Much as I'm ashamed to admit it a copy of the Sun on Sunday appeared at Fullchat Towers yesterday (hangs head in shame). Front page was dedicated to Frank Lampard's alledgedly Paedo Uncle. However hidden in the depths of the other carp was this:
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4186394/Garage-cams-ID-uninsured-cars.html
Well if Spooks can do it.
When will it all end?
Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 12 Mar 12 at 15:20
|
Worrying if you recall the guy on HJ who was turfed out of his motor, with his family, somewhere up the M6 because 'computer says no'
And I think somewhere in that same discussion it was said that the MID database is only required to be 98% accurate.............
|
"The pump would automatically switch off with an alert flashed to traffic cops".
Yeah, good idea.......in theory.
When they first put an ANPR camera in one busy London Borough, over 10 years ago, with a monitor in the control room....the monitor was the item that was automatically switched off. The ANPR camera went off on so many occasions it became constant, there was never anyone available to react to it and all it did was distract the control operators from their work.
Why, why, why can't these people actually bother to find out what it's like at the coalface?
There may well be some merit in some county forces...but if they're anything like my now local one (Devon and Cornwall) they're getting rid of so many officers, they'll be so few and far between, that won't work either.
Then there's the general traffic police numbers who are fast becoming a rare breed. The average patrolling officer with minimal or no driver training in his/her diesel Focus/Astra 1.6 isn't going to catch many, is he/she?
|
yes but..
if the garage won't serve fuel it should have some effect on the mileage the uninsured cover.
(or more likely an unintended consequence)
|
|
I foresee a further increase in number plate theft and cloning, and young drivers insuring their cars in the name of their unaware grandparents.
|
>> I foresee a further increase in number plate theft and cloning
Hence the tighter ID regulations for buying numberplates that have been in force for a few years now.
I've ground the crossheads out of the numberplate screws on my car, the only way you'll get the plates off now is to snap them off.
|
>> Hence the tighter ID regulations for buying numberplates that have been in force for a
>> few years now.
>>
...... and are as much practical use as a chocolate fireguard. There are any number of manufacturers of "show" plates on Flea-bay for a start, and it takes a sharp eye to spot the difference. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that organised car theft gangs have their own machines for making the plates anyway.
The biggest effect of the number plate laws is to annoy motorcyclists who can no longer have a perfectly legible but slightly smaller plate (I'm not talking about the ridiculously small ones) which doesn't look like an advertising hoarding on the back of the bike.
|
>> ...... and are as much practical use as a chocolate fireguard. There are any number
>> of manufacturers of "show" plates on Flea-bay for a start, and it takes a sharp
>> eye to spot the difference.
Indeed.
The ever increasing number of re-arranged plates are tribute to that.
See one every day that apparently spells the word RIFLE. Apart from the mucked up spacing the leading character is not an R!!
|
There's one near here with TWA 71E. The 7 is made to look like a T...wonder how often he gets a tug !
Ted
|
>> ...... and are as much practical use as a chocolate fireguard. There are any number
>> of manufacturers of "show" plates on Flea-bay for a start, and it takes a sharp
>> eye to spot the difference.
Agreed. I've bought my last two sets of replacement numberplates off Ebay (direct replacements for vehicles I owned at the time, I hasten to add). Nobody asked me at any time for any documentation or proof of ID.
|
>> yes but..
>>
>> if the garage won't serve fuel it should have some effect on the mileage the
>> uninsured cover.
>>
A garage that won't sell fuel will lose the trade to another that will, so what's the point ?
It's like asking a supermarket not to sell food to fatties (like me).
|
>> A garage that won't sell fuel will lose the trade to another that will, so
>> what's the point ?
>> It's like asking a supermarket not to sell food to fatties (like me).
>>
It's nothing like it. Being fat isn't illegal.
|
|
Anything that catches uninsured drivers has got to be good.
|
>> Anything that catches uninsured drivers has got to be good.
Agreed, but the criminal justice system won't properly punish them. Steal £50 of fuel get a £25 fine. Don't pay insurance worth £500 get a £100 fine.
|
The intended consequence is to make the uninsured unable to buy fuel so they'll get insured. Hmmm. What will actually happen is that the uninsured will a) steal fuel, b) fill cans from an insured car or fill insured car and drain fuel from one to another c) use cloned/stolen plates d) find out of the way garages without this technology.
As a consequence innocent motorists will be stopped from buying fuel because the MID is wrong or their plate has been misread.
I await the article in the Daily Wail about some middle class parents with a car full of kids walking home.
Insurance companies don't want to issue certificates either so how would you prove you were insured if the often wrong MID says you aren't insured when you flipping well are?
The chances of actually being caught driving without insurance are practically nil. The driver is insured not the car so it is creating a total farce anyway. You could have a pool of identical cars with all the same plate spread all over under one insurance and this system wouldn't be fooled.
Personally I'd add basic TP insurance to cost of fuel and insist on pay at pump to prevent any kind of drive off. If you can't pay, you can't get fuel. You can get cash cards now which don't link to a bank account so you can easily top them up with folding money so there's no excuse.
|
>> Insurance companies don't want to issue certificates either so how would you prove you were
>> insured if the often wrong MID says you aren't insured ..........
My insurer (Co-operative) gives me a new certificate every time I renew my insurance. Are you saying that some companies don't?
|
Classic problem...reaction...solution.
The problem will be more plate theft and cloning.
The reaction will be that of Sun readers.
The solution will be some sore of awful nationwide secure vehicle tracking system.
These people will surely just fill up jerry cans on foot. A minor inconvenience.
Then we will have a new problem.... fuel thefts, drilled tanks.....
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Wed 14 Mar 12 at 09:52
|
>> My insurer (Co-operative) gives me a new certificate every time I renew my insurance. Are
>> you saying that some companies don't?
Many are online only now.
In any case, a certificate unfortunately proves nothing at the side of the road. One of the methods used by the crooks is to take out a policy on a monthly instalment basis, receive all the paperwork, including the certificate, then cancel the policy / payment immediately. And of course they "forget" to return the paperwork to the insurer. They can then produce a legitimate certificate of insurance when required, but of course the policy it refers to is no longer in effect.
I suspect if you were to be stopped, and you handed over your policy documents to the officer, only for his MID check to say you aren't insured, the officer would immediately suspect you of trying to pull a fast one. I suspect he would trust the MID more than your certificate. If it were to happen within office hours, a simple call to the insurer would resolve the matter, but that's not much use late evening or early morning.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for uninsured drivers, and I hope they all get their cars crushed, but the current MID system is nowhere near accurate enough.
|
>> but the current MID system is nowhere near accurate enough. >>
Here we go again. Is that a myth or a fact.
How accurate is it then?
|
>> Here we go again. Is that a myth or a fact.
>>
>> How accurate is it then?
When we reinsured our Golf in December, it took three days to appear on MID, according to AskMID. We had confirmation from our insurer that it was covered, but no proof whatsoever if we were stopped.
According to this source, www.bjpinsure.com/motor-insurance-database.html the police made over 18,000,000 MID checks in a 9 month period. For argument's sake, let's call it 20,000,000 per year.
If the database is even 99.5% accurate, and that would be no mean achievement, that's 100,000 motorists in a year which run the risk of having their car confiscated through no fault of their own. Do you think that is acceptable?
|
Making a mountain out of a molehill.
Quoted replies below taken from MIB website.
>> we reinsured our Golf in December, it took three days to appear on MID, according to AskMID. We had confirmation from our insurer that it was covered, but no proof whatsoever if we were stopped. >>
If, what if this, what if that, ..... ?
MIB say "What do I do if www.askmid.com says my vehicle is not on the MID?
You need to contact your insurance provider immediately to enquire why there is no MID record. They need to rectify this as quickly as possible to minimise the possibility of you being stopped by the police and questioned about why you appear not to have insurance."
>> For argument's sake, let's call it 20,000,000 per year. >>
MIB say : "The Police are the Motor Insurance Database's (MID) biggest customer, making over 2 million enquiries every month. " and "by the end of 2007 in excess of 150,000 vehicles had been seized and approximately 40% were subsequently sold or destroyed."
>> that's 100,000 motorists in a year which run the risk of having their car confiscated through no fault of their own. >>
no fault of their own? How about taking some responsibility for checking your car on AskMID ?
MIB responses:
"Can the police legally seize my vehicle just because there’s no record of my vehicle on the MID?
No. The police need to satisfy themselves that they have reasonable belief the vehicle is being driven without insurance, and the MID acts as an aid in that judgement."
"Am I in trouble if my vehicle isn’t on the MID?
It is the legal responsibility of your insurance company to ensure your data is loaded to the MID.
But you do need to contact your insurance provider immediately to enquire why there is no MID record. They need to rectify this as quickly as possible to minimise the possibility of you being stopped by the police and questioned about why you appear not to have insurance."
"Under the new system, MIB and the DVLA will work in partnership to identify uninsured vehicles by comparing DVLA vehicle records against those held on the Motor Insurance Database (MID).
The registered keeper will be sent an Insurance Advisory Letter (IAL) telling them that their vehicle appears to be uninsured and warning them that they will be fined unless they take action. If the keeper fails to comply with the advice set out in the letter"
"What happens if the Police need to check my car insurance status after a MID enquiry?
If the police have stopped your vehicle at the roadside and an element of your MID record needs clarifying, or if you only bought your insurance policy recently and the record has not yet been put onto the MID; the police can contact MIB’s dedicated Police Helpline Team or the insurance provider to discuss your insurance.
The Police Helpline was established in 2007 to act as a liaison between police officers and insurance companies to speedily and efficiently resolve insurance status queries at the roadside so as to inconvenience policyholders as little as possible, and to enable police to more easily establish cases where a lack of insurance and seizure of an uninsured vehicle is required.
Either of these two functions will allow the police officer to discuss your insurance details and determine whether you are or are not driving with insurance."
Other FAQs www.mib.org.uk/Motor+Insurance+Database/en/MID+Faqs/
Last edited by: John H on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 12:40
|
Are these rumoured "discussions" and "hopes" corroborated anywhere else?
Never mind, it has resulted in typical grumpy-moaning-old-git reactions in this thread (chiefly excepting L'escargot and AnotherJohnH).
>> because the MID is wrong or their plate has been misread. >>
How often does this happen?
If you are refused fuel because of such a mistake, it will give you a chance to get it sorted with the DVLA and/or MID before the plod catch you on the road and crush your car.
>> often wrong MID says you aren't insured when you flipping well are? >>
I would say "rarely" rather than "often", unless you have the stats to justify the use of "often".
>> The driver is insured not the car so it is creating a total farce anyway. >>
Doesn't the law now all cars to be insured, unless SORNed?
>> Insurance companies don't want to issue certificates either >>
Insurance companies will not be required to issue paper certificates if they don't wish to. It is their choice and the customer's choice if the customer wishes to insure with such a company.
>> The chances of actually being caught driving without insurance are practically nil. >>
Any stats to prove this claim?
>> the criminal justice system won't properly punish them. Steal £50 of fuel get a £25 fine. Don't pay insurance worth £500 get a £100 fine. >>
You are forgetting that plod has new powers to crush the car - if the vehicle has been seized under Section 165 of the Road Traffic Act, a driver has seven working days to produce valid documents, including the insurance certificate, licence and proof of ownership and pay recovery and storage costs.
|
I don't see why the Government don't include basic third party insurance in taxation like Australia does, and it is enforced. If you require comprehensive insurance (car on HP for example) you buy a topup policy from an insurance company.
Maybe our insurance companies have too much influence in certain areas.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 14 Mar 12 at 12:05
|
I agree, but first they need to stop the ridiculous whiplash claims.
At the moment, they are just 'looking into it' like every other problem.
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Wed 14 Mar 12 at 20:05
|
Estimated 2 million uninsured drivers.
Under 200,000 seizures per year so chance of being seized in any one year is less than 1 in 10.
I'm beginning to think I'm a mug for insuring my car at all!
Once a few big names stop issuing certificates then they'll all follow like lemmings. Plus many that drive uninsured buy insurance, get the certificate then cancel straight off. This is why the police take the MID as gospel and ignore a certificate. All these crackdowns inconvenience the honest people. The scumbags always have ways of avoiding it all. If you are stopped out of hours there is no way of proving you are insured if the MID is wrong. Insurance companies need 24 hour operations to confirm insurance status with actual operators that can check if there has been a mistake. This is the only sensible safeguard against catching the innocent unless you expect people to check the MID every time they want to go and buy fuel! Not everyone has internet access either so it is harder for them to check.
If the MID is to be relied on so heavily and automatically then it needs to be more robust and there needs to be an automatic notification of any changes in details that is passive not something you have to keep checking yourself.
|
>> All these crackdowns inconvenience the honest people.
I'm can stand inconvenience if it results in uninsured people being caught.
|
Won't work for reason Westpig's already pointed out; simply cannot get the accuracy good enough to stop it ‘pinging’ all the time.
There are say 25m vehicles on the UK's roads filled on average one a fortnight which if my arithmetic is right gives 625m filling transactions per annum.
Lets say the overall error rate from misreads, database faults and operator foul ups is 0.03%. That's well on the way to 200k unjustified delays and disruptions to people's lives. How long before one of those is life/death - never mind the umpteen Mr/Mrs Upstandings pictured in the Mail?
Politically unacceptable.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 09:53
|
Found an article which says there are roughly 31 million cars on the road. If there are 31 million vehicles and the MID foul up rate is their allowed 2% then the number of mistakes per year is going to be a lot more than 200,000. With an estimated 2 million uninsured vehicles if you only catch a third of them then that is rather a lot of places the police have to be at once too.
Average fill ups are probably weekly I would have thought.
All the people saying they're happy with the inconvenience will change their tune when it happens to them! If a non insured driver finds the fuel stops are they going to hang around for the police? Nope. They're going to leg it. Or leave the car stuck in the fuel station.
And what exactly is going to happen to people with foreign registration plates? Is the insurance status of every vehicle on the planet going to be known or will they just be let off allowing yet another loop hole?
The more I think about it the more it appears to be the pointless posturing that it is.
|
>> the MID foul up rate is their allowed 2% >>
Where do you get the 2% from?
The "error rate" is a misnomer. It refers to the % of data that has to be submitted to the MID by insurance companies within 7 days and within 40 days.
MIB, MID, CIE, etc. are explained in this Cornhill FAQ (lower half of page).
www.cornhilldirect.co.uk/carinsurance/carFAQs.asp
"Under MID1 (private vehicles insured by individuals), the current requirement is for 95% of motor risks to be sent to the MID within 7 days of the transactions effective date and to submit the data in an accurate manner. New CIE legislation creates an additional obligation for insurers to submit 99.9% of motor vehicle policies within 40 days (an error rate of 1 in 1,000). "
|
>> Won't work for reason Westpig's already pointed out; >>
was that before the new CIE requirements became Law, and the obligation to have 99.9% records uploaded within 40 days came in to effect? In other words, is Westpig's fear going to be borne out now that the keeper of the car will be notified that their car appears to be uninsured and has had a chance to get the record corrected if there has been a foul up on the MID? If the keeper is not bothered to check their MID record on askMID, then the following will help: extract below is from the Cornhill FAQ
www.cornhilldirect.co.uk/carinsurance/carFAQs.asp
How does CIE work?
The DVLA's vehicle keeper database and the MID will be compared to identify vehicles that are not recorded on the MID. An Insurance Advisory Letter (IAL) will be sent to the registered keeper informing them that their vehicle does not appear to be insured.
1. The registered keeper may:
Inform the DVLA that they are no longer the registered keeper or the vehicle is sold, SORN etc
Inform the DVLA that the vehicle is stolen and provide a crime reference number
Confirm with their insurer that the vehicle is insured and present on the MID.
2. A second check will be conducted and if the vehicle is still showing as uninsured a £100 fixed penalty notice will be issued.
3. If the penalty notice is not made the vehicle will be immobilised, clamped, and ultimately disposed of. The registered keeper will also be liable to court prosecution for the new criminal offence.
>> simply cannot get the accuracy good enough to stop it ‘pinging’ all the time. >>
I shall wait for a trial before jumping to conclusions.
Last edited by: John H on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 11:43
|
I wonder what other government and private partner 'blacklists' will be created once the system in implemented?
For example, to prevent a rally or protest against the government, they can just make sure you can't buy fuel in some some sort of pre-crime pre-emptive strike.
|
There is enough Big Brother surveillance in our country without adding to it.
How many years before each newborn child has a chip inserted, so our "masters" (they ARE supposed to be our servants, remember?) can spy on our every moment?
|
>> How many years before each newborn child has a chip inserted, so our "masters" (they
>> ARE supposed to be our servants, remember?) can spy on our every moment?
>>
It would save them having to carry it on their shoulders!
;-)
|
|
cant they put the price of the tax and insurance on the petrol? third party and if you want fully comp you pay the extra?
|
It will raise the price of fuel to a great extent. Although many it means people don't have to pay for 3rd party insurance anymore.
But then people will argue that why a bad driver will be treat in same way as a good driver.
Most people will still want to top up by paying extra for comprehensive cover. Insurers will be angry because of losing money on 3rd party cover and so they will charge huge fees for comprehensive cover.
Insurance, though very high, it is often one off (or monthly premium). If it is added on fuel, every time you buy fuel, you will feel the pinch of high price - which is psychologically more stressful than paying a lump sum in one go.
PS: I actually support the idea of this sort of insurance via fuel.
Last edited by: movilogo on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 14:46
|
|
You pay for the NHS and benefits through the pump, why not insurance?
|
Garage CCTV to help catch uninsured drivers - borasport
