vimeo.com/48634936
For those who are interested. Give it a couple of minutes to download because those pauses are very annoying.
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AC, maybe better to give some preamble about the subject rather than just a link, especially for those of us at work and not sure if want to click links??
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From the site which has a video (obviously because it's Vimeo):
Richard Pankhurst, son of Sylvia Pankhurst (English campaigner for the suffragist movement in the United Kingdom and anti-fascist campaigner) and his wife Rita attended today's demonstration "Stop celebrating Fas...
cist war criminals" in front of the Italian Embassy, in protest against the building of a mausoleum and memorial park dedicated to the Fascist war criminal Rodolfo Graziani, responsible for massacres and the use of chemical weapons against Lybians and Ethiopians A formal petition was handed to the Ambassador's Residence to demand an apology from the Italian Government, to remove all allusiones to Grazziani from the Memorial, to dedicate the memorial to all those who fought against Fascism, and to demand to install a specific memorial at the site to commemorate those Africans who died resisting Italian invasion.
We will publish photos and videos of the event shortly.
SIGN THE PETITION: change.org/petitions/mayor-of-affile-stop-celebrating-fascist-war-crim
inals
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 3 Sep 12 at 14:11
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Film of a protest meeting in front of the Italian Embassy in London over plans to commemorate (with a statue in his home town) an Italian general whose behaviour in Ethiopia in the thirties and forties identifies him as a disgusting fascist hyena, responsible for thousands of murders of innocent people.
The link is a friend's and won't be harmful.
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For those at work, the video doesn't start automatically.
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I find it strange that there is still a massive column in Rome honouring Mussolini.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Mussolini_Dux_Column.jpg
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>>.......... especially for those of us at work and not sure if want to click links??
>>
When I was working the IT department used to monitor internet usage. Woe betide anyone caught during working hours using the internet on a company computer for anything other than company business.
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>> Woe betide anyone caught during working hours using the internet on a company computer for anything other than company business.
Anyone to whom that applies will know about it. What I meant about the link was that it wasn't a porn link or one that would demand money. However some employers might think it a bit lefty (although disapproval of mass murder by fascists isn't restricted to people of left-wing views).
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.......and in Britain, a bust of Tony Blair is being made and will be placed in the House of Commons.
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There there Roger.
It's true that politicians are seldom winsome, but there's a difference between a Tony Blair and a mass-murdering fascist general. Surely you can see that, even if these matters are a bit complicated and times have changed since the thirties?
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>>there's a difference between a Tony Blair and a mass-murdering fascist general
Their address?
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difference between a Tony Blair
>> and a mass-murdering fascist general.
Of course there is:
One is open and honest and makes no pretence about it.
The other lies and kills more.
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Few western executive leaders retire without blood on their hands, and quite often hands dripping with blood. It depends partly on the time they live in, but bloodshed is never lacking where our species is concerned.
These leaders get statues as their equally or even more bloodstained predecessors did. It's a way of marking history.
Hands-on mass murderers are another matter. Whitewashing them is too blatant to be allowed.
But look, chaps, if you don't get it you don't. I'm sure your human sympathy does you credit.
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>>I'm sure your human sympathy does you credit.
Oh, sorry, I don't sympathise with either Blair or Graziani.
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r
>> and a mass-murdering fascist general. Surely you can see that, even if these matters are
>> a bit complicated and times have changed since the thirties?
>>
Not that much.
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 3 Sep 12 at 18:09
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In the 1930s we had various minor wars mainly Ireland and the Middle East.
The Italians invaded Ethiopia and Germany reversed its WW1 territorial losses..
Post WW2 the US has invaded: Korea, Vietnam, Granada,Iraq and Afghanistan.
The UK has fought wars in : N Ireland, Suez, Kenya, Aden, Falklands, various African states, Iraq etc...
Yes things have changed since the 1930s.. With modern equipment ranging from AK47s to laser guided missiles, war has become more efficient at killing people.
See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_wars
You must understand the global arms industry needs wars and the threat of wars to sell weapons..(see Russia and Syria.. The US and Israel etc The UK and Saudi )
Last edited by: madf on Mon 3 Sep 12 at 18:29
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theres a section of rome that has mussolinni stamped all over it , very modern and symetric .. my swmbob showed me around there about 6 years ago i was quite impressed
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There's a lot of thirties modernist architecture in Italy, some of the best. Cinecittá just outside Rome for example. That might be what you saw zookeeper.
The Victor Emmanuel monument in Rome is Mussolini's doing too, but not Mussolinist exactly. The Duce (so called) was a preposterous figure but not all bad compared to Certain Others in Northern European Countries.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 3 Sep 12 at 20:30
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I am sure the French would sign a petition calling for the removal of Nelson from Trafalgar Square:(which they would want renamed of course)
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Interesting link A.C. How many fascist Germans ended up working for and started the C.I.A.
Crooks in action.The list is endless.The world is a strange place.Fascisme where did it come from? Or is it just a name like Communism.Words we make up, evil people are evil people.
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They aren't just names Dutchie. They mean different things. They have some characteristics in common but they aren't the same. They have different intellectual genealogies and different aims.
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AFAIK, The modern word "Fascist" and its derivatives come from the Roman "Fasces".
These were composed of bundles of sticks wrapped around axes, represented law and order in ancient Rome and were carried over the shoulders of the attendants to the Senator who was currently charged with public order. (I think)
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fascist
1921, from It. partito nazionale fascista, the anti-communist political movement organized 1919 under Benito Mussolini (1883-1945); from It. fascio "group, association," lit. "bundle." Like fascism, originally used in English in its Italian form, as an Italian word. [Fowler: "Whether this full anglicization
of the words is worth while cannot be decided till we know whether the things are to be temporary or permanent in England" -- probably an addition to the 1930 reprint, retained in 1944 U.S. edition.] Fasci "groups of men organized for political purposes" had been a feature of Sicily since c.1895; the 20c. sense probably influenced by the Roman fasces (q.v.) which became the party symbol. Related: Fascistic.
fas·ces
noun ( usually used with a singular verb )
a bundle of rods containing an ax with the blade projecting, borne before Roman magistrates as an emblem of official power.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascist
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>> there's a difference between a Tony Blair
>> and a mass-murdering fascist general.
>>
And somewhere in between comes Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris.
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So what exactly is fascism? A convenient insult, of course, but how is it defined? One way is to see what characteristics are common to states we call fascist, yet how far back can we go for the term to apply meaningfully? The Roman Empire, for example, shared totalitarianism, militarism, slavery, religious/mythical mumbo-jumbo and leader-worship with regimes that this country engaged with in the 20th. Century.
Actually, the heart of Mussolini's Syndicalism, a negotiating alliance of goverment, industriaists and trade unions, looked quite promising but I believe it only lasted a few months.
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>> Syndicalism, a negotiating alliance of goverment, industriaists and trade unions, looked quite promising but I believe it only lasted a few months.
Indeed draiber. The cult of the leader makes these regimes and their followers stupid, and the pursuit of internal enemies - whether there are any or not - makes them horrible. The Italian fascists at the start were far less downright malevolent than the Nazis. But they were quite nasty enough to put off the majority of Italians after a while.
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The greater Italian people are naturally fascist by history, birth and inclination, perfectly happy to follow any extravagantly uniformed leader and army while times are good. Its no surprise they should erect a statue (they love their statues) to a fancy uniform bedecked with dubiously earned medals, the only surprise is why anyone in the UK should give a stuff about what gets put up in some backwoods Italian square, for whatever reason.
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That is not only Italian people Zero.Under the right circumstances any race will follow a certain leader being it fascist or not.German people are in general a intelligent race they still followed Hitler spouting his venom.In Russia Puting was a ex KGB man not what you call a charity organisation he has plenty of followers.
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Any country that can elect Berlusconi as a PM - not once but several times - is clearly full of people whose outlook on life is rather different from anyone else.
Last edited by: madf on Tue 4 Sep 12 at 13:08
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Peoples are not different from each other that is a myth.We are having lots of austerity cuts in the UK and it is accepted.I am alright Jack why should I care attitude untill its happening to onesself.The difference is a nations history and the different laws of the land.
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>> The greater Italian people are naturally fascist by history, birth and inclination, perfectly happy to follow any extravagantly uniformed leader and army while times are good.
That's a bold statement Zero. Pity it's also xenophobic garbage.
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>>Pity it's also xenophobic garbage.
>>
I think for the statement to even begin to be true we would need to see other examples from history of the alleged Italian propensity to prefer fascistic rulers.
There were the Romans of course - fascists ?
Then for hunderds of years there was no such thing as Italy, just lots of warring states.
I don't see any incipient fascist tendencies there.
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>> There were the Romans of course - fascists ?
In some respects yes, certainly the Republic and the Empire have provided Facism and Facist leaders with its inspiration.
Italians have been fascist leaning for at least the last 200 years, the ideology is endemic in all of its civil infrastructure and institutions. They love it, plenty of room to grow lots of little Mussolini's in all layers of civil control.
Anyway, as I said, why should we give a fig about some little statue in some fly hole in Italy?
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 4 Sep 12 at 16:27
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>> as I said, why should we give a fig about some little statue in some fly hole in Italy?
Because we give a fig about the falsification of history and the whitewashing of pigs? Because we give a fig for the victims of tinpot Italian imperialism as well as those of tinpot British imperialism? Because we don't all automatically regard small Italian towns as 'fly holes' in no way comparable to East Ham or Surrey?
Lots of reasons really. Dunno what's the matter with you sometimes Zero. You are usually on the ball.
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>> So what exactly is fascism? A convenient insult, of course, but how is it defined?
"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. . . .
Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? . . . basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make."
("What is Fascism?" by George Orwell)
orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc
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>> the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. . . .
... as of course is the term 'the people', especially in the case of a European country cobbled together out of a number of smaller nations, and with huge variations in class and lifestyle across the country. That is what makes it unwise to generalise about a nation's characteristics - cowardice, impulsiveness, pretentiousness and so on. It's a question of image rather than character.
Although Marx and Engels used the term 'the people' they also started what became a Leninist obsession with dividing populations up by class. 'The people' are a mixed bag including all sorts of bourgeois and pro-bourgeois elements. 'The proletariat' - the mass of exploited wage-slaves both skilled and unskilled - could seem to represent a solid interest bloc. Obviously those interests had to be represented by executives who, hey presto!, somehow became a new, er, class...
Utopian schemes don't work for long, neither moronic ones like fascism/nazism nor slightly more rational ones like 'communism'. Better the embarrassing mishmash you've got than some fine new scheme that will quickly make everything worse after initial promise.
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I don't mean to imply that some regimes don't need to be overthrown and replaced. Obviously sometimes they become intolerable to enough of their citizens to precipitate a revolution, putsch or whatever. But people are then stuck with cobbling a new system together, and it isn't easy.
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>>... as of course is the term 'the people', especially in the case of a European country cobbled together out of a number of smaller nations, and with huge variations in class and lifestyle across the country.>>
That is precisely the problem with the failing political experiment known as the "European Union" - only of course, on a much larger scale and with much more disparate peoples involved.
I hadn't got you down as a Euro-sceptic, AC!
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>> I hadn't got you down as a Euro-sceptic
When I get down to the small print I usually find I am an everything-sceptic, or rather sceptic. Like others I am prone to moments of enthusiasm but they usually end in disappointment.
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Bust and Blair in the same sentence. Well there's a thing...
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Armel, you should be grateful to be able to afford carpets to sweep things under. When I was young we only had lino and it was difficult to sweep anything under it.
:-D
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You were lucky, all we had was peg rugs.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 07:27
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Not if you had a Labrador that could 'lift' those foot square tiles bedded in bitumen. How she did it I don't know.
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Remember Gastropod that I was raised in the forties and fifties and know lino in all its greasy, fragile, dirty-undersided beauty.
In the fifties though one of my parents' better post-related houses was floored largely with battleship deck lino, surplus doubtless to navy requirements given the disappearance of battleships. It was shiny chocolate brown stuff three times as thick as normal lino, and much better of course.
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Still being swept under the carpet - BobbyG
