| Non-motoring > Tia Sharp | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: MD | Replies: 149 |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 06:41
Tia Sharp - MD
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| The Boyfriend has now been arrested. Why, for the purposes of elimination was their home not searched first off? It also looks to be quite small. Where in there could you 'hide' a body? Only asking. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 07:04
Tia Sharp - Iffy
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...Where in there could you 'hide' a body?... I was thinking the same, although presumably the grandmother spent some time in the house before it was cordoned off and she didn't see a body, so perhaps it was well-concealed. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 07:27
Tia Sharp - MD
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| Or she was in on it. Can't hide a Fiver from my Woman let alone a body. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 08:24
Tia Sharp - Tigger
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| Oh I don't know. If wrapped and wedged in a corner of the loft then it might be feasible to miss? I guess we'll get to know the full facts as time progresses, but I'll not jump to conclusions |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 08:35
Tia Sharp - R.P.
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| The house seems to have been searched four times. A subliminal suggestion is that it was moved into the property after the searches or moved between interconnecting roof-spaces on these jerry built hutches. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 08:55
Tia Sharp - smokie
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| Garage? |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 08:59
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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The first search will be a cursory one and mostly for an alive human. Being a child, it can be common for them to hide in or around the home. The officer(s) doing so may well be fairly junior and not as experienced as some. The following searches would have been different, but bear in mind they are voluntary on the part of the householder, no one's been arrested, no powers for the police have kicked in allowing them in to search the house at this stage. Would they have enough grounds/evidence to ask a court to make that decision? Judgement call. Two obvious places to me that may/may not have been searched initially are 1, loft...2, under the bath (by taking the panel off). One particular case I know of (and ended up doing an enormous amount of writing for), where officer's were being thorough and insisted on searching the loft for a missing person.....it ended up in a long weary complaint afterwards. Sadly, there are so many kids that go temporarily missing these days, that there's also a saturation syndrome. I'd hazard a guess the initial few days of the girl being missing only had some standard checks/searches done. It will be interesting to see if there's criticism of the Met Police afterwards once an enquiry is held...not I suspect that it would have helped this young girl...sadly. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 09:25
Tia Sharp - Woodster
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Martin, as Westpig says, there is no lawful authority to search the home unless a person has been arrested for an indictable offence and then an Inspectors authority is generally required, with apropriate justification, to search. The young girls home would almost definitely have been searched voluntarily when the missing person report was taken, but the body was found at the Grandmother's home - no authority to search there and indeed initially, for what reason would officers search there? Until you have some suspicion to do so, how on earth do you approach searches of family members houses and what justification would you suggest to the family members? Every missing person becomes a full investigation after initial enquiries are complete in much the same way that a serious crime is investigated. It's likely that the investigation part (as opoosed to initial 48 hrs work) led to suspicions that simply weren't apparent at the outset. To put missing person reports in some perspective it might help if I told you that a provinicial force with which I'm familiar (!) takes in excess of 5,000 missing person reports a year. I kid you not. It becomes a huge burden and diversion from core policing to even record these, let alone investigate them. The bulk are young people and found within 48 hrs. You'd understand from those figures that initial investigation depends entirely on the circumstances revealed by the family, habits of the missing person, relationships outside the family, arguments, pushing of boundaries by youngsters etc. Now, I'm avoiding laying a new shed base and whilst I'd prefer to sit in the shade, when my very good lady returns from her Sister's in Majorca, there had better be a new shed where the old one was.... no rest |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 09:28
Tia Sharp - Iffy
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...I'm avoiding laying a new shed base... But what do you plan to put under it? |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 09:40
Tia Sharp - bathtub tom
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His good lady's in Majorca, or so he says.................... ;>) |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 10:46
Tia Sharp - Woodster
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| Dammit. that obvious?? Whoops, looks like I'm back in for coffee and egg banjos.... |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 12:58
Tia Sharp - smokie
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"Detectives hunting for the missing 12 year-old found human remains after using ladders to reach the loft space at the home of her grandmother Christine Sharp, 46." from www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9468931/Tia-Sharp-police-make-two-further-arrests-after-body-discovered-in-grandmothers-house.html Seems Gran has been arrested for murder now - from the same article "A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "A 46 year-old woman was arrested on suspicion of murder. "She was taken to a south London police station where she remains in custody. "A 39 year-old man was arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender."" |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 13:21
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Another nauseating case whose details will emerge over the coming weeks and months for our prurient pleasure. I have to say from TV and newspaper clips and photos I have seen that the entire neighbourhood where the little girl lived seems to be populated by very creepy tattooed middle-aged men and women with their arms possessively around winsome blonde nippers. Several such have been interviewed. I know one should respect people's culture and I have nothing against tattoos on principle. But that seems a place worth avoiding. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 13:26
Tia Sharp - Runfer D'Hills
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| I'd quite like to aid in the re-habilitating of them. It would be a short course. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 14:01
Tia Sharp - Rudedog
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| I drive through New Addington on my way to work each day, it has a very bad reputation around here and has experienced many doorstep gangland shootings over the past few years, I was lead to believe that the estate is the biggest purpose built estate in Europe. I stopped to fill up at the local garage yesterday just as the news announced the discovery of the body and believe me it was not nice around the area, there were groups of men and women gathering on the forecourt planning how they were going to 'get' the rest of the family and that the police would need an armoured van to remove them safely. It did make me smile that the police were advising against approaching the wanted man because really they should have been protecting him against the gangs of angry people I saw. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 14:07
Tia Sharp - John H
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>> searched voluntarily when the missing person report was taken, but the body was found at >> the Grandmother's home - no authority to search there and indeed initially, for what reason >> would officers search there? >> Tia was staying with her grandmother. She was last seen alive there with the Gran's boyfriend/ "partner". The boyfriend used to be boyfriend/"partner" of Tia's mother before he swapped the grandmother for the mother. Initial press stories about when the boyfriend claimed to have last seen Tia alive suggested that his story was changing by the hour. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 16:54
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> Tia was staying with her grandmother. She was last seen alive there with the Gran's >> boyfriend/ "partner". The boyfriend used to be boyfriend/"partner" of Tia's mother before he swapped the >> grandmother for the mother. >> >> Initial press stories about when the boyfriend claimed to have last seen Tia alive suggested >> that his story was changing by the hour. >> If the boyfriend had been nicked early on, there's powers to search the house he resides at (i.e. grandma's)...however...you then start using up 'relevant time' i.e. there's a limit to the amount of time you can hold people in custody, so you have to juggle the right time you nick someone. Early arrest = good for forensics and good for other powers that go with it, but bad for using up relevant time. If you run out of relevant time, you're spannered. Summons only, no opportunity to interview them unless they volunteer. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:09
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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I am very sorry for Tia, and for those impacted by her death, but I see the UK has almost immediately turned back to its need to blame someone. The police have just apologised for not finding the body in an earlier search. I find this ridiculous. Every copper or copper-associate who went in that house would have been doing their best to check the child or her body were not there. Ok, so they didn't find her, which is a shame. But for goodness sakes are we now truly in the position of blaming them (or someone else) for every single mistake? I'm all for examining things to see if the process can be improved, but do we really have to do this witch hunt every time? A scumbag killed a child. That's where the fault lies. Forcing some person or some organisation somewhere to apoloise for trying to do the best but ultimately turning out to be human satisfies the media's need for revenue and the spectator's need to blame someone. It is completely counter productive and not at all nice. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:16
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Westpig explains above a constraint on police action that I was unaware of, and of course there are others. Wronged citizens are never slow to accuse the police of heavy-handedness. It must be a bit of a minefield dealing with these extremely lumpen extended families which can be more innocent than they look, or less innocent. But there are rules of evidence however convinced a copper may feel that the obvious toerags with the staring chicken's eyes were probably responsible. 'We love her to bits.' Literally, yuck. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:46
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> Westpig explains above a constraint on police action that I was unaware of, It's why the last Govt. was talking about extended detention periods in terrorism cases. Some of the computer type enquiries are most laborious....and the thinking was you don't want your international terrorist suspect to clear off whilst they're out on bail. In a bog standard case you can hold someone for 24 hrs max (during which time they must have an 8 hour rest period). Something more serious, a police Superintendent can authorise up to another 12 hours, so that would be up to 36 hours. Really serious cases, before the end of the 36 hours, you have to ask a Magistrate and you can do that twice, up to a total of 96 hours (4 days). Bear in mind that during those 4 days, there will be 4 x 8 hr rest periods. You can easily run out of time. That's why most suspects get bailed, to come back later, because the clock stops ticking then. Try telling that to a victim or victim's family, who can't understand why someone is back out gain so quick. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:18
Tia Sharp - Woodster
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| It'spossible that there were serious errors made by the police and it's possible that the body was moved. I'm sure we'll find out in the fullness of time. Naturally I'd like to think that there's a good explanation for the investigation and of course perhaps we'll never know whether she was being held against her will and then killed or killed before being reported missing. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:24
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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One issue is that the moment the authorities make the process official, the media then have to be careful about what they publish. Consequently the only way to satisfy the deep public need is to focus on the triva that they can publish. Years ago I was living in Miami when Princess Diana died. At that time there was a talk show by Montel Williams. Not a great show, but a highly watched one. Just before an advert break he announced that he had photos of Diana dying in the car and would show them immediately after the break. After the break he admitted he didnt have any photos, but asked how many people had turned off in disgust, and how many people had called someone else to come and watch. The point being, that society gets exactly the media it is prepared to pay for. There is no particular thought control or conspiracy within the media, although much of it is not very pleasant. They are just there to make money and will publish whatever will make them the most. Thus, when the Sun is vilifying the police or some similar occurence, then it is entirely the fault and responsibilty of those buying or reading the Sun, not the business producing the Sun. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:31
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> There is no particular thought control or conspiracy within the media, although much of it is not very pleasant. They are just there to make money and will publish whatever will make them the most. I don't agree entirely. The media don't just reflect opinion, they shape it at the same time in a continuous process. And it is most certainly the case that a few essential political views are propagated systematically, and others systematically rubbished. Not completely systematically though. There are enough holes in the system to show that they are free media. But they do push in consistent directions. It's part of their function. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:48
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>they shape it at the same time in a continuous process Yes, they do. However, they are mostly driven by the audience in their approach. My point was not so much that they are following opinion, although they do a lot, more that they were following an approach that the public likes. e.g. They publish "up skirt" photographs of various female celebrities because that's what a portion want to see. They constantly represent the negative aspect of an incident or situation because that's what the public want to read. They build "unknowns" up to make them famous, because that's what the public like and then they tear the famous back down again for the same reason. The needs to blame, moan, criticise, and sensationalise all come from the audience. The "style", if you will, of the media is of the audience's making. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 18:06
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Yes, without a ghastly prurient disapproving market the tabloids wouldn't publish the exact sort of piffle they do publish. I didn't mean to make out either that the media always play a positive role in national debates. They often don't. Their various owners and controllers have their own peculiarities, bees in their bonnets and so on. Taken as a bloc though they outweigh any political party, and elements of the media are often engaged in submerged political struggles. The current anti-plod campaign for example. It's hard to make out the purpose but there must be one. These are odd, unusual times. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:33
Tia Sharp - Roger.
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| The pictures of the "boyfriend/partner" made him look like a lowlife! |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:37
Tia Sharp - Manatee
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inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/police-popularity-bounce-ends-suddenly-shock/ Comment on criticism of police. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:41
Tia Sharp - Dave
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| Chavs. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 17:46
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> Comment on criticism of police. Good piece of indignant polemic. Is the inspector from the Met one wonders? Renowned for sarcasm, the Met. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 18:04
Tia Sharp - rtj70
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When they arrested the boyfriend after finding the body my initial thoughts included: 1. How did he manage to hide the body without the gran knowing 2. Why didn't the gran suspect anything. 3. How did he move a 12-year olds body - okay they won't be heavy but if it was the loft then getting them there might be a little tricky. But now not only might the gran be involved but so is another 39-year old man. Which then makes me wonder if the body was elsewhere and brought to the house after a thorough search - although wouldn't someone notice. Like said above I do wonder if it was in the loft (wrapped in plastic or similar) or under the bath. Or if the header tank for water no in use even in there. A sad day for Tia's mother - finding out that your daughter is dead. And then finding out your mother may be involved! |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 18:13
Tia Sharp - Dutchie
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Very unusual case a grandmother involved with the death of her granddaughter. The mind boggles. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 18:28
Tia Sharp - rtj70
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>> The mind boggles. It sure does. I wonder if she's only helped hide the body etc. But still your own grandchild! I cannot understand this at all. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 18:31
Tia Sharp - Iffy
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The police have got their apology in early: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19223085 Hardly inspires confidence, but the child is still dead whenever she's found. Let's hope the coppers don't make any more bodge-ups enabling those responsible to wriggle off the hook when it comes to court. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 18:40
Tia Sharp - Dutchie
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| Difficult to blame the police.Can't be always easy for them in cases like this.If somebody hides the body.Often these people are good actors with their crocodile tears.Look at the couple who allegedly burned their six children. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 18:50
Tia Sharp - Robin O'Reliant
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| The popular press are getting their own back on the police for the disgraceful way they've been treated. I mean, hounded and imprisoned for such trivial little things like bribery, phone hacking, perverting the course of justice etc. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 20:02
Tia Sharp - Fullchat
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| The picture I saw of Hazell had a distinct look of Huntley about him. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 20:14
Tia Sharp - Iffy
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...had a distinct look of Huntley about him... Word reaches me from inside Frankland that Huntley is now unrecognisable from the pics at the time, not least because he now weighs about 20 stone. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 20:18
Tia Sharp - Old Navy
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>> Huntley is now unrecognisable from the pics at >> the time, not least because he now weighs about 20 stone. >> I was hoping that his fellow residents had modified his appearance. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 20:51
Tia Sharp - bathtub tom
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A (female) BIB once told me excessive use of 'pot' makes the teeth fall out. I always wonder when I look at some people.............. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:17
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> A (female) BIB A GIB then? >> excessive use of 'pot' makes the teeth fall out. I wonder what excessive means? Still, too late to worry about it now. My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that smoking in general isn't ideal for the teeth, but what does for them is neglect. We were more or less taught that when I was a nipper, neglect I mean. No orthodontists in those days. Just extractions and fillings. The very word hygienist would have made us laugh. Cocaine is definitely hostile to teeth and gums though. The moment you try it you notice. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:46
Tia Sharp - henry k
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>>No orthodontists in those days. Just extractions and fillings. >> What days were they? I was regularly at a NHS orthodontist 60 years ago. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 23:57
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> I was regularly at a NHS orthodontist 60 years ago. It must have been apparent that my teeth needed attention from before the time the NHS existed. And what with one thing and another, they didn't get it in any consistent fashion. Both my parents had bad teeth. A succession of private, naval and NHS dentists didn't achieve anything consistent. As an adult I was resolutely neglectful of my teeth and they got worse and worse. The best dentist I had, an agreeable Geordie who had been in the RAF in Algeria during the war, a man who never left any infection, was unfortunately also like most people of his or my generation stoical about tooth loss. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:27
Tia Sharp - zookeeper
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| those ' criminal profilers' must have been getting very short odds when the ' boyfriend' first appeared on the box?...my other half said it was him the first time he appeared on the news |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:29
Tia Sharp - MD
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| As did Erin', 'ere. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:41
Tia Sharp - Old Navy
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And mine, how do they think they will get away with a crime so close to home, are they really that stupid? I say they, as opposed to people, deliberately. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:45
Tia Sharp - rtj70
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Sad to say we thought he was guilty in some way too. And if they were responsible, they must b stupid. I wonder if the 39 year old was a neighbour and hid the body for them? Hence police not finding it. If the lofts are linked then that would make that easier - no warrant for the police to search another property. EDIT: I see it is a neighbour. Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 11 Aug 12 at 22:46
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 22:47
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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> I wonder if the 39 year old was a neighbour and hid the body for >> them? Hence police not finding it. If the lofts are linked then that would make >> that easier - no warrant for the police to search another property. >> >> EDIT: I see it is a neighbour. >> ...or...gave a sighting of Tia that was untrue. |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 23:27
Tia Sharp - smokie
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| I can't imagine a neighbour would have covered up in any way for them, that would take a particularly low form of lowlife wouldn't it? I wondered it the body was in the neighbours roof and as they don't yet established who dunnit, they arrested them both just to be safe. Note that none is yet charged... |
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New Sat 11 Aug 12 23:48
Tia Sharp - rtj70
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You might be right Smokie about the neighbour. I still cannot believe the gran might be involved. Doesn't sound like the nicest of areas. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 00:04
Tia Sharp - teabelly
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>> You might be right Smokie about the neighbour. >> >> I still cannot believe the gran might be involved. Doesn't sound like the nicest of >> areas. >> She's the type of gran that has a 12 year old grandaughter at 46, a 31 year old daughter and is seeing the daughter's ex boyfriend! It's not the area that is the issue. It's the kind of people that live there and dream of being disfunctional enough to go on Jeremy Kyle. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 00:24
Tia Sharp - rtj70
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>> It's not the area that is the issue. It's the kind of people that live there It's more the people I was commenting on. But the two are now linked I suppose. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 09:20
Tia Sharp - PeteW
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| The saddest thing about all this for me is that I just can't shake the feeling that in some way Tia is better off now. I know it's wrong to feel like this but what chance did the poor girl have with a family like that? |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 12:50
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> The saddest thing about all this for me is that I just can't shake the >> feeling that in some way Tia is better off now. I know it's wrong to >> feel like this but what chance did the poor girl have with a family like >> that? >> I sort of think I know what you mean.....it would have been nice if she'd had some choice. You never know, some kids can drag themselves out of it. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 13:10
Tia Sharp - devonite
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| Whether we think of them as "Rough" or whatever, she probably loved them dearly! |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 13:08
Tia Sharp - WillDeBeest
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I won't condemn you for expressing the thought, Pete, because I think you meant it sympathetically, but who's to say? People do fashion rewarding lives from the most unpromising starts. We don't know that Tia wouldn't have made a go of school, avoided becoming the third teenage parent in three generations and 'made something of herself' - but she'd have needed a better example to follow than it seems she was getting from her own immediate family. So, stepping back from the specific and looking at the general, what do we as Society do? Give thanks that we, O Lord, are not like other men, and condemn the children of these 'chavs' and 'benefit scroungers' for the sins of their parents? Or try to improve the lot of all of them with the attendant risk that some might not make the expected reciprocal effort? Difficult as it may be, I know which I'd prefer. Tia may not have been well parented and it doesn't look as if her mother was, either; before that, who knows? But it's a cycle that needs breaking or it'll only get worse. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 14:24
Tia Sharp - Runfer D'Hills
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The sad thing I reflect upon is the way our society has evolved and in particular with reference to the workplace, is that the opportunities to provide for themselves autonomously, for those who are not among life's higher achievers, have become much more limited. A generation or maybe two back along, anyone who was willing to exchange their efforts for a days pay could pretty much aspire to do that on a reasonably regular and reliable basis. The hopelessness engendered by lack of what might be called entry level jobs must be one of the most significant factors. To a degree it's our own fault. We as a society or at least those who were in a position to influence such things, failed to recognise the importance of keeping a manufacturing base in this country, the inexorable demand for cheaper goods and services has pushed most of that work off shore to cheaper labour markets. Resultantly we don't really have the engine room to drive the ship or need the stokers to keep it fuelled. I can't begin to use this as any kind of excuse for bad, evil or criminal behaviour of course but it creates, or adds to at least, a sociological formula which makes such things more likely. Self esteem, self reliance and self respect are the main factors required for a stable society. Without those we revert fairly quickly to a much more feral state. Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sun 12 Aug 12 at 14:26
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 14:33
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> We as a society or at least those who were in a position to influence such things, failed to recognise the importance of keeping a manufacturing base in this country, the inexorable demand for cheaper goods and services has pushed most of that work off shore to cheaper labour markets. Westpig and others may complain but that was Mrs Thatcher although probably it would have happened anyway because 'capitalism' doesn't have a head and thinks with its stomach. What I thought at the time was that she was putting paid to the trade unions in a necessary way but throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Banking deregulation doesn't seem so good nowadays either. But I doubt if Mrs Thatcher had real autonomy of choice. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 14:51
Tia Sharp - Runfer D'Hills
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| I don't really know who to blame in truth. I suppose all of us who were adults at the time bear some culpability through our actions or lack of them. One can blame naivety, ignorance or self interests but ultimately, with the benefit of hindsight we all jointly royally knackered the machine. The chain links which turned and drove the economy are not just broken but now completely missing and irreplaceable. If we are to have any hope, a new formula must be found. I don't pretend to know what that is mind you... |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 15:53
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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I didn't think I was blaming anyone exactly, although when looking for big-time culprits the direction to look is upward, not downward. What is broken can be mended, what is missing can be replaced. But as you imply Humph they won't be, or not as before. Something new will evolve out of the new situation as it always and inevitably does. It may have a familiar feel because the components must already be in advanced pre-production and development. It may not really be all that new. Whatever forms it takes, alienated and as it were feral lumpen elements are unlikely to disappear overnight from the threadbare advanced societies. Indeed they will perhaps multiply. Some sort of intellectual revolution is going to be needed in the struggling social, psychiatric and medical services and perhaps in the police too. There are absolutely no signs that many people realise this or that change on the required scale is even possible. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 15:46
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> Westpig and others may complain ...and here it is. You can't keep uncompetitive businesses going, it's uneconomic. The State will end up subsidising it. You don't need that, you want business to provide income for it, not cost the State. One areas where it has gone wrong, is giving kids the false hope that a university education for all was the way to go...and that wasn't Mrs Thatcher, was it? What's wrong with a good old apprenticeship? I know numerous people who'd like a 'young lad/lass' to start and learn a trade, but where would you find them? They're all bumming around on the bank of mum and dad waiting for the dream job to land in their laps...or waiting to go off to uni. Mad. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 16:03
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Don't disagree with most of that Westpig. A lot of people shouldn't waste their time with academic stuff, especially when young. It isn't everyone's cup of tea and not everyone is any use at it. Similarly, I think it stands to reason that apprenticeship is a good idea, in most professions actually. And most do have it in one form or another. But I suspect most youngsters don't want to spend ten years with a curmudgeonly eccentric who happens to be a master plumber before becoming a plumber themselves. They have been sold the vacuous modern idea that a short, tailored 'course' will enable them to be plumbers making proper grown-up money in six months. And of course few will have the brains or ability to get away with it (no one should imagine that a stupid idiot can be an acceptable plumber. Plumbing needs brains, like everything else). |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 16:10
Tia Sharp - Lygonos
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I think you'll find a large portion of this social circle neither aims for a trade, or further education. If you live in an area where the norm is to have no job or be unskilled it takes a lot of enthusiasm to elevate the children's aspirations to more than their parents have attained. Zero tolerance on anti-social behaviour to break the hold of gang culture would be very helpful. Money should be prioritised in Policing/Legal system (with a view to improving society, not just locking up baddies), and Education. Great that the NHS is, to pay for it we need a society that is cohesive and keen to work. I have no doubt that the huge cut in Police expenditure will not further this end. Surely money spent speeding up the legal process will have a small return on reducing waste of Police time/court appearances. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 16:16
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> Surely money spent speeding up the legal process will have a small return on reducing waste of Police time/court appearances. It might not even cost any money, although changing entrenched Spanish practices in the civil service is a heavy task (they say). And I would have thought that bringing certain elements of the legal profession to heel could result in quite substantial savings. A win-win situation. We can dream can't we? |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 16:25
Tia Sharp - Dog
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>>Plumbing needs brains, like everything else)<< Most plumbers are crooks (a plumber told me that) crooks need brains (the 'good' ones) |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 16:37
Tia Sharp - henry k
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>>What's wrong with a good old apprenticeship? >>What ,when being a footballer or a pop star is THE way to go.:-( >> >>I know numerous people who'd like a 'young lad/lass' to start and learn a trade, but where would you find them? >> Poland ? >> They're all bumming around on the bank of mum and dad waiting for the dream job to land in their laps... Too true. >>or waiting to go off to uni. Or a so called uni. Then what, emerge after little real effort with a bit of paper that is worthless in the real word >>Mad. I agree. IMO Education, Education, Education is where the effort is needed. Not just opting out and saying that it is the schools job. It is also the parents job and that alone is a big problem as it is now not one generation that is not up to speed. The lack of competition at schools plus not selecting pupils talents and developing them does not help. Teachers not encouraging pupils to aim for the top unis is so so bad. It was a totally new world for us when our two both went to top rated unis. We both did not do A levels so no experience of the transition to Uni but we soon learned. We would like to pass on our info to youngsters ( as my daughter does) but the system puts big barriers in the way. I taught my children to read and would have assisted others but "who is this old fellow we do not know, coming to the school it teach young kids ? Just to many hoops to jump through! It the old days when there were many basic factory production line jobs it was a case of simple tasks. Now jobs need much more mental ability and it is just not there. I worked in an environment where graduate recruiting was the norm. Some were very bright but useless- could not communicate, would not see the job through and thought the world owed them a promotion. Those that joined us from the ranks could easily be identified by their approach to the job. I lost count of how many times I heard or said "Very bight but useless in our team" so even uni is not always the answer. An example of the other end of the the education scene. My daughter went straight to uni with no gap year and is still studying, training and getting experience. That will be 18 years of hard work and then she will be fully qualified and has to apply for an NHS job or do hospital locum jobs. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 16:52
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Good stuff henry. There's a sort of pretentious, faux academic attitude abroad which I believe to have come from the teaching profession, which went through a lefty phase in the sixties and seventies and became wimpishly PC after that, with damage to teaching and the intellectual development of the young at every stage. As a result you have incompetents who have never got grease under their fingernails barking orders and resentful, cynical grease monkeys doing something or other and hoping to get away with it. So to speak. The announced full-scale Falstaffian celebration in a beer factory ends up as two bottles of red wine and a few twiglets in a garishly lit venue without enough chairs, hastily improvised at the last minute by a downtrodden secretary. Amazing that anything gets done at all when you think about it. This country could never organise an Olympic games in a thousand years... er... |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 17:17
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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Good note Henry. However, I think its even more deep seated. The problem lies mostly with the parents. Even academically if the parents felt it was more important, more worthy of putting time into and more worthy of political pressure then it would improve. No longer do children grow up with a desire to be better than they were, or better than the person next to them. In attempting to not emotionally harm the ones who can not do better, we have taken the drive from the ones that could. In the very early days the Headmaster of my childrens' school said something paraphrased as; "we do not reward effort. We like you for it, we admire you for it, but we reward achievement". I really like that. It seems these days that it is unacceptable for people to point out that you're bad at something. That either you shold try harder, or you should accept that you'll always be bad at it. Nobody feels they should start at the hard, difficult, poorly paid bottom and work their way up any more. I did. I started cleaning a factory for the equivalent of £2.63 an hour at today's prices. ( see www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html to work out "today's price" of anything. ) Ultimately I managed to improve that by hard work. Of course luck, recognition, and right place right time, but mostly through my own efforts. Some people these days expect to step in at a well paid place, and see no disgrace in not bothering to do anything if they can't. I don't know what proportion of youth these days are lazy, good for nothing, idle gits, but I am sure that its a lot higher than it was years ago, when they also would have been looked down upon. I wonder if the current drive to bring COMPETITIVE sport back into school will start to redress the direction of travel. As for Tia, bless, I'd kill the murderer in a second. Not for revenge or satisfaction, not as a deterrent, not even to cause him/her similar suffering, but simply because the reoffending rate of dead people is 0%. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 12 Aug 12 at 17:18
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 17:30
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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I don't think parents need to be blamed for their children's academic failure, unless they actively or passively undermine schooling or discourage it. They often have busy working lives and may not be that good at teaching their nippers to read, count and think. In my youth, when quite a lot of mature working-class people were illiterate or nearly so, their children could still get educated if they paid attention in school. Of course a lot didn't and a lot of my own contemporaries left secondary modern at 14 or 15 and went out to work. Children with literate, patient, affectionate parents tend to go to nursery school well prepared, as do the children of intellectual middle-class parents. The trouble is that a lot of what passes for education in primary and secondary schools these days is dross, or so it seems to me. In a way children need more help from home these days to counteract or inflect some of the stuff they learn at school. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 17:38
Tia Sharp - CGNorwich
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I don't know how the next generation will manage. Why can't they just pay themselves too much, generate massive inflation to pay off their mortgages, borrow squillions of pounds and leave it to the next generation to sort it all out like we did. No idea kids today. ;-) |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 17:47
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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AC, It is frequently dross, no doubt about it. Or at least, it is in a lot of schools. However, consider the outcry everytime someone gets bad food from a kebab van, police miss a body in a search, etc etc. How come there isn't that ourcry when a child is being educated badly? Because if parents as a whole believed it was as serious as McD increasing the price of a Big Mac, it'd be in all the tabloids and the politicians would be getting real pressure. But the truth is parents don't believe that. And even where that holistic education is available at school, it is often not reinforced at home. And as you say "children need more help from home to counteract or inflect". |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 17:54
Tia Sharp - Manatee
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>>I don't know what proportion of youth these days are lazy, good for nothing, idle gits, but I am sure that its a lot higher than it was years ago, when they also would have been looked down upon. Perhaps the difference now is that it's "OK" to be an under-achiever and be living off your parents at 26 or 27. I had a six week period of introspection when I was 20, which was enough for my father to lose patience! There's no single thing to blame, or a quick fix. But politicians love problems because they can hang their popularity on a "new" idea that rides the mood of the moment. I groaned when Cameron popped up to say all children would be required to do competitive team games in school. A not even half-baked idea and pure clap-trap. No attention where it would do any good. Lots of effort on inventing targets and fiddling the reporting, and on more and more cotton woollery to protect us from ourselves or persuade us that we are well-served. We should let normal things happen, it does anyway, and get on and do a few proper things, regardless. Clearly I need to develop the articulation of this theory a bit, but you get the drift. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Aug 12 at 01:53
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 17:59
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>six week period of introspection when I was 20, which was enough for my father to lose patience! That made me smile. 6 weeks was enough time for my Father to decide to "help" with my direction as well. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 18:12
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Of course you're right Manatee. They are asking for a short sharp shock with this politicking-by-numbers malarkey. We need to tell the carphounds in no uncertain terms that they are sending us the wrong signals. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 11:56
Tia Sharp - Bromptonaut
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>> >> It seems these days that it is unacceptable for people to point out that you're >> bad at something. That either you shold try harder, or you should accept that you'll >> always be bad at it. Or perhaps there's a missing conceptual link - a lack of that lightbulb moment. That needs gifted teachers allowed to use their professional nous. Unfortunately we're going the other way with ever more prescription (eg phonics in reading) and Gove's latest lunacy; allowing the unqualified to 'teach'. >> I wonder if the current drive to bring COMPETITIVE sport back into school will start >> to redress the direction of travel. It might if you're good at that stuff. I am and always will be crap at anything played in teams that involves hitting, kicking or catching a ball. Always the last to be picked along with a cohort of others ill co-ordinated or unhealthy. Did me no good at all until the final years at Grammar school where we could opt to swim or cycle. School sport should be about exercising for health. When you mix it up with some public school orthodoxy about playing fields and stoping some imaginary 'all must have prizes' ethos you're going nowhere. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 12:14
Tia Sharp - Number_Cruncher
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>>Gove's latest lunacy; allowing the unqualified to 'teach'. As someone who has been recently subjected to a left wing indoctrination, sorry!, teaching course, I disagree absolutely Bromp, this suggestion is genius from Mr Gove. Am I a better teacher for being qualified? No! My practice is informed by common sense rather than abstract teaching models. The qualified teacher status is just an artificial barrier to entry, a false bolster for the teaching unions. The sooner these are dismantled in many fields of work, the better. There is a distinction between the true and false pre-requisites for work. I wouldn't be too bothered if a non-FENSA person fitted double glazing, but, I would be concerned if someone who had never been taught Euler-Bernoulli beam theory began to design a bridge. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 12:48
Tia Sharp - John H
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>> Gove's latest lunacy; allowing the unqualified >> to 'teach'. >> >> >> I wonder if the current drive to bring COMPETITIVE sport back into school will >> start >> >> to redress the direction of travel. >> re. both the points above, from my experience of a top Public "Grammar" School which in the last ten or so years, it has been in the top 10 (and quite often in the top 5) by any measure of success: 1. it employs many teachers straight from industry and commerce who have no formal teaching qualifications, but teach subjects in which they have relevant qualifications and experience. So you never get the ludicrous situation that you find in state schools where Arts graduates teach Sciences. 2. in the first year, pupils have to choose from Rugby, Hockey or Cricket as one of their compulsory sports. Exceptions are only made for those who can provide a medical certificate proving unsuitability for all of those sports. Bromptonaut, you should visit a few Public schools on their open days to get to know what really goes on in the private sector. It might just change your prejudiced views. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 12:54
Tia Sharp - Bromptonaut
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>> Bromptonaut, you should visit a few Public schools on their open days to get to >> know what really goes on in the private sector. It might just change your prejudiced >> views. I'm not a great fan of private education based on what I see and hear in the locality and on my own interaction with some of it's products. I don't think that makes me prejudiced. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 12:58
Tia Sharp - Iffy
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...I'm not a great fan of private education based on what I see and hear in the locality and on my own interaction with some of it's products... Some of the posh Durham students do themselves no favours. I expect most of them grow up - eventually. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 13:18
Tia Sharp - John H
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>> ...I'm not a great fan of private education based on what I see and hear >> in the locality and on my own interaction with some of it's products... >> >> Some of the posh Durham students do themselves no favours. >> >> I expect most of them grow up - eventually. >> >> >> Not a product of the school they went to, but a product of the parents. It is possible for state school parents as well as private school parents to fail in their duty to the children they have brought in to this world. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 13:19
Tia Sharp - John H
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>> I'm not a great fan of private education based on what I see and hear >> in the locality and on my own interaction with some of it's products. I don't >> think that makes me prejudiced. >> Go and visit a few Public schools with an open your mind. Last edited by: John H on Mon 13 Aug 12 at 13:19
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 14:02
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> and stoping some imaginary 'all must have prizes' ethos If it's imaginary, how come we all know about it? My wife is a teacher, she knows about it. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 18:29
Tia Sharp - teabelly
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There was something I read somewhere about how 90+ percent of 5 year olds are at genius level for their age and by the time they've finished school only 10% are considered at genuis level. Schooling is making children thick. They're taught to pass exams and nothing else. Daughter of one of my mum's friends complained about how pointless it was as anyone doing badly in exams re-took or redid coursework endless times and cribbed from model answers. No one dare point fingers at crap teachers. Everyone in a school can tell you which teachers shouldn't be there but nobody has the guts to get shot of them. The main thing school is good for is teaching young people how to deal with boredom and doing things you're not interested in. That's what you need to take away with you for working life as most of it will be dull but you have to do it anyway. Making lessons interesting has back fired as now the yoof of today think work is going to be interesting and rewarding. It isn't. It's dull and most people would rather not have to bother but if you want your own house and nice things then you have to. Too many think they can be on tv and it is positively encouraged in the role models for them to be as thick and chavvy as possible. When did they do a reality tv show about children achieving and working hard and then going to uni and then getting decent jobs? Never. It's always about idiots that do nothing of worth then become famous and earn lots of money. Apart from anything else. If you could earn a reasonable amount to live without having a boss wouldn't you? If you could harness this laziness and direct it and being self employed rather than on the dole you might get somewhere. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 18:51
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>Schooling is making children thick Not exactly. But it is failing to teach them to learn. It is taking away their inquisitive nature, and it is failing to motivate them. All of which would be unacceptable to caring and motivated parents. My children are in private education. It costs an arm and a leg. They'd take more but they fear it might stop you earning. The education; academic, artistic, sporting and pastoral care is outstanding. However, the school has an advantage; If you were one of the truly rich, you;d send your kids to one of the expensive classics. If you were not successful, then you couldn't afford to send your kids to them. Consequently, the parents are typically high achievers who nonetheless need to work; Driven high-performers who believe in the validity of achievement and improvement. My heart goes out to caring, motivated parents confronted with crap state education who cannot afford to pay to avoid it. It really does. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 12 Aug 12 at 18:51
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:04
Tia Sharp - henry k
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>> >>Schooling is making children thick >> >> Not exactly. But it is failing to teach them to learn. It is taking away >> their inquisitive nature, and it is failing to motivate them. >> My two learned what fun it is to learn before they went to school. Plus no TV or computer games upstairs. BBC Model B was in the dining room and family meals and lots of talking about everything. We were fortunate to visit many countries/cities as part of " learning is fun." On my business trips I always tried to return with some inexpensive item to interest the junior school children. e.g An ostrich egg, a big Green coconut, six feet or raw sugar cane. All things most would never ( in those days) see but costing me pennies. I always sent cards to my two when on business trips. Small effort from me but big results for all the kids. We were also fortunate that both won their way to out of borough Grammar schools ( after we turned down a scholarship to a private school) where both did extremely well . Ironically the local comp school half a mile away now has a 6th form and a growing reputation so our house is going up in value. > >> My children are in private education. It costs an arm and a leg. I was prepared to spend all we had but we were able to take the in between route. >> >> My heart goes out to caring, motivated parents confronted with crap state education who cannot afford to pay to avoid it. It really does. >> Me too. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 18:51
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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When I went to my first secondary school, having passed my eleven plus, the discipline was unreal. I learnt stuff, because I was sh!t scared not to. I could still make a good go of drawing a human heart now, some 38 years later, with no input in that field whatsoever in between...because the human biology teacher was so strict..and you didn't dare 'not comply'. Sadly, aged 12 or 13 is moved to an area where the only state school was a comprehensive. At that point my education started floundering...I can remember chucking ping pong balls around in physics lessons. How I walked out with 5 'O' levels I'll never know. There are bad teachers, there are good teachers...there is dogma in teaching, there are useless left wing principles that have crept in over many years e.g. no competitive spirit...but that is not the real problem ...the main thing wrong, by far....is LACK OF DISCIPLINE. Kids sod about and don't learn anything. Those that wish to can't, because of the pfd sodding about...so they come out under-achieving as well. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Aug 12 at 01:53
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 18:53
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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| +1 to Westpig. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 18:57
Tia Sharp - Runfer D'Hills
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Well now y'see. My grandfather was privately educated, my father was too. My elder brother and I were also. We all did OK but none would claim to be high fliers My son is at the local comp. His school report came back a couple of weeks ago with straight A1s in every ( yep every ) subject. He loves it there. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:18
Tia Sharp - Robin O'Reliant
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As I've mentioned a few times before I spent 20 years as a driving instructor. In that time I noticed a marked deterioration in the willingness of young people to cope with the hard slog. They were all right in the early stages when everything was new and they mastered the basics fairly quickly, but when they reached the inevitable plateau when hours of repetition was needed to make smaller but vital improvements you'd begin to lose them. What was noteable was being able to form a very good opinion of how willing to learn they would be if your first contact was with the parents. Garbage in garbage out applies just as much to human reproduction as it does to computer programming. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:33
Tia Sharp - diddy1234
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I think I must have been the last of the 'old school's tradition of school. I went to an all boys school where the Kane and slipper existed and they got used. being a student / pupil was like living in fear of the teachers and six formers (they could hand out punishments as well). however I think it done me the world of good. when I hear about the school these days it has turned soft. I just can't believe it. as for my 6 year old, home schooled by the wife and so far actually working out well. he's keenly interested in subjects and he's reading abilities are very forward for his age. if I had the money then yes I would go down the private schooling route. but I don't have the exorbitant fees so me and the wife chose the other option. regarding schools, I think something is seriously wrong. kids are being educated to be no one or nothing. there is a lot more to life than being number one. kids have to learn about loss and suffering as well. I know it sounds like gloom and doom but this is life. life is NOT 15 minutes of fame on big brother |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:58
Tia Sharp - Dutchie
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| From the age of ten to twelve I went to a private school.They call it school for sea going parents.My brother and me where there 24/7 for two years.We were allowed to go home once a week.We got caned regulary the headteacher was a bully and would hit you as looking at him.He got me one night because one of the night teachers reported me for not doing my prayers before going to sleep.He started to smack me about I be about twelve then and I hit back.It shocked him and he let me go.Caning or hitting never worked with me,you hit the violence in.I can't say I got educated at that school and I was lucky to end up in Tech School which I enjoyed for three years.To me education is how you behave in live.To have a good start when you are young is a great help.I used to train kids playing rugby league and there where some smashing kids with parents who didn't give a toss or who where taking drugs.I knew some of them wouldn't have a chance in live.No normal home to go back to.Sorry I have gone on a bit just some of my experiences. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:06
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Sadistic teachers, or very stupid ones who resort easily to the cane, are an ever-present risk with that system. Dutchie describes meeting one such. I do remember certain fellow-pupils, not really stupid but accident-prone and stubborn, getting across certain teachers and being flogged regularly. I tended to get away with work things as a rule but sometimes got flogged for inadvertent cheek, that sort of thing. But idleness too. I was fairly lucky in that respect I think. It was for my own good, or they thought it was. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:07
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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I went to a Grammar school and my experiences were exactly as Dutchie has said about his; incompetent teachers who were violent bullies of not worse. The whole situation was scary, oppresive and was the most miserable time of my life. When I was checking out schools for the girls I as extremely worried about that whole experience and putting them through it. The school I eventually chose is surprisingly similar to the building I was in, in age and style. However, the schooling is fortunately worlds apart. To my mind their school is what a State school should be. Its not elitist, it teaches children according ot their interest and ability, and it gets the most out of them. And I think the difficulties of the entire system are defined by his line "To me education is how you behave in live.To have a good start when you are young is a great help". I repeat what I said elsewhere; the state system is broken and my heart goes out to good parents who cannot afford to avoid it. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:17
Tia Sharp - Dutchie
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| Why should private education be better than comprehensive? Does it all boil down to money what you can afford to pay.Do kids go to school to be educated and critical thinking or brainwashed to fit in this system.To blame the failures on teachers is not fair.Education starts at home and if parents don't have the time and effort to be involved with their children,why bother having them.Regarding politics be it left or right they all sing from the same sheet in my opinion.We send young kids to war as if that is the answer to all our problems. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:21
Tia Sharp - Robin O'Reliant
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Dutchie, The sort of parents who pay to have their children educated privately will have made the effort to instill discipline and endevour in them in the first place. The local comp ends up with the ones who were allowed out half the night soon after they could walk. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:30
Tia Sharp - Dutchie
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That is a bit harsh Robin.The majority of children go to a comprehensive school so that means they would all end up failures.How many people can afford private schools? You end up with a class system which I don't like.Iam better than you type of thing you should know your place. Or you are judged the way you speak or accent you have. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:36
Tia Sharp - Old Navy
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>> Or you are judged the way you speak or accent you have. >> I think your Dutch accent is brilliant, my Dutch is rubbish. (as in non existent) :-) Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 12 Aug 12 at 19:36
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:37
Tia Sharp - Robin O'Reliant
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>> That is a bit harsh Robin.The majority of children go to a comprehensive school so >> that means they would all end up failures.How many people can afford private schools? >> The majority of kids who go to a comp are perfectly ok. Unfortunately for them and their teachers ALL the chavs go there too. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:42
Tia Sharp - diddy1234
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how true. it only takes one disruptive idiot to spoil the hard work 'some' teachers put into it. I had a really good teacher at school that could make a science subject on human feaces interesting. unfortunately good teachers are very hard to come by today. mostly brow beaten and demoralised by senseless health and safety and stupid subjects that are of no use in the real world. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:39
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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Dutchie, I think the State Education system is inadequate and harmful. I left school and worked. I have worked ever since and paid my own way. I have inherited nothing, I have been gifted nothing. Anything I have I personally have worked for. I have done difficult things in difficult places in difficult circumstances. I have almost certainly done things that you would not have been prepared to do. Because of this I can afford some things. I can afford for my children to be privately educated. But some people believe I should not spend that money as I wish because they can't or don't. Are you saying that I may not spend my money as I wish and must participate in a state scheme which is, in my view, inadequate because you don't like it if I don't? Here's a better idea, help fix the state system and then I won't want to spend my money on a private scheme. Then I'll spend it on something else which will offend the idle and indolent. And there is a difference between having an accent to be proud of and using it as an excuse for not putting any effort in. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:44
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>Does it all boil down to money what you can afford to pay. When the State system is failing, then sadly yes it does. There are people on the estate where Tia lived that are ONLY there because they cannot afford to escape. If they won the lottery they woudl be elsewhere. Immediately. >Do kids go to school to be educated and critical thinking or brainwashed to fit in this system. Educated in the private system, brainwashed into accepting mediocrity in the Srate system. >To blame the failures on teachers is not fair. I get blamed when the reuslts in an area I am responsible are not sufficient. Why shoulnd't teachers? >>if parents don't have the time and effort to be involved with their children,why bother having them. I truly do not know, but nonetheless they continue to do it. Politicians do whatever they believe is either the most likely to get them re-elected or least likely to stop it. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:45
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>>You end up with a class system which I don't like.Iam better than you type of >> thing you should know your place. I'd send my kids to private (day) school, if I could afford it. I can't, so I won't. I'm not looking for Little Lord Fauntleroy...but I would like a nice rounded, well educated kid. I'm not convinced that class thing actually exists outside of some social circles that I'd never be anywhere near anyway...so what does it matter? I think it's sad that there's no grammar schools available to all that are intelligent enough to pass the exam, proper streaming in the other schools, etc. Sad that kids can't learn at the level that suits them...because the system has decreed that it 'isn't fair'. Well pardon me, what is life like? |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:47
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>I'd send my kids to private (day) school, if I could afford it. I can't, so I won't. Just so's you know, about £25,000 per child per year + a scary amount of equipment, uniform, trips and goodness knows whatelse. >>I'm not convinced that class thing actually exists outside of some social circles Class exists in the mind of everybody who fears that someone else maybe above them. Nobody ever fears that a lower class exists. >>I think it's sad that there's no grammar schools available to all that are intelligent enough to pass the exam Me too, but the UK has got rather a lot of people who thought that was unfair. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:48
Tia Sharp - Bromptonaut
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>> Just so's you know, about £25,000 per child per year + a scary amount of >> equipment, uniform, trips and goodness knows whatelse. For two kids that's more than my gross salary. Good job we have decent true comprehensives round here. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 21:02
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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And its wrong that my children should get a better experience simply because of my money. But the solution is not the UK's preferred option of lowest common denominator by preventing any children getting an advantage and by stopping me spending as I wish. The solution is to fix state education so that ALL children get an advantage. And I'll snatch at the chance not to spend that money if the kids can have a decent experience through the state. And before anything else, lets remember that I already pay my share of state education, I don't get any discount for not using it. Anymore than I get a discount for not using the state health system. And anyway, they're not int eh UK system at this point. Interestingly a reasonable UK comprehensive would appear to be academically similar to a reasonable South American private school. A good UK private school would appear to be light yeears ahead of anything here, private or anything else. A friend of mine has one child who came up the South American System, and one child who came up the US system. She's pretty mean about both. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 21:09
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> A friend of mine has one child who came up the South American System, and one child who came up the US system. She's pretty mean about both. That's parents for you. Never satisfied. I have a good Chilean friend FMR. Quite a lot younger than me but a fine fellow. Indeed he came and had a pint with me in Victoria on Friday. He's a pretty suave international lounge lizard, nice as you could hope, but he says he wants to spend six months of every year in the (Chilean I think) Andes. Gave me a bit of 1,000 year old Peruvian pottery the other week. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 21:02
Tia Sharp - John H
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>> >> Just so's you know, about £25,000 per child per year + a scary amount >> of >> >> equipment, uniform, trips and goodness knows whatelse. >> >> For two kids that's more than my gross salary. Good job we have decent true >> comprehensives round here. >> Don't accept that figure as standard for all public schools. Investigate and find out what the cost is for schools near you. For all you know, your children may qualify for scholarships or full bursaries. You owe it to your children to give them the best education you can find and afford. It is a parental duty to do all the research and then decide. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 21:12
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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Never said it was a standard for anything, never mind all public schools. Undoubtedly less is possible, as is more. Its what I chose to pay balancing what I could give, and what I thought that it was important they should receive. >>You owe it to your children to give them the best education you can find and afford Absolutely. And I really really agree with.... >>It is a parental duty to do all the research and then decide. Its not as difficult or as intimidating as you think its going to be.And these schools ar businesses. They know you are a customer, and they'd like you to be one of theirs. They want you to be able to afford, and they want you to care about your children and to be committed to carrying the messages through at home. Essentially they would like you to be good, committed parents. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 11:35
Tia Sharp - Bromptonaut
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>> Don't accept that figure as standard for all public schools. >> >> Investigate and find out what the cost is for schools near you. For all you >> know, your children may qualify for scholarships or full bursaries. You owe it to your >> children to give them the best education you can find and afford. It is a >> parental duty to do all the research and then decide. My daughter is now at University and son about to start upper sixth; too late to contemplate alternatives. We're fortunate in Northants that, at least in the more rural areas, there are excellent comprehensives. Pretty much every child in the Primary goes to the comp with the same friends they've had since reception. There's a big social premium in that. Apart from an element of selection by affordability of village housing the schools are truly all ability comprehensives. As well as academic subjects there are vocational courses including motor car technology. That's how it should be. Unfortunately years of political meddling from all sides will ensure it fails to me a model for elsewhere. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 13 Aug 12 at 11:36
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:53
Tia Sharp - Focusless
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>> I think it's sad that there's no grammar schools available to all that are intelligent >> enough to pass the exam There are some still around, but of course they're very much in demand. Reading School (boys only, Kendrick for girls) gets 600+ sitting the entrance exam with approx 100 places available. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 14:18
Tia Sharp - BobbyG
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>>The sort of parents who pay to have their children educated privately will have made the effort to instill discipline and endevour in them in the first place. In some cases yes, but in many cases they are in private education because the parents are so far up their own behinds, or so preoccupied with their own jobs, that they don't have the time for their kids so will send them private. Especially if it is a trophy thing - can't have all the mum's meeting up in their Evoques outside the State school before they go on to the nail bar ?? |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:40
Tia Sharp - WillDeBeest
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In the very early days the headmaster of my children's school said something paraphrased as: "We do not reward effort; we like you for it, we admire you for it, but we reward achievement". And I think that's back to front. Plenty of children, me included when I was 10, can cruise through what's required of them at school with minimal effort and lap up the praise for being a 'high achiever'. Sooner or later reality bites and they meet something they really have to work at but by then they're stuck in their slacker habits and it's all too hard for them. No, I'm not a complete slacker, but I've turned into a contented mediocrity rather than a true high flier because I got away for too long with letting my attention flit from one thing to the next. Even now, when I've got something really important to do, I have to adopt elaborate measures to force myself to concentrate on it and not to wander off to read about cooking or coffee or cricket instead. I can see the same cruising tendency in Beestling Major, and I really hope between us we and the (good) state secondary school he starts next month will teach him that real effort is ultimately more rewarding than facile achievement. [I did pay enough attention to be able to correct No FM2R's grammar, though.] };---) Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Aug 12 at 01:53
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:43
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> Kids sod about and don't learn anything. Those that wish to can't, because of the pfd sodding about...so they come out under-achieving as well. I agree too Westpig. I was exceptionally idle when young and would always (instead of just sometimes) have got by as a smartass spiv and hooligan without the threat, and indeed reality, of corporal punishment. I went to eight schools and the academically competent ones used physical violence on idle little boys - heavy hairbrushes, canes that draw blood, the evil rubber cosh the Jesuits used to use, not to mention the time between incurring the sentence and the punishment itself - while the ones that didn't were pretty useless. Takes superlative teaching and small, intimate classes to do without violence. It's expensive. But you can't have violence now because the little carphounds have silly parents and ambulance chasing lawyers. We've had it. The Koreans deserve to win. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Aug 12 at 01:52
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 19:51
Tia Sharp - Old Navy
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>> The Koreans deserve to win. >> >> They already have. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:15
Tia Sharp - Lygonos
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Private education in Scotland is roughly £10,000pa. (secondary) Our local state primary school seems very good with well motivated and enthusiastic teachers - thus my kids go there. If the secondary can offer them the subject breadth and quality of teaching that the primary does then that's where they'll be going - if not I'd have no qualms about sending them outside the state system. But as we all know, REAL learning is what you know in between the academic subjects - this cannot simply be bought - it comes from the people and environment that the children are immersed in. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:18
Tia Sharp - Runfer D'Hills
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| Agreed Lygonos. My son is thriving in the state system. So far anyway. If that changes then maybe we'll have to look elsewhere but for now I can't see the point. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:20
Tia Sharp - Lygonos
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| In my experience schools rot from the top - great headteachers rarely run poor/failing schools. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 15:54
Tia Sharp - DP
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>> In my experience schools rot from the top - great headteachers rarely run poor/failing schools. That is certainly our experience at the school my daughters go to. It was an okay school 18 months ago. Not bad, not great. New head appointed, and the turnaround is dramatic. Several teachers have also gone since he joined, which he diplomatically stated were for reasons of "incompatibility of methods and ideas". Behaviour and discipline are excellent, there is an open door policy as far as parents are concerned, with the head always happy to speak to parents on the phone or meet with them face to face for any reasonable purpose. My daughters are doing well academically and socially at the school. I don't educate them privately because I can't afford to, but at the moment they are happy to go to school, have a thriving social circle of peers, and both are academically ahead of expectations for their age group. I can't really see how a school can deliver more. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 16:04
Tia Sharp - Bromptonaut
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The local comp has had four or five heads in the quarter century we've been around here. Different people with different approaches but all have been pretty good. The present one has done well in the league tables and tacked to the wind being an early adopter of academy status. He's a pretty forceful character though, several previously well thought of staff have gone and some of the SMT appointees are a bit too much in his own image. LAck of consultation with parents can be a problem ie on academy status and on recent changes to dress code. These places will need a strong board of governors prepared to hold heads to account - I'm not clear that's going to happen everywhere. Avenues of complaint, for example the Ombudsman are limited for acadamies and free schools. I'm glad we're at the end of our kids education. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:39
Tia Sharp - John H
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>> Agreed Lygonos. My son is thriving in the state system. So far anyway. If that >> changes then maybe we'll have to look elsewhere but for now I can't see the >> point. >> I suggest you visit a few Public schools in your area (on an open day or arrange a private visit). Then find out if your son thinks he is thriving or doing good enough for himself. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:40
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> My son is thriving in the state system. So far anyway. The secondary school I went to A, now has a poor reputation. The one in the area we now live B, has an excellent reputation, as does a neighbouring one C. When we moved from London to Devon, the area we wished to live in was mostly covered by A and B, with an outside chance of C. When looking at properties to buy, area A was totally off the radar, an absolute no-no...and some of my relatives could not understand our thinking, not at all...they thought we were narrowing down our options too much. We didn't. Our children's education is too important to us. One of the reasons why I'd willingly 'chin' the clown(s) who have allowed our once great education system to fall to what it is now. Anyone see the documentary a couple of years back, the one where the ex-teacher went and filmed what was really going on...the lady that then got banned from teaching?...for confirming what a lot of us thought anyway. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:43
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>When looking at properties to buy, area A was totally off the radar, an absolute no-no...and some of my relatives could not understand our thinking, not at all...they thought we were narrowing down our options too much. I've had that conversation; when one considers what private education costs, then if one can move next to an acceptable state school, you could afford a house value about £600,000 higher. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:18
Tia Sharp - henry k
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>> >> The Koreans deserve to win. >> They already have. >> The Japanese and an expresion "Pass on four, fail on five" or something very similar. It meant that kids having only four hours sleep per night should pass their exams but those on five would fail. I have now found some details. boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=555610 Well, it's definitely an actual expression: 四当五落 or 4当5落 (yon tou go raku), literally "four pass, five fail." Let me share with you another Japanese expression: 出る釘は打たれる 。(Deru kugi wa utareru.) "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down." A couple of useful items ? Now children back to work. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:30
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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Agree with several of those comments whole heartedly, but find this idea strange; >>"Pass on four, fail on five" One of mine is crap on anything less that 10 hours sleep. You can't get a sensible word out of her, and if you get anything it'll be crabby. The other is a little different, but even for her less that 8 hours is a complete no-no. I also believe that all study is bad. There's so much more you need to learn than academic lessons. That's one of the reasons that school needs to be efficient to allow time for all the other good stuff. Between them my children play drums, guitar, violin, recorder, play hockey, netball, rounders and various athletic activities, do drama, reading art and singing. They surf, ski, board, hunt (yes, the hunting Blair doesn't like), fish, shoot, paint and rock climb. One has a consuming interest in natural history and the other in dance. One speaks Spanish and English, the other Portuguese, Spanish and English. And soo much more. There's no way they could do all of that without a good night's sleep and an education that takes no more time than it needs to. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 12 Aug 12 at 20:31
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:51
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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Schools go up and down, public schools as well as comprehensives. Holland Park Comprehensive was thought the bees' knees by some people back in the sixties (when, come to think of it, some lefty buddies of mine were teaching there). Tony Benn sent his sons there and so did lots of others. I know someone who went there in those days and it had clearly done him no harm at all. By the time my youngest daughter went there it was another matter though. At first she though it was great. Almost like university after the stifling idiocy of her (once good) local CofE primary. Quite soon she noticed the disruptive idiot behaviour of some of her classmates and took against the place. She kept her head down and was OK in the end. Does a great black hooligan tooth-sucking act and can pass in any company. But some of her time was wasted there and at primary school. It's pretty normal, but waste is waste. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 12 Aug 12 at 20:53
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 20:55
Tia Sharp - Dutchie
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| Your children have done very well FM.Our eldest son was top of his class as a youngster.He used to love to play crickett,played football and very sharp in conversation.Unfortenately a mentall illness at seventeen put a stop to that.He is 43 now and lives in a nice flat on his own.But what could have been.Middle son has always been a rebel top rugby player had the talent but didn't want to train.He worked for mind.Daughter is a CPN nurse lovely girl very caring.I have always encouraged all three of them whatever they wanted to do.We are always there to help them which is a parents responsibility in my opinion. |
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New Sun 12 Aug 12 21:07
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>But what could have been. You don't need my sympathy, but I feel for you. However, it sounds like you've introduced three competent human beings into the world who bring their own character and balance and supported them in their endeavours. And that's pretty much what its all about. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 14:26
Tia Sharp - Ambo
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| "All study is bad". I believe it was S.American educationist Paolo Friere who spoke of children having to interrupt their education to go to school |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 16:11
Tia Sharp - DP
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>> 出る釘は打たれる 。(Deru kugi wa utareru.) "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down." >> The Koreans have something similar, which translates to "Sharp stones get hammered flat". The education system is concerned with facts, and parrot fashion learning. It does not cater for freedom of thought or expression. It is a one size fits all approach, with parents expected to pay for external tuition to keep their kids up to speed with the pace of the class. I've worked for Far Eastern companies since 2005, and got to know a lot of Japanese and Koreans in both a professional and social capacity. Technically, and I daresay academically, these people are brilliant. Their knowledge and capacity for knowledge is incredibly impressive. For disciplines that involve assimilation of hard facts they are incredible. Which is why they are such good engineers, among other things, I suspect. What they are hopeless at, is independent thought, or thinking on their feet. They are terrified of authority, cannot or will not challenge anything that trickles down from above, however ridiculous it might be, and they simply refuse to do anything that someone two levels higher in the organisation hasn't approved in triplicate. I found the Japanese much more trusting and welcoming of Westerners, and certainly they seemed to value our perspective, and our way of doing things as a good complement to their own. They were quite happy to delegate decision making, or to welcome non-Japanese input into it, where it would be appropriately credited. The Japanese also have a wonderfully disarming sense of respect, and a fantastic, often self deprecating sense of humour. The Koreans are by nature very distrustful of anyone who isn't Korean. Much harder work for a Westerner. Last edited by: DP on Mon 13 Aug 12 at 16:15
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 16:28
Tia Sharp - Armel Coussine
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>> The Japanese also have a wonderfully disarming sense of respect, and a fantastic, often self deprecating sense of humour. Yes, the Japanese have a very charming side. Some years ago I dropped my ballpoint in the bank. While I was faffing around with my hands full of bits of paper, chequebooks and so on, a very pretty teenage Japanese tourist girl picked it up for me. When I inclined my head slightly in gratitude, she interpreted the movement as a polite bow so, with a dazzling smile, bowed deeply to the old buffer. Charming! We bowed smilingly to each other two or three times to the slight consternation of the rest of the queue. Wasn't an everyday scene even in Ladbroke Grove. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 17:02
Tia Sharp - henry k
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>>What they are hopeless at, is independent thought, or thinking on their feet. They are terrified of authority, cannot or will not challenge anything that trickles down from above, however ridiculous it might be, and they simply refuse to do anything that someone two levels higher in the organisation hasn't approved in triplicate. >> A couple of examples of their approach. Our Japanese custimer told us an IT job would take 300 mandays. We sucked our teeth and came up with a figure of three days. No prizes for which the face saving the answer was. Soon after a contract with the Koreans was signed a thick envelope arrived on my desk with A3 sheets of task after task re testing software plus an expectation of a six long days week. I hate to think how long the lists took to create but they had jumped the gun as they did not know the product or implementation. I deep filed the lot as it was to much of a distraction to even study. I found it a very strange approach to the job. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 17:24
Tia Sharp - DP
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>> Soon after a contract with the Koreans was signed a thick envelope arrived on my >> desk with A3 sheets of task after task re testing software plus an expectation of >> a six long days week. This does not surprise me. Koreans are really not very good at thinking outside of a non-Korean environment. Had this been issued to a Korean, it would have simply been a given that someone would have done this without questioning the validity or purpose of it, or the six day week that would be required. I see this kind of thing with almost every project I am involved with. The art of pushing back subtly but assertively is one you learn quickly in a Korean company, or else it buries you. >> I hate to think how long the lists took to create but they had jumped >> the gun as they did not know the product or implementation. The Koreans have a saying "palli palli" which literally means "hurry hurry". Once a decision has been made, the expectation is that it should be implemented yesterday. Unfortunately, this often comes before anyone has bothered to understand the detail of a project, or the implications of it. I have seen projects implemented, get almost to completion stage, and then get reversed / undone at the last minute, when someone realises a cock-up or issue that would have been plainly obvious at the beginning had they taken the time to think about what they were doing. They are amazing "doers", but very poor "thinkers". >> I deep filed the lot as it was to much of a distraction to even >> study. >> I found it a very strange approach to the job. The often slavish Korean approach to work means they are snowed under with a hundred more tasks at any one time that they can reasonably deal with, meaning they are also often very disorganised. The result is that you can often get away with this, and nobody even notices ;-). I've been stalling on a completely unnecessary intranet site security mod which is going to take me ages. Had to be done yesterday six months ago. I haven't done anything about it. If they chase you, do it, but very often they often don't, or have moved on to something else which is a higher priority. I've heard nothing about this since the original request. Last edited by: DP on Mon 13 Aug 12 at 17:29
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 14:21
Tia Sharp - BobbyG
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If my child had gone missing and the police had turned up and told me that it is standard procedure in all missing cases to search the domicile house first, then they would be told to search away. Unless someone has something to hide, I cannot see why anyone would object to the search. I realise that different sizes and types of house may make the search easier or harder but to have to pussy foot around at that early stage is nonsense. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 14:28
Tia Sharp - Ambo
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| I shuld havwe written Freire, Brazilian. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 15:01
Tia Sharp - Lygonos
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The State spends around £5k pa per secondary school pupil. Private ("Public") schooling costs £10k and upwards. Go figure. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 15:19
Tia Sharp - John H
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>> The State spends around £5k pa per secondary school pupil. >> >> Private ("Public") schooling costs £10k and upwards. >> >> Go figure. >> A visit to a NHS dentist, if you can find one, costs £20 or so for a checkup. A visit to a private dentist costs £50 or more. A travel vaccination that can be had free via the NHS will cost upwards of £50 at a private GP. www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Travel-immunisation/Pages/Getting-travel-vaccinations.aspx Go figure. Some people, including myself, support the idea of giving that £5k or whatever of state spend in the form of a voucher to the parent(s) and give them the freedom to choose which school to spend that voucher in. If they want, they can choose to spend it at a private school and top up the shortfall with a bursary, scholarship or fund it themselves. The state school teaching unions vehemently oppose the idea. They even oppose the new breed of Free schools that are sprouting up in England. Go figure. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 15:41
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>support the idea of giving that £5k or whatever of state spend in the form of a voucher to the parent(s) It'll never happen. State Education, like State Healthcare, relies on some people paying for a service and then never using it. If they give the £5k away then they'll have less money but costs won't go down. And if it encourages more people to leave the state system then it'll get worse. And the last thing the unions are going to do is support anything which might make them and their performance more visible. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 15:46
Tia Sharp - Lygonos
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I myself attended a private secondary, initally with the aid of the "Assisted Places Scheme", which worked in a similar manner as above, except the value of the award was dependent upon parental income. I think the scheme ended towards the end of my education. I think it was a good scheme (funnily enough!) The problem in implementation is that if the State currently gave £5k pa to the 7% of pupils in private schooling it would mean pretty hefty cuts for the other 93%. Good idea, but when to implement? The same applies to similar ideas for healthcare, although I am wary of medics attracting payments for performing operations/investigations etc - the temptation to justify things that were otherwise superfluous (or unnecessary) may be too high for some greedy individuals. By-and-large hospital consultants make the same money whether they do 1000 procedures or 10 so I trust their judgement a little more than a "pay-per-item" system. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 16:12
Tia Sharp - Bromptonaut
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Education vouchers have been a pipe dream of Tory education ministers as far back as Keith Joseph. As well as other problems above they'd impose a pretty hefty administrative overhead. Easier now perhaps where IT allows virtual vouchers but still a lot of work, particularly for kids who move around or chop/change from state to private and back again. And how long before the nefarious co-operate with the unscrupulous to make a killing on fiddles. Of course in no time at all the voucher would only cover the 'basics'. Anything that can be made an extra and charged for will be. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 18:56
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> Education vouchers have been a pipe dream of Tory education ministers as far back as >> Keith Joseph. You don't need vouchers. You could give a tax break for those families that don't use State schools and/or the health service. More people would then slip in to the private education/health systems, freeing up space and resources in the publicly funded ones, which would go some way to offsetting the costs of the tax break. The politics of envy will block it. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 19:06
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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Neither the health service nor the education system can currently manage without the financial contribution of those that do not use them. Far from freeing up resources, it would reduce the resource available. There is also the pragmatic difficulty of changing or differing status. .e. what does someone who is eligible to use the NHS but doesn't not offered the same discount? What happens if someone has had the discount all their life, but at age 90 and now poor needs extremely expensive NHS care? |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 19:14
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> Neither the health service nor the education system can currently manage without the financial contribution >> of those that do not use them. >> >> Far from freeing up resources, it would reduce the resource available. You've misunderstood me. You'd still contribute to the NHS and schools, but with a tax break, not as much. The tax break might not be that great...but..it would allow more people to consider going private. Those that do consider private, won't be using public (or in the case of the NHS, as much, presumably A&E would still be used). >> >> There is also the pragmatic difficulty of changing or differing status. .e. what does someone >> who is eligible to use the NHS but doesn't not offered the same discount? What >> happens if someone has had the discount all their life, but at age 90 and >> now poor needs extremely expensive NHS care? You'd get a tax break if you proved you had a private health scheme. No scheme = no tax break. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 19:08
Tia Sharp - sooty123
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Only problem then is who helps the poor? Or even pays for it? As the wealthy leave the system with a rebate in hand there will be less money left to help those, generally speaking, who are poorer and have worse health, it's not quite the case of freeing up resources. The system needs wealthy healthy people to pay for poorer sickler people.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 13 Aug 12 at 19:10
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 19:15
Tia Sharp - Westpig
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>> Only problem then is who helps the poor? Or even pays for it? As the >> wealthy leave the system with a rebate in hand there will be less money left >> to help those, generally speaking, who are poorer and have worse health, it's not quite >> the case of freeing up resources. The system needs wealthy healthy people to pay for >> poorer sickler people. It's not an opt out, it's a small rebate via tax. The wealthy still pay tax to cover the poor. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 19:20
Tia Sharp - sooty123
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| They would be paying less tax, that's less money there is to spend. It doesn't matter what it's called, it's less money. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 19:37
Tia Sharp - Manatee
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It's just an unworkable idea which is why it never happened. What about the people with no children at all? Wouldn't they think they were just as deserving of a rebate? And of course the majority of the rebates would go to better off people. It's the same sort of logic that says if you don't claim on your insurance you should get the premium back. Rather than beggar about with the tax system the effort should go into making schools work, which also means getting parents to support their children's educational needs. It's funny how schools work a lot better when the parents care about the child's education. Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 13 Aug 12 at 19:38
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 20:30
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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Agreed. And the other side is that one should seperate the two issues. I pay NI, Tax or whatever as my contribution to living in that society. And to be fair, when I'm not I either pay nothing or less. That is what I *SHOULD* pay in return for that society and I do. If on top of that I decide to pay for private health and/or education then that is my choice. It does not, however, absolve me of my responsiblitiy to the state, and nor should it. And, because its Britain, people who either cannot or choose not to spend that extra, would like to change the law or possiblities to prevent me doing so. And what the leftie prats* don't get, is that I do more good for those public services because I *don't* use them then they do by using them. * "Leftie prats" does not describe those intelligent or educated souls who have political beliefs towards the left hand end of the spectrum, they're merely wrong. It describes that group of idiots who believe that the rest of the world should be forced into adhering to their under-achieving, envious, snivelling world of do nothing so that they don't have to answer for their own inadequacies. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 21:12
Tia Sharp - Lygonos
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>>that group of idiots who believe that the rest of the world should be forced into adhering to their under-achieving, envious, snivelling world of do nothing so that they don't have to answer for their own inadequacies. Plenty of fence-sitters and right-wingers occupy similar territory. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 21:13
Tia Sharp - No FM2R
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>>Plenty of fence-sitters and right-wingers occupy similar territory True. I was trying to get at that by disassociating "leftie" from political alliegance. |
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New Mon 13 Aug 12 21:16
Tia Sharp - Lygonos
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I suppose many 'rightists' will blame their joblessness/crappy life on all them immigrants. The irony that some foreigner who can't speak English can get a 40hr+/wk job and pay their way, while they sit in squalour watching Jezza smoking knock-off tabs and drinking Lucozade ("for energy") is lost on them. |
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New Tue 14 Aug 12 09:35
Tia Sharp - teabelly
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>> I suppose many 'rightists' will blame their joblessness/crappy life on all them immigrants. >> >> The irony that some foreigner who can't speak English can get a 40hr+/wk job and >> pay their way, while they sit in squalour watching Jezza smoking knock-off tabs and drinking >> Lucozade ("for energy") is lost on them. >> The immigrant probably doesn't waste time letting jobcentre plus attempt to get them into work... |
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