I am unable to link to the full article as it is the subscribers area of the Sunday Times. However, the gist of it is here.
‘If the customer doesn’t make a complaint, don’t fix the car’
Dealers feared being fined by Toyota if they carried out ‘cosmetic repairs’ that did not affect safety.
Broadly speaking when a car comes in for service the customer signs a sheet listing their perceived faults, over and above the service items. If the car is under warranty faults found during the service are not rectified, as a matter of Toyota policy, as they have not been requested by the customer. If they are repaired Toyota can fine the dealer 4 x the cost of the work.
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I can only speak for BMW cars and bike warranty service, I have two experiences, one quite recent were faults have been picked up and repaired after a "chat" seems reasonable to me. Both are well regarded dealers in their field.
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Public relations and sales disaster looming here I think. Toyota have developed a great reputation for sticking foot in mouth lately.
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Relevant cut and paste from the article (extract)
However, Shaun Mcelhinney, who ran three Toyota and Lexus dealerships in Suffolk and Essex, said concerns about the policy continued until he sold his business last summer. “If it was a safety- related issue and the customer hadn’t reported it Toyota would always say ‘get it done’,” he said. “If it wasn’t safety and it wasn’t going to affect the performance of that car there and then: ‘not interested’.”
He listed items that might not be fixed if the customer failed to report them as: “water leaks, oil leaks, noisy steering racks, cosmetic things on the car such as alloy wheels — basically anything that wasn’t safety related”.
When cars came out of warranty, the dealer became free to tell the customer about the very same faults and charge them for the repairs because, he said, Toyota is “in the business of selling parts”.
He said that in the month before he sold his dealership last May, he had been penalised for replacing a set of corroded alloy wheels on an £80,000 Lexus because he could not prove that the customer had complained about them.
Link to the whole article, which probably won't work as it is to the subscribers section
www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/insight/article867712.ece
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Im not sure that this comes as a surprise. Don't think in all my new car buying history (Ford/Peugeot/Skoda) I have ever had a dealer volunteer to fix something under warranty that I had not specifically requested and I have never though they would. Perhaps I'm just realistic.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 5 Feb 12 at 13:04
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For clarity the warranty work on the bike was in relation to a slight oil-leak. It was pointed out to me at service time, and subsequently fixed.
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Is this about saving Toyota money or is it a customer service thing. I'd expect a phone call and might be a bit cross if work, beyond say replacing a bulb, was done without my say so - even if it was foc.
Toyota were very generous with goodwill when colleague had track rods or something similar wear on her far from new Yaris.
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>> I'd expect
>> a phone call and might be a bit cross if work, beyond say replacing a
>> bulb, was done without my say so - even if it was foc.
I wouldnt, If work that's been done FoC I would expect to be told when I picked up the car.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 5 Feb 12 at 13:02
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>> ‘If the customer doesn’t make a complaint, don’t fix the car’
>>
>> Dealers feared being fined by Toyota if they carried out ‘cosmetic repairs’ that did not
>> affect safety.
That's Not just Toyota's rules.... other manufactures also have similar rules....
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My Ceed was checked for outstanding Technical Service Bulletins at its first service. The dealer ordered the parts required, (a tailgate latch) and phoned me to arrange the fix when the parts arrived.
My Focus was put off the road by a dealer when I complained of an intermittent fault causing almost total loss of power that Ford was aware of (Although I was provided with a hire car by Ford). Had I not complained, (having been tipped off by a forum)............ Truck in my right ear at a roundabout?
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I've never had a dealer suggest that any form of work should be carried out under the guarantee of any new car that I have owned. Not heard of this happening to anyone else, either.
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>> I've never had a dealer suggest that any form of work should be carried out
>> under the guarantee of any new car that I have owned. Not heard of this
>> happening to anyone else, either.
>>
The fault with the tailgate latch on my car is the switch for the boot light sticking "on", I was aware of the TSB but did not check if my car was in the affected batch as I did not have the fault. The dealer carried out the fix without prompting from me. Full marks for KIA.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 5 Feb 12 at 13:57
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"I've never had a dealer suggest that any form of work should be carried out under the guarantee of any new car that I have owned."
This happened to a work colleague who had a new Peugeot 307 CC. He had no end of problems with this car and the car was in the dealership on average every 10 weeks for warranty work. For example, the steering rack and front brakes (pads and discs) were two items replaced under warranty. The one time the dealer had the car for a couple of days, when he collected it, they admitted to also replacing the radiator whilst it was in, as they had identified a fault with it. He ended up on first name terms with the service manager
This was the same dealer who, when he had reversing sensors fitted after three months of ownership, mis-drilled the rear bumper and fitted the reversing sensors at obviously different heights. They replaced the complete rear bumper with correctly fitted sensors. A few weeks later, when he was collecting his car after another warranty repair, he noticed their 307 CC demonstrator, was fitted with his original rear bumper with the mis-aligned reversing sensors.
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My current car is an Auris and my previous car a Corolla - both owned from new. My experience over the past five years has been that, in common with other car manufacturers, one signs 1 schedule to authorise work to be carried out on the car. This schedule details the work to be done (ie a 12,000 mile service), plus items to be checked that the customer has highlighted. At the last service (October 2011) I highlighted a broken cupholder that was replaced under warranty. The dealer informed me of one main beam bulb had gone, and they replaced this as part of the service.
Additionally Toyota dealers have to undertake a separate visual safety check on cars they have for service/warranty work, which, when done, they go through with the customer to highlight any areas of concern. This has been done since at least 2006.
I think it depends on the dealer/technician, as to how thoroughly work is carried out, and what faults, if any, are raised with the customer.
For example when my Corolla was 15 months old, I replaced the wiper blades with a pair of Bosch flat blades. At the second service, the technician had noted on the documentation that 'non-Toyota' wiper blades had been fitted, and this was raised with me when the car was ready.
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That sounds well removed from the ST shock/horror and more like what one would expect from a good dealer.
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Two warranty items - one on my last Focus, one on this one - both found and fixed by the dealer at service time.
One was a slight oil leak, the other was a driveshaft bearing which the dealer correctly said was undetectable to the driver.
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Each Toyota TSB I've seen says "if customer reports ...", but that's just the same as every other manufacturer I've known. And Toyota are good at extending the warranty on things which are common issues. And safety issues are always done even if their isn't a customer complaint.
My annual service on my landcruiser is normally only a fraction more than my wife's Jazz, so not a rip off either.
I've found it much harder to get Mazda to pay up.
Last edited by: Tigger on Sun 5 Feb 12 at 18:18
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The dealer I worked for tended to fight on the side of the customer rather than the manufacturer.
The collection and delivery drivers always made a habit of asking if there were any niggles such as loose gearlevers ( common MGF issue, easily fixed ).
Worth pointing out in light of some earlier comments, main dealers do not fund warranty work on cars, the manufacturer does, so that may be why they have no issue helping the customer out. Its also excellent for reputation.
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>> Worth pointing out in light of some earlier comments, main dealers do not fund warranty
>> work on cars, the manufacturer does, so that may be why they have no issue
>> helping the customer out.
>>
That is mostly true, But subject to the manufacturer agreeing with the claim, and paying the dealer.
IF the claim is disputed, and the manufacturer refuses to pay out, then either the dealer will ask for the customer to pay, or will cover the repair themselves.
As has already been mentioned, some manufacturers demand, that the only warranty repairs are safety related, or customer requested.. IF the manufacturer suspects it is neither, then they will refuse to pay out, AND will often go to the dealers premises and do an audit on previous and current warranty claims.....
.... the result of which can be, prepaid claims being credited (dealer pays...) or even the loss of the franchise to the dealer.
Helping out customers can be a VERY risky business!
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I had a very noisy gearbox on a car in warranty. The dealer would not touch it until the manufacturer authorised the replacement of the box, which they did within the day. It took two days to get the replacement box from Holland.
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>> I had a very noisy gearbox on a car in warranty. The dealer would not
>> touch it until the manufacturer authorised the replacement of the box, which they did within
>> the day. It took two days to get the replacement box from Holland.
>>
That's normal for major units (gearboxes, engines etc.)
Its the smaller jobs (maybe under £500 - £1500 depending on franchise) that verbal authorisation (or self authorisation) is allowed.
Doesn't take many small unpaid claims to cripple a dealer...
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When I had a Mercedes under warranty the dealer specifically offered to inspect it just before the warranty ran out to see if there were any items that needed attending to under warranty before the warranty ran out.
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>> When I had a Mercedes under warranty the dealer specifically offered to inspect it just
>> before the warranty ran out to see if there were any items that needed attending
>> to under warranty before the warranty ran out.
>>
There are people on the Mercedes forum who insist their cars must be MB dealer serviced as the dealers do lots of "updates". What they don't realise is that these updates are only normally done in response to specific customer compliants because if they're software related they can take literally hours.
Re Toyota, there's a thread on PistonHeads today from someone who took a 2007 50K mile Rav4 in for service. The dealer rang back and said it needs a new engine. Apparently there's a head / block issue that can't be repaired so Toyota is replace the complete engine, FOC.
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Crikey! Did it say which engine ?
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When our A3 was first MOT'ed the dealer replaced/fixed a few non safety related things that we'd not even noticed, let alone highlighted. A loose underbody shield of some kind, and a weeping rear damper (replaced both IIRC). I'm not convinced any of it actually needed doing, but it was clearly a useful bit of extra work for the dealer, and I assume Audi paid!
Interestingly the only additional work flagged to me as perhaps being necessary was the usual "front pads 70% worn, would you like them replaced" No hard sell though - I just said that 70% worn in 30something k miles meant there was a bit more life in them yet!
Though that has just reminded me that when the A4 was MOT'ed /serviced last week the front pads on that were also 70% worn, and that's done 50k miles!
Peter
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The Ford dealer I go to always informs me about anything which needs attention, both when the car is under warranty and when the car is out of warranty. When I pick up the car we arrange a suitable date for the work to be done. They don't do anything without my prior approval, which is the way it should be.
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I have had maybe 12 years of Audi warranty experience - not the same car !
I have now lost count of the number of items picked up at service which I had no knowlege of or had not bothered to mention. A moment's thought brings up, without asking I have had replaced suspension bushes, coil packs, brake pads, glove locker hinge damper, EGR (?) valve, 2 air con condensers, flaky number plates, brake light bulbs ....
I asked about corroded alloy wheels and got new ones too.
Outside the warranty I don't go anywhere near the dealer of course.
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>> EGR (?) valve,
Exhaust Gas Recirculation.
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Obviously I would say this wouldn't I, being a satisfied Toyota driver, but nonetheless it is so that my dealer has on a couple of occasions fixed stuff under warranty I knew nothing about and told me afterwards. They replaced the water pump in the Aygo, for example.
Last week I thought the wheel alignment could do with a check, and gave them authority to sort it, having beaten the price down to an eye watering £85 from their initial £99. But then they rang to say they'd checked it, it was in spec, and it would be wasting my money to adjust it. No charge.
I think that's good service, as they could have told me any old thing and they know it, although it leaves me with the manky tyres on it (from previous owner) being my issue.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 7 Feb 12 at 12:36
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Statement? That's more like a novel.
And you can be sure anyone who says they 'refute' something is unable to do so.
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Think Toyota must have been keen to cover all bases with their response.
Especially considering the allegations they faced in the States in 2009/2010 re unintended acceleration of their vehicles causing accidents. The NHTSA ten month inquiry into these accidents (where NASA engineers had open access to the computer software of Toyota's electronic control systems, etc) found that there was no fault with the electronic control systems which were alleged to be the cause. Of the 58 accidents included in the investigation, the NHTSA said the majority were caused by driver error (ie pressing the wrong pedals).
Back in the 80's Audi had problems with accidents caused by unintended acceleration - and they wiped out their sales in North America for years afterwards, by saying there was nothing wrong with their cars, and that the Americans didn't know how to drive.
At least with Toyota, the government agency for road safety cleared the Toyota control systems.
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>> And you can be sure anyone who says they 'refute' something is unable to do
>> so.
I refer the honourable gentleman to the Hawking Susskind disagreement, and thus refute your statement.
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>> I refer the honourable gentleman to the Hawking Susskind disagreement, and thus refute your statement.
That was a low blow Iffy. Hit him with Arkell v. Pressdram ;-)
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...That was a low blow Iffy...
I dunno what he's on about, ruddy academics.
"Refute' correctly means 'disprove', or 'prove something is not correct'.
Many people use 'refute' when they mean 'deny'.
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Toyota - Warranty work on Toyotas - R.P.
