I attended my first Major League baseball game yesterday, SF Giants at home to the San Diego Padres. 42,000 sell out crowd, with 'kick off' at 12.45 on a wednesday!
Just before the start I was walking to my seat, beer in hand, margerita in t'other, when some female on the pitch began singing the national anthem. Now everyone, and I mean everyone, stopped what they were doing, stopped talking, stood stationary, took off their caps (even those wearing them back to front) and many even put hand on heart.
You dont get that at the footie matches.
And I got a burnt nose sat in the bleachers for 3 hours.
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The anthem used to be played here in cinemas, and people stood up for it.
In my youth I once or twice remained sitting for some reason I now forget. But I knew I was being silly and it didn't feel right.
It really doesn't matter that one may be a republican or anti-monarchist or think that one is a revolutionary or punk rebel. To show disrespect or ostentatious disregard for something like that is rude to everyone else. They may take no notice, but it's still rude.
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Yep it's a big thing over there, it's taken very seriously in many places over in the us. It's really frowned on any chatting or generally not taking notice of it. I've seen people, non-americans, given a real telling off for not standing up when the anthem was being played in a cinema. All a bit over the top for me, but somehow it suits the americans and fits in with way of doing things.
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>> All a bit over the top for
>> me, but somehow it suits the americans and fits in with way of doing things.
>>
>>
They don't have a monarchy, so the constitution, and symbols of Independence, are obviously a big thing - the flag, the anthem, national seal etc etc etc.
In a way, i quite admire them for it. the nation is a melting pot - huddled masses, and all that - and to have common revered symbols makes a bit of sense when one considers it.
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It's not just that there isn't a monarchy. The nation itself is from everywhere under the sun: immigrants and colonists, no natives or almost none, and 'marginalized' to put it politely... The anthem and flag are ways of constantly reasserting a national identity that was invented in the first place and has to be reinvented all the time. If you aren't really a nation and know it, you are sure to get shirty when some damn foreigner points it out to you by dissing your symbols.
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Never heard the US anthem played in a cinema before....we went to see 'Ted' the other night starring Mark Wahlberg.. My female friend and I found it hilarious. The people behind us never even giggled. Must be my sense of humour.
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There was a debate on R4 just now, males are supposed to find it funnier than women and there was uncertainty as to whether the humour would travel well...
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Rather lubricated from a nice little microbrewery in Salem Mass on 4.7.2008 I attended their Independence Day beachfront concert. The US National Anthem left me feeling emotional and I joined in (knowing the rudiments of the first verse only) - everyone stood to attention and I felt my hand cross to my chest. I can claim some American ancestry a great, great, great paternal Uncle served in a Yankee regiment of black troops in the Civil War, so I reserve the right to appear American at times.
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If they currently had anything to be proud about, I would applaud them.
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...If they currently had anything to be proud about, I would applaud them...
Does your games helper role include assisting the American team?
There could be some Olympic disharmony on the horizon.
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>> Does your games helper role include assisting the American team?
Of course, and I shall make a damn fine job of it. But then I have sales training, I am skilled in two face.
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The problem with our national anthem is that is not about a country, it is about a woman who by accident of her birth, is reigning over us.
America's anthem is about the country, therefore I would imagine most Americans are proud of their country. There are many people in our country who are not Royalists.
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England has many anthems which could be adopted in a non-Royalist way - Jerusalem, I vow to thee my Country are just a couple !
If Carlsberg wrote anthems they'd write "Flower of Scotland" or Land of my Fathers or....sorry Roger.....but the German National Anthem is a top one..
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Doesn't matter what the subject matter of our National Anthem is, the words in every anthem are rubbish, but it doesn't help that the GB national anthem is complete rubbish, rotten lyrics, rotten tune, completely non inspirational.
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>> GB national anthem is complete rubbish, rotten lyrics, rotten tune, completely non inspirational.
Have you listened to any other anthems lately Zero? Many are worse. Australia Fair? The Spanish one is utter garbage. I'm looking forward to the Hungarian one tomorrow or the day after.
Boring is easy to sing too, or to mumble and mouth to. The Olympoids are in a panic because no one knows most of the words or gives a toss. I don't either. It's the anthem, for what it's worth. That's what matters, to the small extent that a national song, good God!, can matter.
Anthem composing: a new Olympic competition. The gold medal entry could be tried out for a year. Makes one's heart sink although in the event it could keep everyone in gales of laughter sometimes at least..
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>Doesn't matter what the subject matter of our National Anthem is, the words in every anthem
>are rubbish,...rotten lyrics, rotten tune, completely non inspirational.
Absolute rubbish!
;-)
Wheear 'as ta bin sin ah saw thee, - ah saw thee.
On Ilkleeee Moooor baht 'at.
Wheear 'as ta bin sin ah saw thee, - ah saw thee.
On Ilklee Moor baht 'at!
On Ilklee Moor baht 'at!
On Ilklee Moor baht 'at!
Tha's been a cooartin' Mary Jane - Mary Jane.
On Ilklee Moor baht 'at
Tha's been a cooartin' Mary Jane
Last edited by: Kevin on Fri 27 Jul 12 at 00:05
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>> German National Anthem is a top one..
Oddly enough it's quite good, I agree. I've never managed to learn the new PC lyric though...
As music of that general sort goes, I have a high regard for the Horst Wessel Song, the Internationale and Jerusalem. There was a great thunderous Latin Paternoster that used to be sung with gusto at my last school. The last two might be verging on the fundamentalist though, and in these paranoid times might even offend 'those of other faiths'.
What might have been eh? But boring is safest really. More inclusive.
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>> England has many anthems which could be adopted in a non-Royalist way - Jerusalem, I
>> vow to thee my Country are just a couple !
>>
>> If Carlsberg wrote anthems they'd write "Flower of Scotland" or Land of my Fathers or....sorry
>> Roger.....but the German National Anthem is a top one..
>>
The Spanish one is wordless and has the best melody of any!
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"England has many anthems which could be adopted in a non-Royalist way - Jerusalem,"
Never quite see why "Jerusalem" is considered a contender for the National Anthem. The answer to the first verse can clearly be answered in one word, "No!"
The second verse's proposal to re-build Jerusualem here I think would be disastrous. We have had enough problems surely with the Olympic village and building an entire city on a green field site would be a political nightmare. The terrorist threat is too awful to contemplate.
That dodgy past tense of the verb "to build" is sure to upset the pedants too.
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountain green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?
Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.
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No Bobby FFS. America's anthem is about the flag actually. The symbol that makes it sort of look as if there's a nation there. The country has been stolen from its indigenous inhabitants who have been more or less wiped out. American national pride is much bound up with racist aggression by the same genocidal colonists, their descendants and others who have joined in the despoliation and exploitation of that territory's resources. Today, the buffalo of the great plains. Tomorrow, the world's oil. Geddit?
Our national anthem isn't about 'a woman who by accident of her birth, etc, etc.' It's about a monarch who can be any gender, half-witted, perverse, anything. Just doesn't matter although respectable behaviour is much prized in such people, even by me. It's about the monarch because the monarch as hereditary head of state symbolises our national unity such as it is.
There are indeed a lot of people in our country who aren't 'Royalists'. What's that got to do with anything? Are they British or aren't they? If they can't stomach the words they can just mumble and move their lips.
Perhaps everyone should have an anthem appropriate to their 'views'. An anthem for seventh day adventists, an anthem for vegans, an anthem for racists, an anthem for scientologists, for Rastafarians, etc.
One quails a bit at the thought of the cacophony that would result. Tchah!
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Actually the Rasta one could turn out a winner....
Heh heh
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I would choose Land of hope an Glory as our anthem over the dirge we have at present, any and every time!, but if I were King it would be Money for nothing - Dire Straits,. In fact that would also suit Queeny now!
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>>most Americans are proud of their country<<
And we as a nation are not.
That is the root of the problem.
We only have to see the bitching and backbiting about the Olympics to realise that. It's almost as if we want to see Britain fail miserably.
There are many words I will always remember from my childhood and early years, that have helped to form my life and values....most of them I can't remember the titles, but have lived by the words.
Every word of Jerusalem
For those in Peril on the sea
When the first breath of Winter, through the flowers is Icing;
and you look to the North, and the pale Moon is rising
He said "Never wait or hesitate
Get in kid, before it's too late
You may never get another chance
'Cos youth a mask but it don't last
live it long and live it fast"
Georgie was a friend of mine
The last one has been blamed for my 'attitude problem' since the early 70's!
Pat
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Not sure if I agree about the British and proud of their country.Many people have turned more cynical Pat regarding the way the country is run.Here in Yorkshire hospital wards and services are cut which leaves people with a sourer taste in their mouths.
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The national anthem is a request to a divine being most don't believe in to save a monarch many don't want composed in a difficult to sing 4/4 waltz time.
No wonder no one bothers to sing it.
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...There are many people in our country who are not Royalists...
Posted from Scotland by a Scotsman.
There are not many people in my country who are not Royalists.
The reception given to the Queen on her jubilee tour shows that.
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>> The reception given to the Queen on her jubilee tour shows that.
Does not make them royalists. I enjoyed and participated in the Jubilee celebrations. I dont want Charles on the throne tho.
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...Does not make them royalists...
This enables me to use the rather splendid pun that you are splitting heirs.
Although I agree the Queen has enormous personal popularity, far greater than any other member of the family.
People who have met Charles - I've interviewed a few - say he's a decent bloke.
Wills and Kate seem to be going down well, particularly abroad.
A CNN commentator described them as 'the biggest stars in the world'.
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This enables me to use the rather splendid pun that you are splitting heirs.
Iffy - Coat Now !!!!
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But why should the Scots love them iffy ??
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Why shouldn't they?
Last time I looked Scotland was part of Great Britain.
It's time we all got behind our country once again and stopped finding faults.
No matter where you look in the world, all countries have their problems and hardships.
Ours are so much less than others, yet we do nothing but complain.
If anyone really doesn't like, or want to live in this green and pleasant land then they should ship out or shape up.
After all, the grass is always greener.......
Pat
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>> After all, the grass is always greener.......
Given the amount of rain we have had, I doubt anyone has greener grass than us,
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Brother was saying its green outside his house in Assen all that rain from the UK.>:)
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Charles a decent bloke? Diana we remember her.
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...Diana we remember her...
Some people will always see Charles as the man who shot Bambi.
Diana was difficult woman, bordering on mental illness.
Marrying into a dysfunctional family was the worst thing she could have done.
I think she may not have gone quite so badly off the rails had she chosen a less high profile partner.
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>> Charles a decent bloke? Diana we remember her.
>>
Diana who?
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All this hand on heart stuff makes me cringe.
I respect the British National Anthem and La Marseillaise and anyone else's if being in their company means being polite. And the Italian one is chirpy.
Otherwise, an accident of birth is an accident of birth. I'll take anarchy every time.
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>>I'll take anarchy every time<<
+1
:-}
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Respect for the National Anthem is very low. Respect for the Union Flag is fairly low, judging by the number of people who fly it upside down.
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I ventured into England a couple of weeks ago on the National Road Rally (and yes, I got an award !) I was quite surprised to see how many Union Jacks flying...
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>> Respect for the National Anthem is very low. Respect for the Union Flag is fairly
>> low, judging by the number of people who fly it upside down.
Sorry, but thats tripe.
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Not my original quote and will raise hackles, but I don't care! ;-)
"America is the only country which has gone from barbarism to decadence without a corresponding period of civilisation"
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>> Not my original quote and will raise hackles, but I don't care! ;-)
>>
>> "America is the only country which has gone from barbarism to decadence without a corresponding
>> period of civilisation"
It could be argued they still havent left the first phase
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>> >> Respect for the National Anthem is very low. Respect for the Union Flag is
>> fairly
>> >> low, judging by the number of people who fly it upside down.
>>
>> Sorry, but thats tripe.
>>
There's no need to apologise. Just explain what you mean by "thats tripe".
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People who fly the flag upside down are not showing disrespect to the flag, frankly which way up it is doesent matter to anyone other than a nitpicker.
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It matters a lot.
Can you imagine the furore if the Stars & Stripes or the Welsh Dragon flag were to be flown upside down?
This is no different and only sloppy thinkers would see it as anything other than plain wrong.
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roger not really the same is it. It's only a small differance which ever way it is.
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I wouldn't be able to tell you which way up the Union Jack should be.
I would guess many others would be in the same boat.
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>> I wouldn't be able to tell you which way up the Union Jack should be.
At the top corner of the side which is attached to the flag pole, the wider of the two white diagonal stripes should be uppermost. The wider of the two white stripes is three times as wide as the narrower, so the difference is definitely significant. tinyurl.com/1dvw
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Maybe all the "Patriots" flying it upside down in Distress mode, are trying to tell the Gov` something!
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What is the correct way to wear it on T shirts, underpants etc.?
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>> What is the correct way to wear it on T shirts, underpants etc.?
>>
Never!
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Well on underpants, it`s the same a normal! - broad white stripe towards the flag-pole! - not so sure about t-shirts though!
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Union Jack underpants worn at half mast around knee level is an internationally recognised signal of distress.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 27 Jul 12 at 16:07
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>
>> white stripes is three times as wide as the narrower, so the difference is definitely
>> significant.
Its not, its really not, if it were people would know to fly it the right way up. But as it looks almost identical either way up and not mistaken for anyone else's flag then who cares. Its certainly not unpatriotic.
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Lesley Garrett's rendition in Paris last Sunday has ruined it for ever! Go the way of Spain - no words.
Last edited by: lancara on Fri 27 Jul 12 at 10:04
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But you need something for 100,000 people to sing! I have to say, much as it pains me, "Flower of Scotland" sang at a sporting event is magnificent.
Probably because non qualifiers dont get to sing it very often.
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Everything is dwarfed by the Welsh National Anthem sung at the National Stadium in Cardiff. No contest.
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Now this is respect for your national anthem.
In Brazil, the band stops playing the anthem but the crowd carry on singing to complete it!
(One of the Brazilian footballers was clearly moved by this.)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEN4nFuV6oI&feature=related
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Agree Zero, when sang in full flow at an event , Flower of Scotland is immense. But only if the crowd are keeping up with the soloist or vice versa!
As a slight digression, with Scotland's football team, the majority of the supporters came from the Central belt and Highlands, very few from Glasgow. This is partly to do with Celtic's Irish background, and Rangers's Unionist back ground. Mix in with that is the fact that Celtic and Rangers supporters are used to seeing winning teams, whereas other club's supporters and Scotland supporters are not!
With Rugby supporters, where I think FOS was first used as an anthem, there are many many proud Scottish people within them, wearing kilts of all tartans including the Scottish Rugby Tartan. So very vociferous in their singing of FOS.
And another relevant point - FOS contains the words of sending Proud Edwards army home again. GSTQ has something along the lines of quashing rebellious Scots !
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>> And another relevant point - FOS contains the words of sending Proud Edwards army home
>> again. GSTQ has something along the lines of quashing rebellious Scots !
Alas GSTQ is accurate in that respect.
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Bobby as one Welsh song has it "Yma o Hyd" (Still here)
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Our national anthem is homeage to the fatherland am I from German blood and honour to the Spanish king.King Billy got a lot to answer for.
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Like making carrots orange.
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Orange carrots never thought of that.Glow in the dark.
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This thread has become very annoying. It's as if people thought the monarchy was some pick'n'mix arrangement like cheap confectionery in Woolworth's: they pipe up about how they aren't royalists, or want to tinker with the succession because they 'don't like' this or that family member or person in line of succession. These delusional attitudes date in particular from the mawkish orgy of self-satisfied popular preening around the funeral of Diana Princess of Wales.
I can't begin to say how depressing this widespread idiocy seems to me. I am tempted to say that if people don't understand the constitution, perhaps they should leave the comment to grown-ups. Only the awareness that I am not yet adult myself prevents me. But yah boo sucks to quite a few of you anyway for your bumptious squeaking.
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The convention for printing the flag (someone asked higher up) is to show it as if the pole was on the left.
Makes me wonder if Cyprus's flag, with its map of the island, appears in mirror-image on the other side. Presumably not.
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>> This thread has become very annoying. It's as if people thought the monarchy was some
>> pick'n'mix arrangement like cheap confectionery in Woolworth's:
Y'know, AC, I don't know if the thread is annoying or not, but I, for one, am grateful for your contributions therein, because I agree with 'em.
I grew up being an anti-monarchist, and I still really don't care much about the royal family. I shocked someone a few months back because I didn't realise that Prince William and Kate Middleton were now married. I don't put up bunting, and I don't wave flags. But I reckon that constitutional monarchy is as good as the alternatives, so I proudly proclaim myself a monarchist these days - even if a rather cynical one.
And as for American patriotism - well, it leaves me a little baffled, and it's definitely not my thing, but I must confess that I think that there is something admirable about it.
The fact of the matter is that I have become so cynical that I am now extremely cynical about the cynicism that prevails in the UK these days.
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AC - sorry I just don't see that a monarchy belongs in this day and age. End of...!
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>> sorry I just don't see that a monarchy belongs
Why be sorry? You aren't alone. Frivolous republicanism is widespread here, and tolerated as most other things are. Polly Toynbee and a host of luvvies say the same. But you will all forgive me if I say that I can't take you seriously, however hard you all try to be serious.
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>> Polly Toynbee and a host of luvvies say the same. But you
>> will all forgive me if I say that I can't take you seriously, however hard
>> you all try to be serious.
>>
Ah yes, hypocrites the lot of them. Politics of envy and all that. They want equality for the masses except when it comes to their own earnings and living standards.
Pack them off to live in a replublican democracy such as Russia and let them discover what it means to disrespect your National Anthem.
Last edited by: John H on Fri 27 Jul 12 at 16:29
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>> Ah yes, hypocrites the lot of them. Politics of envy and all that. They want
>> equality for the masses except when it comes to their own earnings and living standards.
>>
>> Pack them off to live in a replublican democracy such as Russia and let them
>> discover what it means to disrespect your National Anthem.
Why the automatic assumption that anybody writing or speaking from the left does so on basis of envy?. She went to a state comp and after getting a place at Oxford failed to complete her course.
Although descended from a family of published social thinkers there's no evidence of large inherited wealth. Been a prominent writer since the seventies and married successively (widowed the first time) to two Guardian journos. Good income and well positioned to have done well out of London's housing boom. Pretty sure she opposed the cutto the 50% tax rate.
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>> Why the automatic assumption that anybody writing or speaking from the left does so on basis of envy?
Quite. I wasn't going to answer John H's knee-jerk post, but yr. reality check is appropriate. Upper class and bourgeois-intellectual leftists and Marxists are very often swimming against the tide of their social milieu in a way one has to define as courageous. Some perhaps are trying to get back at authoritarian parents, but most have been genuinely repelled by the anti-humanist, anti-intellectual and generally thuggish attitudes they have had to live with through their childhoods and adolescences. On these matters they know what they are talking about, better perhaps than the working class whose cause they embrace.
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>> This thread has become very annoying.
Why? Because not everyone agrees with you and says so?
>> I can't begin to say how depressing this widespread idiocy seems to me.
Perhaps at your age you should stop posting to threads with which you disagree?
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Agree with you about "Dianeolatry", Armand. The worst part for me was tuning in late to the funeral service and hitting upon someone who appeared to be one of the Three Stooges singing some dreary pop song.
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Charlie is a wet twit, and Diana was a simpering tart. ( I won't tell you what my mother, who was a rabid monarchist, called her. Yes I will - it was "that common slut")
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>> Yes I will - it was "that common slut")
Tee hee... but 'common' is a bit over the top...
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I've always thought Russian national anthems were pretty stirring, whether the old czarist or the subsequent soviet.
I'm not sure what the current one is.
I've a hazy recollection that the tune of our anthem is originally German and formed, or perhaps still forms, the basis of other anthems. The old Siamese national anthem, to "our" tune, began "Ah wah tah naw Siam".
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The Ireland one sung in the rugby internationals...
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>> I've always thought Russian national anthems were pretty stirring, whether the old czarist or the
>> subsequent soviet.
It is yes. The best I feel. I liked it so much I learned it off by heart, in russian, as a drunken party piece.
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>> I learned it off by heart, in russian, as a drunken party piece.
Do you mean the Internationale? I'd like to hear that.
Am I alone in thinking the Horst Wessel Song musically very stirring in the same sort of way?
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>> Am I alone in thinking the Horst Wessel Song musically very stirring in the same
>> sort of way?
>>
Agree but then somebody said the devil has all the best tunes. Come to think of it there's a certain generic style to the marching tunes of the dictators whether Hitler, Stalin or Mao.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 27 Jul 12 at 17:04
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>> Am I alone in thinking the Horst Wessel Song musically very stirring in the same
>> sort of way?
>>
Great marching music, Lud. I have it on my Empy3 although I don't march anywhere now.
Makes me want to invade somewhere......logisics hold me back !
Ted
>>
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>> >
>>
>> Do you mean the Internationale? I'd like to hear that.
>>
I don't think so. The Internationale was replaced as the Soviet national anthem in 1944 by the "Hymn of the Soviet Union", specially composed as a solely Soviet anthem to inspire the nation in the patriotic war.
That presumably was the anthem current during the Cold War, and the one sung at the MI5 party in Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy?
I have a Russian musical box made in 1957 to commemorate the launching of the first sputnik. It plays the Internationale followed by a series of rather atmospheric sputnik beeping noises.
Unusually for a Soviet artefact it is rather well made, in burnished brass and black bakelite, and depicts the northern portion of the globe, with a curved plastic aerial arching elegantly, from Russia. The whole thing rotates slowly while playing.
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>> GSTQ has something along the lines of quashing rebellious Scots !
It's worse than quash...
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.
To be fair that verse was considered redundant before GSTQ was accepted as the national anthem. It's sole purpose now is to be dragged up to cause trouble.
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Thats the 5th Verse. Everyone has dropped off to sleep by verse 2.
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Respect for national anthem - Armel Coussine
