Tricky and embarrassing situation.
A couple of years ago, my wife and I decided that we should make wills. Since neither of us have had much in the way of legal dealings in recent years, we went to visit a firm of solicitors of good repute in a nearby town. We spoke to the partner who deals with will about our requirements, and he said that he would work on it.
The problem was that my wife just didn't feel comfortable with the solicitor. Probably something to do with the fact that his office looked like something from the 1950s. When we got the draft wills and estimated bill, I thought that it was just a matter of going back and signing. But my wife didn't really want to.
Anyway, my wife has now gotten in touch with a big firm of solicitors in Edinburgh about wills. They have sent us forms to fill in about our details and wishes.
Clearly, going ahead with the original solicitor doesn't look like it is going to happen. However, we have not paid him a penny for the work he did two years ago. Nor have I told him we don't plan to go ahead. I take it that when I do so, he will bill us. Is this correct?
And would it be helpful to show the draft wills and other documents that he drew up to the Edinburgh solicitors?
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Nah forget the originals and move on. They may chase you for the original consultation if Mr Cratchett finds his quill but cross that bridge when you come to it.
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I'd probably just leave it.
>>And would it be helpful to show the draft wills and other documents that he drew up to the Edinburgh solicitors?
For me that would be a step over the line. If you've spoken to the first solicitor, and/or paid him something, then why not. But if you haven't, then this seems like getting some advantage out of the first guy that you shouldn't.
I'd be a bit uncomfortable.
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I agree that if I have not paid the first solicitor anything, I can't show the documents to the new solicitor. But if he does ask for payment, what then?
More basically, at some stage, politeness demands that I speak to the first solicitor. What do I say?
Last edited by: tyro on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 15:43
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Let me get this right, TWO years ago?
Forget him, and any pretext of politeness, it all goes out of the window. Clearly he is useless if he couldn't follow up to see if your were going to complete it, or even chase for payment!
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Wait until HE contacts you. Don't hold your breath.
(Crossed with Zero's post)
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 15:45
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Tell him the wife said no. Can't do any harm. I'm sure he's heard worse.
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I'd would probably simply tell him that I'd decided to take another path. And in my mind would think that the chosen path was not his business.
I wouldn't mind offering him a little for his work, but I wouldn't be paying anything like the fee would have been had the work been completed.
I rather suspect that he's assumed you didn't like the estimate and have gone away. Which I also suspect happens quite frequently.
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>> More basically, at some stage, politeness demands that I speak to the first solicitor. What
>> do I say?
A few years back, after my night in the cells on a D&D, I paid a considerable amount or dosh to a lawyer for his work in getting the case thrown out.
It was all technicalities - I'll be the first to admit I had had a few.
Anyways, later on, a friend was also nicked - again, found to be OTL, but marginal.
I asked the lawyer if I could show all the paperwork to my friend - and my friend's lawyers -, as they might gleen some knowledge or legal chicanery from it.
My brief's answer was simple: "You paid for it, use it."
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Don't approach the original one - he will almost certainly bill you for the original. New will keep schtum.
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>> Don't approach the original one -
Are you sure? That doesn't seem polite or ethical.
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Put P&E on hold. He's forgotten about you now - no need to wake him up...move on !
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>> Put P&E on hold.
>>
Sorry, but I don't really think I can do that.
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>> >> Put P&E on hold.
>> >>
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't really think I can do that.
Make your wife pay for both then.
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>> >> Don't approach the original one -
>>
>> Are you sure? That doesn't seem polite or ethical.
>>
>>
So, to summarise, your two questions are:
1. Nor have I told him we don't plan to go ahead. I take it that when I do so, he will bill us. Is this correct?
2. And would it be helpful to show the draft wills and other documents that he drew up to the Edinburgh solicitors?
Apart from repeating the questions for the benefit of those you directed it at ("One for the lawyers"), sorry, but I have no answer for you as IANAL.
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Is Scotish law in relation to wills/probate substantially similar to that in England and Wales?
Assuming it is then I suspect drafting 'mirror' wills for a married couple is pretty much a template exercise and is not actually going to take much time or skill. The solicitor concerned will presumably get reports from his clerks about clients/matters that are 'active' and take a view on which are worth following up.
I'd have thought draft wills where the client has gone quiet would be very low on his prioroty list. Perhaps one chase up letter or phone call just to make sure you've had stuff. Anything more risks him loosing more time on a fee that's already a dead loss.
I'd just move on. If by some mischance it's slipped between the slats at lawyer one and he chases you'll have to work out an explanation but 'we started again with a new firm after a re-think' is as good as he'll get.
I think courtesy means you keep his papers to yourselves though.
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Anyone who does not invoice for work completed (or not completed) two years ago is not competent. You don't want to use them and not pay them as they have done nothing for you. You have received nothing from them. How do you know they have actually done anything? Odds on they have not.
No work = no fee.
No need for any guilt.
If you mention it to them, they may very well do the work NOW (as the file is probably lost) and charge you - for something you neither want or need.
When I was actually working, we were under-invoiced by a supplier to the tune of several hundred thousand pounds. We said nothing as it is not the customer's job to correct his supplier's invoicing - unless it is overcharging.
They never sorted it. I have no guilt on the matter. They went bust some seven years later..
Last edited by: madf on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 16:21
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Suspect it's not a matter of competence but of business sense. There's a good proportion of these sort of instructions go quiet.
Not worth the effort of chasing them.
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You have received nothing from them.
As stated above, I did receive draft wills, and some other documentation that he had drawn up in order to fit in with some complications - i.e. this wasn't quite your average straight-forward will.
I should add that here is something that I omitted to say because I didn't think that it was relevant. However, it seems it is.
They did get back to me about 6 or 7 months later, in May 2011. I telephoned them in response, and said that I did intend to go ahead with the wills. (In this, I underestimated my wife's uneasiness.) OK - they have not chased me up in the last 12 months - but that might be politeness on their part. After all, I did say that I intended to go ahead. Which is why I really do feel obliged to contact them in the event of not going ahead.
Last edited by: tyro on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 16:38
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If the wills do what you want them to do, I don't see how it is possible to be "comfortable" or "uncomfortable" with them.
Do you mean your wife suspects that the drafts do not in fact reflect your wishes? Does she think they are flawed in some way? Not in accordance with correct legal practice and will therefore fail when the crunch comes?
I can't see how you can have any doubt over a will unless you had had to have legal advice on some point, and you now doubted whether that advice was correct.
You don't have to ever use the solicitor again if you don't want to. Keep the wills at home, or in some other depository. Just make sure your executors know where they are held.
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>> If the wills do what you want them to do, I don't see how it is possible to be "comfortable" or "uncomfortable" with them.
>> Do you mean your wife suspects that the drafts do not in fact reflect your wishes? Does she think they are flawed in some way? Not in accordance with correct legal practice and will therefore fail when the crunch comes?
My impression from the OP was that Mrs tyro didn't like the cut of the lawyer's jib thinking him or her too old-fashioned and fuddy-duddy.
When my first wife and I divorced, 'our' lawyer, a nice agreeable civilised chap from an established firm of city property solicitors, nevertheless tried gently to persuade her to make the whole thing more adversarial, claiming that decisions not backed by a court ruling could be gone back on. Fortunately she didn't bite, we divided the property into thirds and she got custody of our daughter and two thirds of the not very much money from the sale of the house. It was all informal, verbal and private, with the law as such cut out apart from rubber-stamping the divorce.
I would strongly advise anyone contemplating marriage to select a spouse who is a 'gentleman', a person who doesn't go back on a given word. Paranoia and sociopathic behaviour are incredibly expensive when the time comes. But they are almost normal today.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 18:09
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>> My impression from the OP was that Mrs tyro didn't like the cut of the
>> lawyer's jib
That's basically it, AC. His manner, etc, and one or two things he said - seemed to her to be somewhat unprofessional. I could see where she was coming from, but I was willing to give the chap the benefit of the doubt.
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>>
>> Clearly, going ahead with the original solicitor doesn't look like it is going to happen.
>> However, we have not paid him a penny for the work he did two years
>> ago. Nor have I told him we don't plan to go ahead. I take it
>> that when I do so, he will bill us. Is this correct?
>>
>> And would it be helpful to show the draft wills and other documents that he
>> drew up to the Edinburgh solicitors?
>>
Wife and I did exactly the same thing. I drafted a will before we got married, didn't go back to sign it etc, then found out I'd have to make a new one after we married.... so it was forgotten.
Received a polite letter from the solicitor recently saying that unless I contacted them within a certain period, they'd assume I didn't want to proceed and it would be binned. No threat of billing; but I must confess like the OP I did feel a small twinge of guilt.
It lasted for about 30 seconds whilst I tried to recall the last time I heard of a solicitor filing for bankruptcy.
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"I drafted a will before we got married, didn't go back to sign it etc, then found out I'd have to make a new one after we married..."
I wrote a new will a few months back. For the benefit of those who don't know, the need to re-write a will after marriage can be avoided if the following phrase is used near the beginning: "In contemplation of marriage to X..." Of course, you need to have a specific potential spouse in mind.
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Tyro, don't want to be cheeky but was this the firm of solicitors that recently had a deal on one of the Groupon type sites?
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More and more solicitors will disappear - not the money making machine it once was, conveyancing work at an all time low, Legal Aid about to be binned. Lots of graduates looking in vain for traineeships....
Last edited by: R.P. on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 18:17
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Yes, one feels for them. Probably having to scrape by on 5 digit salaries some of them ( in the provinces anyway )...
:-)
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And a good pension, don't forget the good pension scheme there Humph.
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A friend from my childhood is now the (rather unpopular) joint CEO of the world's largest law firm. He has to make do with a 7-digit salary.
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Sir Nigel Knowles. DLA Piper.
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You got any dirt on him?
:-))
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 19:36
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>You got any dirt on him?
Less than he's likely to have on me I'm sure.
Last edited by: Kevin on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 19:49
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Oh dear ! Ah well, at least you're not called Nigel. Well, one assumes not anyway !
:-)
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Thanks, Harleyman. That makes me feel better.
>> Tyro, don't want to be cheeky but was this the firm of solicitors that recently
>> had a deal on one of the Groupon type sites?
I don't know, Bobby, but I doubt it. (Though I can't be certain since I don't know anything about the firm you refer to, or indeed about Groupon type sites.) It was a firm of Highland solicitors, who came to my notice because they were involved in one of these "Will Aid" schemes.
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Tyro,
Are you intending to appoint the solicitor as executor? If so then I can sort of understand Mrs T's objections about the way his office looks.
OTOH if the end product you need is a document that authorises your offspring to carry the will's terms into effect then so long as you're happy your intentions are correctly reflected then I''d not be too hung up on the cut of his jib.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 21:29
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Bromptonaut,
Nor would I. But as for my wife . . . But it wasn't just his office. His demeanour, and various things about the conversation didn't exactly inspire confidence. As I say, I decided that these things were not significant. My wife wasn't persuaded.
Had she said, upon walking out of the office "No, definitely not!", it would have been much simpler. But it was more "I'm not sure" - and then her doubts hardened rather than softened as time went by.
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Tyro,
If the experience was. for whatever reason, one you're not both happy with then I suppose, even if the document correctly captures your wishes and gives the lawyer no further involvement it might be an issue. Go elsewhere and try again.
If by some chance, in a year or two's time he contacts you to say he's reviewing old cases and believes you're due a bill of £200 or whatever then you have a decision to make.
But if he cannot be troubled to bill you for the work he did, or has written it off, then barring him being in your golf club, it's his problem.
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Hadn't seen that, Bobby. It certainly sounds inexpensive!
Last edited by: tyro on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 23:11
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Update:
Well, what happened was this.
The Edinburgh solicitor got back to us with quotes for the work that we wanted done. It looked like it was going to cost about £500 more than using the local firm. I pointed this out to my wife. She felt this was money well worth paying.
The decision having thus been made, I telephoned the local firm (this would be in late November) and spoke to the receptionist who answered the telephone, and explained that we were not going ahead. She took my telephone number in case they wanted to contact me. They have not done so, so that seems to be the end of it. I still find it somewhat embarrassing.
There is, however, a postscript.
A week or two after the telephone call I was having a conversation with a friend. A maiden aunt of this friend had died a few years ago, and her will caused major problems. He told me the latest installment of the saga. In the course of the conversation, he referred to "his solicitor". Since he had never previously spoken of "his solicitor", and since I was pretty sure that he was talking about a solicitor that he had not previously used, I asked who his solicitor was. He mentioned the firm of local solicitors that my wife and I had gone to see. (By "local", I mean local by Highland standards. He's actually almost 100 miles away!) I asked him which solicitor in the firm he was using, and he named the gent that my wife had been unimpressed with - and added that he had found him "top notch". So, while the solicitor didn't get our business - at least one of my friends is a happy customer!
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One for the lawyers - R.P.
