If there are two lanes returning to one lane just after coming off a roundabout, and the outer of those two lanes then closes so traffic has to return to the inner lane, who has priority?
Bit difficult to show as google maps has a picture of the road while roadworks were being carried out a couple of years ago. The hatched lines are no longer there and there is now another lane that extends to approx midway along the triangular verge before closing back to the inner lane. IMHO, the other lane isn't long enough to allow traffic to merge without having to barge in.
tinyurl.com/6uslzqr - google maps
My opinion is that traffic in the inner lane has priority as traffic in the outer lane has to merge back into the inner lane.
I hate this particular roundabout as it's an accident waiting to happen (probably has already been a few), just been fortunate so far that it's not me. That almost changed on Sunday though as some silly cow in a Corsa tried to barge her way into the inner lane until she realised I wasn't going to let her. Loads of hand gestures could be seen in my rear view mirror, along with a car horn that resembled Noddy's car. I must be getting old as a few years ago I might have bitten and stopped to ask what her problem was.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Feb 12 at 00:49
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Vehicles in the outside lane may be considered in the same way as overtaking vehicles I imagine.
= they have priority if they are in front of you.
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No-one has priority and vehicles should zip merge politely.
Pat
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>> No-one has priority and vehicles should zip merge politely.
>>
>> Pat
>>
+1
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>> Vehicles in the outside lane may be considered in the same way as overtaking vehicles
>> I imagine.
>>
>> = they have priority if they are in front of you.
>>
= put your foot down and get in front, then barge across.
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>> Bit difficult to show as google maps has a picture of the road while roadworks were being carried out a couple of years ago. >>
Does this show as it is now?
g.co/maps/at9ky
Here are three examples near Heathrow, one where there are no markings, one where the merge arrow is shown, and one where the merge lanes have been swapped and you can see a faded merge arrow from the obsolete system, as well as the new arrow for the current system.
g.co/maps/ubnhv
g.co/maps/njqfd
g.co/maps/e8e4n
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>> Does this show as it is now?
>> g.co/maps/at9ky
Yes, although at ground level the outer lane run off is much shorter than the aerial view shows.
To clarify, the Corsa driver was initially behind me in the outer lane, then accelerated to try and get by me and barge her way in. But there have been other instances where cars have been side by side and those in the outer lane seem to expect priority.
As for merging in turn, the outer lane really isn't long enough to allow this. As soon as you're off the roundabout the two lanes narrow back into one.
Talking of polite signs asking "merge in turn", no one took a blind bit of notice on the A4142 (Eastern by-pass road) between the Littlemore roundabout and Sainsbury's during roadworks. g.co/maps/tazqn
Lorries and cars alike drove down the middle of the road right from the Littlemore roundabout to prevent people 'pushing in' as the road narrowed to one lane when you approached the Sainsbury's roundabout.
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There's a roundabout on the way into bracknell which used to cause loads of congestion as the two lanes merged into one. Everybody had an opinion on the right method.
A sign was put up 'merge in turn' and the traffic instantly flowed much smoother, as everybody followed a common set of rules.
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I concur with Falstaff, who said:"The better part of valour is discretion; in the which better part I have saved my life.'"
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Tigger's right - a 'merge in turn' sign solves everything. It shouldn't be necessary - that's what the Highway Code tells us to do - but sadly without it you get the 'me first' attitude that brings everything to a halt.
Perhaps it's what we need on motorway entry sliproads, which should also work as zips, just at a higher speed.
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Another one here which, in an urban situation, tends to be approached at slow speed.
g.co/maps/np3nb (Weedon Road Northampton).
Would suggest that technically the nearside lane has priority over the dissapearing outer but in practice vast majority zip merge without complaint.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 22 Feb 12 at 10:18
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"Perhaps it's what we need on motorway entry sliproads, which should also work as zips, just at a higher speed."
Traffic on the motorway has the priority. It's not really the same situation.
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Vehicles in the outside lane may be considered in the same way as overtaking vehicles I imagine.
I don't think so. The HC makes a distinction - although often not an explicit one - between free-flowing traffic, where the principle of overtaking applies, and congestion, where all lanes are in use, where you may legitimately keep up with your own lane, even if it's moving faster than the one to your right, and merge in turn if it comes to an end.
I think that principle even works in the motorway joining case. When there's space to spare, the dotted line is a Give Way and you cross it without inconveniencing anyone already on the carriageway. When it's busy, it's up to both lanes to create the zip by leaving a gap, and then for each merging driver to aim for the front of the gap so as not to force anyone in lane 1 to slow down. It's a beautiful sight when done well; sadly also a rare one.
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>> tried to barge her way into the inner lane until she realised I wasn't going to let her
I used to not let queue jumpers barge in too, until one day a guy in a Mercedes just kept going and drove into my front wing and door anyway.
>> might have bitten and stopped to ask what her problem was
The Merc driver got out of his car and expressed some very frank views to me, before getting back in and driving off.
MY insurance paid out for the damage to HIS car.
I always let 'em in quietly now.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Wed 22 Feb 12 at 10:41
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No, no, no. You are all wrong.
Whoever owns the oldest, most clapped out car always has priority.
;-)
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Pat is right of course. People should zip merge intelligently. But it's always a bit fraught because those in the nearside lane, the one that doesn't end, often feel that those in the outside lane are queue jumping or trying to take advantage.
It's worth remembering that damage to your pride or time schedule are a lot less inconvenient and expensive than damage to your car or someone else's.
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>> those in the nearside lane, the one that doesn't end, often feel that
>> those in the outside lane are queue jumping or trying to take advantage.
>>
Which of course they are.
As in supermarkets, the trick is to make a rapid assessment of which queue seems to be moving fastest, roar up the empty lane, and then practice some very polite zip-merging.
You can ignore being polite to all the others in the queue - it's only the one at the front that matters.
:)
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>> Which of course they are.
No. They're just in the outside lane, which has now come to an end. And they are now faced with trying to zip merge with other cars that may be driven by resentful PITA mimsers.
Those in the n/s lane, calm relaxed types who perhaps knew that the outside lane was going to end, have to give way to pushy eager beavers doing everything they can to get ahead.
If you let one of these in and he/she then mimses offensively and gets seriously in the way, your rage can become murderous. Often happens to me actually, you let someone in because they seem to be in a hurry and they then insult you with a stately, pathetic driving style in their horrid little cars. You really do want to drag them out and kick their bums.
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If there is more than one lane and the planners have bothered to put them there, then they are there for a reason and there's no problem in someone using them.
When you have to merge, you should zip merge in turn.
The problems that arise are:
1, The British sense of decorum about politely queueing, which is often a good thing .. becomes confused.. with some 'orderly' types who stay in lane 1 who resent the 'making progress' types who tend to go for lane 2....and the former decide no one is going to 'gain an advantage' and then cause hold ups at the zip merge...which slows everyone down.
2, Those who use lane 2 to try to barge past and go beyond 'making progress' to being plain rude and ignorant... and they then cause conflict.
It shouldn't be difficult..but often is.
The Police teach you to use the most empty lane, then be polite at the end.
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I was writing ironically, putting myself into the position of an aggressive outer-laner.
I agree, if there are spare lanes, use them, and make progress. But the example given originally was of exiting from a roundabout where clearly the two lanes are rapidly condensed into one.
Some people will deliberately pull out into a closing lane in order to make a rapid overtake and then barge back into the inner lane. Is that considered good "making progress, using all the available lanes" practice? And if someone has done that in order to gain 100 yards, should he then be conceded the same polite zip-merging reponse as someone who in different circumstances has simply been in a long lane that is now merging?
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>> Some people will deliberately pull out into a closing lane in order to make
>> a rapid overtake and then barge back into the inner lane. Is that considered good
>> "making progress, using all the available lanes" practice? And if someone has done that in
>> order to gain 100 yards, should he then be conceded the same polite zip-merging reponse
>> as someone who in different circumstances has simply been in a long lane that is
>> now merging?
>>
Not really, although 100 yards is probably a bit long for this example, as the road planners might have wanted to take queueing traffic off the roundabout...so that 100 yard drive in the o/s lane might be acceptable.
A really short lane does beg the question...why?...but having said that it's presumably there for a reason.
I think a rude dive in to a lane and carve someone up to gain advantage is a no-no...but...if someone is driving slower than you are or intend to...then a quick surge in another lane is perfectly acceptable. It depends on the circs, space, traffic density, etc.
As ever there are ways to 'get it right' and plenty of ways to 'get it wrong'.
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>>And if someone has done that inorder to gain 100 yards, should he then be conceded the same polite zip-merging reponse<<
I think he should. He is obviously far more important than you, and is in a hurry.
:)
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>> >>And if someone has done that inorder to gain 100 yards, should he then be
>> conceded the same polite zip-merging reponse<<
>>
>> I think he should. He is obviously far more important than you, and is in
>> a hurry.
>> :)
Has anyone seen Steel Spark recently?
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>> I used to not let queue jumpers barge in too, until one day a guy
>> in a Mercedes just kept going and drove into my front wing and door anyway.
>>
A Porsche driver was blocking me out at a merge near us so I just drove slowly towards the side of his car - that made him move pretty quickly, which then left a nice space behind him to drop in to!
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Willdebeest - the motorway slip road is 'give way' and nothing else. Up to the joining vehicles to merge. Common sense and good manners dictates that when its very congested, merging in turn would seem to apply. But it's still a 'give way' requirement in the event of a joining vehicle trying to force it's way in. As the driver of a brand new Audi TT found to his cost when he tried to force me over at walking pace. Everyone else had been doing turn by turn except this 'man'. Dreadful mess to the side of his TT after we scraped together quite nicely. Barely noticeable on the old hack of a Citroen ZX....
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I always allow zip merging and in turn expect to be allowed it. You get the odd person who objects and stares straight ahead with that "I'm not going to look at you" glaikit expression on their usually slack jawed face. I don't really mind that either. Glad to have brightened what must have been an otherwise dull and bitter day for them.
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Wed 22 Feb 12 at 17:59
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The Highway Code (paras 133 and 134) seems to suggest merging in turn, when safe and convenient to do so.
www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070308
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Successful tactical resolution then Woodster ? :-]
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Well I enjoyed the outcome!
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There are no rules. Every man for himself, and the Devil take the hindmost.
:-D
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 23 Feb 12 at 08:26
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I think in future I'll straddle both lanes of this roundabout exit to prevent the likes of Miss chav in her Corsa and others from attempting to overtake and barge their way in front.
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Sometimes I wish I cared as much as that.
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When I drive my Landcruiser people always seem to let me go first. But its a different story when I drive the MX-5 because people seem to think I should be giving way to them
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...When I drive my Landcruiser people always seem to let me go first...
I noticed the same thing when I drove a Transit pick-up around London for a job I had for a few months.
It was easier to make progress in the Transit than it was in the MG Metro I drove at the time.
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Who has priority? - Lygonos
