www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19960207
This case has annoyed me and I simply cannot see what we are doing and how we can explain to our own citizens that they can't have expensive cancer treatment anymore.
This young lady, while I appreciate what she was doing and give her some credit for that, knew what the risk was.
Why is it us and our NHS that is left to pick up the pieces?
She hasn't come alone, she has family with her, we are providing NHS care and security for her and her entourage.
This is going to be ongoing since it's rumoured she/they will never be able to return.
Is it fair to those we see on a daily basis denied treatment, despite contributing all their lives to a failing NHS?
I don't think it is.
Pat
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BBC news on the radio said that the Pakistani Government is paying the bills incurred.
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But for how long RP and will they ever return?
Pat
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For her and her entourage that sounds a bit harsh Pat.The girl needs to get well first and then see what happens.I understand about cancer patients not receiving certain drugs due to cost which is wrong.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19944078
Mentioned towards the end of this video clip.
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I'd be happy to see her settle here. Her life is most definitely at risk back home. The ever so brave Taliban have said they'll try to kill her gain..
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We have an international obligation to accept refugees. Whilst she is not yet a refugee the Pakistani Government have done the right thing in asking for help from a fellow Commonwealth country.
I think this young girl has earned the right to ask ask for refugee status should she wish. She is incredibly brave. She has shown how truly pathetic the Taliban are.
She is a young girl. I would expect her family to be with her.
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 16 Oct 12 at 17:35
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>> We have an international obligation to accept refugees.
Lets see: several hundred thousand Iraqis. Syrians..
Millions of Palestinians.
Millions of Africans.. from Zim to Congo, Ethiopia to Sudan.. always wars.
If there is a Middle East war, there will be lots of Iranians seeking refuge.
So we'll open our borders and accept 20 million people?
Let me vote out any politician who supports that.. and tax them at 100% to pay for it.
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>>>> We have an international obligation to accept refugees.
We have international law obligations....
www.sais-jhu.edu/cmtoolkit/issues-in-practice/safe-havens/intl-refugee-law.htm
Not everyone from those countries is classified as a refugee.
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It has annoyed me also I`m afraid.
Firstly her life was saved by the Doctors in Pakistan, she was critical but stable, why bring her here for ongoing care? - they could have managed that themselves.
Secondly, why here, America has some fantastic Hospitals! - but of course long-term on-going care in the USA is going to cost a fortune! - why pay when you can get it here free!
Thirdly, they state that the Pakistani government has paid all the expenses incurred in sending her here, with what? Surely not all the Aid we give them under the `guise of educational and medicinal needs. We payed to get her here!
Fourthly, and this is the point that causes my real annoyance, we have critically ill children here, often their only chance of survival is to have treatment in America. Do our government help them, no, Parents, friends have to raise the funds themselves through various activities, many a child has gone "Terminal" due to the valuable time being wasted trying to raise the money, and many have paid with their lives. Yet our government can get a girl here in less than a week, that only needs caring for.
A better idea would be for the government to pay for the children to have their life-saving treatment up-front, and then the Parents/friends fundraising could be used to pay back the government once the treatment has begun.
But then, there wouldn`t be any political willy-waving propaganda for Mr Cameron to glean from that!
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She was stable but her long term care was outside the capability of what was available, no doubt there is a huge risk of her being rubbed out by these mindless morons. QE2 hospital is very experienced in dealing with injuries like this thanks to the Taliban, Afghan Police and Americans... Sending the kid to America would have been politically difficult as they are viewed by many as the Great Satan. I think it goes beyond Cameron's willy this one.
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>> BBC news on the radio said that the Pakistani Government is paying the bills incurred.
>>
Though if they weren't I'd quite happily chuck a thousand quid into the pot. This girl is a ray of light in a phenomenally backwards part of the world. It's interesting that the thing that really scares the Taliban is not bombs, or invasion, or drones - but an educated woman.
To Pat:-
Cancer treatment is a difficult subject and not something that can be directly compared to this - most treatment doesn't cure cancer but merely extends lifespan on a statistical basis, and marginally at that.
Then start to throw in quality of life etc... would you rather spend three months in a comfortable and caring hospice or six months being pumped full of poison (which is basically what chemotherapy is), and then dying anyway?
It sounds great when the Daily Mail announces that XXXX drug* at an obscene cost doubles lifespan, but when you dig deeper you go from three months to six months. That's worth a lot to the family, but equally the money could go towards cataract operations / training / education and benefit society as a whole.
In fact, I privately suspect that if the money was diverted to education and sports facilities it would probably pay for itself in the long term.
Though then you hit a pension catastrophe. It's not easy...
* I'm quite a fan of this site: kill-or-cure.heroku.com/
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Tue 16 Oct 12 at 17:43
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>>Then start to throw in quality of life etc... would you rather spend three months in a comfortable and caring hospice or six months being pumped full of poison (which is basically what chemotherapy is), and then dying anyway?
Fursty Ferret, I have nursed mr pda through two sessions of unrelated chemotherapy in the last eight years and I know fine well what it entails being selcted for treatment.
>> and then dying anyway<<
That is most certainly not the case, and neither is the need for treatment self inflicted.
She chose to take the risk and knew what the risk was....most of us don't have that luxury.
Pat
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>>- most treatment doesn't cure cancer but merely extends lifespan on a statistical basis, and marginally at that.
<<
Don't ever, ever say that to a cancer sufferer who has succesfully been treated and living a normal life. Belief that there is hope is the success to a cure.
Pat
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>> >>- most treatment doesn't cure cancer but merely extends lifespan on a statistical basis, and
>> marginally at that.
>> <<
>>
>> Don't ever, ever say that to a cancer sufferer who has succesfully been treated and
>> living a normal life. Belief that there is hope is the success to a cure.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Unfortunately having two close members of my family struck by cancer and seen the ravages inflicted on one of them by chemotherapy I think I'm entitled to comment. It's obviously not pleasant to hear, but sadly it's true.
Hodgkin's lymphoma, for example, if discovered early is very treatable and the patient stands an excellent chance of living a long and happy life. Some kinds of bone cancer, however, aren't.
This is always going to be a difficult and grey area.
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>> She chose to take the risk and knew what the risk was....
>>
A 13/14 year old choosing and knowing the risk of writing for the BBC?
>> most of us don't have that luxury.
>>
I don't believe that for a second.
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>>She chose to take the risk and knew what the risk was....most of us don't have that luxury.
Since when has been going to school been considered a risk that you could be killed for? Even in Pakistan!
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The comparison was with the seriously ill people of the UK who don't have a choice about needing NHS treatment.
I'm sure both you and John H realised that.
Pat
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>>The comparison was with the seriously ill people of the UK who don't have a choice about needing NHS treatment.
You could always go private and this is effectively what is happening with this girl as her fees are being paid by the Pakistani Government.
I think sometimes compassion is needed and even though budgets are tight, the current administration seem to be making a big thing about it and almost talking us in to another recession. I can't help thinking it is because assets (properties, businesses, shares etc.) are all cheaper in a recession and the rich can still afford to buy them.
We are not bust as a country and we are the sixth or seventh richest country in the world.
Some compassion for a child caught up in politics and despotism will go along way.
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>> BBC news on the radio said that the Pakistani Government is paying the bills incurred.
>>
IS ANYONE LISTENING TO R.P.??
THE NHS IS NOT PICKING UP THE BILL.
Sorry for shouting but people (like Westpig below) are still trotting out the assumption that the UK taxpayer is paying the relatively paltry sums for this girl's treatment. We are not. Even if we were, to begrudge it would be an act of astonishing selfishness.
Some things are more important than money. In fact, most things are.
Last edited by: Alanović on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 10:06
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>> still trotting out the assumption that the UK taxpayer is paying the relatively paltry sums for this girl's treatment. We are not. Even if we were, to begrudge it would be an act of astonishing selfishness.
>> Some things are more important than money. In fact, most things are.
Right on Alanovic. You are welcome to stay in this country for as long as you like having good attitudes.
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>> IS ANYONE LISTENING TO R.P.??
>>
>> THE NHS IS NOT PICKING UP THE BILL.
>>
>> Sorry for shouting but people (like Westpig below) are still trotting out the assumption that
>> the UK taxpayer is paying the relatively paltry sums for this girl's treatment. We are
>> not. Even if we were, to begrudge it would be an act of astonishing selfishness.
>>
>> Some things are more important than money. In fact, most things are.
>>
Before you started shouting, you should have read the post properly.
1, I posted " I have no problem with this child using up any of my taxpayer's funds (which it inevitably will)".
The Pakistani Govt might well be paying her medical costs now...but who do you think will be paying for her and her family's social housing, education and general ongoing living costs? She won't be going back to Pakistan, will she?
2, I posted that I agreed she should be here and that I personally was happy for my taxes to fund it.
I then went on to say there's a limit to this sort of thing..and therefore I fundamentally disagree with your comment about some things being more important than money...because.. in this context, the UK cannot right the wrongs of the whole world, we'd be more bankrupt than we already are.
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>> Does the UK have it's priorities right? >>
We, "the enlightened UK", are encouraging "backward" countries that they should give women equal rights and educate their girls.
We, "the enlightened UK", are interfering in Afghanistan and Pakistan to get rid of the Taliban.
This young lady, whose name you cannot bring yourself to quote (her name is Malala Yousafzai), is suffering because of the policies inflicted upon those regions by "the enlightened UK".
The real scandal is this waste of money:
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/27/afghan-schools-clinics-built-british-close
"Schools and health centres built by the British in Afghanistan as part of the military's counter-insurgency strategy are being forced to close down because President Karzai's government cannot afford to pay for them, the Guardian has learned."
and these poor girls:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2216553
p.s. pda - for the avodance of any doubt, this is a reply to counter your post, it is not an attack on you the person.
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and Imperial bungling of a huge magnitude..! (so called pax-Britannia)
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Of all the detritus of Empire, none is worse than the influx to Britain of immigrants from backward tribal villages in Pakistan.
With them they bring all that is worst in the "Religion of Peace".
Once here, a proportion of them work towards perpetuating their ancient way of life by establishing fundamentalist schools and places of worship, thinly disguised, as weapons to work towards their avowed intention of bringing Sharia law to Britain (and other Western Nations).
Other immigrants from the Indian sub-continent, such as Hindus & Sikhs do not behave thus, nor do the Ugandan Asians, many of whom have made positive contributions to their adopted county.
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p.p.s
The OP's BBC link states: "Malala became widely known as a campaigner for girls' education in Pakistan as a result of a diary she wrote for BBC"
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It matters no whether Pakistan pays for her treatment, because the money they spend on her treatmetn here is peanuts compared to the vast sums in aid given to Pakistan.
Some facts about aid to Pakistan, a country that can afford nuclear weapons:
US Aid:
Pakistan is one of the largest recipients of U.S. assistance. Nearly $3 billion in U.S. aid to Pakistan is planned for fiscal 2012. About $1.6 billion of the FY2012 funds are security-related and most of the remaining $1.4 billion is for economic development. Pakistan has received over $20 billion in military and non-military aid since 2001. About $9 billion of that total went to reimburse Pakistan for its expenses incurred in supporting U.S. military operations.
UK Aid - quote is from article by William Hague in the Standard today:
www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/malala-symbolises-the-struggle-for-the-future-of-pakistan-8213429.html
"We have a deep relationship in foreign policy and security, especially in working to help Pakistan and Afghanistan address insecurity on their common border. In the last 12 months alone we have doubled the number of children Britain is supporting in Pakistani schools to more than 330,000. Over the next four years UK aid will support four million Pakistani schoolchildren, recruit and train 45,000 new teachers, provide job training to tens of thousands of the poorest people, and more. We are strengthening our engagement between our educational institutions, and 118 Pakistani universities have developed partnerships with more than 90 universities in the UK.
And because Pakistan’s economy is fragile we are encouraging its government to make key structural reforms to its economy, including expanding the tax base and reform of state-owned enterprises to promote stability and increase growth. This year our two Prime Ministers agreed a plan of action that promotes investment, supports business and aims to increase bilateral trade to £2.5 billion by 2015."
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Basically Pakistan is bust and would have gone toits up in 2001 but for US Aid.
meanwhile they are free - with our money - to menace India, finance terrorism there and support the Taliban in Afghnaistan with our money.
And of course they (rightly) resent us trying to set Pakistan's own policies.
Meanwhile it's the most corrupt of states. And of course assassinates anyone who tries to stop corruption.
It's a rerun of US policy in the 19609-90s in Latin America. Support corrupt regimes .. which eventually collapse and turn violently anti US..
You can lead a horse to water but you can't teach it new tricks.
Waste of time and money.. far better to let it collapse . The resulting war with India will happen anyway. And solve the problem permanently as much of Pakistan will cease to be inhabitable.
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We're talking about a little girl, who had the balls to learn stuff and speak about it. There are plenty of examples of British youth who can do neither. Better they divert some benefit monies from the refusinik (as in refusing to learn refusing to work) natives here.
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>>Better they divert some benefit monies from the refusinik (as in refusing to learn refusing to work) natives here.
Hear him!
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Aren't we fighting a war against terrorism?
Since when does Britain refuse to help treat our allies' wounded?
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Pat, I am a bit surprised. Where's that warm working-class feminist heart? And do you think you live in a deprived country with a poor health service?
Whatever the perceived rationing of cancer treatment by the NHS, this is one of the world's richest countries per capita which wastes billions routinely. Whatever people's complaints about the NHS, the country has very highly developed and experienced orthopaedic and neurological units that treat soldiers with traumatic head and other injuries.
It seems entirely natural to extend this treatment, complicated and difficult as it is, to a girl from a very poor country with few such facilities, foully injured by horrible bearded savages who want to take the place back into the middle ages by keeping women as livestock, without real human status. Anyway she's a BBC hack so what's the problem?
Not your finest hour Pat.
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It took her the same balls to do that as grow up to be a female lorry driver
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 16 Oct 12 at 19:23
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PS I wasn't me that "dissed" the original post as it's only fair to debate this...
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In reply to Fusty Ferrett regarding cancer.Mine is one of the worst one to get a famous British writer died of it.Two years after the op.I'm still here just your writing didn't cheer me up.>;)
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What are these expensive cancer treatments that people cannot have anymore?
It seems to me that there are two forms of cancer treatment. Those that use surgery and chemo/radiotherapy to excise and eliminate the cancer and those that reduce/alleviate established and 'incurable' cancers extending life expectancy. It seems quite right to me that NICE look very closely at the latter and whether they are, however harsh that is for loved ones, value for the money spent.
As to Malia, a young woman not a girl, I'd happily donate a few quid a month towards her treatment and upkeep. If she and her family need refugee status that seems to me wholly just as well an I'd be similarly willing to pay.
If she can recover and fulfil what I recall was her ambition of being a Doctor here then we will recoup the cost several times over.
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Ruddy hell Pat, I would have thought, you of all people, would have supporting her 100%.
This girl is doing more for womans human rights in that area than any Western Army invasion and intervention could ever achieve. For all her guts and balls she reminds me of you. And there you are wanting to drop her in the mire.
Cant Believe it.
I suppose you want us to spend the money on your sodding useless fat cats.
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>>We're talking about a little girl,<<
Yes we are, and one wonders would the reaction have been the same had we been talking about a lad of the same age?
To AC>>
>>Where's that warm working-class feminist heart<<
One word is wrong in that quote Lud, I am not, and never have been, a feminist.
I simply wanted to do a job as an equal of the men that had always done it in the past. I did it for me, perhaps selfishly, but not for females in general.
Now as a warm and working class person I take on average ten phone calls a week asking for help, in my capacity as a trustee of our charity.
These people have walked the corridors of the NHS and never complain about the treatment they have had, as in fact neither would mr pda. It is excellent, of that there is no doubt.
However, the social services and the aftercare for these people is in the most part sadly lacking and we get asked to fund the most basic requirements to make a persons life more comfortable.
As a country our ability to look after our own residents is being stretched to the limit for a number of reasons…and having an ever open door isn’t helping.
Do we ever hear of other European countries doing this? No, but they don’t have a free NHS system.
And to Z>>
I admire her for the stance she took, but still maintain she was aware of the risks attached to that. It could be argued that she dropped herself in the mire for her fellow country women and girls, why should the UK be expected to pick up the pieces and the bill for her recovery and most likely her further education. Not to mention housing her family and all the related benefits that will be bestowed upon them?
This isn’t a compassionate decision, it is a political one.
>> Anyway she's a BBC hack so what's the problem?<<
Now, there’s an alternative view, it’s certainly not the BBC’s finest moment.
First it was JS now one of their ‘child’ hacks get shot by the Taliban.
Where is their duty of care?
*TIC*
Pat
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Hmm....interesting thread.
I think i'm going to end up with splinters in my nether region with my fence sitting, because.....
I agree with the generality of Pat's viewpoint. We should look after our own before other country's peoples. I know some folk in the world get a right rum deal, but that's for the UN to deal with, or G8 or similar...not the basic taxpayer of the UK...and the NHS is like one great sieve, haemorrhaging money like no tomorrow. It's a well known fault in the system that non UK (and non taxpaying) individuals regularly use it as their own, because the medical system runs on medical need, not who is entitled to it.
Now for the splinters..... in this particular case, I have no problem with this child using up any of my taxpayer's funds (which it inevitably will)...because....she's bravely stood up to what is our common enemy. We send our soldiers over there to fight and die for that cause...and this young lady has highlighted the difficulties, severely embarrassed her Govt and those that side with the extremists and single handedly stood up to her and others oppressors..so when you think of our costs in sending our military over to that region...then this is money well spent.
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I thought the Pakistani Government were paying for all her treatment and transport. Is this incorrect?
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>> I agree with the generality of Pat's viewpoint. We should look after our own before
>> other country's peoples.
>>
In which case, the policy to complain about to your MP, Minister, Shadow Minister, is this one reported only a few days ago:
13 Oct 2012
"GPs must treat foreign 'health tourists' under new guidance to 'promote human rights'
Foreign "health tourists" must be given free treatment by GPs to avoid discriminating against them, new guidelines for doctors have ruled.
The guidance, from NHS London, stipulates “nationality is not relevant” to the entitlement for primary care, and states practices can not insist on seeing passports as it could be “discriminatory”.
“There is no set length of time that a patient must reside in the UK in order to become eligible to receive NHS primary care services,” it states.
It specifies temporary resident status can be given to “asylum seekers and refugees, overseas visitors, students, people on work visas and those who are homeless”.
It summarises: “Immigration status does not affect eligibility to primary care - practices should not enquire about patients immigration status.” ... "
>> Now for the splinters..... in this particular case, I have no problem with this child
>> using up any of my taxpayer's funds (which it inevitably will)
>>
Let us stop beating about the bush. the only reason Malala is getting the attention is because she is a "cause célèbre" - and Politicians think there is mileage in exploiting her situation. There are hundred of wounded Syrian children who could do with similar medical attention, but there is no publicity to be milked from their situation.
It is quite apparent that The Great British General Public is quite happy for Malala to be treated here - whether paid for by Pakistan or the NHS, except for a minority from a particular part of society.
I have no truck with them.
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>> this is money well spent.
all correct.
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>> Do we ever hear of other European countries doing this?
Do you ever read the press published in other European countries? Just because you don't hear doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
>> No, but they don’t have a free NHS system.
What? Do you think that the British EHIC card gives free access to to other EC countries' private health facilities? If that were true, we'd all be over there as health tourists.
>> I admire her for the stance she took, but still maintain she was aware of
>> the risks attached to that.
Taking such huge personal risks for an enormous greater good? She's up there with Pankhurst. Actually, I'd probably rate her higher than that on the heroism scale.
>> It could be argued that she dropped herself in the
>> mire for her fellow country women and girls, why should the UK be expected to
>> pick up the pieces and the bill for her recovery and most likely her further
>> education. Not to mention housing her family and all the related benefits that will be
>> bestowed upon them?
>>
>> This isn’t a compassionate decision, it is a political one.
With a compassionate outcome. So what's the problem?
I am utterly staggered at your attitude to this, Pat.
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So anyone who stands-up for their cause and commits what in their society would almost amount to Treason, are welcome here! - I bet Guido Faulkes and that chap we`ve just extradited for running an Extremist Website may disagree!
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>> So anyone who stands-up for their cause and commits what in their society would almost
>> amount to Treason, are welcome here! - I bet Guido Faulkes and that chap we`ve
>> just extradited for running an Extremist Website may disagree!
Oh stop being deliberately stupid, you know damn well that blowing up parliament is not the same as being shot for standing up for education for girls.
Who's got that tit award? get it parcelled up for shipment will you.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 10:44
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You should try explaining to some of the people who I talk to in the course of a week, why they need to ask for charitable help when they've always lived worked and fought for their country of birth Alanovic.
How would you justify this to such people?
Pat
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'How would you justify this to such people?'
You probably can't, but that doesn't make it the wrong choice.
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Quite so, sooty. In fact, a member of my immediate family, in a story deeply intertwined with service in the British Armed Forces, is currently in a very unpleasant situation regarding foreign courts, which could do with the help of the British government. It is not forthcoming, despite communications up to and including Prime Ministerial level, and indeed Royalty (in fact, a member of the Royal family who is very senior and with whom the member of my family concerned has personal contacts, and has had for many years). This story may come out in the press before too long, it may not. I hope it does, but that is dependent on many things. It's a complicated old world.
I don't expect anyone to believe this, but it's true. None of it makes an iota of difference to the fact that I think this Pakistani girl deserves, and is due, all the assistance she is getting, and probably more. It's quite possible to support it whilst knowing that others are also in dire need of help, which they aren't getting. Denying the one will not help the other.
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Of course the UK has its priorities wrong..
It treats for pension rights those who have never worked or contributed a penny better than those who have worked.
It does not extradite convicted immigrants who in any other country would be thrown out after sentence served (See USA).
Judges go by strict rules when it is clear law allows discretion but since it's not PC, the discretion is not used.
And the priority above all else is to allow justice to take as long as possible at any cost to Legal Aid - so ensuring less high profile cases cannot get Legal Aid... (and more importantly, lawyers get loadsofmoney from us)
(The Provision of Legal Aid to any individual should be capped at a lifetime figure of say £ 150,000. Once that is used up, pay your own. That would ensure the gross abuse we see with appeal after appeal from people who have never contributed a penny to the Exchequer in their lifetime is strictly limited).
None of the above will be resolved.. lawyers have too much to lose. And lawyers make the law.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 13:56
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>> And the priority above all else is to allow justice to take as long as
>> possible at any cost to Legal Aid - so ensuring less high profile cases cannot
>> get Legal Aid... (and more importantly, lawyers get loadsofmoney from us)
That's not the case legal aid rates are set low, far less than the top lawyers charge, but still often do legal aid.
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>> And the priority above all else is to allow justice to take as long as
>> possible at any cost to Legal Aid - so ensuring less high profile cases cannot
>> get Legal Aid... (and more importantly, lawyers get loadsofmoney from us)
Here's the real story on Legal Aid from somebody who knows what he's talking about.
www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/oct/16/lord-mcnally-legal-aid-cuts-laspo
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>>Denying the one will not help the other. <<
That's a plattitude, and I have to do better than that.
It certainly is possible to support it whilst knowing that others are in dire need of help...the question is, is it right to do so?
Pat
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>> That's a plattitude, and I have to do better than that.
Sometimes that's all that can be done.
>>
>> It certainly is possible to support it whilst knowing that others are in dire need
>> of help...the question is, is it right to do so?
As always it depends on the circumstances.
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>> One word is wrong in that quote Lud, I am not, and never have been, a feminist.
Not a theorising member of what I used to call the Ladies' Liberation Front, a term that made some giggle and others get a bit annoyed. But you are nevertheless the real thing Pat, a woman who has stood up and constructed a career in what is usually seen as a male preserve. Feminists campaign for equal or equivalent appropriate treatment or status to those enjoyed by men. What else have you been doing for much of your life?
I'm not sure you can really claim that a girl of 12 - 10 when this started - 'knew the risks she was running'. In any case she has clearly been encouraged by her liberal, intellectual and secular-minded family. Now they are all targets.
Perhaps the decision to invite her here was partly political and opportunist. In any case not even a rich country like this one can treat all child victims of violence in third-world countries. But treating some is surely better than treating none because it isn't 'fair' to treat some but not others. No amount of effort or money will make the world much more perfect.
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>> Anyway she's a BBC hack so what's the problem?<<
That was an afterthought, and a bit flippant really.
>> First it was JS now one of their ‘child’ hacks get shot by the Taliban.
Where is their duty of care?
*TIC*
Tee hee... it's a relief to think this poor girl won't get a bedside visit in the dead of night from a quacking old nonce in a blond frightwig. Although the comic said today that two people claiming to be her relations have been turned away by security. Are there nutters in this country who would like to earn credit from the Pakistani Taliban by doing this girl some harm? You bet our sweet bippy there are. It's a very grim world sometimes.
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>> what's the "Comic"?
All the papers are a bit thin these days but I have a long-standing Telegraph habit, carried through from my Africa hacking days when I read it and Le Monde every day. Naturally look at other papers though, and the excellent Private Eye every fortnight. I surf news channels at night including AlJazeera and Russia Today, both getting superficially more and more like western - American really - networks.
The Telegraph's present owners are weird, with a far-right side, but their fingerprints are fairly easy to spot and quite a lot of the hacks and columnists are still all right. Washington Post, NY Times and IHT are all worthy sources, but if you aren't in the business the expense and time involved in reading a lot of them can't be justified.
By the way Conrad Black, newly released from the slammer, is to appear in Have I Got News For You any minute, this week I think.
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Ah. I thought you called the Telegraph "Terrorflag", so I was wondering what other organ you might be referring to as a comic.
They're all comics really I suppose, but I bought an Observer this weekend, for the first time. Quite enjoyed it. I usually go Independent (i), but their Sunday edition got rather dull.
I saw the front page of the Telegraph this morning, and thought it odd that they would be on my side of the Charlie letters thang.
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>> I simply cannot see what we are doing
What would you have preferred happen in this case?
The NHS does not have enough money to provide the health care that you believe it should.
It needs more money.
So, which taxes do we raise to increase available funds? Or which services or employees do we cut to reduce costs? Or what other illnesses do we no longer treat?
Its all very well saying that you want everybody to get the best of everything, but how will it be funded?
And whilst I agree that there is much that needs fixing, surely we couldn't allow a little girl to suffer if we can do something about it?
And of course she had no idea what she was getting into and certainly would not have appreciated the risks. That a group of people would stop a school bus and shoot her in the head? I'm not sure an adult would have seen it coming but a child wasn't going to.
As to...
>>Why is it us and our NHS that is left to pick up the pieces?
That makes as much sense as asking if a child should be refused treatement because his parents have never contributed.
Because we can. Because we should.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't help other people.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 15:08
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>> >> I simply cannot see what we are doing
>>
>> What would you have preferred happen in this case?
I would have preferred her to be treated and kept safe in her own country
>> The NHS does not have enough money to provide the health care that you believe
>> it should.
Yes it does but only if it treats people who have already made some contribution to it's funding even if it's by parentage. At the moment we treat all immigrants, illegal or not when they are sick or having babies.
>> It needs more money.
See above.
>> So, which taxes do we raise to increase available funds? Or which services or employees
>> do we cut to reduce costs? Or what other illnesses do we no longer treat?
No need, again see above.
>> Its all very well saying that you want everybody to get the best of everything,
>> but how will it be funded?
I didn't say that, and I'm realistic enough to know that isn't posible. I do however feel extremely sorry for a lot of people who are not having their basic needs met later in life or when ill at an early age.
>> And whilst I agree that there is much that needs fixing, surely we couldn't allow
>> a little girl to suffer if we can do something about it?
Are you saying no other country 'could' do anything about it? or wouldn't?
>> And of course she had no idea what she was getting into and certainly would
>> not have appreciated the risks. That a group of people would stop a school bus
>> and shoot her in the head? I'm not sure an adult would have seen it
>> coming but a child wasn't going to.
Her parents would have known.
>>Why is it us and our NHS that is left to pick up the pieces?
>>
>> That makes as much sense as asking if a child should be refused treatement because
>> his parents have never contributed.
She was not refused treatment, she was being treated in Pakistan and whilst we can, it is always at the cost of treating someone else. How would you feel if the money runs out and your child needs treatment?
In your own words Mark >>>> It needs more money<<
The NHS is not a bottomless pit, neither is our social responsibility to all and sundry.
Pat
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As often happens when you get into a discussion with intelligent people, I find myself with sympathies on both sides of the argument. I'm sure everybody's instinct is to help on compassionate grounds, but why her and not everybody everywhere? Come one, come all...
The clincher I suppose is that the girl's treatment is being funded by Pakistan.
The NHS seems to have found a solution to the budget problems BTW - there is quite a debate brewing about the Liverpool Care Pathway. About time too. It's thirty years since my grandmother had a fatal stroke, and it didn't actually hit me until she died a week after the stroke that she had been literally starved and dehydrated to death. I have been fearful of hospitals ever since, and of the opinion that you need a close friend or family member keeping a close eye on them if you go into one - especially if you happen to have grey hair. My mother's experiences in the mid 90s, and my wife's recent hospitalisation have done nothing to change my opinion.
Sorry for the drift, as usual.
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Pat.
What is Mr pda's thoughts about this girl?
As the absolute end-user of our health resources does he feel the same way as his carer?
No right or wrong answer, just curious.
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>> Pat.
>>
>> What is Mr pda's thoughts about this girl?
>>
>> As the absolute end-user of our health resources does he feel the same way as
>> his carer?
>>
>> No right or wrong answer, just curious.
I bet the young girl drives trucks better than mr pda. Every single biscuit in a pack I got from Morrisons was broken.
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I do have a problem when foreigners deliberately misuse NHS.
However, in this case that poor girl put a brave face against the brutal regime.
If her treatment has been funded by Pakistani Govt, I don't see see any reason why she can't be treated here. I'm sure she had no intention of being shot so that she could get NHS treatment.
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He does that on my instructions Z, everytime he goes to Morrisons at Sittingbourne. I know they service your local one.
No good shopping at Tesco, Sainsbury, Co-op, Aldi or Liddl either and if you want to go a bit 'upmarket', we do Waitrose at Bracknell too;)
Don't buy any chocolate Santa Claus or reindeer at the moment!
Pat
PS Easter Eggs start in November.
Last edited by: pda on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 17:12
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You're doomed Zeddo ! We'll be sending food parcels down south soon full of Morrisons finest whole biscuits...!
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mr pda has never had reason to complain about his treatment and constantly sings the praises of the NHS. He had Hodgkins Lymphoma ( it could have been non Hodgkins?) 8 years ago and then testicular cancer 5 years ago and the treatment was, and still is, superb.
I asked him to look at this thread this morning because I knew I'd opened a can of worms!
He very much echoed Westpig by sitting on the fence and seeing both sides of the argument, but he understands the political implications far more than I do. He di agree with me though that if she is as intelligent as we are led to believe and living under the conditions she does, she must have had an idea of the repercussions. He also agrees that neither her or her family will return to Pakistan.
I'm sory I can't tell you more Lygonos but this discussion was had at 4.30am before he left for work!
I wasn't much of a carer though, he says I left him endless 'to do' lists which kept his mind of everything else:)
Pat
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>> the repercussions. He also agrees that neither her or her family will return to Pakistan.
>>
>>
Her family are not here. She is alone and according to reports: "The teenager, who arrived in Britain yesterday and has not been accompanied by her family, is not allowed to receive any visitors in hospital and police are ready to arrest anyone they believe tries to go and see her in suspicious circumstances."
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>>
Her parents would have known.
Exactly, how many of us would have allowed a child of ours to carry on campaigning however a worthy cause, if they had already been warned in no uncertain terms that unless she stopped She (also possibly themselves) would be executed. - Where was their duty of "care"?
At what point are the Pakistani government going to stop paying and pass on the life-long family charges to us.
Once again we have brought another Countries troubles to our doorstep, if, She attends any of our schools, will our School-children be in danger? - would you like to be one of her classmates (or their parent) knowing that at any moment a Taliban insurgent may burst into your classroom and shoot you?
And, if they do succeed, who`s fault will it be? and how many millions of compensation will our inability to protect her for the rest of her life cost us.
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>> Once again we have brought another Countries troubles to our doorstep, if, She attends any
>> of our schools, will our School-children be in danger? - would you like to be
>> one of her classmates (or their parent) knowing that at any moment a Taliban insurgent
>> may burst into your classroom and shoot you?
>> And, if they do succeed, who`s fault will it be? and how many millions of
>> compensation will our inability to protect her for the rest of her life cost us.
Ah now we have, NIMBY - you wimp. No wonder the terrorists win - Its doing stuff to help this girl that makes us better than them.
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>> Her parents would have known.
>>
Her father might have done, as he is a campaigner for women's education.
>> Exactly, how many of us would have allowed a child of ours to carry on
>> campaigning however a worthy cause, if they had already been warned in no uncertain terms
>>that unless she stopped She (also possibly themselves) would be executed. - Where was their
>> duty of "care"?
>>
Some people are brave, some are cowards.
But Malala was a pawn in the Western game with the Taliban. It started when she was 11.
"In 2009 Malala was asked by Abdul Hai Kakkar, a BBC reporter in Pakistan, to write about life under the Taliban. On 3 January 2009 herfirst entry was posted to the BBC Urdu blog that would later make her famous. She would hand-write notes and then pass them on to a reporter who would scan and e-mail them.
After the BBC diary ended, Malala appeared in a documentary filmed by New York Times reporter Adam B. Ellick.
Following the documentary, Malala was interviewed on AVT Khyber, Aaj Daily, and Canada’s Toronto Star.
In October 2011, Desmond Tutu nominated Malala for the International Children's Peace Prize. She was awarded Pakistan's first National Youth Peace Prize two months later in December.
On 3 January 2012, the Government Girls Secondary School was renamed Malala Yousafzai Government Girls Secondary School.
On 13 January 2012, the Express Tribune named Malala in their list of "Gamechangers 2011".
>> At what point are the Pakistani government going to stop paying and pass on the
>> life-long family charges to us.
>>
Conjecture, hypothetical, not factual.
>> Once again we have brought another Countries troubles to our doorstep,
>>
No, we are taking our way of life and standards and trying to impose those on to them, and trying to get them to live like Westerners. As William Hague said yesterday:
"In the last 12 months alone we have doubled the number of children Britain is supporting in Pakistani schools to more than 330,000. Over the next four years UK aid will support four million Pakistani schoolchildren, recruit and train 45,000 new teachers, provide job training to tens of thousands of the poorest people, and more."
If you don't like our Aid money being wasted on these "undeserving foreigners", and instead you want it spent on cancer treatment in the NHS, you have to rule out voting for Labour, Tories or the Libdems at the next election.
I don't fancy the malodour coming from this thread, so I think I will exit it now.
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Very good post John...until we come to this
>>and instead you want it spent on cancer treatment in the NHS,<<
Cancer isn't the only illness that needs more funding, just the most emotive one.
Neither is the NHS, it's the aftercare and care of the sick in their own homes, nearly always undertaken by families as their carers, who need more help.
That remark was below the belt and I have come to expevt better from you.
Pat
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>> Cancer isn't the only illness that needs more funding, just the most emotive one.
>>
>> That remark was below the belt and I have come to expevt better from you.
>>
I was not going to respond in this thread, but will respond to you:
1. sorry if my remark offended you.
2. it was a direct result of the first post where this was said "how we can explain to our own citizens that they can't have expensive cancer treatment anymore."
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>>At the moment we treat all immigrants, illegal or not when they are sick or having babies.
So, how about my wife who is an immigrant to the UK, when we are there, and she had one of our children in a UK hospital?
What about No. 1 daughter who was born elsewhere?
Now if they're "ok", what about if I have a cousin-in-law from South America staying with me and he needs treatment?
Now if he's still ok because of the contribution *I* have made to the finances of the UK, what about if I had not?
At what point does the fear of their "foreigness" or immigration status kick in?
How about if you or Mr pda are abroad and need treatment?
The NHS needs improving, mostly in its management. But I suspect that helping a little girl from Pakistan, or 500 girls from Pakistan, is not relevant to its issues.
There is certainly an issue I believe with the level of social aid given to those who have not contributed to the system. However, I don't see why that would be related to their nationality.
Neither do I have the faintest idea how one could draw lines.
But I rather think that everything worth saying(and rather a lot that was not) has been said in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.
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I'm pleased about that Mark, but but from past experience, I rather doubt it!
IMHO, what should have happened was for her to have stayed with her family in Pakistan. She had received treatment but more (and better) treatment was needed.
Funds should have been raised from charities and personal donations to have funded that treatment, which as can be seen by her supporters (and I would have been one of them) wouldn't have been difficult.
This sort of action, although not intended, does more to incite racial hatred than anything in some people, and that really does make me sad.
Pat
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Hearts and minds.
There is no military victory when it comes to terror and religious oppression.
If this encourages others to challenge the status quo then it's worth every penny.
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When you think of the many billions that are spent dealing with alleged political 'asylum seekers' and illegal immigrants who both exploit our systems to the bitter end, NHS tourists who do likewise then the treatment of a genuine young victim really pails into insignificance.
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How about if you or Mr pda are abroad and need treatment?
They would have to pay for it. No free treatment for UK citizens outside of the Kingdom. How often do you see newspaper reports of people who have, foolishly, failed to take out health insurance for their foreign holiday and have bankrupted themselves or their relations?
The UK had a duty to treat this girl when they were asked. However, the point PDA is making is not racist, but expressing concern about the drain on NHS resources by people not entitled to treatment, and who have never contributed. A recent case was a wealthy Nigerian woman who visited the UK to have her twins on the National Health. We also have the problem of EU citizens having free treatment here when we are not entitled to reciprocal treatment abroad. The EU health card merely allows emergency treatment at a discounted rate. I had to pay upfront in France when I was taken ill, and reclaim a percentage later.
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>> When you think of the many billions that are spent dealing with alleged political 'asylum
>> seekers'
I had a wry grin a couple of months back when Iffy described two Iron Curtain athletes keeping on running after end of a race and claiming political refuge here. No doubt they were feted.
When did asylum seekers cease to be heroes and become villains?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 18 Oct 12 at 10:56
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Ah but they were anti-communist!
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>> When did asylum seekers cease to be heroes and become villains?
Since Daily Mail.
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Without the mllions of refugees this country has welcomed over hundreds of years, the country would be immeasurably the poorer for it, hell some of us might not even be here !
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"No free treatment for UK citizens outside of the Kingdom"
Not so - your EHIC card entitles you to the same treatment from the public healthcare system in any EU country as their own citizens get. Of course, the Daily Wail is as rabidly anti-Europe as it is anti-everything else, so these facts won't get much publicity...
(Incidentally, the only time I've had to put my EHIC to the test was on holiday in Scotland. I guess that makes me a NHS tourist too :-O )
Its worth bearing in mind that the UK has had a hand in Pakistan's political condition - both current and past - so from the outside it does seem only reasonable that the UK should help deal with the terrible consequences this involvement has had for the Yousafzai family. Also, given the security problems within Pakistan, its unrealistic to think they wouldn't come to further harm if they remained in the country!
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Quite so, Gromit. I had an accident in Belgium once which necessitated surgery. They didn't even ask me to show them a passport. Job jobbed, on my way.
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The message John H posts upthread about Primary (GP) care is from NHS London. As might be expected in a large multi-ethnic city it's quite liberal. Attempts to check nationality are likely to consume/waste a lot of time an be unduly focussed on the foreign named and dark skinned.
Other areas seem to suggest nationality checks on registration though emphasising requirement to deal with urgent issues and certain prescribed conditions.
tinyurl.com/d9kzmpa (South Yorkshire).
That guidance also points out the other group of health tourists, UK expats.
Hospital treatment is a different kettle of fish. The Lad has an annual renal check up. Posters in the waiting area were very explicit about need to pay for non-UK/EEA citizens.
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Posters in the waiting area were very explicit about need to pay for non-UK/EEA citizens.
Pity the NHS does not enforce it..
" Overseas patients owe the NHS almost £60 million in unpaid medical bills, with foreign governments among those with the biggest debts"
www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8788386/Overseas-patients-owe-health-service-60m.html
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>> Posters in the waiting area were very explicit about need to pay for non-UK/EEA
>> citizens.
Yes. I thought that exceptionally naive when I looked at it earlier.
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>> >> Posters in the waiting area were very explicit about need to pay for non-UK/EEA
>> >> citizens.
>>
>> Yes. I thought that exceptionally naive when I looked at it earlier.
I'm not naive W, I was trying to grasp/explain the rules.
Whether they're properly enforced is a different question.
And while £60m is a massive figure it needs a context in terms of it's %age of what might be payable.
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>> I'm not naive W, I was trying to grasp/explain the rules.
>>
>> Whether they're properly enforced is a different question.
Yes. Very much so.
We all know the rules are not enforced. Which is why I think an intelligent, well informed man would know that...and why when I posted 'naive' there was a degree of poetic licence.
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>> Whether they're properly enforced is a different question.
I do know they issue invoices, as we received one for treatment my non-EU citizen MIL received at Royal Berkshire Hospital's eye unit once. I can't say what enforcement is like for those who hesitate to cough up though, as we paid on receipt of the invoice. I expect most reasonable people do likewise.
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>> I expect most reasonable people do likewise.
>>
Yes....and all the unreasonable ones do not. Guess which ones I object to having it all for free.
Trouble is, people like me objecting to the unreasonable receiving what they shouldn't, to some people puts you in an unpleasant zone...whereas that is not necessarily the case...you just don't like being taken for a mug with your taxes and having Charlie Freeloader taking out of this country something he knows damned well he isn't supposed to and/or having a significant number of people from other countries coming over here for free medical help that their own countries should be funding, rather than wasting their own GDP income e.g. buying arms and squirreling large sums away into private Swiss bank accounts.
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>> "No free treatment for UK citizens outside of the Kingdom"
>>
>> Not so - your EHIC card entitles you to the same treatment from the public
>> healthcare system in any EU country as their own citizens get. Of course, the Daily
>> Wail is as rabidly anti-Europe as it is anti-everything else, so these facts won't get
>> much publicity...
Yes, but French citizens have to pay for treatment and claim back a percentage from their insurance provider. You are not entitled to free treatment. Have you ever had to have treatment abroad? I think not.
The last time I took ill in France I showed my EHIC to the doctor who gave me a prescription, and I had to pay him €25.00. Went to the pharmacy, and again produced my EHIC and paid for my medication. Both the pharmacy and the doctor gave me a form to complete to send off to the regional health department - can't remember the French designation. Unfortunately, my claim was rejected, despite forwarding my EHIC. When I returned to the UK I spoke to Newcastle and explained the situation and forwarded the forms to them. In the meantime, the French department wrote to me to say they had made a mistake and to forward to them the forms that I had already posted to Newcastle. I later received a cheque for about 20% less than I paid.
I have no experience of claiming in other parts of the EU, but no other country offers a free health service. French citizens have to pay a fee to see the doctor and also a proportion for medicine. This is reclaimed from their insurance provider. If they go to hospital there is a daily "hotel" charge.
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I'm trying to get my head around this, we are having a discussion about a young girl having treatment here for head injuries?We are supposed to be short of money but send young kids to a wasted war in Afghanistan.We always have money for war.There are cuts everywhere in the NHS ,next will be disability payements to vunerable people.Ok there is always a minoriy who will cheat the system but not the majority.It is not what politicans say but what they do and I wish they would leave the NHS alone it will never be provitable.Unless you want the system they have in the States which is scary.I was born in a country where the NHS is top notch similair to the UK.The only difference is that they have a insurance system where the better off pay more.
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www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tot_exp_as_of_gdp-health-total-expenditure-gdp
Assuming the reliability of data, even accounting for a high degree of inefficiency (which is being dealt with at last) we get a good deal for what it costs us.
Even if I wasn't a cog in the machine I'd be proud of the UK NHS and its ideals.
Perfect it is not.
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No system is perfect no matter where you live.The majority of European countrys have good healthcare and problaby the people there are proud of their services.the .Where we have to be carefull is that healthcare shouldn't stop because somebody is old and infirm.I don't like what is happening now that wards are closing again.Or the cancer treatment for children in Leeds is moving to Newcastle which causes a lot of pain for the parents having to travel further,in a already difficult situation.Healthcare is very complex and as a soceity we all have to decide what we want and how much we are willing to pay.I don't always trust politicians making the right decisions for us all.
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>>as a soceity we all have to decide what we want and how much we are willing to pay.
Absolutely spot on.
>>I don't always trust politicians making the right decisions for us all.
Every politician makes the right decision for themselves. We just have to make our decision the right decision for them - and hound them when it isn't made our way.
I don't really care who they sleep with or who they're rude to, just so long as they are doing what they promised the electorate they would do; irrespective of whether or not I agree or voted for them.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 19 Oct 12 at 00:30
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The NHS is long term unaffordable and will have to go insurance based like the French.
That will remove ALL freeloaders at once.
No insurance = no treatment.
Simple.
And everyone - irrespective of whom - HAS to pay for insurance - from salary or benefits (none of this free entitlement rubbish).
A system which is free to use is always abused.
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Or, to take an alternative view of the same situation, a degree of abuse is inevitable, but a price worth paying to live in a country where people aren't afraid to get medical help in case they can't afford it.
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>> Or, to take an alternative view of the same situation, a degree of abuse is
>> inevitable, but a price worth paying to live in a country where people aren't afraid
>> to get medical help in case they can't afford it.
>>
Yes
They can get boob transplants because they need them.,..
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>> Yes
>> They can get boob transplants because they need them.,..
Not having boobs I'm a bit reluctant to assume complaints in that department are necessarily unreasonable..
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>> Yes
>> They can get boob transplants because they need them.,..
>>
or sex changes.
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Not exactly common procedures.
The NHS is not unaffordable - it's a matter of what it wants to provide and what degree of rationing is required.
60 million spent on health tourism is less than 0.1% of the annual budget.
The prevention of health tourism should start at the border.
Asking doctors and nurses not to provide care for people because of their origin is 'against the rules.'
Battlefield doctors treat the enemy the same as their own side - civilians shouldn't be expected to do otherwise.
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The NHS with all its faults takes considerably less in GDP terms than insurance based health care in the USA. Despite the less than universal coverage over the pond, with about 1/6 of the population not covered except for emergencies, the cost of such health care as there is, amounts to 14.6% of GDP. Germany 10.6%, France 9.7%, UK 7.7%. There's a lot of polemic, but little thought, when people spout "we can't afford it".
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Well said, NIL. Among some of the older contributors here, who've spent decades benefiting from the health service and the other civilized benefits this country offers, there's a 'pull up the ladder' attitude that I find profoundly depressing. They like to ascribe their comfortable situation today to their own hard work but they've done nicely out of mortgage interest tax relief, universal Child Benefit, free NHS treatment and an unsustainable and unrepeatable overvaluation of assets that those of us who outlive them will have to pay for. But now what they enjoyed is too good for those that come after - or who happen to be from a poor country that we've messed with for our own dubious purposes.
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>> Well said, NIL. Among some of the older contributors here, who've spent decades benefiting from
>> the health service and the other civilized benefits this country offers, there's a 'pull up
>> the ladder' attitude that I find profoundly depressing. They like to ascribe their comfortable situation
>> today to their own hard work but they've done nicely out of mortgage interest tax
>> relief, universal Child Benefit, free NHS treatment and an unsustainable and unrepeatable overvaluation of assets
>> that those of us who outlive them will have to pay for. But now what
>> they enjoyed is too good for those that come after - or who happen to
>> be from a poor country that we've messed with for our own dubious purposes.
Not to mention free University education with a maintenance grant, And tax relief was not just on mortgage interest but on the premiums for the endowment policy as well.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 19 Oct 12 at 20:45
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Many of them are from countries that we stripped and used to build our foundation of wealth.
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>> Asking doctors and nurses not to provide care for people because of their origin is
>> 'against the rules.'
Why have a system that expects non UK taxpayers to cough up then?
>>
>> Battlefield doctors treat the enemy the same as their own side - civilians shouldn't be
>> expected to do otherwise.
Well let's treat the whole world then.
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As I say, the point of control should be whether or not they get into the country in the first place.
Do you propose not allowing foreigners the protection of our police services too?
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>> As I say, the point of control should be whether or not they get into
>> the country in the first place.
>>
>> Do you propose not allowing foreigners the protection of our police services too?
I propose common sense and acting in a civilised manner...but, not alllowing a continuing free for al for those not entitled to it.
So emergency care....yes, even those not paid in.
Ongoing lengthy health issues....no, go back to where you pay your taxes and have it sorted there.
There are existing rules in place to ensure payment, but most in the health service ignore them.
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>> There are existing rules in place to ensure payment, but most in the health service ignore them.
Better get another layer of managers in to sort it out then ;-)
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>> Better get another layer of managers in to sort it out then ;-)
>>
I'll agree with you on that one. Whenever there's cost savings to be done, it's often a ward shut or nursing posts cut down..not a tier of managers ripped out because they never used to exist and the NHS ran perfectly well without them.
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> I'll agree with you on that one. Whenever there's cost savings to be done, it's
>> often a ward shut or nursing posts cut down..not a tier of managers ripped out
>> because they never used to exist and the NHS ran perfectly well without them.
>>
As in rest of Public and Private sector management is under constant review. My sis is a manager in a Mental Health NHS trust. People go all the time as flatter structures, mergers etc go by. Re-applying for your job in a new structure is a biennial event.
There were managers in the NHS from the day Nye Bevan pushed the button and in the old charitable etc trusts before that. Ever heard of the Almoner?
Up to perhaps seventies too many managers were nurses or clinicians either doing it alongside the day job or pushed behind a desk 'cos they'd peaked at, or were poor at medecine.
How you use the beans matters, that's why you need people who know how to count them
But of course that doesn't suit the narrative of the Daily Wail.
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>> Up to perhaps seventies too many managers were nurses or clinicians either doing it alongside
>> the day job or pushed behind a desk 'cos they'd peaked at, or were poor
>> at medecine.
>>
>> How you use the beans matters, that's why you need people who know how to
>> count them
At the very highest levels, boardroom type etc, I'd have no problem with that philosophy.
At the other levels, particularly nearer the patient, then I do have a problem, because often the managers only manage in a narrow paperwork type jobsworth fashion, they often don't manage with the bigger picture or the patient in mind.
I lost count of the times I'd have a bun fight with the manager of a local mental health unit for many differing reasons on many differing occasions, she was the most unhelpful, unprofessional person I've ever met in public service...it comes to it when the duty psychiatrist comes out of a side door and on the quiet apologises for the service we didn't get (bearing in mind there was someone mentally ill cooped up in a police van for 3 hours outside the place whilst all these shenanigans went on, they were the one who got the truly crap service). I remember the times when the psychiatrist would have been the one making the decisions...and I think he/she should still be....
....and the Matron or modern equivalent should be in charge of the ward...so if someone vomits, it gets cleaned up, not wait for 12 hours until the next cleaner is in, meanwhile there's 'infection city'. Is it any wonder our hospitals are full of MRSA?
There was another one where a duty manager told me there were no staff to help look for a very vulnerable old lady who'd wandered out or may have been still in a large hospital because 'it's friday night, everyone is going home'...Great, meanwhile Mrs Miggins might freeze to death in the hospital grounds and/or I've got to send cops around a hospital traipsing about the place in places they probably shouldn't be. My written report of complaint through my management to the hospital trust showed lo and behold, there was a protocol do deal with this sort of thing...but even if there wasn't why couldn't this tonto make some sensible management decisions and make the system work for the benefit of the vulnerable individual.
The modern management system is:
1, Look at the Standard Operating Procedure and stick to it like glue (the clue is in the word 'standard', sometimes things ain't standard).
2, Shrug the shoulders when it gets difficult and not bother, but say you've tried.
Well often/mostly that's not good enough....
....and that's what you get with a load of managers in the NHS doing things that doctors and nurses used to.
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As soon as something is not universal, and requires means-testing, the cost of administrating rises greatly.
My gut tells me that it would cost more administrating for 'health tourism' than would be delivered in return.
In GP land we do charge to see people who are not part of a reciprocal agreement between the UK and their own country.
We tend to undercharge when compared to more privatised systems - £25-30 for a 10-15 minute consultation is about 1/4 the cost of seeing someone in the US (and about 1/2 the cost of seeing a 'private GP' in the UK).
Where I practice this maybe accounts for 10-20 appointments per year - in London or other cosmopolitan centres I imagine it's much more frequent.
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And before anyone thinks 'going private' is a smart option here's some typical fees:
www.gpplus.com/FEE_STRUCTURE.pdf
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The NHS is good at the emergency stuff...it's the non existent general after care that's the problem (cleanliness/food/drink/general support).
Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 20 Oct 12 at 21:55
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>>The NHS is good at the emergency stuff...it's the non existent general after care that's the problem (cleanliness/food/drink/general support).
You mean the stuff that's not done by doctors or nurses - although there's more effort going into not letting patients get malnourished these days since mealtimes have become 'ring-fenced'.
I'd respectifully suggest that the 'after care' provided by GPs for chronic illnesses is a damn sight better than hospital-based follow-ups.
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Interesting. I think I would be happy to stomp up £90 to see a GP if I don't have to wait a fortnight. Will check out what the position is locally.
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24-48hrs for an appointment at my practice.
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Like many I think I'd be lucky to get an appointment for next week, i.e. 7 days from now. I rate one or two GPs (well one really) above the others... but for something important I'd see anyone. But still it would be about a week.
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The system is set up so that having tons of patients on your books = lots of loot.
There is thus a disincentive to taking on more partners as you make less money.
If they capped income at, say, 1800 patients per GP partner you'd see a lot better accessibility.
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I realise how it works.... and I have no issue with the pay for GPs to be honest. I could have got the necessary A levels to do medicine and be a GP un theory. In practice medicine was not a route for me.
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Slightly tangential, but I once worked for the finance house subsidiary of a large clearing bank.
We had prescribed ways of doing everything, all laid down in three thick books of branch procedures.
If every action which we took (and remember, we were lending money) was "by the book" we absolutely could not be criticised, even of common sense dictated otherwise. If a deal went mammaries up and money was lost, it mattered not providing procedures had been correctly followed.
Periodically the branches were audited for compliance with these instructions and the manager and staff were rated on adherence to BPs before anything else.
If an applicant credit scored "Accept", even if we knew he was a total deadbeat, we, at branch level, were not allowed to decline the application.
I think this rigidity is also prevalent, particularly in public service today, with the attitude being "I've done it by the book - I'm fireproof"
By heck, it was soul destroying after years of actually making decisions!
Last edited by: Roger on Sat 20 Oct 12 at 22:14
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I response to WP's post:
and
3. Pass the responsibility on to the Old Bill.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 20 Oct 12 at 22:16
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True - no jobsworths in the 'Force is there ;-)
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Erin has a Cousin. No surprise there eh! However she (the Cousin) is back and for' at LEAST once a month from Cyprus to attend to her Father in Scotland. After his last spell in hosp' (he is failing now) they, the incompetent fools, sent him home without his false teeth. A simple mistake you may say. However they also sent him home without his shoes and socks! Yes, home bare footed. When Daughter arrived from Cyprus his footwear was with his possessions. This is just one of a number of complete cock ups the old boy has had to endure over the past 3-4 years, some a lot more serious than this.
Independence yes. IF they can pay their own way. Muppets.
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>> and
>>
>> 3. Pass the responsibility on to the Old Bill.
I don't think many people realise it FC. It's where the Old Bill have let themselves down badly by not being savvy enough to publicise it. Whilst they are doing all the social worker/care home etc bit they aren't doing what they could be within policing...and letting down the public police wise.
There are many, many occasions when the Police are the only outfit interested, even if it shouldn't be their remit.
The 'shrug your shoulders and worry about it on Mon morning strategy' is now so prevalent it's become the norm.
e.g.
1, kids missing form children's homes. Ring the police, tell them, it's now their responsibility and now take phone off hook.
2, mental health patient in the community, not responding and not taking medication. Social worker rings the Police at 1545 hours on a Friday, give them all the dets, minus your mobile no. and sod off home for the weekend, just after marking up tour risk assessment that you've asked the Police to do a welfare visit* (*take full responsibility for the patient).
>> True - no jobsworths in the 'Force is there ;-)
Oh there are, we all know there are. Smiley noted.
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I forgot to say that sadly the Police are beginning to go down the 'shrug your shoulders and just do so much' route.
Most control rooms are now fully civilian operated. The 'can do' attitude is badly waning.
SOP's are now at the forefront.
It has already ended in tears a few times...and will do so again. E.g. silent '999' call where some poor victim gets no response because it isn't checked on properly and is presumed to be a line fault or child playing. The worse one I saw (on a national report before I retired) was a helicopter crash in fog, where a walker had heard the thing's engine stop, then a big bang....the rest of the report defied belief. I shouldn't say much more I suppose, because I'm bound by the professional ties of that moment. Suffice to say I can see it happening again..and again...and again.
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Well of your patch WP but not the one up by Honister Pass was it?
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>> Well of your patch WP but not the one up by Honister Pass was it?
>>
Can't remember now. I imagine most of it is out in the public domain, i'll sneak a bit more in. Crash site wasn't found at all quickly until the pilot's wife queried his non arrival at his destination. No one followed up the walker's info????
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This was the one I had in mind.
www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Aerospatiale%20SA.341G%20Gazelle%20HA-LFB%2010-12.pdf
no mention of a walker though so yours may be different. Nasty things choppers; they bite hard.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 21 Oct 12 at 15:10
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>> no mention of a walker though so yours may be different. Nasty things choppers; they
>> bite hard.
>>
No definitely not that one. It involved several jurisdictions of police and air traffic control.
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The much rated (amongst Police Officers - See Inspector Gadget blog) - 999 What's Your Emergency this week focused in on Police dealing with victims of mental health issues. Really good insights from Police and Ambulance staff on the issue. One Officer verbalising the thought that with all the cuts what happens when the Police say "no" to baby-sitting mental health patients.....
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Twice in five minutes I'm agreeing with WP!!
SOP's work fine on planes or ships - provided the Captain can override when he has to. See the Emerald Airways accident at Stansted c 1999 with Leeds United team aboard. Would have been football's second Munich if Captain had followed SoP.
We pay middle managers to make straightforward decisions. Offer guidance by all means but ultimately they're paid £4k a year more than the clerks to own and use discretion.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 20 Oct 12 at 22:49
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Whilst carrying out roofing works for the local hospital I was informed of the following from what I would regard as a totally reliable source. Situation: Two people get admitted for the same clinical procedure. Person 1 has the procedure and makes a full recovery and returns to whatever they were doing before. Person 2 has complications requiring some follow up. The rub seems to be that the LA only gets paid the 'fee' for the procedure once, but has to 'fix' person 2 at their own cost. From reports here (North Devon) that follow up is sadly underwhelming.
MD
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Moving interview with the girl's father on the news tonight - his English was better than some native benefits claiments by the way - anyway you'll be relieved to hear that he wants his family home in the Swat Valley. As I said before this beacon of enlightened thinking would be safer here with us. Doubt whether they'd want our tax pounds.
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I heard the interview as well RP. My impression is that they're professional people and well off by Pakistani standards.
If they did find it necessary to claim asylum over here I doubt they'd need much recourse to govt assistance before finding their feet.
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What was with the guy in the lurid Draig Goch (Welsh Dragon) tie next to them..?
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Dunno; what I heard was on radio.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20093945
>>
>> See the said tie here.
>>
Seems he is Dr David Rosser, the patient's consultant. He pleaded guilty, but insane, to the tie.
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Seems the UK does have its priorities right
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-20908439
Young lady is leaving hospital - her dad has found a job in Birmingham. But no need to write to your MP he is employed by the Pakistani Government.
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In view of some of the comments higher up, the BBC page referenced by RP does say that
"The president of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari, visited Malala at the hospital on 8 December and assured the family his government would meet the expenses of the treatment."
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yup we have behaved in a very humanitarian manner, and its cost us nowt. Whats not to like
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According to the news this evening, Malala has today left hospital for a few weeks.
I wish her a full and speedy recovery!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-20908439
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Dr Dave Rosser shows no shame, regret or guilt. He is still wearing that appalling tie...
Especially after the way Wales performed on Saturday.
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I was half thinking of posting how eloquently spoken the poor girl was.
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Snap Rob she speaks well beyond her years.No hatred or condemnation just gratefull to be still alive.
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Hearing her speak so movingly surely makes the answer to the question posed in the title of this post a resounding "Yes'.
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If that was Malala's own voice that we heard, rather than an interpreter, then her command of English is excellent!
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A wonderful interview with Malala Yousafzai this afternoon on Weekend Woman's Hour, which will presumably be on iPlayer when the programme finishes.
Well worth the listen.
I'm very glad that that a few of my tax pennies might have been used to support her treatment.
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I heard it as well. Well worth whatever it cost us.
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Well a small committee seems to think so!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29564935
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That young Lady deserves a medal. One as Big as a Dustbin lid!
Am I right in thinking that she has just been awarded a share of that?
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34016407
Two years late, I suppose she has been a little on the slow side but then she did get shot in the head, given lots of speeches around the world and got awarded a gong by this lot: www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2014/yousafzai-facts.html.
Oh, almost forgot, English is not her first language.
Looks like she will be making more use of our education system and may even go to university.
Good luck Malala! Happy to have you here!
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Zippy's first link is to a news story about Malala's GCSE results: 6 A*s (including Biology, Chemistry and Physics) and 4 As.
Not bad for someone who got out of hospital only in January 2013, and then returned for a five-hour operation in February. The hearing in her left ear was severely damaged and she has a cochlear implant.
She started school in Birmingham in March 2013. I would say her bravery, her determination and her application have been phenomenal.
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And a fine example to some of the feckless youth of this country...
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Well impressed. She will and deserves to go far!
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Lots of people I know would use the dreadful injuries she suffered as an excuse to become dependent on benefits for the rest of their working lives...Somehow I don't think she will. Hopefully she'll become an UK citizen and work hard here and contribute both intellectually and financially to the country's economy.
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Make that all of the feckless youth. I know a lot of 'youths' probably because I spend a lot of evenings in pubs early doors! The vast majority around where I live are hard working, decent & conscientious. Plenty return from Uni to work behind bars during the summer months, others come home to visit relatives at Xmas and we have a chat in the pub where once they served me. A very small minority, and I both know and see them wasting their time away, are a complete waste of space. I wouldn't trust them to clean my garage door, let alone my car.
That girl is a true inspiration.
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My niece, a BA (1st class honours) this summer. Now works in Wetherspoons alongside her brother...3 years after his graduation with his degree in Computer Design. Seems a waste really. She's going to go back to do her Master's though.
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>> My niece, a BA (1st class honours) this summer. Now works in Wetherspoons alongside her
>> brother...
Does she know any footballers?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205826/Man-U-star-Morgan-Schneiderlin-s-girlfriend-10-hour-shop-girl.html
:)
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>> My niece, a BA (1st class honours) this summer. Now works in Wetherspoons alongside her
>> brother...3 years after his graduation with his degree in Computer Design. Seems a waste really.
>> She's going to go back to do her Master's though.
The key is to do something rather than assuming the right to be selected forthwith for a well paid grad trainee job. Just having got the degree involves learning and practising skills in areas like research and writing that will stand the holder in good stead once they've got a foot in the employment door.
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One of my daughters, the generally cynical one, was at that conference yesterday and came away very impressed by her.
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I'm sure most of you know my usual stance on immigration and the like, but like most I have a number of hats. This girl is is/was exactly that, a Girl. If a child of mine were to be taken to a foreign country for whatever reason I would want that child to have family close by. Malala is only going to bring good. If that goes wrong I'll eat all of my hats. She is going to be a scholar, that is a given and one day a very prominent leader and one for good in my mind. She is not some murky taxi driver preying on underage children like some gangs of certain origins (whether they were born here or not). The world is not fair and is never going to be. That we have to get used to it, but give me Malala any day as opposed to the young British slopey shoulder hoodied unemployable slobs who seem to pervade most of the UK.
As a slight aside last week I ventured where I said I'd NEVER go. I made a general enquiry regarding the possibility of obtaining some Polish labour for the odd occasion I might require some assistance, because as sure as eggs is eggs the 'British' boy doesn't want the work. Let 'em go hungry for all I care. You've gotta get of off yer a*** if you want anything in this life.
Have a nice day y'all.
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>>Malala is only going to bring good. If that goes wrong I'll eat all of my hats. She is going to be a scholar, that is a given and one day a very prominent leader and one for good in my mind
MD, You should have bought a lottery ticket that week as well.
www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-43603844
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Strange thing to say Pat about a girl who was badly injured and was helped in the U.K.
This may be an old discussion but it makes me wonder about your priorities.
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Going back 5 years Dutchie, are you bored with the weather?
Pat
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Maybe he wonders if your initial viewpoint has changed in the past half-decade.
There have been a couple of very recent additions so it's not an entirely "raising Lazarus" response.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 2 Apr 18 at 14:45
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I think we should ask Fluffy to come back and lighten up this forum.
Pat
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Does the UK have it's priorities right? - R.P.
