and sometimes in public squares etc.
The problem of course is that the companies having accidents are not the Keltbrays of the world.
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>> I'm wondering why tippers etc are usually the culprits and wondering if there are proportionately
>> more of those around London than other vehicles.
>>
>> Building projects (Olympics?), demolition and rubbish clearance skips (highly populated?)...thoughts?
You know the haulage industry and I don't but are these tasks paid by the load and dependent on casualised perhaps foreign labour?
I think I've flagged it before but Olaf Storbeck's spreadsheet of fatals tinyurl.com/3h7nh5r is a useful resource
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>> Thanks Bromptonaut, there's no rush but I would appreciate your input.
>>
>> I'm wondering why tippers etc are usually the culprits and wondering if there are proportionately
>> more of those around London than other vehicles.
>>
Not often I drive through London lately but when I did, I saw more HGV's connected to building work and waste disposal than anything else. In a constantly developing capital city which probably generates more waste than the rest of the country put together, that's not surprising. No lorry driver in his right mind goes through the middle of London unless he's delivering there.
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I cycled a fold up in London for almost three years, finishing December 2010. I have driven in London and the suburbs for many years (15+) and rode a 100cc motorbike in and out of London for two years as well. I am half Dutch and visit Rotterdam frequently.
Separated routes is best - but as pointed out when we do this you get Tavistock Street. I used that stretch almost every day for three years and suffered near misses from car drivers not understanding why they had to give way to a bike lane (it is a truly ridiculous layout), it is too narrow so people cycling slowly block everyone else (some people cycle so slowly I walk quicker - that is no exaggeration - one woman fell off her bike because she was going so slowly and seemed to forget to put her foot down, I had to call an ambulance for all the claret as she hit her unhelmeted head on the road) and to turn across as a cyclist you often had to cross two lanes of traffic so it was easiest to ride on the road.
The Dutch do this brilliantly. Trouble is they had the space after Hitler levelled Rotterdam - Amsterdam suffers but not as much as London as they just closed roads to cars and have bikes only.
Big problems are ignoring one way roads (especially around the West End), ignoring red lights and sending crossing pedestrians scattering (saw one blind lady almost wiped out by one idiot), ignoring red lights and cycling through crossing traffic, having a really badly maintained bike so chain and brakes are falling off the thing, having no lights and riding in dark colours.
I would require bikes to have number plates of some kind. Trouble is the number of youf on BMXs or terrible riders who would ignore this and then only catch the decent law abiding etc, etc.
I would make a fortune ticketing bikes jumping the red lights on the afore mentioned Tavistock Street junction (every light change sees a dozen between 8 and 9AM).
I would bring back school cycling proficiency test.
I visited China in 2007 and saw the move from bikes to cars taking place. Once in a car you wouldn't want to go back to a bike but that is fine until you get Beijing traffic - which makes London looks free flowing. Want to really make it work and you ban private cars and make commercial vehicles only on separate routes, but that will never ever happen....
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Good points Brettmick.But where there is a will there is a way.
Agree about Rotterdam good city for cars and cyclist .Where my brother lives in Assen it is a pleasure to cycle.Of course if people ignore red lights and behave irresponsible the law should be enforced.Most accidents what have happend in this area with cyclist getting inbetween lorries turning.
Maybe a sign or plate on a lorry to stop cyclist gettin in between the kerb ,just thinking.
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>> Maybe a sign or plate on a lorry to stop cyclist gettin in between the kerb ,just thinking
A lot of lorries already have them:
www.rhaonline.co.uk/custom/images/products/Beware-cyclists-Sticker300.png
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 16:06
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A good sign but what if some cyclist don't take any notice?
We need something to prevent the risktaker to get inbetween .Maybe a rubber bar or something what prevents accidents.Also when a lorrie turns are the mirrows on the lorry sufficient to see the cyclist on his nearside.?
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>> A good sign but what if some cyclist don't take any notice?
>>
... which comes back to education of cyclists.
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Some really good points coming across here now:)
I knew I could rely on you lot!
Stickers....Good idea but I feel the RHA's is a bad example, if I can design what's in my mind ( no hope!) I'll try and post it up.
Another thought is that tipper and skip lorries don't have side under run bars, so could this be a cause of fatalities?
Mirrors..yes we can get then set so that we can see all area BUT we have at least 3 mirrors on the passenger side now and only one pair of eyes to look for everything else going on, so it makes it hard to prioritise at a multilane junction and heavy traffic.
I used to make a mental note of any cyclists I overtook and count them on the approach to a junction if I was tuning either left or right and then try and work out by thier speed if they would become a hazaed for me.
Using this method I have been known to refuse to move when the lights changed if one was 'missing'.....embarrassing when you hold everyone up, but satisfying when that one appears from out of sight somewhere!
Pat
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>> satisfying when that one appears from out of sight somewhere!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8
Pat, search on Google Images for "no cyclists lorry" - it brings up lots of relevant pictures that would be useful in a presentation.
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yesterday's London Evening Standard
www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24026283-families-unite-in-appeal-for-action-to-cut-cycle-deaths.do
Action planned for this evening, shortly, at 6pm:
"Campaigners plan to blockade one of London's busiest junctions ..... to highlight the increase in cycling deaths in the capital.
At 6pm Bikes Alive campaigners will descend on the King's Cross junction where 24-year-old Min Joo Lee died in October. "
Last edited by: John H on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 17:39
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Pat,
My take on this is that we're talking about things the haulage industry can do on its own or with others. Pleas for regualtion or segregation are out of scope.
I take entirely your point about driver's capacity to absorb info. I've made the same point in cycle forum discussions where more mirrors and/or cctv are suggested.
One other suggestion, and I think Boris J has thrown his weight behind it, is mirrors on street furniture at hazardous junctions. Would these help from the truck driver's perspective?
Otherwise, can you engage with the most vulnerable riders in any way. I'm thinking particularly of the number of victims who are young & female. The only link might be the number that are students. Is it worth trying to engage with colleges, perhaps at freshers week?
Might also be worth contacting the CTC and London cycling Campaign.
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Good points Bromp, I certainly don't think it's something any one group can do on it's own.
The groups you mention would make a good start.
I don't think mirrors would help us that much, because there is already so much to take in.
Having said that, I will float the suggestion.
Pat
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>> ... which comes back to education of cyclists.
You can lead a horse to water..........
Cyclists who put themselves at risk by ignorance might be helped by the highlighting of hazards. If good advice is ignored then Darwin awards beckon.
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There are three types at work here
The idiot driver who doesn't see or appreciate the cyclist - Ting Ting - Death
The idiot cyclist who does not appreciate the manoeuvres, visibility or dynamics of vehicles -Ting Ting death
The militant crazy determined to ride into danger because I am anti car cyclist, who causes a lot of agro but strangely rarely get crushed. Why is that?
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>> The militant crazy determined to ride into danger because I am anti car cyclist, who
>> causes a lot of agro but strangely rarely get crushed. Why is that?
Becuase like militant crazy car driver/speeders they know exactly how far they can go.
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Tipper drivers...remember the film Hell Drivers?
These blokes still drive round like they did in the 60's, flat out and keep out of my way.
The problem with 6 and 8 wheeler skip and tipper trucks is that they are incredibly stable, and have fantastic road grip, so they are able be thrown around in a way that would see a normal truck roll over or skid uncontrollably.
They are still paid on a bonus or number of loads or movements in many cases and even if hourly paid are put under enormous pressure to deliver, even though this is reputed to be not kosher, many car transporter companies pay similarly but throw one of them around like a tipper and it'll be all over in minutes.
If any regular London driver hasn't been the victim of skip and tipper drivers i'll eat my hat, quite how you try to change generations of practice in such an industry i don't know, good luck with that one.
Probably the same way as you curb idiotic illegal riding by suicidal cyclists, by hitting them in the pocket, which seems to be where their brains are kept.
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GB,
Thanks for that. We cross posted but you've answered the question I put to Pat; there is a 'culture' issue with tip/skip contractors.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 22:37
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I think every driver knows to avoid Skip lorries, tipper lorries and cement mixers, for the reasons given.
In london it used to be the rule to avoid Evening Standard/ Evening news delivery vans as well.
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cement mixers, for the reasons given.
>>
Forgot them, amazing how quickly they can corner considering the high centre of gravity.
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>> I think every driver knows to avoid Skip lorries, tipper lorries and cement mixers, for
>> the reasons given.
Local skip company is called McCanns - their trucks carry the logo (not conspicously, I will admit) 'McCann, McCann, the Dilligaf man' - they'd be last on my list if I needed a skip
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. - Do I look like I give a f___
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>>many car transporter companies pay similarly
I've come across (well been overtaken by actually) empty, articulated car transporters in the M4 corridor a few times recently, doing 70MPH or more. The latest one didn't have a visible rear number plate on either the tractor unit or trailer.
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>> I've come across (well been overtaken by actually) empty, articulated car transporters in the M4
>> corridor a few times recently, doing 70MPH or more. The latest one didn't have a
>> visible rear number plate on either the tractor unit or trailer.
There are lots of European subbies here at the moment, their speed limiters seem to have intermittent operation;), and a number from the same countries come here and collect damaged cars to take back home.
M4 corridor could also be the Irish contingent, and speed restrictors seem to be an option that isn't ticked on the order form.
I don't know any UK transporter operators that would risk having their trucks running at 70mph any more, VOSA would soon be on them though, might get the odd pilot who lets it overpeed downhill, but it should return to 55 or so once on the level.
I know some blokes who keep a spare ratchet strap across the back of the trailer chassis rails (i didn't by the way), that spare strap happens to cover the trailer number plate.:-)
edit, they might look like artics but in fact are lorry and drags in 99% of cases, the towing hitch is behind the drive axle.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 22:58
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Thanks to all for the input above, it will be invaluable to try and see this problem through a cyclists eyes and not just from the eyes of a lorry driver as I've always done previously.
Now, here's where I try and charm you all:)
I know a lot of you have very creative skills, also have a history of design and more to the point, are bored and love doodling!
There is a virtual bottle of Brouilly to the person who can design a sign that could be used as a poster, but also to fit on the rear nearside of a lorry trailer.
It needs to depict an artic, waiting to turn left, but with NO indicator flashing and a cyclist approaching the rear nearside of the trailer.
It has to state boldly IF IN DOUBT, HANG ABOUT.
It has to catch the imagination and show the indecision of both lorry driver and cyclist.
Off you go:)
I forgot to say please!
Pat
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>> Tipper drivers...remember the film Hell Drivers?
>>
>> These blokes still drive round like they did in the 60's, flat out and keep
>> out of my way.
>> >>
>> If any regular London driver hasn't been the victim of skip and tipper drivers i'll
>> eat my hat, quite how you try to change generations of practice in such an
>> industry i don't know, good luck with that one.
Glad you posted that gb, I was going to post something similar, but chose not to as it was my impression, rather than backed properly by fact, and I wondered if it would add to the debate.
There was an outfit near to where I used to live in London who had a dreadful reputation...for a lot of things.
I wouldn't mind betting drivers at that end of the industry have a mindset of 'couldn't give a ****'.
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>> I wouldn't mind betting drivers at that end of the industry have a mindset of 'couldn't give a ****'.
Of course we have all noticed that tippers expect people to keep out of their way and drive accordingly. But what they don't give a thing about is people's shiny coachwork. Not many would drive over a cyclist and not really care. After all that would cause delays and trouble with the authorities. And even quite thuggish people tend to stop short of actual murder or manslaughter. We don't need to exaggerate.
It's perfectly clear from everything said here, notably by Bromptonaut and gb, that most of these deaths and injuries are caused by imprudent riding on the part of the cyclists. But that's in towns.
We live in a rural area with small roads. My wife has lived here off and on all her life. When she was a child it was thought perfectly all right to let quite young children cycle in the neighbourhood. Not now though. There's more traffic, it goes faster and the road past the end of our approach road is a rat run for commuters. The volume isn't high, but it rises between certain hours and the traffic isn't local, just taking a short cut. Children would definitely be at risk. Makes one shudder to think about it.
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>> It's perfectly clear from everything said here, notably by Bromptonaut and gb, that most of
>> these deaths and injuries are caused by imprudent riding on the part of the cyclists.
>> But that's in towns.
If I've given that impression then it's certainly not what I think. I suspect 50/50 but with a lot of grey stuff in the middle. This one on your old stomping ground was bad enough to get the driver prosecuted.
tinyurl.com/7eeh457 (links to DM). Private Eye reports the same driver as being involved in a subsequent accident where a pedestrian died.
I'm fairly sure there's another case where driver was over the DD limit from previous night.
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>> If I've given that impression then it's certainly not what I think.
Goodness, sorry Bromptonaut. Overstatement on my part. 50/50 it is then.
The South Shields case with a link struck me very forcibly: the cyclist, quite young it seems, was so close in front of the lorry at a roundabout that the driver couldn't see him at all. And one does see cyclists in London doing quite silly things all the time (including making themselves invisible at night). But I agree, some drivers in all vehicle categories are less than careful.
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Bromptonaut will correct me if I have got him wrong again, but he seems to agree with me that the expensive, ugly trashing of the London road system by the malevolent jerk Ken Livingstone has made the roads if anything more dangerous for cyclists by restricting road space and quite often harming visibility. The cycle lanes in the West End are little used, some hardly at all. It's perfectly clear that the real reason for spending all those millions was to obstruct motor vehicles and really had nothing to do with making life easier and safer for cyclists, pedestrians and the countless millions of elderly and disabled daily London commuters. And of course the evil red-faced twerp's damn articulated buses are just wonderful for cyclists. As are the built-out bus stops in the Caledonian Road and elsewhere which force them and any cars into the opposite carriageway whenever a bus stops.
Livingstone hasn't been properly criticized for these megalomaniac measures. And unfortunately his fall from power, which will of course be permanent, hasn't led to anything being done to restore the status quo ante. Perhaps there's no money left.
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Too late to edit.
Denis Putz was the drunk who was also on a mobile. His victim was yet another young woman, Catriona Patel tinyurl.com/7bwpb59 (DM again)
Note particularly 'Putz, of Barnet, North London, was previously jailed for six months in 1995 for reckless driving and again in 2003 for 16 instances of driving an HGV while disqualified.
Cycling community regard Putz' employer as having 'previous' for taking on bad drivers
EDIT driver's name was P_U_T_Z and is caught by swearfilter - does it mena something naughty in American? IAE could the mods allow it by exception in this post?
does it mena something naughty in American? Dunno !
Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 12 Jan 12 at 13:05
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>> Of course we have all noticed that tippers expect people to keep out of their
>> way and drive accordingly. But what they don't give a thing about is people's shiny
>> coachwork. Not many would drive over a cyclist and not really care. After all that
>> would cause delays and trouble with the authorities. And even quite thuggish people tend to
>> stop short of actual murder or manslaughter. We don't need to exaggerate.
I'm not suggesting all skip lorry drivers secretly indulge in 'Death Race 2000' tactics...just that IF you are 'thuggish' (your words), you'll also be inconsiderate, pushy, aggressive, etc....and that's when accidents can and do happen....then when you combine some cyclists impatience and disregard for traffic laws...there's bound to be a problem.
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>> you'll also be inconsiderate, pushy, aggressive, etc....
Heh heh... that's what 'thuggish' means behind the wheel.
I didn't mean to suggest you were exaggerating Westpig. I just said we didn't need to exaggerate.
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>>>> Tipper drivers...remember the film Hell Drivers?<<
I was determined not to reply to this remark this morning when I read it, but it has to be said!
With respect to both you and GB, Hell Drivers is a film, fiction and from 1957.
I used to know a lot of outfits such as you mention Westpig, they were rife in the Fen, in fact my driving career started working for one of them.
BUT, things have changed a hell of a lot since then.
Even the most irresponsible driver is fully aware that he can go out to work in the morning and be arrested for causing death by dangerous driving an hour later. Facing a prison sentence is great for people to moderate their mindset to the way they drive.
I really don't think this problem can be solved by blaming any one sector of road users, and I was hoping for some constructive suggestions from GB based upon his vast experience of delivering in London.
Pat
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Off the subject slightly,we have had a new shopping center build and a new bus station next to it.The busstation is very nice clean and efficient.The problem is now with numerous pedestrians walking to the shops there have been at least 5 people killed and loads of near misses.Pedestrians walking through red lights and busses going to quick for the amount of people walking about.
The planners never thought of this and now changes are having to be made.Putting signs on lorries might help but it still feels like a bodge to me.I hope Iam wrong.
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...Ignore the drugs stuff...
Driver takes his amphet and dope with him to work, and traces of amphet in his system.
Declared fit to drive, so 'ignore the drugs stuff'.
I wonder if the dead bloke's family agree?
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>> I wonder if the dead bloke's family agree?
I don't suppose for a minute the dead bloke's family agree. My point was that this was a representative bike/tipper fatality. What can riders and drivers learn from it?
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I was hoping for some constructive suggestions from GB
Look you can't wave a magic wand and change the driving habits of a lifetime.
As i tried to say in my post, rigid tipper, skip and as Z rightly mentioned cement mixer trucks can perform as well and can be thrown about as much as the average car or van.
The London driver mindset whether it be on cycle, car, taxi, van, bus or on 8 truck wheels is get out of my way, i'm coming throught and some cases i'll force it if i have to, its always been cut and thrust.
A bloke whizzing round in his transit will be no better than the bloke whizzing round in his tipper.
But the results for the most vulnerable are a world apart in the event of accident.
Lets get one thing straight, many cyclists are only alive because most drivers of big commercials are more competent than they are ever credited for.
And there are many alive who leapt out of the way when an incompetent driver of a big vehicle didn't spot them and would have killed them had they not taken action.
There are good cyclists/bikers, and there are suicidal imbeciles of mimse ride and hell for leather variety.
A truck of the type we are talking about has no side guards, has high bumpers and anti spray suppresion of minimal requirements.
These types of vehicles have to go off road so their bodywork around the wheels has to be much higher, get caught be one of these motors and theres a good chance ofending your days underneath.
Compare with full time on road vehicles with spray suppresion wings/flaps, and side rails, you have a job to check the tyre tread depths on some of them when you do your daily checks, plus the bodywork often comes down to the wheels.
A cyclist caught by a standard road truck or bus has a far better chance of being knocked of but pushed away from the wheels.
Our industry keeps harping on about professionalism, well lets see some professionals set their mirrors correctly to scan the whole of the front and nearside of the truck, from 2 to three yards in front via the front down mirror, the nearside cab area and front wheel( two if twin steer 8 wheeler) scanned by the NS down mirror, the section from behind cab to rear wheels and outwards by the small wide angle mirror and the main NS mirror covering the whole of the NS to infinity.
Some drivers do not kow how to set their mirrors properly and set the wide angle mirror too high, why i cannot fathom.
Then lets see some of our people clean their mirrors and the windows, and then use the damned things.
I haven't really touched on bodywork yet.
A truck or bus body will start at knee/thigh or waist height these days, if not the bodywork itself then the side rails will be down to knee height.
Good chance of being knocked flying still but should end up going away, even a cyclist bouncing back from a kerb would stand a good chance of being knocked away again.
Tipper, concrete mixer, skip trucks all start at shoulder height, little in the way of side bodywork for obvious reasons, get hit by one of these and its a hit to the head or shoulders which will knock the cyclist to the kerb but when he bounces back its straight under the wheels cos there's nothing to stop it happening..and there really isn't a practical solution to this.
These are hard working industrial vehicles, just as all trucks are but these don't get prettied up to look nice, if they come back with dents and scratches and broken lights and different car paints etched an all contact points nobody bats an eyelid, come back with you shiny road truck looking like that every day and you'll be investigated.
I don't think you can stop a London full time driver from dashing about whatever they drive, its a way of life, and if you weren't reasonably assertive you'd never get anything done.
Maybe its time for some horrendous posters for cyclists benefit, pictures taken from the scenes of carnage when cyclists have been crushed by trucks, only with the bereaved ones permission obviously.
This is not something to ponce about with, cyclists need to be shown shockingly what happens to them if they get mangled in a trucks wheels.
Hows about some set up crash scenes if real blood is too shocking (rather be shocked than mangled), like the more effective drink drive campaigns.
One other point though, how many of these cycle accidents happen in the hours of darkness?
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Thanks GB for a balanced and thoughtful post, I might respond in more detail tomorrow but am bed bound right now!!
On a factual issue though light/dark doesn't seem to be a factor. Most of the accidents in Olaf's spreadsheet are in daytime.
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Thanks for the link Henry and seasidersrock, we have to watch the RM ones round here too in the early hours;)
Pat
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I spent aprox 25 years driving in and around Central London, started on two wheels moved onto vans and cars.
I have personally witnessed the aftermath, Tipper in Hounslow, left turn and cyclist underneath, even with screens up you got the gist of how bad it was. The Fire Brigade were using shovels.
The other ones to avoid were bright Red and had Royal Mail on the side and surprised nobody has mentioned the push bike (kamikazi) messenger.
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>>Look you can't wave a magic wand and change the driving habits of a lifetime<<<
I'm not naive enough to think I can do BUT that will never, ever stop me trying to.
Some very good points GB, pity it was like pulling teeth getting them:)
It seems that it may well be the vehicle design of tippers etc that could be a contributory factor, and maybe not quite so related to driving style.
Pat
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It would seem to me, that the safest place for a bicycle or motorcycle (unless the rider pulls away sharpish) is behind an HGV/bus...so that you're never going to be in any blind spot......(unless the larger vehicle is reversing of course)...
...yet a lot of inner city road layouts have motor vehicles stop at red lights behind cyclists, who are allowed to filter to the front?
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>> It would seem to me, that the safest place for a bicycle or motorcycle (unless
>> the rider pulls away sharpish) is behind an HGV/bus.
Certainly true that it's often safer to ride in the traffic and wait in the queue than to try and squeeze past. But that doesn't preventthe accdent where the HGV/bus is passing the cyclist.
>> ...yet a lot of inner city road layouts have motor vehicles stop at red lights
>> behind cyclists, who are allowed to filter to the front?
The idea is to put the cyclist where he can be seen. The idea is to reduce risk from drivers, whose attention is focussed directly ahead turning across the cyclists bows or crushing the unseen cyclist against the kerb. To that extent they work well. A cyclist actually accelerates pretty rapidly so once at the front there's less conflict than you might think - certainly so in Inner London.
The danger with these is that until recently the law required a filter access over the first (motor vehicle) stop line. This is almost always on the nearside encouraging exactly the sort of dangerous filtring past HGV's that this thread discusses. Much better in some places to go up the offside.
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With this thread in mind I thought I would count the number of cyclists not using lights/wearing dark clothing on the way home last night through London.
I would estimate that about 50% had no effective lights and dark clothing. Madness.
On the news this morning they were saying that TfL want to alter the lights at the Bow Flyover, a black-spot for cyclist accidents. The problem there is traffic turning left onto cyclists. They are going to give cyclists their own phase of the lights, which would turn red when the light for traffic was green, enabling traffic to turn left without hitting cyclists. Hands up how many people think the problem will continue because cyclists will ignore their red light?
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>>....this morning they were saying that TfL want to alter the lights at the Bow Flyover
A folow up from the BBC link I posted above.
There is some action being taken elsewhere
Oxford police fine 162 cyclists riding without lights
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-15569478
An interesting approach.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5m_1aUrERs.
Interesting small clip a Ambulance using a cycle path over the Erasmus Bridge.Rotterdam.
Emergency call.
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What we need is to make cyclists accountable for THEIR actions. It's not always the fault of of the lorry driver, though there is proof above about dirty mirrors/windows or cab/lorry construction being a problem.
So make cyclists pay a form of road tax and have cycle insurance. Well I hear you say, how is this policed. You can't fit number plates to bikes. My solution is that you are given a HiViz vest and ruck sack cover with a serial number stamped on it in large black figures.And unless you cycle with either on all the time, you will be taken off the road by law if need be. Killing two birds with one stone. Safety, hiviz, and accountability, owner number.
Making some of these morons accountable for their actions might make them cycle more safely and considerately.
Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Thu 12 Jan 12 at 17:55
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Was giving this some thought today, i have a small suggestion that would help trucks avoid accidents at junctions particularly, and i doubt you'll get anywhere with this but i believe its worth a try....many drivers won't agree with me on this but this is my honest opinion.
Make the compulsory use of seat belts in trucks optional instead, to allow a driver to be able to move freely to look around the mirrors as and when needed.
I know we've had these discussions before but i'll re-iterate my standpoint.
The mirror designs on some trucks are terrible, not so much the nearside as the field of vision isn't so much of a problem there, but often the same mirror design is fitted to the drivers side and in some cases they are astonishingly bad.
When i have to drive one particular Swedish make i refuse to wear the seatbelt, the oversized mirror casing housing two is set far too high on the door, and is the size of a small wardrobe door, it takes a tremendous amount of field of vision away from the driver, far more than is needed.
The offside does not need or warrant the same mirrors as the nearside, it's probably ease of manufacture that dictates this, Leyland used to fit smaller mirrors on the offside on the Roadtrain/Constructor models, very few others come to mind that do this, and those that recently did have started to fill in the spaces with more mirrors and casings.
W124 MB cars indeed have differing mirrors on the two sides.
One memorable time i was approaching a junction where i had to give way, i checked all the time on appraoch and just as i was about to pull onto the junction, can't remember if it was a roundabout or a main or road junction but thats unimportant here, all of a sudden a Transit van was there and i hadn't seen it at all, i stopped ok but it could have been a nasty bump.
As i and the van approached the junction the van was hidden behind the mirror the whole time as we closed, now i take stuff like this pretty seriously and it disturbed me that i could miss such a vehicle.
Compared to a tranny van a cycle or motorcycle would be almost invisible.
From that day onwards i never used a seatbelt in one of those trucks.
If a police officer pulled me for no belt i would explain the situation and the reasons why and invite the officer to see for themselves, if i get nicked so be it, i'd rather pay the fine than cause an accident.
The nearside view wouldn't be quite so affected by this but any movement is helpful to gain an extra sweep of a possible blindspot.
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With all the technology on new cars is there anything that could be adapted for lorries? I am talking about the blind spot mirrors, the lane assist, the sensors etc?
Possible to fit something on the side that senses movement passing at a speed higher than the lorry is doing?
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GB,
Mrs B's cousin, self employed HGV driver* based Worcester way, says exactly the same about seat belts.
Also reckons that even in accidents trucks don't 'stop dead' like cars do and that belt is less of a benefit.
*If you don't know him I bet Pat does (he worked Felixstowe for years)!!
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>> Also reckons that even in accidents trucks don't 'stop dead' like cars do and that
>> belt is less of a benefit.
I imagine there are accidents where a seatbelt would save a truck driver, but i'm of the opinion that if the truck stops so quickly that the seat belt is needed then dead stop is probably precisely that.
The weight of the load indeed the empty weight of the truck is quite sufficient to render the cab down to a flat pack.
Whats your opinion on making errant cyclists aware of their mortality Brompton?, you're a regular London cyclist you probably see more of this in action than any of us.
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>> Whats your opinion on making errant cyclists aware of their mortality Brompton?, you're a regular
>> London cyclist you probably see more of this in action than any of us.
Errant and mortality don't co-incide. I genuinely see few instances where drivers have to take emergency action.
The red light runners get away with it because most are taking advantage of lights set for motor vehicles. Going kerbside on red (left in UK sense) is allowed for motors in US. Nobody gets hurt when they use the over long red all ways thing either. Scattering pedestrians however is far to common and unforgivable.
Those who do meet their mortality seem from my perspective and from Olaf's data to be the meek rather than the errant. The roll call of the dead is disproportionately young, female and (possibly) foreign.
Riding assertively looks risky but actually puts us where we can be seen and allows you guys time to react. If you have to ease and steer round us it's not really a problem is it?
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>> Riding assertively looks risky but actually puts us where we can be seen and allows
>> you guys time to react. If you have to ease and steer round us it's
>> not really a problem is it?
>>
The only ones who have really caused me a quick sweat are the ones who come down a side road and without slowing or looking enter the main road i'm already on almost under my front bumper, or try to get between the truck and trailer which do not part.*
Or come along the pavement from any direction and suddenly drop on the road again without looking.
They usually did so when i was loaded which would be the most dangerous for them as you can't readily swerve something like a loaded transporter, you can swerve an empty one (unless wet when a proper oversteer jack knife is a serious possibility) but they rattle and clank identical to an underground train when empty and the noise seems to divert the cyclist, ironic really.
* I've had pedestrians in cities walk across the decks 'tween truck and trailer just as i was about to move off, one drunk twerp managed to fall over the chassis and hurt himself ISTR that was at Lords or close by, luckily i saw him in the mirrors before he wrapped himself around the girders....Darwinism in action.
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>> Darwinism in action.
I'm afraid that's the only conclusion for some.
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>>So make cyclists pay a form of road tax
Cyclists pay the same 'road tax' as all other low emission vehicles, my BIL's diesel Volvo for example.
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>> So make cyclists pay a form of road tax and have cycle insurance. Well I
>> hear you say, how is this policed. You can't fit number plates to bikes. My
>> solution is that you are given a HiViz vest and ruck sack cover with a
>> serial number stamped on it in large black figures
Road tax fails for the reason already pointed out - cyclists are zero emission vehicles. Hi-Viz/Rucksack covers? So if I want to grab a Boris bike in London I can't without my hi-viz? Same if I want to hire an MTB on my hols.
Bikes have massive health benefits. Anything that makes it more difficult to just jump on the thing means people take the car instead.
And the other straw man is insurance. Most of us have it. The committed get it with their membership of CTC/BC etc. But it's probably there anyway as part of household insurance.
But then do you have any evidence that there's a serious problem with cyclists unable to compensate the maimed?
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Pat asked upthread if side impact bars on skip/tip vehicles would help. Difficult to be certain without analysis of specific accidents but I suspect not.
First of all those on artics are presumably meant to mitigate vehicle under runs. Something to act ‘cow catcher’ fashion with a person would need to be designed for that job. Close enough to road surface and angled to deflect a prone body without risking a pick up/drag.
Close to road is the bit that’s problematic – these things need to go over ramps & unmettalled surfaces to load unload.
Other thing is that they’re mitigating consequence. We need prevention.
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>> On the news this morning they were saying that TfL want to alter the lights
>> at the Bow Flyover, a black-spot for cyclist accidents. The problem there is traffic turning
>> left onto cyclists. They are going to give cyclists their own phase of the lights,
>> which would turn red when the light for traffic was green, enabling traffic to turn
>> left without hitting cyclists. Hands up how many people think the problem will continue because
>> cyclists will ignore their red light?
The Bow flyover has particular resonance because it’s on one of BoJo’s Cycle Superhighways. TfL were warned that it was dangerous and that the route needed to go further, possibly over the flyover.
What’s proposed is not quite as suggested by Boxterboy. The lights will include an cycles only green allowing bikes to get onto the roundabout first putting them where they’re in sight. There's no 'red for cyclists' phase to be ignored. Holding bikes at red while motor vehicles pass increases the nearside crush risk – unless they’re on a segregated track. The better solution might be to extend the cycle route over the flyover but I doubt it’s wide enough.
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...The better solution might be to extend the cycle route over the flyover but I doubt it’s wide enough...
Wouldn't it be a bit of a pull up the flyover, particularly on a heavy Boris bike?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1HrbzPemTc
Cyclist and Lorry the woman wasn't seriously injured lucky.
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>> The better solution might be to extend the cycle route over the flyover but I
>> doubt it’s wide enough.
>>
That's TfL's alternative suggestion to introducing the cycle phase to the lights. But apparently a cycle lane on the fly-over would reduce the road from 2 lanes to 1, with resultant congestion. And it would be a bit of a puff for the cyclists!
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Why introduce a cyclist phase on any traffic light junction. They ignore them anyway. The worst one's are the "sail through pedestrian crossing on red I'm not stopping for no-one" types who make my blood boil. It's always the pedestrian who has to stop to let the idiotic few through. At least at grown up signals, they only have themselves to blame if they break the rules and end up wrapped around the rear wheels of a tipper. The number of near misses I've witnessed with pedestrians is rediculous.
And yes if they had serial numbers slapped over them I could hopefully report them.As for the Boris bikes, fit them with number plates or make it compulsory for you to carry your hiviz vest with you. It really takes up soooo much space in a bag doesn't it.
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I'm sorry X but if you must make rules they've got to be effective. Even if the rider always wears the gilet/cover and its his own and you read the number right the police are not going to act - evidence won't stack up.
OTOH if police blitz crossings where the scatterings happen (like Met & City do from time to time with light jumpers) we might get somewhere.
Gave up even creeping through reds after I misjudged it and nearly clobbered an eminent law professor from Birkbeck. She moves in same academic circles as my senior colleagues; undoubtedly clocked and placed me.
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Hullo folks! In case the user name doesn't give you a clue, I'm Pats better half.
She asked me to have a read of this thread as part of her research into the problem of cyclists being killed by HGV's in London.
My job frequently involves running an artic into central London, sometimes several times a week. This, combined with a backround of working full time as a courier for several years on bikes and in vans, gives me some knowledge of what goes on and who's fault it might be.
Its fascinating to read about something I've experienced from a variety of new view points. But it all seems to boil down to three basic problems.
1. Some junctions/road layouts need modifying to make them safer for all road users.
2. A little education of cyclists goes a long way to preventing them from putting themselves in harms way.
3. A little education of lorry drivers in the maintenance of their all round vision, by lining mirrors up better and keeping them and the windows clean would eliminate some of the problem.
Many of the fatalities seem to involve young women and lorries turning left. This has been mentioned before in other studies, and appears to be a combination of the road layout and the absence of a Y chromosome. Many cycle lanes have a forward stop box at junctions for the pedal pushers, often occupied by ignorant traffic meaning cyclists can't easily get into a safe spot ahead of vehicles. Male cyclists tend to be a little more assertive and just move further ahead, if they stop at all. Females seem to err more on the side of caution and hesitate alongside the traffic, just in the wrong place for HGV drivers to be able to see them. A little education on both sides could go a long way, keeping vehicles out of the advanced stop box and getting cyclists either well ahead or behind waiting traffic should improve everyones chances.
Studies have also shown that many road users, cyclists included, have no idea how little you can see from the cab of a lorry at times. The TfL video showing a group of cyclists, invisible from the driving seat of an artic is quite an eye opener. We shamelessly copied this at last years PDA training day, surprising many non HGV drivers. The simple fact is, although we now have more mirrors than Imelda Marcos's shoe cupboard, they cover only a limited area and the driver has only one pair of eyes with which to look in them all. Yet again, prevention is better than cure, and knowing where the wrong place is so that cyclists can avoid being there would surely save a few lives. Keeping windows and mirrors clean can only be done by drivers though.
Mention has been made of the number of construction related vehicles involved in cycle collisions, and that their being paid by the load might contribute to this. As I'm paid on drops and mileage myself, I don't think it is. Certain types of drivers seem to gravitate towards certain types of work, and tipper work seems to attract those with a more, shall we say, forward going attitude. The construction industry as a whole has taken great strides in the last few years in improving its safety record, and that includes the transport side of the business.
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Excellent thoughtful post Mr PDA...we'd better say that or your Mrs will beat the living...:-)
Only joking, that really was a very good all round summary.
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Welcome, and thank you for your viewpoint.
Its always good to see things from the view of an expert, and having driven a baby truck (7.5tonner) I have a very faint idea of what you are up against in the real big stuff.
Anyway, I hope this isn't going to be your only posting here, I'm sure we all would love to hear more from the man who keeps Pat under control..... (love ya really Pat!) ;-)
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Keep Pat under control? Surely some mistake :)
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>> Keep Pat under control? Surely some mistake :)
Ever tried 'Do as I say or the mog gets it!' Mr Pat? That might work.
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A faster way of my bed being moved to the shed and my dinner to the mog I cannot imagine!
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Good post Mr PDA.
I still think though that you create your own luck in life...and this also applies to road use ... and that some cyclists need to 'up their game' to realise actually how vulnerable they are.
It's the same principle as motorcyclists. If you've got any sense you constantly ride defensively, even if you're in the right. Some don't bother through arrogance or ignorance...and sometimes pay the consequences.
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>..you create your own luck in life...and this also applies to road use ...<
Very true. I've survived a great many two wheeled miles on the assumption that all others are idiots until otherwise proven.
The tricky bit is how to get the message over without using commercial vehicles to prove Darwins theory of evolution.
A prime example is the proposals for the Bow roundabout. Running the cycle lane over the flyover will simply present bicycle users with two choices. Huff and puff their way up, over and down the other side, or take their chances dodging cars on the comparitively level roundabout. Human nature being what it is, which option is going to prove most popular?
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Good post MR PDA, but I feel one sweeping statement:
The construction industry as a whole has taken great strides in the last few years in improving its safety record, and that includes the transport side of the business.
is a tad rosy speccy.
On Monday I can get in my car and I know i will come across a construction vehicle being driven in a highly aggressive and intimating manner.
There is also much in what GB wrote about the open sides and wheels of a construction vehicle, a brush with them inevitably leads to wheel entanglement, something not seen in other HGV type vehicles.
Anyway - Welcome
Pat said you have a fat a*** in leathers by the way.,
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>On Monday I can get in my car and I know i will come across a construction vehicle being driven in a highly aggressive and intimating manner. <
Seek and ye shall find....
As most drivers in London behave in an agressive and intimidating manner, singling out someone in a large vehicle won't be particularly difficult.
I never said bad driving had been eliminated, just that things were improved over days gone by.
The open sides and wheel areas on conctruction vehicles are neccessary for them to do their work gettiing in and out of muddy holes in the ground. But cyclists are being hit by buses and cars too, which is why the consensus seems to be that education rather than modification is the way forward.
As big as my a**s may be in leathers or out, its still Pats favourite.
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I sometimes feel I must live in a parallel universe to some others. All these unnecessary horn tooters in one thread and now all this Metropolitan angst.
I drive, walk and indeed cycle in central London most weeks and have done for decades. I find no real problem in any of these activities and can't recall coming into particular conflict with other road users no matter what their chosen method of propulsion. It is a busy, very busy but ultimately shared space. All have rights to use it and when that is taken into account it by and large works. In truth, conflict only arises when more than one party chooses to conflict and those who seek it whether deliberately or subliminally will find it if they want to. Those who don't generally won't.
Chill people, there's room for everyone if you do.
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"But cyclists are being hit by buses and cars too, which is why the consensus seems to be that education rather than modification is the way forward."
Yes but more of them DIE under construction vehicle wheels.
I see you are just as blindly defensive of ALL truckers under any circumstances as your missus.
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>>under any circumstances as your missus. <<
Totally unfair comment if you go back and read my opening post in this thread and the sort of thing that always makes me wonder why I bother.
Unless of course you're just trying to cause a domestic Z?
We don't do domestics, life's far too short:)
Pat
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In this case Pat, your old man is more of a trucker zealot than you are!
We just need to train him up a bit, after all we have done a great job with you.
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Before this discussion continues I need to point out something.
For years we both managed to be employed by the same firm as lorry drivers while husband and wife. We also managed to be treated by everyone as individuals. Disagreements and opinions of one didn't spill over into another. That was in some way due to the way we both behaved at work, but more credit was due to the management who were delighted that this approach worked flawlessly for years and still does.
Ian has the Performance Bike forums, I have car4play and that's why we don't usually mix the two.
I asked him to comment on this post, but he would happily become more involved after reading the forum.
I'l make it clear now that if it isn't on the basis we're used to then it won't happen
Last edited by: pda on Sun 15 Jan 12 at 11:14
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>> Totally unfair comment if you go back and read my opening post in this thread
>> and the sort of thing that always makes me wonder why I bother.
Don't take it so seriously. You asked for, and you got, a shed load of (mostly) unbiased ideas and thoughts. Along the way you know you can expect, and will get, a little affectionate teasing.
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Only found Mr Pda's post yesterday eve and have not had time to digest fully. The three key points are certainly spot on though. Some roads (Kings Cross area, Bow &possibly Southamptonh Row/Russell Sq are examples) need looking at. I need to respond to that and to Westpig's point about realising our own vulnerability but am now off to sort out Bromp j's phone - his old one got chewed by a dog!!
Humph's point is also well made - most of us get around for years without trouble. And although cyclist numbers in London are now 2.5 times what thet were when I started in 1999 the casualties are pretty stable.
On the numbers there'sno doubt HGV deaths are disproporionately large that most are tip/skip vehicles. I don't know enough about the relative numbers of different types of HGV in London to be sure of the significance.
FWIW the three accidents I've seen the aftermath of, on a fatal, have involved articulated tractor/trailer vehicles in Holborn. The fatal was almost certainly becuase the truck had to swing right clear a left turn.
There was a fatal with a bus at the same junction. A student, Dorothy Elder, was hit unseen outside Central St MArtins. The driver was prosecuted but acquited.
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Zero,
This is a serious thread on a subject that closely affects some of us. Please be careful about using it as a tease...
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Thanks for confirming my thoughts Bromptonaut.
All the driver observation in the world doesn't help when the road layout places cyclists in the wrong place, and the cyclists aren't aware of the risk they face.
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I found this vid. interesting.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LP94r7AF0w&feature=related
The Morrisons truck is in the right hand lane, indicating it wants to turn left but is caught up in traffic. Would you, as a cyclist, sit behind it and wait or cycle down the empty left hand lane?
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I was faced with one of these scenarios today, coming inside a large truck on a roundabout him in lane 1, me in lane 2 on the bike (brutish thing no pedals) I hung back, I could see his eyes in his mirror, valour/discretion etc.
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I take it you mean the rider with the camera, not the cyclist who passes weaving around?
I'd have waited but it's possible he was (a) aware of the traffic ahead and (b) knows the route well.
Gaz is a fairly well known 'headcam' user/you tube poster and is as happy cricising cyclists as drivers.
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Been away for weekend so just catching up - excellent post by Mr PDA but one astonishingly serious error of judgement -
"I'm Pats better half"
Don't know how you can dare to say that! Is your Sunday dinner in the dog??
Couple of minor points.
When driving car transporter and trailer (<7.5 tons) , I find that tipper/construction trucks are usually less polite than other LGV drivers -
a)they seem to have a more aggressive driving style especially in urban areas where they obviously know the route/roads and are less forgiving of those of us less familiar - ie, rarely let you change lanes in front of them if you have chosen the wrong lane (arrows/signs are often very late or covered by preceding traffic)
b) When they overtake you and you give them a "flash" as safe to pull in, they rarely respond and if you overtake them (very rare!) they don't give you the "safe to pull in" flash.
c) Cyclists - Bromptonauts point is a good one - they often don't realise that you you have swing out a bit wide to turn left and sneak up on the inside to "undertake"
d) In London, courier motorbikists are often the worst problem because they attack you from all sides! And often at high speed so you have less time to react.
Thought provoking post though Mr PDA - hope we hear more from you!
Phil
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www.simonmason.karoo.net/
I have known Simon whilst working on the Jetties at Saltend.He is a keen cyclist and wears
video sun glasses whilst cycling.Have a look at his website.
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>> The Morrisons truck is in the right hand lane, indicating it wants to turn left
>> but is caught up in traffic. Would you, as a cyclist, sit behind it and
>> wait or cycle down the empty left hand lane?
>>
I would have gone through on the inside at the same point as the video maker for two reasons.
The truck was prevented from making any attempt to turn left until the traffic moved in front some distance, so plenty of time to nip through.
Secondly and more importantly the truck driver's indicating and road positioning is perfect for approaching the turn so i'd have faith in his observance and skill too, i might have tried to straddle the left lane just a fraction more than he did but he may know from experience that the turn is so tight once round the corner that he doesn't have the room for a semi blocking move.
Lane blocking move is not to be an awkward sod its to make those who fail to register what the left turn indicators mean and shove a car up inside the truck, soon followed by several more, result traffic jammed and truck unable to turn left till someone with an ounce of sense and eyes open comes along.
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>> I would have gone through on the inside at the same point as the video
>> maker for two reasons.
Looking again last night it's not actually that marginal a move. As well as the rider knowing his route he has an escape. If goes t*ts up then as well as braking he can go up the kerb.
Railings at junctions are another bit of the 'your're squashed & dead'' equation.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDAYkdlKEGI&feature=related
There is no answer to this sort of cycling other than Darwin will take care of in due time.
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>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDAYkdlKEGI&feature=related
>>
>> There is no answer to this sort of cycling other than Darwin will take care
>> of in due time.
>>
What gets me, is that @ 36seconds another bike goes through the gap!
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Also why is this bloke cycling so fast? Slow down a bit its not a race.
More haste less speed.
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There's a small proportion of London cyclists, one in 30 or so, who ride racers and go like the wind.
Any vigorous cyclist can beat the motor traffic when it's at all congested, but some of these people are just faster over almost any distance. They can often be clocked at 25 or 30 which is more than cars can most of the time.
The bikes don't look comfortable and the whole enterprise looks incredibly fraught and hard work. But Chapeau, knowImean? I sometimes almost wish I was made of spring steel and crazed aggression like that.
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Messenger and they have their own rules.
Difficult to judge how close it actually was - the gap looks much wider at the end than when bus and pickup stop with horns going etc.
He was OK in the bus lane and arguably in going offside of the queue. Misjudged the gap between the bus and the 4*4 and no taking account of fact that both are moving which would be the show stopper for me.
But then again he's away before the camera stops.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 16 Jan 12 at 20:43
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A finl thought:
The ‘make them aware of their vulnerability’ theme bothers me slightly. That testosterone driven nut nearly squashed in the You Tube link knew but didn’t care. Nothing will change that.
In some of fatalities though it seems likely they were aware of their vulnerability but lacked the confidence to manage it.
Sure, there’s an education issue about squeezing up the nearside of trucks and their need to swing one way to turn the other. But I’m convinced that some of these riders were overtaken and forgotten – Pat’s count them into the blindside and count them out again technique scores here but not everyone uses it.
Intuition was says keep out of the way of the motorised traffic. But that doesn’t work. You’ve got to stand out and that means being a good metre and a half out from the kerb. There’s nothing aggressive or foolhardy about that.
Both parties need to take extra care at junctions with the ‘protection’ of railings. While stopping errant pedestrians they cut the final escape route and spring the trap shut on the cyclist who’s bad luck or foolishness has trapped them nearside.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-16726409
An example of one who has passed the driving test :-(
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>> You’ve got to stand out and that means being a good metre and a
>> half out from the kerb. There’s nothing aggressive or foolhardy about that.
>>
What, outside the cycle lane? Most cycle lanes are only a metre or so wide, and one thing that annoys drivers is cyclists outside their lane as this tends to slow traffic unnecessarily.
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>> What, outside the cycle lane? Most cycle lanes are only a metre or so wide,
>> and one thing that annoys drivers is cyclists outside their lane as this tends to
>> slow traffic unnecessarily.
Yes outside the cycle lane. If the lane is only a metre wide then it's too narrow to be safe and may not even comply with DfT standards.
If riding safely holds the cars up then tough - it's only for a short distance.
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In fact there are a lot of places where the cycle lane is only half a metre wide if that, along a lot of Ladbroke Grove for example where I used to live. It's a mere formality.
If it means anything, it means cyclists should try not to get in the way and vehicles should try not to run over them. But basically it's useless and misleading.
The London government which painted these things on the road also widened pavements everywhere and built the corners out at intersections. As well as extending bus lanes and acquiring articulated buses to take up even more room and insult London, the home of the perfectly good double-decker.
I don't just call Ken Livingstone malevolent because he was anti-car. I call him malevolent because he spent countless millions of our money screwing up the London road system because he was anti-car. Carphound.
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>> If riding safely holds the cars up then tough - it's only for a short
>> distance.
>>
I can't possibly imagine why there's conflict on our roads..with an attitude like that.
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>> I can't possibly imagine why there's conflict on our roads..with an attitude like that.
>>
The wording was a response to Boxterboy's comment about being held up unnecessarily.
The alternative to being assertive is that cars and trucks endanger lives by passing too close to cyclists herded into the gutter by carp road design.
As I've said upthread vulnerability has to be managed. Keeping out of the way and touching your forelock to the bigger road users is fatal.
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PS
Congrats to WP on the wee girl's arrival.
Not long ago I was walking round and round the house with mine over a shoulder to ease her colic. Right now she's just reversing the Xantia into the drive after her shift at the vacation job.
They grow up B quickly.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 25 Jan 12 at 23:28
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>>(1) What do you see as the main cause of the problem and (2) what would you do to solve it?
(1) The cyclists.
(2) Enforcement, zero tolerance and fines that hurt.
Yesterday morning as I crossed a pedestrian crossing with the light on green for me, a girl on a bike cycled into me. She was just wobbling forward slowly, waiting for the lights to change, watching the traffic.
I seized her basket and stopped the bike before it hit me and she was hugely apologetic. In retrospect I should have said "you have just been in an accident with a pedestrian, we are required to call the police."
Most mornings on that junction I risk my body under the wheels of a bike that is ignoring the traffic lights.
I write as a (occasional) Boris-Biker who doesn't go through red lights or cycle on pavements/up one-way streets the wrong way. You don't have to endanger pedestrians.
Secondly I would have a "Do you realise you are invisible?" advertising campaign. With pictures of cyclists without lights, or wearing only a dark suit. Presumably they don't realise they are invisible - or don't care. With Boris Bikes that have 24/7 lights (and they're good lights) those cyclists without them really show up (or rather, don't).
That I write as a car driver.
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Thaqnks for the input MM.
We're not having a lot of success with TFL, they don't seem to want unbiased input at all.
I suspect they have their own agenda
The Times are planning a campaign so they told me yesterday and made note of many comments I made gathered from this thread.....but then asked me for all of my research!
I may not read the Times, but I'm not daft:)
Pat
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Tonight's Standard reports that Transport Minister Theresa Villiers is nursing a broken collar bone after being knocked off her bike riding to work.
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Just driven from the depths of Fulham, Now I am a London Driver born and bred with the cut and thrust abilities such people develop. The sheer number of cyclists, and the unpredictability of where they come from and what they do has increased exponentially. Mix that with bikers, with bikes far to big for the slicing ability required in ttraffic, and you have a recipe for disasters.
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Course, it could just be that your brain has slowed down a bit, y'know, "use it or lose it" sort of thing...
Try "Countdown" or something, that's what old people do to keep themselves a bit sharp isn't it?
:-))
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The fact that I made it through the heaving mass in double quick time without smearing cyclist up the pristine Japanese paintwork proves I still have "it".
Something you bumpkins never had.
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Maybe so, or indeed maybe they know to give old duffers in cheap Jap cars a wider berth...
:-)
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maybe they know to give old duffers in cheap Jap cars
>> a wider berth...
Yup, a "come near me and you are strawberry jam" aura is required.
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>> The sheer number of cyclists,
Yea!!! we have critical mass!!
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>> >> The sheer number of cyclists,
>>
>> Yea!!! we have critical mass!!
Critical list more like. Saw some really stupid moves. Overtaking two abreast on the wrong side of a keep left bollard into the face of oncoming traffic on Putney bridge for example.
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>> Overtaking two abreast on the wrong
>> side of a keep left bollard into the face of oncoming traffic on Putney bridge
>> for example.
>>
For goodness sake!
I though you knew that the rules of the road don't apply to pedal cycles!
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>>Just driven from the depths of Fulham, Now I am a London Driver born and bred with the cut and thrust abilities such people develop. >>
A pity these "cut and thrust abilities" diminish with age.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 26 Jan 12 at 20:45
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The more this thread has gone on, the more entrenched my views.
The article from the Times that pda has just posted has tipped me over the fence...
... I think the problem is that the most vulnerable users of the road are sometimes the most foolish. When you ride a motorcycle in a city you have to be very, very wary and ride defensively, even if you have the right of way...yet you see some flying about and think to yourself 'well there's the next donor'.
Same with cycling.
If an HGV is at the head of a queue at lights, whether it's indicating or not, as a cyclist why not wait BEHIND IT. That's the safest place to be.
Trouble is how many people are prepared to think like that? How many think, 'i'm allowed to be there' or 'it's my right to be the there'...and off they go regardless.
I've posted this before, but some while back I noticed a family of 4 on bicycles cycling up the A82 (Fort William to Inverness). Mum, dad 2 kids, one very young. I cannot believe anyone can be so stupid to do that... two lorries meet or a coach and a lorry meet on a narrow, fast 'A' road with many bends etc...who on earth would want to be on a bicycle in those circumstances?...Yet they do it. It's their right.
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>> I've posted this before, but some while back I noticed a family of 4 on
>> bicycles cycling up the A82 (Fort William to Inverness). Mum, dad 2 kids, one very
>> young. I cannot believe anyone can be so stupid to do that... two lorries meet
>> or a coach and a lorry meet on a narrow, fast 'A' road with many
>> bends etc...who on earth would want to be on a bicycle in those circumstances?...Yet they
>> do it. It's their right.
How old is 'very young'?
I wouldn't want to ride that road with pre teens but then again people get caught out by lack of knowledge or, in that part of the world, alternative. Were they long distance or just linking off road sections? There's no other way but the A82 until Fort Augustus where General Wade's route goes down the other side of Loch Ness.
Mrs B and I rode from Bridge of Orchy to Ballachulish and then Oban a few years ago. The A82 was busy but a cinch compared with A roads in the SE of England. The memorable bit was having to pedal hard down Glen Coe on account of the headwind!
It was nice to get off onto the coast road though!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 2 Feb 12 at 21:09
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Watching that video, I noticed the cyclist took his hand off the handlebars a few times.
I wondered why, for a few moments, then it sank in - he was indicating his wish to change lanes/turn right.
It has been so long since I actually saw this in the 'wild' I had quite forgot its meaning......
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I'm more interested in the young cyclists in our seaside town who furiously ride (frequently on the pavement) bicycles which have no brakes whatsoever.
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'Fixies' (bikes with no freewheel) are a current fashion. They have limited need for a brake - though sophisticated models might have adisc brake on the transmission.
No excuses whatever for riding on pavement.
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>> 'Fixies' (bikes with no freewheel) are a current fashion. They have limited need for a
>> brake - though sophisticated models might have adisc brake on the transmission.
>>
>> No excuses whatever for riding on pavement.
>>
These are small basic BMX bicycles. The riders slow down/stop by pressing the sole of their shoe on the ground.
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This one got away with it but was lucky to live.
tinyurl.com/6mxp2h4 - item from Eve Standard 30 Jan.
Rider went up cycle lane on nearside of a petrol tanker which was indicating left and turned over him. Driver was cleared of careless driving although he might have seen cyclist's approach. Court seems to have taken on police evidence that it might have been "a pertinent move" for the cyclist to show "some level of caution".
IMHO right verdict (albeit narrowly) based on what's been reported.
Illustrates dangers of nearside cycle lanes feeding into Advance Stop Boxes.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 31 Jan 12 at 09:31
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Some interesting comments under the article too.
Pat
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>> Some interesting comments under the article too.
>>
>> Pat
I usually avoid comments on cycling articles to save my blood pressure. A well balanced set there (though inevtably one or two are trolling).
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I drive
I cycle
I want to live, therefore I do not drive down the inside of large vehicles - I just can't see how anybody can balance gaining a couple of seconds against a real risk of being an SKI statistic and come to the conclusion 'Well I'm happy to take the being squashed by a lorry' option
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>> I want to live, therefore I do not drive down the inside of large vehicles
Like you, even driving I'm very careful not to intrude into any space that might be 'swept' by an HGV. Equally I'm often terrified by others ignorance or risk taking in same circs.
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>> Like you, even driving I'm very careful not to intrude into any space that might
>> be 'swept' by an HGV. Equally I'm often terrified by others ignorance or risk taking
>> in same circs.
>>
I call them "brain dead" drivers, or cyclists.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 31 Jan 12 at 15:44
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The BBC breakfast programme has just done an interview on the rising death toll of cyclists. As it was the BBC it was about London but a woman from Sustrans, while acknowledging that HGV drivers have blind spots seem to think that lower speed limits were the answer to everything. Thats really going to help a cyclist in a blind spot on the inside of a stationary HGV indicating left.
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The Times has, for second day in a row, plastered its front page with a campaign to make cycling safer in London, a commendable objective, in my view. However, I think the cyclisst needtot make a contribution to their own safety See above re HGVs.
They could also
a. Comply with traffic signals and one way streets
b. Have lights working at night
c. Keep off the pavements
Cyclist safety needs a 2 way contribution.
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I made that very point to The Times when they rang me last week Meldrew but the media always ignore what it doesn't want to hear.
In the same vein I had an email on Boxing Day from the BBC wanting to talk to someone urgently.
I called their number and was told they were doing something about Haulage firms not being able to get vital supplies to London during the Olympics.
Would I comment pleas?
I told them that we'd been making plans for sometime to do just this, there was absolutely no substance to the rumour, and many deliveries were to be made to outlying warehouses anyway.
She got quite shirty with me because I wouldn't agree with her and neither did she use my quote!
Pat
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A colleague has just bought himself a headcam thing, to record "the catalogue of near misses he gets every day when cycling in". He's just showed me his commute from this morning.
Very interesting - at no junction did he look right and left, or indeed stop, at no overtake of parked cars or other cyclists did he look behind him, he went through two red lights, overtook a car in the middle of the road waiting to turn right, and went along the pavement at one point very close to a pedestrian.
His statement for these points was "that's what cyclists do, how else am I supposed to get along?", backed up by another colleague who also cycles, and was complaining about teenagers outside the school walking on the pavement and being in her way. She's on the pavement because the road is too dangerous.
Neither were receptive to my observations.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 3 Feb 12 at 09:00
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>> Neither were receptive to my observations.
>>
Are they car drivers? If so do they drive like that?
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They are both car drivers, but I don't know how they drive.
I'm struggling with whether it's sheer bloodymindedness, a genuine inability to see that some of this might be a problem, or maybe it's just positive cycling and I'm making too much of it. But about once a month one of them reports an "encounter". This morning's was "a Volvo did a three point and drove into me so I kicked his front grille and broke it. Bloke told me to p off so I did before he saw the damage".
Worrying.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 5 Feb 12 at 00:40
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Unfortunately they will eventually learn the hard way.
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Thanks for that Crankcase. What you have described sounds fairly typical of what many of us observe. Some cyclists seem to be chancers who sometimes get unlucky
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But I think many here are wrong about pavement cycling. It's absurd to compare bicycles with cars. They are much smaller and slower. Some roads and especially large junctions are dangerous even for a fast, athletic, highly aware cyclist (quite a low percentage of cyclists in London). The choice is either to use the pavement with due care or to get off and wheel the thing (Crankcase's lady colleague might have considered that option when passing the school for example).
There are cyclists who ride inconsiderately on the pavement, but most are careful and try not to alarm or collide with pedestrians. It's quite rare for pavements to be too narrow or crowded for this to be a reasonable option. In many places in London they have been widened to restrict road space, for no good reason that I can see.
Many cyclists and many pedestrians become aggressive because they don't understand what is involved in driving a motor vehicle. They deserve to be run over, but that would involve trouble for the vehicle driver so they usually aren't. But I have some sympathy with thuggish car drivers who get out and beat them up.
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The Times campaign is terribly biased for a (former) broad-sheet paper. Not that that is a surprise, it's just a shame.
The whole tone is 'what can be done about trucks, cars, junctions?' That is part of the equation, but cyclists have to accept their part of the problem.
The campaign talks about reducing truck use. Like, what is the alternative for clearing building sites, etc.? Yes, cyclists have a right to use the highway. They also have an alternative (bus train, walk, car). Something that cannot be said for large trucks, unless they are replaced by thousands of small pick-up trucks!? And if the roads are narrowed even more to allow cycle paths then road congestion and the costs to the economy will just multiply horrendously.
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Interesting piece in the Guardian's bike blog about 'changing places' with lorry drivers.
tinyurl.com/6w2gzse
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That Grauniad article is surprisingly well balanced, also note how easy the cycling bobby is to see, a simple hi viz from the pound shop does make a world of difference too when spotting errant objects in murky places like the nsf.
The article doesn't refer to the truck in the pic which does have an over the windscreen down mirror, so as cyclist crept up the nearside he should become visible in the winscreen down mirror before he's left the ns down mirror....well in a perfect world.
Over the screen and ns window mirrors are great but a couple of problems with them, the adjuster ball or fittings tend to seize up and unless the driver of the vehicle early in its life set the things properly they are often stuck pointing slightly or hugely the wrong way and not making full use of their field of vision, try and adjust them and they will likely break off, they often give a grand view of the front panel of the truck and only about a foot of road.
Ask to have it freed off at the likely workshops used by a skip company may not be met with enthusiasm indeed probably derision.
They are not usually heated, and in the case of windscreen down mirrors are often situated in an unswept part of the screen, they get dirty very quickly too.
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Cyclists in London - Old Navy
