Last Saturday the two junior Fullchats were placed safely on one of three coaches bound to the ski slopes of Italy as an organised school trip, destination - Valle d'Aosta . The company - Inter Ski. They were due to catch the Dover Calais crossing late Saturday night.
Meanwhile Mr and Mrs FC took advantage of a couple of days in a very wet Lake District.
So when we received a message late Sunday that there had been a coach crash involving schoolchildren near to Reims about 03.00 we became somewhat concerned.
However a couple of texts and the welfare of our siblings was checked as AOk.
It would seem that the coach that crashed was on the same itinerary as our offspring but a week earlier. So they would have either passed the scene or the coach just prior to the incident.
Sobering few moments. Condolences to all those connected with the teacher who died.
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Indeed. It is so easy to nod off behind the wheel (not that this is what necessarily happened here). The inventor who comes up with a device that solves the problem should be a very wealthy person.
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On a light note why do the the BBC speak of Reems rather than 'Rem' which I'd recognise in the French. Chalon en Champignons might have appeared once as well - or perhaps I imagined it.
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>> On a light note why do the the BBC speak of Reems rather than 'Rem'>>
>>
Cos us non polyglots have always said Reems as long as I can recall so we still recognise where it is ?
>>
>>Chalon en Champignons might have appeared once as well.
Relax. I have heard it more than once with an attempt at foreign speak.
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Reems rather than 'Rem'
I picked up on that - perhaps they were using a World War 1 guide to French Pronunciation - I thought it quite odd in this day and age that they either mispronounced it deliberately or made a schoolboy error.
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How do you pronounce P A R I S?
Paris or Paree?
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Paris or Paree?
Exactly
There have long been major European cities that have an accepted English pronunciation or name.
Paris, Cologne, Florence for example. "Reems' is another. In these days of foreign travel the move has been been to attempt a local pronunciation. Marseilles for example would have been pronounced Marsales by the BBC in the 1960s and Majorca would also have been pronounced in English with a soft J. but would not be so pronounced now
Rheims is perhaps going that way but "Reems' is not wrong. Indeed "Rem" would currently sound a little pretentious to many English ears - Like Koln Or Firenze would.
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>> Reems rather than 'Rem'
>>
>>
>> I picked up on that - perhaps they were using a World War 1 guide
>> to French Pronunciation - I thought it quite odd in this day and age that
>> they either mispronounced it deliberately or made a schoolboy error.
>>
There are three different and entirely valid pronunciations depending on where in the region you are.
On a flight across Reims airspace it's not unusual to hear "Rem", "Reems", and "Reims" in fairly quick succession from the French or Swiss controllers.
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I have always known Rheims as pronounced as 'Ranss' or 'Rance' as a local version. I am surprised that it has not been mentioned in this thread?
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Standard French pronunciation of Rheims is virtually identical to standard French pronunciation of 'rince' (meaning rinse). The s is pronounced soft, not like a z. The 'in' or 'eim' sound is heavily nasalized, like an old-fashioned Jewish New Yorker expressing extreme doubt.
But when you are speaking English it's quite acceptable to anglicize the pronunciation as 'reams', as one does with parriss, renno, sitrun etc. Doing a tortured French pronunciation of a commonly used word or name in the middle of an English sentence (unless speaking to a French person) always sounds twozzerish to me.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 26 Feb 12 at 16:14
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>> Doing a tortured French pronunciation of a
>> commonly used word or name in the middle of an English sentence (unless speaking to
>> a French person) always sounds twozzerish to me.
>>
Quite agree. There's usually a degree of one upmanship involved. Johnny foreigner does it to us..and why wouldn't they. Our country's moniker in the Eurovision song contest is a good example.
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>>The inventor who comes up with a device that solves the
>> problem should be a very wealthy person.
As everyone knows, as explained in the Simpsons episode "Maximum Homerdrive" there is indeed a system in use called the Navitron Autodrive system. Its a closely guarded secret by all truckers in case they loose their jobs.
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>> The inventor who comes up with a device that solves the
>> problem should be a very wealthy person.
>>
Mercedes already fit E/S classes, and maybe other models, with 'Attention Assist', which claims to identify and alert the driver of drowsiness: tinyurl.com/7u4g9us
Never activated on mine, though the little steaming coffee cup on the dashboard (indicating the system is active) does occasionally prompt some passengers to ask where the coffee is dispensed from ;-)
Peter
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VW have this in some of their cars like the Passat too.
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I thought those systems were just simple timers, rather than an eyeball monitor to detect drowsiness, like the system Volvo (I think) were working on some years ago now.
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There's one in mine. Not sure how or if it works. Don't fancy shutting my eyes for long enough to test it !
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>> There's one in mine. Not sure how or if it works. Don't fancy shutting my
>> eyes for long enough to test it !
>>
Hmm, I've just had a vision of a French coach driver saying; "Oui, of course eet works. I just 'ave to close my eyes like thees............."
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>> I thought those systems were just simple timers, rather than an eyeball monitor to detect drowsiness
The VW one monitors the steering. I assume when fatigue strikes there is some warning in the way you steer.
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I had a C-Class rental car recently. I was wondering what the little coffee cup in the middle of the speedo meant until after about an hour it started flashing red and saying "Pause!" (German for take a break).
I've subsequently spoken to some of the engineers at the supplier who designed this system. The algorithms used are actually quite clever. Basically there are sensors monitoring the driver's face and the steering wheel. The system looks for changes in behaviour, especially speed of steering inputs compared with the speed of the car. It's apparently also good at detecting reactions slowed through drink or drugs.
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I thought this was stopped coaches driving through the night.
For the sake of a overnight sleep this could have been prevented.All boils down to money I suppose.
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>> For the sake of a overnight sleep this could have been prevented.All boils down to
>> money I suppose.
>>
Exactly my thoughts. So much so I discussed this with my missus and said unless the system is changed, there's no way my kid will go on such a trip, these things happen with monotonous regularity.
I do a long trip 2 or 3 times year (500 miles plus). At times i'll do it overnight. When you start getting properly tired, you pull over and have a nap. 40 mins will do it for me, although the longest was an hour and a half. If you take a pillow it's surprising how comfortable (ish) you can be... or more accurately, you're so tired the set up will do.
I have no doubt it's 'not the done thing' for a coach to pull in to services and the driver to take an hour's nap...well it should be.
Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 08:23
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But I thought that there were 2 drivers on that coach?
I would expect the 2nd driver to exercise some judgement if he thought that the driver was not 100% - although he could have been asleep?
Does double manning on a coach have a fixed protocol on sleeping before and during an overnight and day journey?
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There were 2 drivers. All drivers had complied fully with the hours and sleep regulations, French police state the Tacho's were in compliance with those, there was no sniff of drink or drugs.
Many C4Pers will have done that very Autoroute its deeply boring with little to stimulate the driver.
As for "predictable monotony", hundreds of thousands, nay MILLIONS of school kids do the very same thing annually without mishap. Statistically its safe.
And I am surprised at the "wont let my kids" mentality. That is so short sighted and extremely selfish. I hope your kids berate you long and soundly when they are older for being deprived of the same chances and experiences (and its education) their mates had.
No wonder teens hate their parents.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 08:45
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>> As for "predictable monotony", hundreds of thousands, nay MILLIONS of school kids do the very
>> same thing annually without mishap. Statistically its safe.
>>
>> And I am surprised at the "wont let my kids" mentality. That is so short
>> sighted and extremely selfish. I hope your kids berate you long and soundly when they
>> are older for being deprived of the same chances and experiences (and its education) their
>> mates had.
Zero,
Does your missus moan at you that you've become a grumpy old man?
Coaches have schedules to keep and costs to bear. I'd imagine most British set ups do play by the rules...it's normally what we do.
However, very long boring journeys need decent breaks...and...the driver has to have the autonomy to 'do his/her own thing' if they need to, to break that monotony if they feel too tired.
Having two drivers (which I had no doubt would have been the case) is a complete red herring, as the other one would have been kipping..and rightly so.
Even if a given driver has had their full amount of 'rest hours' as per the tacho, they still might be excessively tired on the journey, for a number of reasons.
On a private journey you'd stop for as long as it took to refresh yourself, you'd have 40 winks if necessary...if you were that bad you could book in to a hotel. A coach driver is under obligation to his company to get the party to the ferry by a specific time..so there will be pressure to achieve that and the culture at present is not sufficient for a driver to take a long stop if they wished/ought to.
For that reason my kids will not be going on one...because it is not uncommon to read reports about accidents....several times a year usually.
I can't see how that's selfish, but don't worry yourself, the kids will gain in other ways.
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because it is not uncommon to read reports about accidents....several times a year usually.
But that's the problem. A bit like aircraft , when a coach crashes, especially when children are on board it's all over the papers. The perceived risk is actually much higher than the actual risk. Last time I saw any stats coach travel was a lot, lot safer than travel by private car.
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>> Zero,
>>
>> Does your missus moan at you that you've become a grumpy old man?
No she doesn't. She thinks I am a laid back but responsible father who's son has grown up to be confident drug free well adjusted and able to make his own way in the world because his father didn't wrap him in cotton wool but provided support.
Does your wife think you are an overbearing control freak?
I can just imagine school
Friend to Westie Junior: You going on the school trip? Westie Junior. "nah my dad wont let me, thinks I am going to get killed" Friend "ah well the rest of us will have a good time - your dad must be a complete ( insert current term of abuse ) "
Imagine how your kids will feel.
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>> For that reason my kids will not be going on one...because it is not uncommon
>> to read reports about accidents....several times a year usually.
Westpig - out of curiosity have you compared the chances of being involved in an accident when you're driving your kids somewhere to the chances of a school trip coach being involved in an accident? I would guess the former is higher - I know you've got a certain amount of control over it (safe driving etc.), but presumably a fair number of accidents are due to factors outside of your control.
Having said that, you won't get be in a helicopter, but that I admit that is irrational fear of non-fixed wing aircraft; I haven't analysed the stats.
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>> you won't get be in a helicopter, but that I admit that is irrational fear of non-fixed wing aircraft; I haven't analysed the stats.
I'm scared of helicopters too. There's so much stress and activity at the boss of the rotor... seems too Heath Robinson to be dependable. But then I don't really like flying at all being given to vertigo.
But I don't think I'd refuse to go in one if there was any sort of good reason. I once wrote and signed a bit of paper saying that my relations wouldn't sue if I got killed by the enemies of the people who made me sign the bit of paper. Being under fire is quite fun in retrospect if you aren't killed or wounded.
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>> But I don't think I'd refuse to go in one if there was any sort
>> of good reason.
No, if I got injured up a mountain or suchlike then I'd accept a lift in one to a hospital. I'd prefer it if I was unconscious though :)
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When I had my accident I turned down the Air Ambulance in favour of the one with four wheels and a steering wheel. If the engine in that failed I wasn't going to come crashing to the ground.
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Not for nothing is main rotor retaining nut that holds the main rotor to the mast known as the Jesus nut
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Here is the law for double manning coaches:
The same rules apply to vehicles continuously manned by two or more drivers except that during each period of 30 hours each driver shall have a rest period of not less than 8 consecutive hours.
For this rule to apply, there must be more than one driver travelling with the vehicle at all times. If, for any reason, only one driver is left on board the vehicle then the single manning rules will apply.
In a multiple manned vehicle, the other drivers may take a break on the moving vehicle whilst one driver is driving but not a daily rest period.
In effect daily duty for a double manned crew is a maximum of 22 hours.
Which would mean that the other driver was more than likely asleep, and it's easy to see why.
Pat
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Don't be too hard on Westpig, he's acquired recent newborn, so he's probably not getting too much sleep and what with being recently retired he's also got too much time on his hands. ;>)
I expect he's got the male equivalent of 'baby brain' and wants to protect his offspring, however he can't prevent all risks and living where he does he may be putting them at more risk from radon gas than an accident in a coach.
I'm sure his children will experience far greater risks in their lifetime.
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Very true. If I look back on your my own childhood and think of the dangerous things I did its a wonder I survived!
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>> I expect he's got the male equivalent of 'baby brain' and wants to protect his
>> offspring, however he can't prevent all risks and living where he does he may be
>> putting them at more risk from radon gas than an accident in a coach.
Yes to be fair when the time comes he will probably have become a bit laid back about parenting and realise the more important risks to guard against.
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>>Which would mean that the other driver was more than likely asleep, and it's easy to see why.<<
If a driver (person) only sleeps for 8hrs in 24 surely there is a a 50% chance that the other driver will be awake at any given time? It will however be dependent on the pattern of changes?
If the other driver is awake, does he lock himself away or sit up front?
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My Mother-in-Law won't go on aeroplanes because she has heard that they sometimes crash.
She won't drive on the motorway because she has heard that sometimes there are accidents.
She used to go on cruises but says she won't now because of that Italian incident.
That's coaches stuffed now.
Only needs a train to crash in Peru or somewhere and she's grounded.
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>> Only needs a train to crash in Peru or somewhere and she's grounded.
Argentina is not far from Peru.
This coach accident is just an "accident". A momentary lapse in concentration can't be prevented using any legislation. With better laws and gadgets, accident rate will come down but it still can't be entirely eliminated.
It is true that coach journey is overall safer than car journey (and somewhat more comfortable too).
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>> That's coaches stuffed now.
>> Only needs a train to crash in Peru or somewhere and she's grounded.
Best not show her that youtube link of the train crashing into the coach in Argentina?
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 13:18
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Should you feel the need, Humph, you could corral her in a small area by putting her off bridges with Mapmaker's excellent demolition video.
'You may not be aware of this, but bridges sometimes explode with great violence, when damp gets at the highly-stressed structural components...'
Just a suggestion...
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The helicopter example is a good one.
The last time I was in a helicopter was in Las Vegas. We flew into the Grand Canyon, landed, had a glass of champagne, then flew back at dusk and saw all the ligths go on, on the strip...and lovely it was too.
One week to the day later, I got home...bunged on the old computer, put on BBC news to catch up with things...and there it was...the same outfit i'd been on, a Las vegas based helicopter ahd one of their machines crash and burn. Pilot and 6 tourists all died.
It focused my mind about helicopter travel. Unless at all possible I will avoid them, there are just that too many incidences when they crash and burn.
Same with long distance overnight coach journeys, in my mind. Unless there is a cultural change in the prcatices of transporting kids across continents..they won't be going.
I couldn't give a flying wotsist what the percentages are...unless i'm convinced there is a sensible culture whereby a tired driver could easily pull off the road...even if it meant missed ferries, even if it meant late arrival back at school, even if it cost more money, even if it meant another hotel bill, etc......then my mind's made up.
www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.helicoptercrashes.com/charter-helicopters/helicopter-collides-with-grand-canyon-wall-09202003&sa=U&ei=h2tGT-vvKaK-0QWGyqGoDg&ved=0CB4QFjAC&usg=AFQjCNEcumyGsAGZmEz5kAQMz_7YXeFlhQ
Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 16:40
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>>I couldn't give a flying wotsist what the percentages are...unless i'm convinced there is a sensible culture whereby a tired driver could easily pull off the road...even if it meant missed ferries, even if it meant late arrival back at school, even if it cost more money, even if it meant another hotel bill, etc......then my mind's made up.
<<
From one who has double manned a lorry from Elgin to Cornwall via Leicester for over 6 weeks at a time, I wholeheartedly agree with you WP.
I'm covering safe driving in my current DCPC sessions and the one factor that shocks when I explain to them is that opening a window, putting on music and stopping for a coffee, won't alleviate the tiredness.
It needs a minimum of 15 minutes nap to do that ...and the backbone to say so to the boss.
It's not that easy for a coach driver and we all have the greatest sympathy with him.
And before anyone questions it...with the dead and injured as well.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 16:55
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>> From one who has double manned a lorry from Elgin to Cornwall via Leicester for
>> over 6 weeks at a time, I wholeheartedly agree with you WP.
It's narrowing down the unacceptable risks in my mind. I'm not saying no kids should take any risk or no kids should travel on coaches...but mine won't be going overnight on long journeys whilst the time culture overrides the safety culture..and the accidents we periodically hear about, involving some of the better drivers in the world, who live in one of the most safety conscious countries in the world...proves it.
>>
>> I'm covering safe driving in my current DCPC sessions and the one factor that shocks
>> when I explain to them is that opening a window, putting on music and stopping
>> for a coffee, won't alleviate the tiredness.
I used to be the police Safe Driving rep for two London Boroughs (at different times). Getting a whole culture changed is not at all easy.
>> It needs a minimum of 15 minutes nap to do that ...and the backbone to
>> say so to the boss.
>>
>> It's not that easy for a coach driver and we all have the greatest sympathy
>> with him.
Quite agree.
I've done the nodding dog bit and had the wake up call from the rumble strip...but that was just me on board. I've now learnt to stop and nap...for however long it takes..and that it is extremely foolish to do otherwise. I do not wish for the employee of a coach firm to go through his/her own learning process in a similar fashion.. whilst my sprogs are on it.
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>>.....then my mind's made up.
Closed I would say. Parenting is coming to come tough for you.
Edit - you had best give up flying as well.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 16:56
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>> Closed I would say. Parenting is coming to come tough for you.
Not at all. Firmly made up for now. When the system's changed...off the kids will go on the trip.
>>
>> Edit - you had best give up flying as well.
Helicopters, probably 'yes'. Other forms of flight, with well known Western outfit with good safety record 'no'. Dodgy third world set up 'yes', you won't get me on it.
I've always been like it. As a young man a mate bought a speedboat. He laughed like hell when I insisted on taking the brand new life belt out from under the seat, unwrapping it and holding on to it...whilst he drove like a **** around Burgh Island, bouncing from wave to wave.
It's called common sense and narrowing down your options in your favour. More often than not it won't be a problem, if it is, you've created your own luck.
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...and i've just remembered my nickname from those days..."Captain Sensible"
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>> It focused my mind about helicopter travel. Unless at all possible I will avoid them,
>> there are just that too many incidences when they crash and burn.
I'd formed that opinion before we went to the Grand Canyon a couple of years ago. However Mrs F had been quite keen to do a helicopter trip, but then I showed her some of the crash reports (including the one in Westpig's link I think) and she wasn't so keen.
So we had a very pleasant walk along the rim. Well, it would have been, if son hadn't insisted on scrambling over rocks to get closer to the edge, which had me wishing we'd taken the chopper!
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I dont trust choppers, they are not natural flyers, don't glide or land well without engines ( dont give me this autogyrate crap - its luck) - I hate them.
But, When in Vegas I flew into the canyon and landed on the "the beach" for the champagne lunch. It probably my last time in Vegas, and I will never get to experience it again. You can't let irrational fears run your life. Life is there to be experienced.
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Exactly Z. If the bullet has your name on it sort of thing. Otherwise just get on with things. There's not much time left anyway!
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It's all about shortening the odds though, isn't it?
Pat
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If that's your way, sure of course.
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>> If that's your way, sure of course.
>>
We all do that...it's just to what degree.
You wouldn't let your kids walk up a m/way to get to school, even if it was easier.
You probably wouldn't let them walk up a main dual carriageway.
You might/might not let them walk up a single carriage 'A' road, busy, with hazards
You probably would let them do the single carriageway 'A' road, not busy, limited hazards.
You'd definitley let them walk up a quiet 'B' road
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From about the age of 8 I used to cycle across and around central Edinburgh 5 miles each way to get to and from school. Sometimes I'd have to go back into town again in the evenings for Rugby training or out to Hillend at the foot of the Pentlands for skiing training. At weekends as a bunch of kids and dogs running with us we'd cycle down the coast road to North Berwick ( 25 miles each way ) to play on the beach in the summer.
I have encouraged my son ( now 12 ) to be similarly independent. He quite happily cycles and walks on busy routes and I trust him to do so safely.
It all depends on your attitude to these things I guess. No right answer in my view. Just what feels right to the individual.
We're all different I suppose.
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It's actually something we all use to do as a matter of course.
Now it seems that the Health and Safety culture we live in has prevented anyone looking out for their own safety.
The public seems to think there is a guardian angel up there in the for of 'rules' and they don't have to do anything.
How many of you think the tachograph rules must be broken if a lorry or coach driver falls asleep at the wheel?
How many were aware of the ability to start work at 3am (getting up at 1.30am) and not finishing until 6pm in the evening before a couple of us on here pointed them out to you?
Ian got u at 2.15am this morning and started work at 3.45am, he tipped at Leeds at 7am then on to Elland, Heckmondwycke, Batley and Wakefield. He then loaded out of another firm in Wakefield and tipped at Peterborough. He will be back at the yard in Guyhirn at 6.15. After filling up with diesel and dropping his trtravelingtravelling home he'll be here around 7.30pm.
That's a perfectly normal days work for any lorry driver, and coach drivers are expected to do the equivalent.
When it all goes pear shaped is when he gets home, it's almost 9pm before he's had a shower and eaten and time to get up again at 2.30am tomorrow to do it all again.
It puts driving LEGALLY, but very tired, into perspective, doesn't it?
Pat
EDIT TO ADD: I'm tired of this forum turning my posts into gobbledegook because it can't cope with IE9
Last edited by: pda on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 17:31
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>> It puts driving LEGALLY, but very tired, into perspective, doesn't it?
>>
Yes......and makes you wonder what the illegal ones do.
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The roads of Northern France are not littered with the burned out skeletal remains of coaches, funeral pyres to the hundreds of of britains lost lost youth, charcoaled by the evil stay up all night coach drivers.
Far from it. I will lay a small wager here that more brits are killed in normal family cars on the roads of france than any number of coach journeys.
Its not a matter of shortening the odds,. There odds are SOOOOOO short you cant shorten them any longer.
Honestly you guys should be working for the Daily Mail. Huge mountains made from worcasts our speciality
Get a grip.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 19:02
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I didn't go to Vegas. Not really my sort of place I thought, perhaps wrongly. I will never know now. But I have a sort of Vegas story.
Minicabbing one day, picked up a black guy I knew slightly from Africa. Well, he knew me and it was obvious he did. It was an account job for the Who's Ramport recording studio in Battersea. The guy said he was going to see this rock star I had met down there, recording an album at Ramport. I quite wanted to see the rocker for various reasons.
I radioed in that I was taking the rest of the day off, went in and asked the sort of roadie type behind the desk to ask the musician to come out, explaining where I had met him so that he would take it seriously. The roadie went in, then came back and asked me to wait.
When the rock musician came out and saw me, before even saying hello he said tersely to the roadie type: 'Lagos you pfd, not Las Vegas.' Spent the rest of the afternoon watching a mop-haired guitarist giving his all in a glass box and listening to the musician and the recording engineer vying to make unkind, obscene and under the circumstances ungrateful remarks about the poor fellow. Apparently his efforts were all destined for the cutting room floor.
It wasn't all that different from being a South London minicab driver to tell the truth.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 25 Feb 12 at 00:11
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Lud, I would love to sit and share a good bottle or red with you and share some tales of times gone by;)
Pat
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>> Lud, I would love to sit and share a good bottle or red with you
>> and share some tales of times gone by;)
ditto
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The whole issue her is cost. When I was at school (1981) we went skiing in Italy, but we flew, Britannia Airways from Luton to Verona. The whole trip cost mum about £150 istr.
In order to keep these trips within reach of ordinary parents (and freeloading teachers) the journey is done by coach these days, and night travel is required to maximise the number of days on the slopes.
That said I am to some extent with WP on this - unless its by air, son minor ain't going - though he his showing no signs of wanting to at the moment. Skiing is a grossly over-rated pastime of the middle classes anyway.
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Skiing is a grossly over-rated pastime of the middle classes anyway.
>>
I used to think (pretty much) the same and never got the chance as it's expensive. Then I got the chance to do it with work. One of the best weeks I've had. Not saying btw that you've never tried it.
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I'm struggling with the risk assessment processes of some in this thread.
Kids are going skiiing with all the risks of the slopes not to mention apres ski teenage tomfoolery and the veto factor is the coach journey there!!!! Even in this case most of the children suffered no more than minor injuries and were home by Monday.
Nether of my two showed any interest in skiiing but daughter went to Koln in furtherance of her German and son to Brittany on what seemed more like an adventure holiday. Both survived unscathed but son was hospitalised with appendicitis a week after he got back.
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You are more likely to break your neck walking down the stairs or crossing a road than an overnight coach trip....by many thousands to one
...however
....you could not easily avoid the stairs or the road...but you could an overnight coach trip.
Why bother doing something that has an inherent risk, when you don't have to?
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>> Why bother doing something that has an inherent risk, when you don't have to?
because the numbers and facts indicate the coach journey is NOT an inherent risk.
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>> because the numbers and facts indicate the coach journey is NOT an inherent risk.
>>
I'm willing to drop the word 'inherent'.
You've got more chance of being involved in a coach accident on a British registered vehicle, whilst driving at night on a very long journey, than in most other circumstances.
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You are still talking up a risk to levels that simply don't exist.
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My offspring going on a ski trip was not offered so no decision needed by us.
Both have been on Uni ski trips but that is their choice.
Back in 1964 ? SWMO to be and I went on a IIRC a £20 coach holiday to Rimini.
UK coach to the Channel, on the ferry and then straight through to the Italian Alps some where. At lunch we swopped coaches with an Italian one which had brought the previous tribe from Rimini.
I do recall the non active driver kipping in the aisle in a sleeping bag en route and watched the drivers swop over on the move at motorway speeds!
The route took us down the valley where the Vajont Dam was but in the aftermath of the Mount Toc landslide. We could have been there at the wrong time like 2000 poor souls.
The only major disaster scene I have seen.
I have had a few near misses in my life, to list a few.
In 1968 an Airspeed Ambassador crashed at Heathrow Terminal I. 2/3 hours earlier I was standing where the aicraft hit the building.
Far too close to the BOAC Whisky Echo incident at Heathrow.
On holiday in Cyprus when a BEA Comet en route to Cyprus was downed by a bomb. We were on that flight one week earlier.
The office I had been working in in Malta was bombed two weeks after one of my visits.
For many years we lived at Hounslow between the main aircraft approach paths with no worries.
At one stage, before the M25 was ready, I chose to commute to from Heathrow & Gatwick by helicopter so no fear of the birds.
Never gone beyond the local ski slope and certainly would never try it again. far to risky at my stage of life. So my kids enjoy I and I never will.
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>> Far too close to the BOAC Whisky Echo incident at Heathrow.
This one?
aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19680408-0
Would runway 05R have been be the reciprocal to what eventually became just 23, the x/wind runway that ran between the Central Area and the east side Maintenance areas?
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Yes that correct.
One report at the time from an eye witness has stuck in my memory.
It is a case of what you see and what you guess has happened.
It was something like this :- A guy was by the flooded sand pit ( maybe he was fishing) and he reported that " The pilot was fantastic- he jettisoned that engine into the water so nobody was hurt"
I was working in a building adjacent to the perimeter road under the approach to 28R when a VC10 did a very late aborted landing. It was very scary and we all bolted out the door only to see WE on fire. Due to our angle of view we were uncertain if it was coming our way.
All we could do was witness the terrible fire etc.
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>> Why bother doing something that has an inherent risk, when you don't have to?
Because the risk tiny, manageable is part of a wider, desirable and life enhancing experience.
I could exemplify with sexual encounters but thought better of it!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 21:46
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Friend of mine used to take groups fell walking.
He would sometimes ask them to identify the biggest risk of the trip.
Responses were always a selection of: falling, dehydration, getting lost on the mountain, etc.
All wrong, he reckoned by far the biggest risk was the mini-bus crashing on the way there or back.
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>> I dont trust choppers, they are not natural flyers,
On this morning's news - rescue chopper in Brazil (no injuries fortunately):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NEGiblNFO4
Last edited by: Focus on Fri 24 Feb 12 at 08:12
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I used to drive regulary abroad overnight.Got off the ferry in Calais to stop overnight in a hotel.Dauhter then about seven was with me.Couldn't find the hotel early morning no sat nav and tired.Driving from Calais to Holland thought I could make it driving through the night.No way, started to nod and had to stop,three hrs kip in the car.Learned my lesson not worth it.
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>> thought I could make it driving through
>> the night.No way, started to nod and had to stop,three hrs kip in the car.Learned
>> my lesson not worth it.
>>
I find it quite bizarre that someone who knows personally what it's like to nearly fall asleep on a m/way (because he's done it)...and who has worked for 30 years in an emergency service doing his fair share of night shifts (and being dog tired with it)...and who still regularly does a 500 mile journey (twice a year)...
...recognises fully the dangers involved......can apply some common sense...and can fully see the pressures coach drivers are under and the lack of leeway in the system to add more safety...
...then gets labelled by some as an over protective father who will stifle his kids education/learning processes
...purely because the accident numbers are not statistically high enough for some to warrant thinking about?
How about one being one too many...when you consider they are easily avoidable.
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The numbers are not "statistically high enough" to even be a statistic.
Its not a risk.
Lets be frank about it - You are being paranoid. No other word for it.
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The bloke fell asleep Zero with a coach full of children might not be a statistic.
But why taking the change agree to disagree.>:)
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Because dutchie, there are many more REAL risks to worry about when it comes to kids.
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We are all making a fairly large leap to the conclusion that driver is proven to have fallen asleep. French investigators may have said they’re swaying that way but is it possible he had some other debilitating condition?
We’ve been told driver passed alcohol /drugs tests and that tacho shows unexplained speed variations in ten kilometres before impact. Lots of conditions from undiagnosed diabetes through viral infections to mini strokes can lead to brief loss of consciousness. Most could happen as easily on a single manned bus taking kids on school trip to the zoo.
I wonder if the teacher who died was on his feet trying to avert a problem?
The ‘system’ is there for a purpose; to provide structure and certainty. Once you give people a licence to vary it then, with the best will in the world, they can make things worse. How many air incidents/accidents are down to deviation from Standard Op Processes? Ditto on the trains.
Coaches must have to stop regularly for passengers needs with time for driver to take a breather – that’s in the plan.
What do you do with 46 bored crotchety teens while driver has 40 unplanned winks? No possibility of putting them up overnight as a family might. Only the big ‘aires’ with catering etc are suitable for those numbers in hours of darkness. Quite a few on the A26 are only a filling station and shop with hazardous car parks etc. The unmanned ones with a couple of basic loos are probably a no no for coaches even in daylight.
I think when your kids are still as young as Westpig’s it’s very difficult to imagine the time when you’re going to start letting them off the leash. Had I been asked when my daughter was three if I’d let her go on World Challenge (www.world-challenge.co.uk/) I’d probably have said no way Jose.
At 17 she had a whale of a time in Ecuador for 4 weeks and learned a huge amount planning for it and working to raise the cost.
EDITED as swear filter threw a hissy at word made famous in Clochemerle!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 24 Feb 12 at 14:45
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Mods - an oddity with closing bracket is making my world challenge link throw a 404.
PLease could somebody edit?
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>>The ‘system’ is there for a purpose; to provide structure and certainty<<
Despite evidence from both WP and myself that the 'system' doesn't actually work very well in practice, you still prefer to put faith in it?
I find that unbelievable.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Fri 24 Feb 12 at 14:58
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Pat,
Read your post about Ian's day and thought 'chapeau'!!.
I had to drive to Leeds and back a couple of weeks ago for a reasonably uncontroversial business meeting. Was out much less time, in an easier vehicle and didn't have to rinse and repeat for a week but was completely whacked the following day.
No blind faith in system and I'm sure it's not perfect but on the whole it seems to work. We don't know if it failed in this case, just that the driver may have lost consciousness.
I do think A system is needed and letting people 'do their own thing' seeks out the very trouble one looks to avoid.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 24 Feb 12 at 15:21
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>> >>The ‘system’ is there for a purpose; to provide structure and certainty<<
>>
>> Despite evidence from both WP and myself that the 'system' doesn't actually work very well
>> in practice, you still prefer to put faith in it?
>>
>> I find that unbelievable.
>>
>> Pat
Given that, as i said the roads are not littered with coaches and dead people, it seems to work well enough.
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>> Given that, as i said the roads are not littered with coaches and dead people,
>> it seems to work well enough.
>>
How many very near misses are there?...You know the trip down the rumble strip and the sudden realisation you've had a very close call.
It could easily be dealt with and eradicated...why the 'head in sand'?
Is it a case of 'well we had it like that, so why not'.
There aren't that many air crashes in the big scheme of things...yet there's a full investigation each time to try to eradicate it for next time...why not with coaches?
...and for the pedants out there I don't mean forming a Coach Investigation Branch and having thousands of pounds spent on investigations...I mean, if there's a problem*, sort it and move on.
* even if it is a statistically small problem
Last edited by: Westpig on Fri 24 Feb 12 at 18:41
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>> >> Given that, as i said the roads are not littered with coaches and dead
>> people,
>> >> it seems to work well enough.
>> >>
>>
>> How many very near misses are there?...You know the trip down the rumble strip and
>> the sudden realisation you've had a very close call.
>>
>> It could easily be dealt with and eradicated...why the 'head in sand'?
Because it cant be eradicated not completely. Only by banning coaches completely are you going to resolve the situation. A situation that is not causing a significant issue.
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Reading this thread with interest, having kids currently at school.
When I was in my late teens each year I would go to Lourdes in the South of France on a coach involving overnight journeys and never had a single incident.
The biggest risk to my kids is society and peer pressure. I regularly worry about them staying on the straight and narrow, not falling into wrong crowds etc. I don't worry about coach trips or such things.
Each morning they walk to school along some busy roads, I don;t worry about any of the drivers on those roads are driving home after a 12 hour nightshift.
Three years ago ourselves and two other families drove to the South of France. One of my friends rolled their car on the Autoroute just before Paris because another driver side swiped him. This was daylight.
Four years ago, our house went on fire. I am very careful about switching things off, naked flames etc but that was irrelevant when my neighbour had a cock-up with diy and set my house on fire.
We all do risk assessments every day from the minute we get up (many may do risk assessments when they go to bed at night :)
However we will all have different levels of risk aversion. When my kids were young I was very protective, remember their first steps walking along and getting ready to catch them as they fall over? When my second child came along, I let him fall as I knew that the nappy provided good padding. Child 1 had baby monitor on every night and constantly checking on her, Child 2 the monitor was left on mute because we knew that he would cry himself to sleep.
Would be interesting to see how many coach crashes happened during the day as opposed to night? Might be more risk of driver falling asleep during the night, but is there more risk of being hit by another vehicle during the day as the roads are busier?
Was the guy who crashed the landrover onto the train track (in the morning) not found to have been up all night on his computer?
Is there not likely to be more drink drivers the morning after rather than night time?
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>> Because it cant be eradicated not completely. Only by banning coaches completely are you going
>> to resolve the situation. A situation that is not causing a significant issue.
>>
You could easily resolve one element of a known problem...the 'driving through the night coach problem'. As statistically small as it is, you could quite easily eradicate it. Why not do that?
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>> You could easily resolve one element of a known problem...the 'driving through the night coach
>> problem'. As statistically small as it is, you could quite easily eradicate it. Why not
>> do that?
But what is the 'driving through the night coach problem'?
Coaches run overnight up/down the UK and across mainland Europe- millions of passenger miles every year. Inevitably there are accidents in which very occasionally people die or suffer disabling injuries. But for every 'victim' who gets even a scratch several hundreds of thousands get there and back untouched.
No real problem.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 24 Feb 12 at 23:25
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The biggest problem is the human factor.
The driver/s have stayed in resort all week. They will be departing after T Saturday. They will have had a week of regular sleeping at night and doing whatever they do during the day - probably skiing. I understand some drivers were being interviewed on the radio and stated that they have to share rooms which impacts on their ability to get the rest that suits their requirements - cost factors.
So they drive into the night to meet a time deadline for the ferry. Even with regular changes and stops they will hit the wall about 3.00 am. Anyone who has worked shifts will know how hard and steep that wall is. The passengers will all be tearing off zzzzzs. The road will be straight and the cats eyes hypnotic.
Having worked shifts of 7 nights its not until about the 5th that I felt human throughout the night and the body clock reversed itself. So the odds are stacked up against the drivers not suffering fatigue.
Having let my siblings go on the trip despite the potential extra risk factors I will agree with WP that 'no night driving' would reduce those risk factors. That would of course increase costs and/or reduce resort time.
Having said all that I do subscribe to the the balance of probability theory and hope they have a safe journey home. Regular updates have indicated they have had a good week.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 25 Feb 12 at 01:53
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Many many years ago my ski club used to use coach travel from the north of England to get to the French ski slopes. Departing late friday afternoon we would cross the channel around midnight, then stop in the early hours to convert the seats into bunk beds. The drivers would change over without stopping, lord knows how, but I saw it with my own eyes. Now that was dangerous. More so for the few people travelling in the 'hold' with the skis & baggage. I kid not, but this was the mid 70's.
H & S . you've got to be kidding.
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It's called cruise control legacy lad.
Pat
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>> But what is the 'driving through the night coach problem'?
...erm...the periodic crashes where people are injured and/or sometimes die when drivers are too fatigued to stay awake?
...the one where some think if the numbers are low enough, it is o.k. to completely ignore...even if our most precious cargo is on them
...that one.
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Oh yes that early morning 'wall' of night driving, serious stuff that.
Years ago when i used to drive full night shifts the best way to overcome that wall was higher speed, the buzz and alertness required to keep control and to watch out for all normal hazards, especially police patrols kept you wide awake and fully alert, no chance of going into auto pilot leading to drowsiness.
The blanket use of speed limiters on commercials and coaches has had an opposite effect on safety IMO, sit on limiter, especially using cruise...which should not be fitted to such vehicles has led to robotised just sit there driving standards not requiring skill or judgement or heightened attention, not even a gear to change, no judgements to make not even a route to find, just steer.
I could not drive a full night shift again past about 3am, far too boring especially trying to stick to some moronic 40mph blanket limit.
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Quite so GB. Much easier to maintain concentration levels when driving, um...purposefully, than when bumbling along.
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>> Quite so GB. Much easier to maintain concentration levels when driving, um...purposefully, than when bumbling
>> along.
>>
+1
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-1
Tired is tired, that tiredness will dull your reactions whatever speed you are driving.
Reminds me of the twonks who think they drive better after a couple of pints.
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I feel less prone to tiredness on the bike - not ridden great lengthy journeys in the dark for years, but have had lengthy daytime rides - Most recent was south of Bolounge to N Wales in 2010 - Adrenaline on a bike keeps you focused. Drove from Calais home in October - no tiredness issues. Comfort balance is the main issue.
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>> ...erm...the periodic crashes where people are injured and/or sometimes die when drivers are too fatigued
>> to stay awake?
>>
>> ...the one where some think if the numbers are low enough, it is o.k. to
>> completely ignore...even if our most precious cargo is on them
>>
>> ...that one.
I cannot immediately recall the last accident, at home or abroad, that was down to a driver dropping off. Obviously it's happened and it will happen again. The risk is identified and managed down by processes such as mandated stops, double manning tachos etc.
And that's what every business does. Identify the risks and apply mitigating processes until they're acceptable (to the insurers* and the punters). When the numbers are low enough you monitor and apply further changes in light of experiences, near misses etc.
Somebody said these trips used to be done by air. Flying is cheaper in real terms than it has ever been yet these trips overwhelmingly go by coach. One reason might be that coaches were still needed to get kids from airport to resort and that foreign coaches failed the risk tests - overloaded, unreliable driven dangerously etc.
* the canary in the mine is the insurer. If it's at all risky cover won't be there.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 25 Feb 12 at 12:08
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One night shift and ready to go off -very tired, got a shout re an artic that had come off the A180 eastbound.
Sure enough it had gone down the embankment. Driver had driven from Scotland and had nodded off at the wheel within 8 miles of destination. He was shaken but not stirred. Left it to Earlies to clear up.
3 or 4 years later I was contacted by a colleague re the incident. The driver had done the self and same thing within 4 miles of the first incident, this time on a slip road where the trailer had ended up greasy side facing the traffic and a car had run into it killing the driver
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 25 Feb 12 at 12:20
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>>I cannot immediately recall the last accident, at home or abroad, that was down to a driver dropping off.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8197222/Motorway-coach-crash-injures-17-in-Oxfordshire.html
A response from the above
"That junction is a fast left slip-road leading to a very sudden sharp right handed bend, whilst suddenly coming to the stop at the Tee Junction ( look at J7 M40 google).
They will say drivers fault but it`s an accident waiting to happen, at night, with the slightest of lapse of concentration."
IIRC correctly the coach was due to take the next exit (which is a very fast exit and about half a mile ahead.
I have no idea of the outcome but loss of concentration and exiting at the earlier junction at speed would almost certainly ensure a crash.
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Here's one
www.wigantoday.net/news/local-news/horror_scene_on_m6_1_4129708
I can provide links to many more but they will fall on deaf ears.
Thinking that being double manned means one driver is resting while the other is driving just means the BOTH drivers have been awake for 22 hours as opposed to single manned which is 15 hours.
There are very few lorry drivers who would travel long distances on a coach.
Pat
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>>There are very few lorry drivers who would travel long distances on a coach.
They're so overpaid they can afford not to Patsy.
;>)
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Overpaid??? I earn more doing a days training than I earned in a week being a lorry driver;)
Pat
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Pat,
I think the supposedly deaf ears are mine and Zed's.
Nobody's saying people don't fall asleep at the wheel from time to time. In the incident you've linked the cause was a truck and the victims were in a car. But the subject in this thread is coaches and particularly coaches full of kids going abroad. No coach was involved in that incident; it highlights the fact that any danger is a general one.
I'm still not seeing anything that tells me I ought to be worried about my offspring (who are no longer really kids) travelling on overnight coaches.
When Miss Bromp went to Ecuador they were prohibited from travel in darkness - but that was in a country where many roads are dirt tracks and driving standards way below those in Western Europe. Even then they ended up moving well into twilight because the alternative of stopping was worse than carrying on.
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'Manned'. Should that not be staffed or crewed ;-]]
Anyway junior Fullchats have set off on the return leg. Should hit Reims err about 03.00. Fingers crossed. I've told the to sing to the driver that should keep them awake.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 25 Feb 12 at 19:00
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>> You could easily resolve one element of a known problem...the 'driving through the night coach
>> problem'. As statistically small as it is, you could quite easily eradicate it. Why not
>> do that?
It's your choice of course. But I have to weigh in with Zero. It's comparatively very safe. Yes, you can eradicate that small risk but it's a disproportionate response. You could eliminate the risk of being killed or injured on the way to school by home educating, you could stop your child playing rugby, rock climbing, cycling, etc but sensibly you probably won't.
Mine have variously surfed, rock-climbed, mountaineered (Cairngorms in winter with crampons and ice axe and avalanche warnings, which they heeded), skied, snowboarded, back packed in central America, trekked up Kilimanjaro, etc. etc., all of which are probably more risky than travelling in a coach.
Yes I worried a bit - did I even think about stopping them? Not really. Did I counsel them to consider risks and make themselves as safe as possible while they were doing these things? Yes. "take risks safely" was usually my advice. In a coach or plane that means keep your seat belt on.
I genuinely think that if you trust them and support them in following their interests, they will be more likely to listen to your advice and keep themselves safer overall. There are lots of ways that children can put themselves in danger, especially when they rebel against excessively controlling parents.
Maybe I've been lucky, but an older friend told me when my children were small that I would have a more enduring influence on them if I supported their interests rather than stifled them. It seems to have worked so far! (they are 25 & 30).
I'll give you an example. Neither of my children drinks much, they've both been advised that it's an expensive habit and done to excess is an easy way to look stupid and get into trouble. But both were allowed to drink at home, at meal times, from the time they expressed an interest (about 12). I can remember what I said when Girl asked if she could have a glass of wine. It was basically that too much alcohol isn't really very good for young people, but of course she could have half a glass in case she didn't like it, and if she did she could have a bit more. She said she liked it but didn't finish the half glass - her choice, not mine! She was offered it at weekends after that and usually declined. Far better than laying down a prohibition and having them joining the kids drinking cider behind the village hall, and having a row about it.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 25 Feb 12 at 19:48
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What I meant to add was that they will effectively be out of your control a lot of the time from quite a young age. Better than they are equipped to think about risk and look after themselves, and being allowed some freedom with the right counsel and guidance, and some responsibility given to them, is a good way to do that.
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Wise words, Manatee. I hope I can remember them when the Beestlings get to that stage, as they soon will. I incline to the view that any reasonably conscientious parent can keep a child safe; the hard part is knowing how and when to let them do things for and by themselves.
I think we're still waiting to see the result of the current generation of children, roughly the age of mine, that has been chauffeured to nursery and everywhere else - outsourced, in effect. Ours have seen enough of this treatment - mercifully in small doses - to show us how safety-first and risk-averse the providers are. I honestly don't know how well the products of this system will cope when they have to make decisions for themselves.
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This has evolved in to something else.
I agree with everything Manatee has said.
Substitute kids for a loved relative. I'd advise mine not to travel on an overnight coach journey with a potentially dog tired driver.
I used the kids example, as I have a direct say on what they do/do not do and can therefore dictate that they won't be going on that overnight coach.
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>> This has evolved in to something else.
>>
>> I agree with everything Manatee has said.
And so do I. Been through the school trips scenario and the lad is now into concerts and festivals.
Being driven by their friends has probably been the biggest worry of mine.
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>> Being driven by their friends has probably been the biggest worry of mine.
>>
Quite agree.
Still wouldn't stop me chopping out the continental overnight coach trips though (until they wise up and change the system)....it's an easy gain.
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Well they are back safe and sound. Apparantly the drivers were pushing on and caught an earlier ferry.
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>> Well they are back safe and sound. Apparantly the drivers were pushing on and caught
>> an earlier ferry.
Glad to hear it
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Coach Accident - France - Boxsterboy
