I've expended - and caused others to expend - a fair amount of electric ink on my search for a family estate car, but I feel the time is coming to move towards a decision. This thread isn't intended to cover the merits of the cars themselves, but to discuss the forces at work in the market for moderately new cars and what represents value for (my) money.
Quick review of the shortlist and my view of their strengths and weaknesses:
Volvo V70 Long-time front-runner, mainly because I've been so pleased with the long-distance capabilities of my old S60, and the V70 feels reassuringly similar. New D3 engine is pleasingly punchy and fuel-efficient, even as an (almost obligatory) automatic, and has the five-cylinder warble I've come to enjoy. Only serious concern is rear-seat legroom, which may limit its long-term usefulness as the Beestlings become teenagers.
Skoda Superb Answers the space question emphatically and doesn't disgrace itself anywhere, even with a VW four-pot diesel aboard. Only contender with a fully viable manual option, with both a left footrest and a conventional handbrake, and this may yet carry the day with Mrs Beest. Best of the bunch on fuel costs and (probably) insurance too.
Mercedes E220CDI My budget will buy one of the last S211 models from 2009. Haven't driven one yet but will remedy that very soon. Seems very promising on space, solidity, comfort and ambience. Concerns linger about high running costs - owners on the MB forum report anything from 50 down to 32 mpg. E280CDIs sell for very little more, but can't possibly be cheaper to own.
If we limit it to those three (and exclude the Audi A6, which I've not even sat in yet, and is probably too jiggly for my taste) then it's a question of what my budget will buy.
Volvo There are ex-Volvo lease V70s everywhere, mostly in boring colours, but I looked at a nice one yesterday that was lifted by a paler leather interior. £18,000 gets you an enormous choice of D3 SEs around a year old, and there must be scope to negotiate that down a bit more.
Mercedes Again, plenty around if the Avantgarde model suits you (I think it does me). £18,000 gets you in among the late 58s and 09s up to about the 40,000 mile mark, which should mean there's scope to play one dealer off against another.
Skoda Ought to be the value-for-money option, right? Bit of a shock: year-old Elegance diesels go (or are advertised, anyway) for V70 money - and more. One dealer has one that is fully two years old and wants nearly 20 large (as they say on The Sopranos) for it. Scarcity may play a part here, but would you choose a 12-month-old Superb over an 18-month-old A6 at the same price?
I think I'd be happy with any of the three, even in the boring colours that seem hard to avoid. I appreciate that large cars are unfashionable these days, but we can't really help needing one to accommodate eight long legs, and I feel it should be a buyer's market. But next to the other two, and for what you get, the asking prices for Superbs seem absurdly high. Any thoughts on what's going on here, and where the real value lies?
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Ok, my tuppence.
Go for a Volvo. If it's a long term car they just age better. Can't quantify that. It's just a feeling/impression. And you like Volvos so you'll never feel you made the wrong choice. You can turn up anywhere in a Volvo and not be judged for it. ( Except maybe a biker's rally I suppose )
Second choice, the Merc. Proper car that but might start to irritate you in time. Parts and so on.
Third choice the Skoda. Can't fault it but you'd never feel you'd really treated yourself. Again, can't quantify that.
I love my Merc but I'm not sure I'd buy one with my own money. I'd probably go for a V70 or a Mondeo to be truthful.
Hope whatever you get is pleasing, probably wouldn't go too far wrong with any of your short list.
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Actually I'll (rather unhelpfully) qualify that even further, if it was my money, I'd spend 10 or 12 grand on a really fit, well equipped, mildly second hand Mondeo estate and keep the change...
But it's not my money so go for the V70 !
:-)
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}:---)
I know you would, Humph. We'd all fit in a Mondeo, but there'd be an intensified version of the didn't-treat-ourselves feeling, and if we want that we can save even more money by keeping the competent, reliable but unlovable Verso.
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Apologies if i upset anyone but isn't the Volvo V70 and S80 based on the same shared platform that underpins the current Mondeo, S-MAX and Galaxy.... so you're after a Mondeo after all :-)
And so are the Freelander and Evoque come to that. And the XC60, XC70, S60 and V70.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 8 Mar 12 at 23:01
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What mileage are you covering?
The 1.8 turbo petrol in the Superb is a good number, and last I looked the petrol engined 'perbs were on a 'VAT-free' promotion while the diseasels were not.
Drivethedeal.com are selling brand-new Elegance 1.8 Estates for 19.7k - add metallic, space-saver instead of gunk, and a retracible parcel shelf it comes to £20.2k (£21.2k for a DSG version rather than 6-spd manual).
First owner.
If you're not doing 15+ thou a year I'd go for that.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 8 Mar 12 at 23:10
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IS WDB going for new or second hand. I'd assumed the latter.
Out of that list I'd probably say Mondeo as well ;-) I mean Volvo V70. But the Superb (in estate form) is a good car.
I ruled it out when choosing my last car because (a) my wife didn't like them - but I could have still got one... even the uglier Octavia but more importantly (b) emissions are higher than what I choose so for an Elegance Superb Estate I'd pay more than I do for my VW CC.
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I'd wait for a later full fat 215 D5 Volvo with lower emissions. The 205 with its emissions appears to have been a bit of a stop gap, so unless very cheap would avoid as would I the diet D3.
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You can turn up anywhere in a Volvo and not be judged for it
WDB - Just read the remarks Humph made about me and our V5 D4 in our thread :-) Harris Tweed, Fish spring to mind.
Seriously this 5 cylinder is a cracking motor !
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You won't upset me, RTJ - and I know you were teasing me - but it does miss the point to say that because the V70 and the Mondeo share a few important but invisible components that makes them effectively the same. For a start, the D3 engine is all-Volvo, as is the interior. And my old Volvo has no Ford parts, but the new V70 is recognizably similar in character: no pretence to be a sports car but taut enough to be manageable while still soft enough to be comfortable. In fact, if I closed my eyes...
...I'd probably drive into something.
Back to value for money. I wouldn't rule out a petrol Superb, but the calculation isn't about miles per annum so much as cost over the car's life with us. I'm looking for something that'll last us five years and probably 55-65,000 miles. That's about £10,500 in fuel for a 36mpg petrol car and £8,700 for a 45mpg diesel, at today's prices. (And even as the prices increase, the differential probably won't.) There's also the consideration that the diesel will sell for more after that time. And filling stations are a bore; I've come to appreciate the range of a diesel with a 70-litre tank.
I've more less decided to buy used because these cars lose a lot of value but not a lot of shine in their first year. (The Mercedes takes longer but should last longer too.) I will look into DtD's offers, though, so thanks to Lygonos for that.
As for judgments, people have had ten years to judge me based on my Volvo, so if it was going to happen, it already has.
Last question, and one where I could benefit from the panel's experience. How far do you think I can push a salesman who dropped the sticker price by a thousand without being asked, but has yet to improve on his bare-minimum trade-in value for the Verso or to offer to throw is the detachable towbar we need?
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Oh I'm a Volvo convert WDB ! I love that 5 cyl engine - the salesman said they even do a petrol one !
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...You can turn up anywhere in a Volvo and not be judged for it...
Painter and decorator, antiques dealer, TV aerial man.
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>> WDB - Just read the remarks Humph made about me and our V5 D4 in our thread :-) Harris Tweed, Fish spring to mind.
Yeah but that's a V50. Bit happy clappy Scout master really, know what I mean....Nuff said...
I'm sure it's very nice.
"If had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning..."
I'll go and do some work now I think...
:-))
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Iffy, we won't all fit in a mass-market convertible. Pity, because no-one jumps to any conclusions about a middle-aged man in one of those, do they?
}:---P
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...Lounge Lizard...
Haven't the time, looks like the salon's going to be busy today.
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I'm quietly envious of anyone who has enough hair left to be worth dyeing. Couldn't be doing with all that fake tan malarkey, though.
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>> You can turn up anywhere in a Volvo and not be judged for it
>>
What judgements do people make when you turn up in other cars?
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Well, let's toss out a few examples for the panel to play with:
- Range Rover Sport
- Mitsubishi L200 Warrior
- Subaru Impreza with enormous rear wing
- Suzuki Cappuccino
- anything by
DaewooChevrolet
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As you like the V70 is the V60 out of the question ? I know its a tad smaller for load lugging so that may rule it out.
I am slightly biased as I've ordered one to replace the C5 with, but thee are some very good deals to be had. Clearly it isnt selling to well, but I think that's more because it doesn't appeal to the traditional volvo buyer, and A4 / C class / 3 series buyer wont considier the volvo as an equivalent choice
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>> Well, let's toss out a few examples for the panel to play with:
>>
>> - Range Rover Sport
Chav / WAG
>> - Mitsubishi L200 Warrior
Builder
>> - Subaru Impreza with enormous rear wing
Old enough to know better
>> - Suzuki Cappuccino
Hairdresser
>> - anything by
DaewooChevrolet
treats cars like white goods
>>
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>>>V60... I am slightly biased as I've ordered one to replace the C5 with..
Just fancied a change or decided the C5 was lacking this time round mikey?
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 9 Mar 12 at 17:48
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As you like the V70 is the V60 out of the question ?
Yes. Even the V70 is a bit tight for room in the back, which is the one thing that may yet rule it out. We've clambered in a V60 and it's simply too small inside for a long-legged family. Ironically, perhaps, if a V60 had been available in 2002, I'd have signed up in a flash - but then the Beestlings were a toddler and an embryo; they're a bit bigger now.
Newsflash: we're going car shopping tomorrow. There's an E220 in Basingstoke we can try, then back for another look at the V70 in Maidenhead. Not planning to do a deal but you never know.
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>> >>>V60... I am slightly biased as I've ordered one to replace the C5 with..
>>
>> Just fancied a change or decided the C5 was lacking this time round mikey?
>>
I would have replaced the C5 with another if the lease prices had not changed so much, but it would cost me about £130 a month more just to replace like with like - the budget wont stretch that far :)
The Chinese dragon offered me a V60 for ever so slightly less than I pay today, although its an 18 month deal, so just 1 service to pay for and no new tyres during the term.
Its the DRIVe 1.6 model so I "think" its a PSA unit - possibly the same as in the C5, and its in R Design spec. I'm braced for the firmer suspension, and quite looking forward to having something a bit more ostentatious.
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"....But next to the other two, and for what you get, the asking prices for Superbs seem absurdly high. Any thoughts on what's going on here, and where the real value lies?"
I think this is because the Superb estate has only been out for a couple of years; owners are happy and so there aren't many on the market. It also looks, to my eyes at least, much better than the Superb hatch which I would think depreciates much faster.
If a Superb doesn't feel special enough, and an Audi does, think about the A6 Avant SE which has softer suspension and smaller wheels than the S-line (and is cheaper). Lots of room for growing Beests in the back too. There's an Audi garage on the right on the A33 just before you get into B'stoke, so you could look in there on the way to/from seeing the German taxi.
Last edited by: Avant on Fri 9 Mar 12 at 23:11
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>> Superb estate..... It also looks, to my eyes at least, much better than the Superb hatch
I agree.
Also agree about an A6 Avant SE. Wit the new A6 prices should reflect there being a newer model.
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Thanks, chaps, as always for the comments and suggestions. Now for a quick update on my day out with the family.
Well, that was interesting - and surprising. First call was the MB dealer in Basingstoke, where we drove an 09 grey E220 Avantgarde that is so new in that it still has some dust and fluff inside. Not a problem - 36,000 miles had evidently not left the car in such a state that only an expert tarter-upper (begging Stu's pardon) could make it presentable for sale.
Then we had another go in the V70 D3 I drove on Wednesday. I was half thinking we'd end the day with a deal, but I'm jumping ahead.
It was the first time for both of us to drive any Mercedes, so we asked lots of questions about the peculiarities of its transmission and parking brake. We were escorted by a salesman, which gave us an opportunity to prove that yes, one adult and two children will fit in the back, even if the adult is me.
I was concerned that the four-cylinder diesel engine might sound like - well, a four-pot diesel, but the truth is that with the doors closed it barely sounds at all. Even when stirred it sounds merely purposeful, much nicer than the similar-size four in the Verso. Significantly, I didn't try out the autobox's manual options because it seemed to be making the right choices for itself. More on this later.
Seats are firm but very well shaped; no problem getting comfortable with the electric adjusters for height, tilt and rake - but oddly not reach - and a steering wheel that pulls back far enough not to be too far away. Black leather upholstery felt coarse by Swedish standards but evidently wears well. Good view out, too, although three heads and restraints in the back blocked that view a little.
In short, very impressed. Smart-looking car that is easier to drive than 4850mm and 1855kg might suggest, and certainly answers the 'sense of occasion' question I've been pondering since becoming dissatisfied with the Verso.
On to Maidenhead and the V70. Only Mrs Beest drove this one, to get acquainted with it in automatic form. It didn't go well. I've noted in my threads here that the Volvo automatic tends to change up too far too soon, then get flustered and have to change down when asked to accelerate. I'm happy to drive around this using the manual shift option - locking it to 3rd in town, say, or 4th on a country road. Mrs B wasn't having this and took such a strong dislike to the car that I fear it may be off our list for good.
She also found the steering close to unmanageable at times. It does feel vague and overlight around the straight-ahead position, and at times on a twisty uphill stretch she was having real trouble getting the car to go where she wanted it.
The good Volvo points were grudgingly acknowledged - the cabin design and materials are nicer than the E220's, the seats are as comfortable as ever and the Beestlings liked the built-in boosters, even if they no longer strictly need them. But I don't think it's going to be enough.
So, in my search for a nearly-new, front-wheel-drive family car, a three-year-old rear-driver seems to have appeared at the top of the list. I've suspected that the E220 might be more objectively capable than the V70; I wasn't quite ready for it to be as subjectively likeable too. Crikey - who'd have thought that!
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Glad to hear you liked the Merc WDB. Thought you would. Almost certainly would please you if you bought it or a similar one.
One thought to lob in though. It's the "old" model. Doesn't matter a damn right now but if you do buy one and keep it 5 years or so it'll have become the "very old" model if you see what I mean? Again doesn't matter a jot while you have it if it's a good one but it might be a worse depreciator than you'd hoped as a result.
Here's a curved ball, on your budget you're not miles away from the latest version. Plan D or whatever it would become could be...wait a year, they'll come down a bit, put a wee bit more in the piggy bank and go for a newer one?
Sorry ! That's not the right answer is it?
:-)
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>> Glad to hear you liked the Merc WDB. Thought you would. Almost certainly would please
>> you if you bought it or a similar one.
>>
>> One thought to lob in though. It's the "old" model.
Yeah, but it has had the problems ironed out.
A late old model is almost always better than an early new model.
Plus its a better looker.......
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Oh I get it now, that's what they mean by a "cougar" isn't it?
:-)
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Yes, I would go for the late 211 over an early 212 too. I just can't get on with those silly rear wheel arches. Friends have a 212 E220CDI SE estate, and it seems plainer inside than my 211 Avantgarde was.
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>> Yes, I would go for the late 211 over an early 212 too. I just
>> can't get on with those silly rear wheel arches. Friends have a 212 E220CDI SE
>> estate, and it seems plainer inside than my 211 Avantgarde was.
>>
Like all current Merc's they are over styled.
The new B class is a real looker, and so much better put together than the old one.
IMO 2 things spoil it though.
The 2 swage lines (that is a current Merc theme) just do not work together, and the stupid way the audio display panel is mounted on the dash - it looks like someone has stuck an ipad to the dash using bluetac.
Both spoil a damn good car.
www.carmagazine.co.uk/upload/26477/images/4new2012MercedesB-classinterior.jpg
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sat 10 Mar 12 at 21:56
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A late old model is almost always better than an early new model.
Yes, that's our reasoning too - that and the less fiscally prudent idea that we'd really like something more comfortable than the Verso for our trip to France this summer. and only E200 CGI petrol models come close to being reachable (for cash, at least) this year.
An overdue nod to Avant for the A6 suggestion. There wasn't time to call at Colborne's today, but now the V70 is (apparently) off the table I want to try one even if it only convinces me it's not for us. There seem to be 59 and 10 2.0 TDI SEs within our budget.
Other thing is to look for options to realize more for the Verso than the £7,250 bare minimum book value we've been offered so far. Wondering about offering it to the Lister Group we bought it from, which would put it on a forecourt as a 'supplied and serviced by ourselves' at £9,500, like this one that has done more miles than ours and seems not to have our iPod interface or detachable towbar.
listers.co.uk/Used/Cars/Toyota/Verso/Corolla__Diesel_2.2_D-4D_T3_5dr/105663
Anyone had any luck with this strategy?
Busy day. TIme for bed.
}B---Ozzzzzzzzzzzz
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If the Verso is going to retail for around 9500, I doubt you'll find any dealer offering you much more than 7500 - they are bound to want a gross margin of a couple of grand aren't they?
I wouldn't expect any special treatment from Listers either, unless you're buying a new one from them. I took the X3 back to its supplying dealer a few months ago; their first offer was derisory. Just trying it on I assume. I walked, they phoned back twice with a better trade-in price but I'm not playing that game with them.
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>> An overdue nod to Avant for the A6 suggestion. There wasn't time to call at
>> Colborne's today, but now the V70 is (apparently) off the table I want to try
>> one even if it only convinces me it's not for us. There seem to be
>> 59 and 10 2.0 TDI SEs within our budget.
>>
If you're looking at manuals, beware the offset pedals on manual Audis. That an dthe claustrophobic feel in the rear seats due to the high waist line. Having said that a friend has an A6 Allroad and he loves it (although its only ever him and his mountain bikes in it).
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If you want a comfortable long distance cruiser, the Merc wins against the Audi everytime. Much smoother ride and more comfortable seats.
If you look at automatics, beware of the dreaded CVT (called Multitronic) normally fitted to Audi A6 2.0 TDIs. I had one of these for a while and didn't get on with it. It causes the engine to drone away at higher than expected revs and there is a real elastic band effect to it, together with a periodic shudder from the electronically controlled clutch, especially when the engine is cold.
Oddly a 2.0 Petrol A6 I tried with Multitronic was much better.
An automatic W211 Merc will have either a 5 Speed or 7 Speed torque converter box. Much better suited to Turbodiesels imho.
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>> An automatic W211 Merc will have either a 5 Speed or 7 Speed torque converter
>> box. Much better suited to Turbodiesels imho.
>>
5 speed being the more reliable, 7 speed the smoother.
7 speed control blocks are a nightmare to obtain at the moment.
Oh, lads with the W212's have you had the injector loom mod done yet?
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 10:17
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>> 5 speed being the more reliable, 7 speed the smoother.
>> 7 speed control blocks are a nightmare to obtain at the moment.
>>
I also found the 7-speed (in a 280 CDI) kicked down too readily for a diesel compared to the 5-speed (in a 320 CDI) which (rightly) relied more on the fantastic engine torque. (sorry for all the brackets there ;-) )
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Ok just googled W212. I've got one haven't I ? :-)
Er, no, don't think it has had any mods. Seems to go alright though.
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>> Ok just googled W212. I've got one haven't I ? :-)
>>
>> Er, no, don't think it has had any mods. Seems to go alright though.
>>
If it hasn't had the mod it will go alright.
Until it doesn't.
The mod (on the 4 pot diesels) is an additional loom between the engine loom and injectors, that is designed to stop fuel leaching up the wiring and contaminating sensors and the ECU.
This mod was launched after issues requiring expensive (engine out) engine harness changes.......
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Oh OK, thanks, I'll call the local dealer this week and ask about that.
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>> Oh OK, thanks, I'll call the local dealer this week and ask about that.
>>
Hopefully it will already have been done, but worth asking in case it slips through the net.
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>> the Lister Group we bought it from, which would put it on a forecourt as
>> a 'supplied and serviced by ourselves' at £9,500, like this one that has done more
>> miles than ours and seems not to have our iPod interface or detachable towbar.
>> listers.co.uk/Used/Cars/Toyota/Verso/Corolla__Diesel_2.2_D-4D_T3_5dr/105663
>>
>> Anyone had any luck with this strategy?
>
Yes, many years ago. I had a Rover 218 coupe the one with the targa roof.
When I wanted to get rid a few dealers told me they were hassle and one raised concerns over the vvc engine being unreliable - had been stung before he told me.
There was an ex rover dealer a few miles up the road who had fashioned themselves as a rover specialist - took a quick walk around and offered me £500 more than the best part ex price I had - left it with him there and then, so I figue its worth a punt. Worst they can say is no, or make a crap offer
Last edited by: mikeyb on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 11:08
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I don't usually do this model-code stuff but I've been doing a lot of forum-surfing lately. Isn't Humph's car an S212, and my target an S211? Ws are saloons, and coupés or convertibles seem to be Rs.
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Must try to remember that for pub bore usage... :-)
"Yeah of course I'm driving the S212 at minute y'know..." "Had the loom update last week as a matter of fact...oh sorry, are you off early tonight then?"...
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Just idle curiousity WDB. Is there some reason why a 5 series tourer isn't on the list? Would've thought it was contender at least?
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WdB, apologies for throwing this thought into the mix at this late stage (and it only complicates things)........
It's a shame that your other half has apparently vetoed the Volvo option. You are, it seems, a satisfied Volvo owner, and I wonder how you will feel if you get something else and it gives you trouble in the future.
I can imagine it now, the self-recriminations..."If only I'd stuck with Volvo..."
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Well, Londoner, it's a fair question but I'll admit to misgivings of my own about the V70's vague steering and wayward autobox - although I dislike it less than the DSG in the Superb. More seriously it's the only one of our contenders that won't let me sit behind my own seat, which would limit its usefulness to us to about five years. Probably enough, but I'd also like to carry adults occasionally without having to apologize to the one stuck behind me. So in a way this validates - albeit more emphatically than I was prepared for - some of my own feelings. To turn your argument round, it offers a justification for not sticking with Volvo that I might have found hard to come up with on my own.
Humph, the 5 is not on the list because the current model (F-something? Told you I don't do codes) is out of reach, and the previous model, nice as I've found it to ride in on occasion, has left-hand drive wipers. You'll remember by now that I'm of elongated proportions, so that top corner is more important to me than most, and to have it unswept just won't do. I've sat in the right-hand seat of a Belgian 5 on a wet day and seen the effect for myself; if I lived there I might be quite happy with a 5 but there are limits!
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>> I don't usually do this model-code stuff but I've been doing a lot of forum-surfing
>> lately. Isn't Humph's car an S212, and my target an S211? Ws are saloons, and
>> coupés or convertibles seem to be Rs.
>>
Close...
W = saloon
S = estate
V = long wheelbase saloon
R = roadster
A = cabriolet
C = coupe
X = off roader
Most people, and some from inside Merc, ignore that list and call everything W......
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 22:31
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"If you look at automatics, beware of the dreaded CVT (called Multitronic) normally fitted to Audi A6 2.0 TDIs. I had one of these for a while and didn't get on with it. It causes the engine to drone away at higher than expected revs....... Oddly a 2.0 Petrol A6 I tried with Multitronic was much better."
Indeed, Bagpuss, and after a Mercedes B200CDI I vowed never to have the combination of 4 cylinders + diesel + automatic again (since then I've had a diesel manual and now a petrol DSG, both Octavia vRSs). From Will de B's experience the E-class is clearly better soundproofed than the B: the CR diesel fitted to the A6 2.0 TDI is quiet for a diesel, but no doubt WdB will be listening carefully if he tries an Audi.
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We went from an S60 (D5 manual) to an E220 CDI estate (S211, 56 plate). I dearly loved the qualities and feel you get from a Volvo, but haven't missed them at all in the Merc. The E feels really solid and planted, supremely comfortable but not wallowy. All the kit is great (make sure yours has the COMAND module for sat nav etc), and there's a quality feel to the whole thing. The only thing I'd prefer is the same car with the 280 engine in a dark colour with light leather (we have silver with black). No regrets at all.
Alex.
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Nitty gritty: newish value for money - Runfer D'Hills
