Some info
drjulialewis.com/memory-loss-can-happen-after-surgery-what-then/
psychcentral.com/news/2012/07/07/delirium-after-cardiac-surgery-tied-to-memory-problems/41305.html
my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/services/bypass_surgery/neurological_effects.aspx
It appears that patients aged 60+ are more likely to experience this.
I was not aware of this condition and was not warned about it.
SWMBO had an operation a year ago and has been affected by it and I am having to adapt to it.
I think there is a slight gradual improvement.
I have yet to find any trusted info re treatment and it appears irreversible.
SWMBO is due a non optional heart op so I just hope things work out better.
"For many surgical patients, POCD disappears within a year. A small number, however, may have lasting memory problems. We don’t know of any way to reverse such cognitive decline."
IMO it is worth considering having ops like new knees earlier rather than hanging on.
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The older you are, the more reluctant they are to give you a general anaesthetic, especially for a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a connection.
But needs must of course when the devil drives. Hope yr missus does all right hk.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 21 Jun 13 at 01:15
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I have heard of someone's personality changing too. Worrying.
I'm sure I must have clogged arteries, maybe I should get looked at before I get any older.
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Since we haven't the faintest idea how general anaesthesia works, I suppose it's not particularly surprising that it might cause problems in the elderly (and, arguably, in the very young).
Normal healthy adults? Probably not*.
* Based on survey of one.
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My father had a new hip joint at the age of 92. Done with a spinal anaestheic - he was totally alert and talking on the phone 30 minutes after being out of theatre. No POCD - if anything he is doing the Telegraph cryptic crossword faster than before, (and faster than me!).
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>> talking on the phone 30 minutes after
>> being out of theatre.
>>
Charles I walked and talked half an hour after his head was cut off.
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...and a certain Aramaic speaking Hebrew, according to myth, rose from the dead and ascended into the sky !
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 21 Jun 13 at 20:00
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You could try a vitamin B complex tablet each day.
There is a Prof. David Smith heading up a dementia study at Oxford university where he claims to have reduced age related brain shrinkage by 90% using a high strength daily dose of B6, B9 and B12 -- the amount of B6 he used was 40mg. And less memory loss. It has been known for some time that the B's can help memory but this is the first proper field trial.
The company Healthspan sell a "High Strength Vitamin B Complex" tablet -- (I have no connection with them) that has exactly half the quantity of those three that he used in the trial.
It also has some other bits so perhaps not 2 a day.
There is no doubt that making sure you have enough of the B's in old age is a good idea unless you have a problem taking them.
.
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Beer contains vitamin B.
That's my excuse anyway.
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I suspect much of it is to do with a failure to keep the brain oxygenated sufficiently during surgery.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Jun 13 at 21:16
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>> I suspect much of it is to do with a failure to keep the brain
>> oxygenated sufficiently during surgery.
That sounds entirely plausible.
An 85 year old friend of mine had heart surgery recently. Long operation. Physically quite fit, or he wouldn't have been given it. He scarcely knew where he was for about 6 weeks, I thought he was a goner.
Happily he now seems to be getting his marbles back.
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>> I suspect much of it is to do with a failure to keep the brain oxygenated sufficiently during surgery.
Not in the sense of someone who is being suffocated I think.
The major culprit in heart surgery is likely to be chunks of arterial fatty/cholesterol deposits, and pieces of tissue scooting up the carotids from the field of surgery into the brain, causing a widespread region of mini strokes.
Crush an old artery with a clamp and some crud will be dislodged and head off downstream.
Some of these areas will recover quickly, some slowly, and some not at all.
Dr Lewis in the OP's first link appears to have something to sell - snake oil is everywhere ;-)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 21 Jun 13 at 22:11
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Lygonos
A lot of what you have posted makes sense.
Certainly several items I have read segregate heart operations from all others and seem to indicate that there are higher risks of POCD.
I guess the carotids scan that SWMBO had last week also points to checking the risks pre op.
We are still awaiting a date for the op and incurred a further delay of at least three weeks due to crass procedures and inefficiency in the NHS.
The fact that it cost us both a whole afternoon at the hospital plus car park fees to achieve a big fat ZERO and we can tolerate that but they knew in advance it was a total utter waste of every ones time and worst of all some other person could have had that slot.
Rant over.
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I did read a little about POCD after my heart op in February. I was certainly making small mistakes and forgetting stuff after I got home.
When I got back to working after about 6 weeks, I did forget one or two dates to do things on and suchlike. Nothing serious. The worst thing was taking the wrong car to be serviced.It was one letter out on the reg no. and I got it in my mind that it was the car from a particular street.
The main dealer didn't help by not checking their records and seeing they had done it a few months before. I seem to have got over that period now but I tease the fleet manager every time he gives me a job, asking him if it's the car in Abingdon Street he's talking about !
Ted
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When my BiL had heart surgery he suffered a form of POCD, forgetfulness, but also slight, temporary, personality change. Not good, but better than a duff ticker.
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>> When my BiL had heart surgery he suffered a form of POCD, forgetfulness, but also
>> slight, temporary, personality change. Not good, but better than a duff ticker.
>>
SWMBO is still suffering from forgetfulness a year after her last op so from what I read things will not now improve.
I am suffering to a far lesser degree trying to adapt to the situation.
SWMBO has a very low pain threshold which implies big doses of pain killers and I had to closely monitor her all day the next day after her op as she was off with the fairies.
The heart op is a must but very worrying from the POCD angle.
Not helped by a big spread in the DM
www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2358493/How-general-anaesthetic-harm-memory-life-Research-finds-quarters-older-patients-develop-memory-loss-surgery.html
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>>
>>
>> Crush an old artery with a clamp and some crud will be dislodged and head
>> off downstream.
>>
Like using engine flush
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Some sort of full flow filter needed? Or a by-pass job:)
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After by-pass surgery my short-term memory was badly affected, but gradually recovered, now 10yrs on, I still struggle with names, and often get to a room in the house and then think "what did i come here for" !! - sometimes i don't remember until i return to what i was doing before, then remember i went for the screwdriver!.
There was a Documentary a couple of years ago about this problem, and an Anesthetist was worried at the amount of people that POCD affected post-surgery, so he developed a Plaque-counter that "clicked" every time a plaque above a certain size passed on it's way to the brain. It was so effective that alot of Surgeons refused to let him use it when they operated, as the constant clicking unsettled them! - every click was a "possible" Stroke!
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>> .............. so he developed a
>> Plaque-counter that "clicked" every time a plaque above a certain size passed on it's way
>> to the brain.
What's a plaque in that context?
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>>What's a plaque in that context?<<
N0 4 - a bit of which breaks off.
plaque
[plak] Show IPA
noun
1.
a thin, flat plate or tablet of metal, porcelain, etc., intended for ornament, as on a wall, or set in a piece of furniture.
2.
an inscribed commemorative tablet, usually of metal placed on a building, monument, or the like.
3.
a platelike brooch or ornament, especially one worn as the badge of an honorary order.
4.
Anatomy, Pathology . a flat, often raised, patch on the skin or other organ, as on the inner lining of arterial walls in atherosclerosis.
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>> >> .............. so he developed a
>> >> Plaque-counter that "clicked" every time a plaque above a certain size passed on it's
>> way
>> >> to the brain.
>>
>> What's a plaque in that context?
See Dr Lygonos's contributions upthread.
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I think I've got POWD ............. Post Operative Waterworks Decline.
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I was given chloroform when I had my tonsils out when I was seven, and my memory has been bad ever since. I can hardly remember anything that happened before I was seven. What's the earliest you can remember?
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One faint memory of about five, but I'm not sure if that was actually a dream. Then about three memories till yesterday, which has already faded. When people ask me on Mondays what I did at the weekend I always struggle to recall.
Makes life difficult. I can just about recall a few bits about getting married, but there are literally decades where I have no clue at all what happened.
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Harold Wilson was said to be a victim of a POCD type syndrome.
His recall and wit were much dimmed following abdominal surgery for cancer after he left office.
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>> Harold Wilson was said to be a victim of a POCD type syndrome.
I'm sure the anaesthetic didn't help at all, but how much of Wilson's decline was due to Alzheimer's disease?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7720200.stm
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I spend a lot of time thinking about the hereafter, I go somewhere to get something, and then wonder what I'm here after.
:o)
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I think I have Pre-operative cognitive decline.
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Just an update.
My wife's memory problems have not changed in the last 15 months since the operation so I think the situation is what we have to live with.
It is sometimes / often difficult to deal with.
Sometimes her not remembering, literally, from a second ago is frustrating to us both.
With thought processes disrupted wrong conclusions are presented as THE answer and then I have to somehow " correct" things trying not to cause upset.
I have to monitor things a lot more closely. Items are not in their normal place.
Silly indicators of her changed brain. Things that were always so so are no longer noticed, like the seat cover on the loo is left up, no longer bleach down the loo every day etc.
We are still able to have generally normal conversations but she is more than aware of her memory problems.
There was nothing I am aware of to stop a heart valve wearing out so an operation was required.
Maybe the rest of us should pay more attention to looking after out tickers !
p.s. I am now waiting for some stents so I have to very carefully pace things even in the home. and I now have to carry my little Glyceryl Trinitrate spray with me.
So the new check list is No 1 - GT followed by the old T,S,W.W and the obvious house keys and car keys oh and finally SWMBO.
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So sorry, Henry, it must be very difficult for you both.
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I was quite relaxed before and after my double knee replacement in 2001and I have put gradual cognitive decline since down to general aging. What was very noticeable almost straight away however was a great revulsion to violence, although I was never a fan. I now find TV and films scenes featuring it, from deliberate brutality to sufferings from illness or accident, spoken examples of it and even thoughts of it very hard to take. I shut my eyes and shut down my thought processes until an episode has passed.
My theory: Although screened out of my conscious mind by anaesthetics I am subconsciously aware that I experienced a massive shock and great pain.
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Oh dear, Henry - my sympathies, too.
That's a tough cross to bear.
Last edited by: Roger. on Wed 10 Dec 14 at 14:35
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Thanks again to all for your support and kind words
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POCD. Post Operative Cognitive Decline, - Armel Coussine
