| Non-motoring > Phones for prisoners | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: BobbyG | Replies: 75 |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 15:26
Phones for prisoners - BobbyG
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21248709 "Telephones and not just televisions should be allowed in prisoners' cells, the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service has suggested. Colin McConnell said helping people keep in touch with their families could help prevent reoffending. He raised the idea with MSPs on Holyrood's Justice Committee. "I know that might stick in the craw of certain members of the public and maybe some members sitting round the table here," Mr McConnell admitted. "It seems to me you get people to behave normally if you treat them normally; you try and recreate normality. "One of the things that's generally accepted helps towards reducing reoffending is relationships and family contact. Television curfew Continue reading the main story “ Start Quote Presumably its monitored so people don't think they are in some kind of Marriot Hotel instead of in prison” End Quote Christine Grahame Justice committee convenor "Anything reasonably and safely we can do to help sustain and develop family contact, we should give it a go." Mr McConnell admitted, in mentioning phones in cells, he was being "a wee bit reformist". The SPS chief executive said he is a "fan of TVs in cells" for prisoners, with "loads of positives that come from that". Labour MSP Graeme Pearson, a former director general of the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency, asked Mr McConnell if a 01:00 television curfew in operation at Low Moss Prison in Bishopbriggs should be extended to all prisoners. The SPS chief executive replied that television could be a "window on the world". "It's about keeping informed about what's going on and actually it's a displacement activity as well," he said. Encouraged to sleep "If it stops somebody thinking horrible thoughts about themselves or others and encourages discourse about Coronation Street, the news or whatever it might be, I think there's loads of positives that come from that. "I know it's one of those issues that polarises people, but I think there's a place for it. Whether it should have a curfew, I think there are pros and cons. "I'd much rather treat people with the respect and decency in the sense of 'please use it sensibly' and those that don't, we might have to curtail it." Mr Pearson, the South of Scotland MSP, had suggested that, having visited the Bishopbriggs facility, the curfew appeared to have a "very positive effect on the prison" because it encourages prisoners to go to sleep, "which means, in the morning, they are more engaged and ready to go out and do something". Committee convener Christine Grahame said both televisions and phones in cells should come "with the caveat that presumably it's monitored what they are watching and obviously phone calls, so people don't think they are in some kind of Marriot Hotel instead of in prison". I am a bit torn in two with this, on one hand I have the attitude that once in jail you should lose all rights, you should be chain ganged and worked your socks off so that once released, you just would not want to go back in. But, on the other hand, we do need to try something to prevent the huge volume of re-offenders coming back through the system after release. This report seems to, in some way, suggesting that if you give prisoners phones as well as their TVs (of which I can see the argument), then they will be a more balanced person and not re-offend? I just can't see that connection at all. It looks more like "while they are in our care I want our lives to be as easy as possible so let them have whatever they want". And since they seem to struggle to prevent mobile phones entering prisons just now, I can't see them being able to apply any controls of these phones once they are inside! Thoughts? Let's see who amongst us is of the compassionate view.... |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 15:56
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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It seems to me you get people to behave normally if you treat them normally; you try and recreate normality I think I subscribe to that theory - but have major doubts, witness intimidation is one of them for instance. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:02
Phones for prisoners - Bromptonaut
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Agree with Rob. There's very little evidence that tough regimes of the boot camp or chain gang variety actually work. Of course there are problems with phones used to call up drugs, intimidate witnesses or carry on directing business as usual. Perhaps some sort of Skype arrangement with access to a limited range of numbers? |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:10
Phones for prisoners - Manatee
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That's very liberal of you, but Shirley if prison is rather like a hotel - bed and board, TV, phone and perhaps a gym/spa - then why would crims be concerned at all about the consequences of re-offending? We've just "been on a Warner's" and paid £100 a night between us for that. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:18
Phones for prisoners - Bromptonaut
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The purpose of prison, in a punitive sense, is deprivation of liberty. In Warners or Center Parks you can come and go as you please and have normal family relationships. The absence of that is far worse than having no telly and a board bed. As I said above and Robin repeats there's not actually much evidence that hard prison regimes do much other than produce hardened individuals. The fact that you and I find the idea of 'hard' prison worse than 'soft' prison means were both probably unlikley offenders. Jeffrey Archer reckoned thast anyone who'd been to an English public school soon felt at home in prison. Us softies in the West Riding's Grammar Schools didn't know we were born!! Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 30 Jan 13 at 16:19
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:27
Phones for prisoners - Armel Coussine
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>> Jeffrey Archer reckoned thast anyone who'd been to an English public school soon felt at home in prison. That has often been said. I once quoted it to a French intellectual and one-time revolutionary who had spent some time in captivity. He wasn't best pleased, and I understand why. Public school has a rough side but I don't remember ever being woken in the middle of the night and subjected to mock executions while dying to pee. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:20
Phones for prisoners - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> We've just "been on a Warner's" and paid £100 a night between us for that. >> I think you'd find that prison is not quite like Warners, whatever facilities are provided. And if it was, would you like to be confined there for the next five years without being allowed outside, away from your family with perhaps just a half hour visit from them every two weeks? You only appreciate freedom when it is taken away from you. I had twelve months at a boarding school and that was bad enough. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:48
Phones for prisoners - bathtub tom
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>>I think you'd find that prison is not quite like Warners, whatever facilities are provided. And if it was, would you like to be confined there for the next five years without being allowed outside More like a cruise then? ;>) |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 17:20
Phones for prisoners - Manatee
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Yes, I was aware of ignoring the liberty part - I get cabin fever on day 3 of a Warner's. But bt has dealt with that one, and that's precisely why I won't go on a cruise! Taking the liberty point though - loss of liberty is rather diluted if you can talk to who you like when you like, and perhaps indulge in facetweeting. Prisoners can already phone family, subject to clearing a few hurdles. www.firsttimeinprison.co.uk/contacting-the-outside-world/ I assume the main proposal is to allow "anytime" calls from cells, with no ability to receive calls at all. I can imagine the argument that facetweeting is a yuman right surfacing fairly quickly. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:51
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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| RR has it. It almost the same as this Universal Credit idea - i.e. bundling all the benefits that a person is entitled into one "pay-cheque" and then allowing the recipient to "budget" for their outgoings. HMG says it's to encourage budgeting skills and a sense of responsibility. Is it a good idea. The liberal in me says "yes", the realist says - "no way Jose"... |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 16:04
Phones for prisoners - Robin O'Reliant
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TV no problem with, phones could pose a problem unless the calls were monitored or were incoming only. I never see the point of treating people like animals just because they are in prison. Apart from being a distasteful form of smug superiority by those of us who are outside (in many cases only because we never got caught) there is no evidence that treating people cruelly stops them from re-offending. On the contrary, it probably hardens many of them. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 17:02
Phones for prisoners - No FM2R
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I am desperately trying to stay off my soapbox; If someone could define what prison is for and what it is expected to achieve, then we could answer the question about what prisoners should or should not receive. i.e. Deterrent = no comforts Revenge = no comforts Rehabilitation = some "earnable" comforts Removal = it doesn't matter My point of view, which I am not capable of pursuing politely and gently, is that prison has no peace in civilized society. Prison does nor deter (nobody believes they will be caught), does not rehabilitate (surround someone with the wrong mentality), Revenge is uncivilized, and as removal is inefficient. If you have to have prison, then give them ever comfort you can. The last thing you needs is a criminal mentality and a resentful or bitter frame of mind on the loose.. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 17:22
Phones for prisoners - Roger.
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Alternatives? Please. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 18:15
Phones for prisoners - Armel Coussine
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>> Alternatives? Not for the first time, I find myself in at least partial agreement with the Rastaman. No one likes prison, and no one thinks being in the slammer does anyone any good. And one can only agree that, tempting though it is, revenge or 'punishment' is a bit ignoble. The social value of prison, despite its flaws and harmful aspects, is that keeps repeat offenders who commit serious crimes out of circulation for a while. Then they come out and are often soon incarcerated again. The tragedy is that so many victimless 'criminals' are shut up with them: junkies, cannabis dealers and so on. By serious crimes I mean crimes of violence, sexual oppression and serious theft: muggers, nonces, burglars, rapists, thugs and murderers. We want as few of these people running around doing their thing as possible. We don't give a damn about them being shut up together like a barrel of crabs. What do these bleeding hearts think we ought to have instead for those categories, given the present configuration of society which isn't going to change overnight? Please, no utopian Hitler carp. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 18:44
Phones for prisoners - Manatee
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>> By serious crimes I mean crimes of violence, sexual oppression and serious theft: muggers, nonces, >> burglars, rapists, thugs and murderers. We want as few of these people running around doing >> their thing as possible. We don't give a damn about them being shut up together >> like a barrel of crabs. And I'm trying to be civilised about it, but I can't see that crims such as these at least should be made comfortable beyond basic needs. They have not earned it, by their actions. Perhaps more importantly, I don't believe that providing extra comforts credibly makes them less likely to return. It might make 'normal', moral people less resentful, more reflective and more receptive to reason, but it strikes me that the less moral and more criminal the mentality, the less will be the gratitude, for want of a better word. It wouldn't be where I'd prioritise money in the context of spending cuts either. Which suggests the question, what contribution are these useless people going to make to deficit reduction? Should they be exempted from that too, in case it upsets them? |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 19:05
Phones for prisoners - madf
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| +1 for AC.. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 19:12
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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| Something needs to be done - the status quo doesn't work - in fact it a proven fact that putting people into prison - certainly first time offenders just makes them worse, OK it protects society for a finite time. Prison does not work. Bullies and thugs thrive within their walls, the young are particularly vulnerable. I've no idea what the answer is. We have a nation ful of damaged individuals - some through no fault of their own. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 19:53
Phones for prisoners - Manatee
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>> Something needs to be done - the status quo doesn't work - in fact it >> a proven fact that putting people into prison - certainly first time offenders just makes >> them worse, OK it protects society for a finite time. Prison does not work. I suppose I need to do some research, but I wonder how it is proven? Have they randomly let a few people off as a control group? I know the recidivism rate is very high, which suggests it doesn't reform or deter the that-way-minded, but why would not sending them to prison work better? They won't pay fines, will they? This is pub talk of course - I know not a lot about prison, or many criminals. I can only name two people I have known personally who went to prison, a bank manager I worked for who committed fraud and a chap I lived next door to who was locked up for chronic drink driving (a good man actually, who became alcoholic, and it definitely did him no good). >> We have a nation full of damaged individuals - some through no >> fault of their own. That must be true. But is the sorting of the damaged wheat from the irredeemable chaff up to the job? Are too many sociopaths getting away with it and too few unfortunates getting the help they need? That would be the worst of both worlds. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 20:01
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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| 3 decades in the trade I suppose. Starting point for the research would be the Joseph Rowntree trust and the Prison Reform Trust I suppose. I just know that the ones I knew who got sent down early on in their lives got worse and were rarely rehabilitated. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 20:37
Phones for prisoners - Armel Coussine
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Manatee and RP: prison is not there to rehabilitate people or teach them the error of their ways. It is an ancient, brutal, crude, undiscriminating social device for keeping them out of circulation for a while. The worst thing about it is that the law - an ass as any fule kno - stuffs them up with victimless criminals and people who aren't criminals at all, or hardly. But as for the real ones, the 'sociopaths' to use fashionable jargon, who gives a damn? |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 20:47
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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| Well they should stop pretending about this rehabilitation nonsense. I've seen some of it (in the Youth DCs mainly) first hand - to be charitable it was poorly delivered. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 20:50
Phones for prisoners - Armel Coussine
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>> as for the real ones, the 'sociopaths' to use fashionable jargon, who gives a damn? And 'damaged individuals' are a general phenomenon not restricted to this society or to the criminal classes in it. Who can say that they aren't 'damaged' at all? Many will insist that they aren't, but they are lying or deluded. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 20:59
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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| Well, one thing is for certain, regardless of what trendy psychobabble people use - the current system is unsustainable - we're sending more and more people to prisons- a hideously expensive way of warehousing problems. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 21:35
Phones for prisoners - Mike H
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>> "One of the things that's generally accepted helps towards reducing reoffending is relationships and family >> contact." >> That's the key. Keep in your mind that it's the person in prison that's offended, not the rest of the family. Anything that keeps family contact alive will reduce re-offending. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 22:03
Phones for prisoners - Falkirk Bairn
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In Scotland many have problems with alcohol - lots of trouble years ago when the pubs closed at 10pm. So we relaxed the laws and in cities a drink can be bought for probably 20 out of the 24 hours in a day.............Hasas this decreased the levels of drink fueled violence or improved people's health by a "relaxed drink regime"......NO, it's worse now than it ever was. People are in prison for a reason - they broke the law, not once or twice but repeatedly .......to be sent to prison now you really have to go out on a limb and offend, re-offend, unpaid fines, refuse probation, community service not completed, 20/30 years ago possession /dealing in drugs you went inside. Today drug offences. with say less than £20K street value will not necessarily put the dealer inside. Build more prisons and make it work........education / work & training not lying on a bunk for 20 hours + exercise/food etc being the balance. Alas new prison buildings and education costs money out of the government coffers............house break-ins, stealing cars - Joe Public and his insurer pays and the government pockets the VAT etc. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 22:11
Phones for prisoners - Robin O'Reliant
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>> People are in prison for a reason - they broke the law, not once or >> twice but repeatedly .......to be sent to prison now you really have to go out >> on a limb and offend, re-offend, unpaid fines, refuse probation, community service not completed, >> >> 20/30 years ago possession /dealing in drugs you went inside. Today drug offences. with say less than £20K street value will not necessarily put the dealer inside. >> >> Yet the prison population is at an all time high, so you can hardly argue that it is harder to get sent away than it used to be. |
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New Wed 30 Jan 13 22:36
Phones for prisoners - Westpig
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I think prisons should be such an awful crap hole, that most would never want to go in there again. I say most, because there's always some who will give it a go anyway..If they're locked up, they aren't causing anyone else any problems. The trouble is with prison thinking, is the intelligent and reasonable assume their viewpoint is replicated in those that habitually go to prison...it isn't, not by a long shot....so being reasonable to them is usually (not always) a complete waste of time and they'll see it as a weakness. The more easy it is made, the less chance the true oik will try to avoid it. Some of these people have a better time of it in prison than they do at home (apart from the loss of liberty of course), so there's not a great deal of deterrent is there? Someone has already said that to get to prison nowadays you are doing well, there's a plethora of 'light slap on hand' sentences to come first. Decent folk would be horrified with a conviction, an oik thinks it's a result to not get any bird. What's next, allow them to have a beer on the weekends, conjugal visits...? |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 08:16
Phones for prisoners - Dog
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>>I think prisons should be such an awful crap hole, that most would never want to go in there again<< ^ This geezer sounds like a copper for gawds sake! And I'm with him 100% in what he says - I had a 3 month short-sharp-shock back in 1968, and I haven't returned (yet) Prison should be HARD, somewhere that you wont want to return to in a hurry. But of course they must also be about rehabilitation of said crim. A lot of inmates have mental health issues and prison isn't the ideal place for them really, but do we live in an ideal world. I met a Polish chap in Plymouth a few years ago, a hard character and a hard drinker, he said "now you've got to stick me in your prisons". What he meant was that the prisons he had known back in Poland were fearsome places, whereas ours are mostly somewhere to go for a rest. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 08:27
Phones for prisoners - Crankcase
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A rough pass at some stats - very rough! If you compare the recidivism rates in Sweden, (where it's generally a much lighter prison regime and people are treated in many cases as needing help, and prisons really are like hotels) with our own you get figures of 40% in their case, and..about 40% in ours. www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics/recidivism.html www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/mojstats/compendium-of-reoffending-statistics-and-analysis.pdf The devil of course is in the detail, and I'm sure other conclusions can be drawn if you read more than the executive summaries. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 08:34
Phones for prisoners - Dog
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>>If you compare the recidivism rates in Sweden ... << I don't think you can compare Sweden with Britain Cc - Britain is a headcase! |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 09:09
Phones for prisoners - Crankcase
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| Maybe the effect is actually the cause. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 08:21
Phones for prisoners - Cliff Pope
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>> >> Keep in your mind that it's the person in prison that's offended, >> not the rest of the family. >> >> I'm not even sure that is really true. It's a bit like the concept of "innocent civilians", or "good Germans". If criminals are damaged individuals resulting from a damaged society, then their own immediate society - family and friends - are in a sense part of the problem. Of course a young child can't share the father's guilt, but there is hardly any system of justice that can avoid punishing the child as well as the parent. And of course the concept of inherited guilt has come back into favour. Politicians, companies, countries are all now expected to apologise or make amends for their ancestors' and predecessors' crimes. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 18:26
Phones for prisoners - Pat
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Hmmm, so no worries about paying Poll Tax, water rates, heating bills or electric. No worries about where the money for tomorrows food is coming from. No worries about paying the rent or mortgage. Not even a problem to pay the phone bill. Entertainment as in a gym and TV and computer on tap. I know many who would give up their so called freedom for that sort of life at least for the winter months. .......in fact, I've been there myself in the dim and distant past but pride sent me potato picking by hand in December just 6 weeks after my son was born instead of turning to crime. Seems to me we reward the lack of pride, the will to work at anything and the basic honesty we are born with, to reward those who take the easy route thrugh life. Pat |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 18:49
Phones for prisoners - Londoner
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Actually, I don't mind prisoners having phones. It's metal files that I mind . . . Even though a softy liberal, this does make me laugh (and give food for thought). It's doing the rounds as an email QUOTE Exciting new Senior Citizen Care Plan: If you're a senior citizen who needs care and the government says they are going to sell your house to pay for your nursing, what do you do? This new plan gives anyone 65 years or older a gun and 4 bullets. You are allowed to shoot four Politicians. Of course, this means you will be sent to prison..... where you will get three meals a day, a roof over your head, central heating, air conditioning and all the health care you need! Need new teeth? No problem. Need glasses? That’s great. Need a new hip, knees, kidney, lungs or heart? They’re all covered. As an added bonus, your kids can come and visit you as often as they do now. And who will be paying for all of this? It’s the same government that just told you that they cannot afford to pay for your nursing care. And you can get rid of 4 useless politicians while you are at it. Plus, because you are a prisoner you don't have to pay tax. Is this a great plan, or what? END-QUOTE |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 18:55
Phones for prisoners - Armel Coussine
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>> I know many who would give up their so called freedom for that sort of life at least for the winter months. A sad, thin, unhealthy life though Pat. It wasn't just pride that stopped you from choosing that path. You preferred life to a long, slow, diseased moral decline. I note that the excellent Perro was reformed by his short sharp shock experience. He was saved perhaps by the same life-loving side, hippyish in his case. One can only hope that many others are too, since the courts are sometimes a bit undiscriminating whatever people may claim. But we have all met - I have anyway - people of a more sour and stubborn cast, and others dogged by misfortune, who seem on a downward path. They are to be pitied in many cases, but also avoided if only for the good of your soul. All such generalisations are pretty worthless in the end. All cases are individual, and surprising changes can occur. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 19:01
Phones for prisoners - Zero
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>> Hmmm, so no worries about paying Poll Tax, water rates, heating bills or electric. >> No worries about where the money for tomorrows food is coming from. >> No worries about paying the rent or mortgage. >> Not even a problem to pay the phone bill. Worries about getting beaten up, worries about getting bullied, worried about Big Bubba in the showers, worried about getting a job when you get out, worried about your family. Yeah sure Jail is the easy option. Honestly its rock all to do with pride, there are plenty of hard solid practical reasons to avoid jail. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 19:32
Phones for prisoners - Londoner
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Oh for heavens's sake lighten up a bit Zero! :-) It's just a bit of tomfoolery to illustrate a point about pensioners. Even I, a trendy lefty, saw the point. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 19:40
Phones for prisoners - Zero
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>> Oh for heavens's sake lighten up a bit Zero! :-) >> It's just a bit of tomfoolery to illustrate a point about pensioners. >> >> Even I, a trendy lefty, saw the point. I was responding to Pat, who did not intend any tomfoolery... |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 19:43
Phones for prisoners - Robin O'Reliant
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>> Oh for heavens's sake lighten up a bit Zero! :-) >> It's just a bit of tomfoolery to illustrate a point about pensioners. >> >> Even I, a trendy lefty, saw the point. >> But there are millions of Daily Mail readers who really believe it to be true. |
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New Thu 31 Jan 13 22:06
Phones for prisoners - Roger.
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So who is to say that millions of Daily Mail readers are wrong? |
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New Fri 1 Feb 13 09:09
Phones for prisoners - Alanovich
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>> So who is to say that millions of Daily Mail readers are wrong? >> The substantially larger number of millions of us who wouldn't wipe their harris with it. |
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New Fri 1 Feb 13 09:35
Phones for prisoners - CGNorwich
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I would point out that millions detesting the Mail does not mean that everything the paper publishes is wrong. (Well someone has to stand up for them in the absence of Iffy.) |
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New Fri 1 Feb 13 04:34
Phones for prisoners - Pat
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>>Worries about getting beaten up, worries about getting bullied, worried about Big Bubba in the showers, worried about getting a job when you get out, worried about your family<< There is that of course, but it does have an 'end date' and an option whether to do it again. For some people no matter how hard they struggle to do the right thing, it seems to be a lifetime uphill struggle with no choice or prospects. I'm on a downer anyway! I've got the prospect of spending 7 hours with 12 of the most militant, gobbiest, opinionated lorry drivers anyone could choose today and tomorrow. If I had handpicked them from the 120 others I worked with I would never have put those 12 in a room together. It's called my old transport managers revenge. They will tell me that compulsory courses are a breach of their human rights, refuse to turn off their phones and are akin to being in prison:) Pat Last edited by: pda on Fri 1 Feb 13 at 04:34
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New Fri 1 Feb 13 08:06
Phones for prisoners - Zero
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| I cant think of anyone better to deal with a class of gobsheits. |
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New Fri 1 Feb 13 09:26
Phones for prisoners - Pat
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TBH I'm really looking forward to it...I love a challenge:) Pat |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 14:11
Phones for prisoners - Armel Coussine
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Not all junkies are bad - indeed most are more or less harmless - but some are. The pair who killed that poor boy in Cardiff for example, both willing to accept a 'contract' on someone they didn't know for a grand each from a 'Qatar-based businessman'. The important thing about them isn't that they are incompetent, confused and stupid - a lot of people are after all - but that they would do something like that. They are seriously wicked individuals and drug addiction has nothing to do with it. The sort of thing that makes one a bit nostalgic, despite oneself as it were, for hanging. After all I am used to the idea having lived with it throughout my childhood and adolescence. |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 14:26
Phones for prisoners - Fullchat
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| Anyone spotted if the person who paid the 'grand' is in the frame or was it 'no comment'? |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 14:28
Phones for prisoners - Armel Coussine
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| Is there an extradition treaty with Qatar one wonders? No doubt a name has been revealed. |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 14:56
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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| Horrific story - and as usual AC has it on the button. Unfortunately for the poor lad involved the navigation of these idiots was confused by drugs. What was offensive was their not guilty pleas and a 4.5 month trial. I thought the family spoke most eloquently - seemed to be good PR for Islam for change. |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 14:58
Phones for prisoners - Westpig
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>> Is there an extradition treaty with Qatar one wonders? No doubt a name has been >> revealed. If someone had paid two grand for you and your mate to kill someone for a minor business dispute...would you tell the Old Bill who it was? You'd be thinking 'I'll be next' wouldn't you? |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 15:05
Phones for prisoners - R.P.
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| The opinion here when watching the more detailed Wales news report is that they do know who he is. The "innocent" proposed victim/witness may well have bubbled him, he was an associate of him - he is or has been on a Witness Protection scheme since. |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 22:05
Phones for prisoners - Westpig
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Anyone see the two Trevor McDonald programmes on an American prison in Indiana? Powerful stuff, esp the death row interviews. Hasn't changed my views though, I still see things more from the victim's perspective. |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 22:25
Phones for prisoners - Dog
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| Yep, I cee'd it too: www.itv.com/itvplayer/inside-death-row-with-trevor-mcdonald |
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New Sat 2 Feb 13 22:33
Phones for prisoners - No FM2R
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Punishment and revenge call for an entirely different type of system than is required by rehabilitation and education. There is no such thing as a deterrent. I know everybody would like to think there is, but there isn't. If there was, then the death penalty would stop murder except for nutters, and it doesn't. I know there'll now be examples of when you had a prison sentence and now live a blameless life, but for the majority it simply does not work that way - by far the overwhelming factor is that nobody commits a crime and intends to be caught and punished. So, if our goal is to punish and take revenge, then it is correct to have the most conceivably brutal system known to man. No luxuries, no concessions, no pleasure. No way out, total pain and misery from the first day to the last. If, however, we prefer an approach which is likely to reduce re-offending, then we need a prison system designed to facilitate that result - which is typically a more tolerant, more liberal, and more freedom oriented approach. In fact frequently not prison at all. If all you want is people out of circulation, then it doesn't really matter what approach you take since that is, at best , a short term goal which by its definition must ultimately fail, unless you are making that removal permanent - i.e. execution as a method of removal, not as a deterrent. There is no point in arguing about how prisons should be, until you have agreed on what you want them to achieve. And I see no sign of widespread agreement on that. Not here, nor anywhere else. And when you say you see things from the victim's perspective, does that mean that you believe he would prefer one approach rather than the other? |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 08:45
Phones for prisoners - Old Navy
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More political hot air? This must be aimed at winding up the do-gooders. tinyurl.com/bksgd2h |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 12:02
Phones for prisoners - Westpig
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>> tinyurl.com/bksgd2h >> Mr Grayling believes prisoners do not deserve the kind of lifestyle and ‘frills’ that are beyond the reach of families on low wages. Yee-hah, at last. Someone in power who thinks like the man on the street. Why do some on the Left think it appropriate to mollycoddle oiks, when good honest hard working folk sometimes struggle. It really puzzles me. Do they honestly believe that showering people with extras and giving them an easy time will sway them back to being good..or is the reality like that of a spoilt kid, i.e. someone who takes it for granted and just wants/expects more and has no intention or need to change for the good. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 10:01
Phones for prisoners - Dog
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There are folk that do commit crime and intend to get caught and punished, due to the fact that their life inside is far better than their life on the out. There are habitual criminals that don't give a monkeys about being rehabilitated and educated. Our prison system endeavours to cater for all types of offender, some prisons are awful places to end up in, whereas open prisons are like holiday camps. There are some ultra-violent prisoners en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson_(prisoner) that just need to be locked up - until the end of time. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 11:56
Phones for prisoners - Westpig
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>> So, if our goal is to punish and take revenge, then it is correct to >> have the most conceivably brutal system known to man. No luxuries, no concessions, no pleasure. >> No way out, total pain and misery from the first day to the last. I disagree with that. My goal would be to punish and take revenge...but...if we are supposed to be civilised, we should have a degree of decorum on how we go about it. >> >> If, however, we prefer an approach which is likely to reduce re-offending, then we need >> a prison system designed to facilitate that result - which is typically a more tolerant, >> more liberal, and more freedom oriented approach. In fact frequently not prison at all. I disagree with that as well. There are some, quite a few actually of the minority that habitually offend, who see any kind of non custodial sentence as a result. They see kindness as a weakness. For them prison is the only option for any kind of punishment and you can forget rehabilitation. There will no doubt be some who could have forward thinking rehabilitation systems work..but...you also need to deal with those I've just highlighted above, not ignore them and their incredibly selfish ways. >> >> If all you want is people out of circulation, then it doesn't really matter what >> approach you take Well it is if you are or are supposed to be civilised and it is if you think that people should take responsibility for their wrongdoing and take the punishment for the crime. >> And when you say you see things from the victim's perspective, does that mean that >> you believe he would prefer one approach rather than the other? Yes. See above. The balance between victim's rights and prisoner's rights has become badly unbalanced. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 13:00
Phones for prisoners - Manatee
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I don't have the knowledge of the criminal mind that Westpig has but it strikes me you'd need some sort of brainwashing or coercive reprogramming to rehabilitate the majority of the properly bad ones. There are some good reasons not to let that sort of idea take hold, so in the meantime, best bang them up. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 13:20
Phones for prisoners - Dutchie
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You can only bang them up for so long depending what crime is committed.One day they come out.The Chief Constable of Humberside mentioned this about revolving doors.Same people arrested over again. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 14:56
Phones for prisoners - Fullchat
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| Always been the case Dutchie. There are however the younger element that go through a phase then eventually 'grow up'. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 14:56
Phones for prisoners - Old Navy
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I am sure the police have their regular customers, as do the NHS, ambulance service, and hundreds of complaint departments. A friend is an NHS 24 call centre operator, they certainly have regular customers, (I won't say what she calls them). :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 3 Feb 13 at 15:00
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 18:14
Phones for prisoners - No FM2R
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>> I disagree with that. My goal would be to punish and take revenge...but...if we are >> supposed to be civilised, we should have a degree of decorum on how we go >> about it. Your point being that revenge is civilised and the only difference between good revenge and bad revenge is a degree of decorum? >> >> If, however, we prefer an approach which is likely to reduce re-offending, then we >> need a prison system designed to facilitate that result - >> I disagree with that as well. Read the facts, it'll help. >>but...you also need to deal with those I've just highlighted above, not ignore them and >> their incredibly selfish ways. Now that is a very valid point. How does one deal with the exceptions? I personally favour permanently removing them from society - i.e. execution. If that is too tough, then the alternative is the whole prison island approach - which seems fraught with failure and I;m not sure its any more humane. >>if you think that people should take responsibility for their wrongdoing and take the punishment for the crime. Does that (apology and acceptance) matter more to you than whether or not they re-offend? >>The balance between victim's rights and prisoner's rights has become badly unbalanced. Which rights in particular? Really, that's a tabloid statement. Are one's rights better protected with revenge or with improved assurance of non-re-occurrence? The problem with this subject is that I believe it is beyond the wit of most people to consider it outside their own prejudices and bias. And thus, I shall leave you all to it. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 18:54
Phones for prisoners - Westpig
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>> Your point being that revenge is civilised and the only difference between good revenge and >> bad revenge is a degree of decorum? Yes. If you do wrong, you need to know there's consequences that go with it. 'Good' consequences might be incarcerating someone, but still giving them decent sustenance and medical care...'bad' you can probably work out. >> Read the facts, it'll help. ...and what facts might those be then? >> >>but...you also need to deal with those I've just highlighted above, not ignore them and >> >> their incredibly selfish ways. >> >> Now that is a very valid point. How does one deal with the exceptions? I >> personally favour permanently removing them from society - i.e. execution. If that is too tough, >> then the alternative is the whole prison island approach - which seems fraught with failure >> and I;m not sure its any more humane. You seem to be at either one extreme or the other. >> >>if you think that people should take responsibility for their wrongdoing and take the punishment >> for the crime. >> >> Does that (apology and acceptance) matter more to you than whether or not they re-offend? About equal i'd say. I'd love there to be a very successful rehabilitation programme, but it would need to go hand in hand with the punishment. However, there isn't and IMO there isn't likely to be. >> >> >>The balance between victim's rights and prisoner's rights has become badly unbalanced. >> >> Which rights in particular? Really, that's a tabloid statement. ...and why do you say that? Victims have long been the poor relations. Are one's rights better protected with >> revenge or with improved assurance of non-re-occurrence? Why not have both. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 19:45
Phones for prisoners - No FM2R
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I mean no offence, but this will be my last word.... Why does punishment and revenge really matter? I mean, I get the emotional points, but in the scheme of things if we had a utopia where everybody who offended could be shown the error of their ways and would never offend again, in that context would punishment and revenge matter? And various figures from various prison systems tend to show that the more generous programmes have lower reoffending rates. Sometimes outstandingly so. The extrapolation of that is that our need for revenge/punishment is part of the issue in causing higher reoffending rates. And for me, categorically, reoffending rates are more important than revenge or punishment. And we talk about, as you mentioned, a perceived imbalance between the rights of the offender and the rights of the victims. However, they are not on the same set of scales. More of one does not necessarily mean less of the other. So the fact that we are not valuing the rights of the victim is absolutely disconnected with what we do or do not do with the rights of the offender. However, I do believe that there are those who for one reason or another cannot be "reconstructed". As a society we need to decide whether or not we want them as part of our society. Surely to be part of a society one needs to accept the rules of that society? - which is surely the basis of imprisoning any offender? And if one refuses to accept those rules, to an extreme degree, then should one retain a right to be part? And I would choose not. Overall, I do not see the value of revenge and punishment; merely temporary emotional relief which overall has a negative damaging impact. Any more than these days I would punch somebody for "offending" me. Retribution was stupid when I was 20, and it remains stupid now. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 20:15
Phones for prisoners - ....
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Last year it was votes for Prisoners. What about the honest, law abiding, tax payer who has moved country within the EU and is not allowed to vote in the country which they contribute by paying taxes ? I would say they were slightly further up the pecking order than people who have, for whatever reason, not complied with the law of the respective land they happen to be in within the EU. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 20:42
Phones for prisoners - Bromptonaut
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>> Last year it was votes for Prisoners. >> What about the honest, law abiding, tax payer who has moved country within the EU >> and is not allowed to vote in the country which they contribute by paying taxes >> ? >> I would say they were slightly further up the pecking order than people who have, >> for whatever reason, not complied with the law of the respective land they happen to >> be in within the EU. Not one or the other though is it? The votes for prisoners thing would be easily satisfied by allowing a postal vote to those on short term sentences and perhaps those due for release within two years. Govt just needs to do it instead of posturing about being 'sick to stomach' for benefit of Daily Wail etc. Votes for those who've moved around in EU is complex as or every one wanting a vote in the country in which they pay taxes there will be another talking of their roots at home. Would UK citizens in say Boston be happy that local elections were influenced by the Polish vote? Not insoluble but needs some international agreement. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 20:52
Phones for prisoners - Dutchie
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I can vote in the local elections but not in the general election. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 20:54
Phones for prisoners - ....
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| Same here Dutchie, but you contributed to the UK in taxes so you should have had some say after 20 or 30 years you'd think. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 21:05
Phones for prisoners - Zero
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>> Same here Dutchie, but you contributed to the UK in taxes so you should have >> had some say after 20 or 30 years you'd think. If you want a say you become a full british citizen. I don't want some bleedin hun deciding on who governs the country any more than he wants some turk deciding his., |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 21:10
Phones for prisoners - ....
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As a British Citizen I have a say in neither the UK or Germany. I don't get a say in the UK because I've been gone too long and I don't get a say in Germany because I'm not German. In that case I should only have to pay for my kids ejumacation and health care and screw anything I don't benefit from. That's not how it works out though is it. End result: Doss about at home, knock seven bells out of a pensioner, get banged up and the EU is your mate. Move to get on, get your head down and work your nuts off and while your down there take one from the private school boys. Last edited by: gmac on Sun 3 Feb 13 at 21:12
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 21:25
Phones for prisoners - Bromptonaut
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>> End result: Doss about at home, knock seven bells out of a pensioner, get banged >> up and the EU is your mate. Move to get on, get your head down >> and work your nuts off and while your down there take one from the private >> school boys. The prisoners votes thing is not directed by the EU. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 3 Feb 13 at 21:26
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 21:30
Phones for prisoners - ....
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>> The prisoners votes thing is not directed by the EU. >> Sorry, European Court of Human Rights. |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 20:53
Phones for prisoners - ....
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Take the point Bromptonaut however if the person is making a contribution why should they not have a voice ? Why does the UK not have rules in place similar to other EU countries ? If all the eastern Europeans are making a B-line for the UK what have the countries they are travelling through got in place that makes them so unattractive as not worth stopping in ? Clue: I was made redundant in 2009 and was told if I had not paid taxes for 5 years I would have been entitled to the square root of pharque hall in state aid while looking for a new job. Why is this not in place in the UK ? |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 21:43
Phones for prisoners - Meldrew
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A problem across all our methods of dealing with criminal behaviour seem to me to be the fact that we keep bringing in new legislation when strict enforcement of existing of existing laws would work. This legislation was introduced in December 2012:- "A raft of new criminal offences have come into force in England and Wales, as well as tougher prison sentences for violent crimes. There is a new offence of aggravated possession of a knife, and mandatory life sentences for anyone committing a second serious violent or sexual crime" People are getting police cautions for violent and sexual offences and here are proposals to put 2nd time offenders in Prison for life. I wonder how many times that has happened so far? I'l bet plenty qualify for this already |
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New Sun 3 Feb 13 22:49
Phones for prisoners - Westpig
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>> People are getting police cautions for violent and sexual offences >> There can be a good reason for that. If there is insufficient evidence for a realistic prosecution (bearing in mind the Police have to get it past the CPS before any prosecution can be considered and there can be difficulties with that system shall we say)...and the Police think the suspect is as Guilty as sin....and the suspect knows he's as Guilty as sin....and the suspect has no idea what the true depth of the evidence is ...then a Caution is offered...and accepted. From the Police angle, better than nothing. From the suspect angle, better than going to court. It shouldn't really happen like that..but it does...it's a game of Poker. |
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