Had to laugh at the hypocrisy of the C of E in relation to wanting to put Wonga out of business.
Pay day loan companies aren't saints but to actively state you want to put a business out of business seems a statement too far for the church.
Once again it seems a religious organisation is giving us it's pen'orth and interfering, only to discover it helped indirectly back the company financially.
Perhaps the church ought to staty out of politics and get its own house in order before dictating how businesses should be run.
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>> Once again it seems a religious organisation is giving us it's pen'orth and interfering, only
>> to discover it helped indirectly back the company financially.
Rearrange the following.
CoE, Drain, Credibility, the, down.
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While I don't agree with the C of E involvement, I do get very frustrated about the governments lack of being able to use common sense and apply policies to protect the vulnerable in society.
Companies like Wonga, Bright House etc are just morally preying on the poorer of society and we can't seem to be able to say, hold on a minute, this ain't on.
They are no doubt protected by some sort of EU trading agreement or some such, or more likely are healthy donators to one of the political parties to keep them on side.
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The Church Commission has an enormous property and investment portfolio, apparently not governed by pious men of God. I seem to remember that a lot of the houses run by Rachman et al. in old Notting Hill were leased from the Church Commission.
Not very fly of the Archbish (a former oil executive) or his staff to fail to check for a piece of Wonga or its parent corporation.
The Wonga.com TV ads are among the most egregious and patronising carp in a medium stuffed with such rubbish. Tertiary banking and ambulance chasers soliciting people to make fraudulent insurance claims need to be curbed urgently. Capitalism and gangsterism have always overlapped, but it's possible for that stuff to go too far.
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>> While I don't agree with the C of E involvement, I do get very frustrated
>> about the governments lack of being able to use common sense and apply policies to
>> protect the vulnerable in society.
>>
>> Companies like Wonga, Bright House etc are just morally preying on the poorer of society
>> and we can't seem to be able to say, hold on a minute, this ain't
>> on.
Ok so we ban the likes of Wonga. Where do the vunerable get loans from? Dont forget they are high risk, and have been refused money elsewhere.
Do you know what percentage of Wonga type loans are carried over, do you know what percentage of wonga customers cant or dont repay the debt?
Lets see some fact before we get all pious over short term lenders. Do you know the alternatives? the big hairy tattooed mofo with the little black book and the baseball bat?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Jul 13 at 14:55
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>> Where do the vunerable get loans from?
Somewhere that doesn't charge 3,000% annual interest, ideally. The High Street banks should be encouraged to get their act together.
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"Do you know what percentage of Wonga type loans are carried over, do you know what percentage of wonga customers cant or dont repay the debt?"
According to Wikipedia: "...Wonga's technology could reliably reject two thirds of applications and predict to 93% accuracy the ability of a customer to repay a loan." If that is correct (and I haven't followed it up) it suggests Wonga lends to people who can and do repay the loan, on the whole - which makes their interest rates even harder to swallow.
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>> Wonga lends to people who can and
>> do repay the loan, on the whole - which makes their interest rates even harder
>> to swallow.
Clearly not for the borrowers.
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I think, unfortunately, Wonga caters to lend to financially naive people. Good example is article on BBC News about a woman who was reluctant to claim a 4.5 million pound lottery win because of the cost of calling an 0870 number, while completely missing the irony of wasting money on a lottery ticket.
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">> Wonga lends to people who can and
>> do repay the loan, on the whole - which makes their interest rates even harder
>> to swallow.
Clearly not for the borrowers."
Clearly not. In my view the whole problem is largely created by people's attitudes and expectations, their mind-set and their aspirations, the consumer society, materialism, instant gratification and so forth. My own philosophy is that if you can't afford it, you don't have it, but that doesn't apply to a lot of people.
My guess is that loans from Wonga and the like are not made to "poor" people (whatever that means), as mostly these loans are repaid. They are made to people who are stretching their purchasing power to the limit. Financially, it's living hand-to-mouth and the stupid thing is that it's more expensive than saving up for something.
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>> ">> Wonga lends to people who can and
>> >> do repay the loan, on the whole - which makes their interest rates
>> even harder
>> >> to swallow.
>>
>> Clearly not for the borrowers."
>>
>> Clearly not. In my view the whole problem is largely created by people's attitudes and
>> expectations, their mind-set and their aspirations, the consumer society, materialism, instant gratification and so forth.
>> My own philosophy is that if you can't afford it, you don't have it, but
>> that doesn't apply to a lot of people.
>>
>> My guess is that loans from Wonga and the like are not made to "poor"
>> people (whatever that means), as mostly these loans are repaid. They are made to people
>> who are stretching their purchasing power to the limit. Financially, it's living hand-to-mouth and the
>> stupid thing is that it's more expensive than saving up for something.
Not always Wonga loans are made to people who cant get a bank overdraft. Its short term loan remember.
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>> My own philosophy is that if you can't afford it, you don't have it, but
>> that doesn't apply to a lot of people.
When you're down and its all going wrong then maybe you have this choice;
A TV to watch now.
A bed to sleep on now.
A beer to drink now.
And a chance to feel just a little better for just a little time.
At some indeterminate time in your seemingly dismal future, maybe somebody will be trying to sue you for money you haven't got, trying to ruin a credit reference you haven't got and trying to make your life a misery, which it already is and anyway 20 other people have already tried.
When you're down there comes a point where being beaten isn't really a worry. Because you know its going to happen, you're used to it. And who cares who it is?
I'm not saying its right, but I do understand it.
However, as a society we should help those people where possible. And that shouldn't include making a fortune out of their benefit payments.
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If only it was as simple as that Mark - Two examples for you.
1. Housing Benefit has traditionally been paid on the Local Housing Rate, linked to the market in the postcode area. That, apart from basic eligibility was the only test. For families of a working age now, HMG has decreed that there will be a reduction in HB for people perceived by a broadbrush test to have too many bedrooms in their social housing have a reduction of up to 25% in their HB - this has been introduced without appropriate allowance for supply of suitably sized alternative accommodation - i.e. if Local Authorities and Housing Associations had been given sufficient notice they could have planned for a "better" mix of housing when they were developing them. LAs and HAs are now seeing a massive drop in income as people fall behind with their rent (who were actually "paying" before) thus reducing their ability to maintain or invest in new stock. I actually agree with the principle of the Bedroom Tax but it has been mismanaged.
2. Employment and Support Allowance is replacing the old Incapacity Benefit - this means that people's medical conditions are being assessed by a dreadful company ATOS who are turning down people for the new benefit - these then have to sign on for Job Seekers Allowance and the Job Centres are refusing to pay them as they perceive them to be unfit for work ! Around 40% of the ESA assessments are being turned around by the Tribunal Service as being incorrect or unjustified - HM Tribunal Service now has a huge backlog created by ATOS appeals.
These people are already on the knife-edge of survival anyway and taking away or reducing benefits in an arbitrary way is causing genuine need and suffering
I've learnt in the last two years that the vast majority of benefit claimants are genuine people and the UK is not populated by people stereotyped by the the Daily Mail and its ilk.
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I think I must have mis-explained R.P.....
" the vast majority of benefit claimants are genuine people"
My point was just that.
Ordinary people who have been beaten down by circumstance, albeit that circumstance may well be of their own making.
But once you have been beaten down, however it happened, then short term cheer such as may be achieved with a nonsensical loan, may well be more significant in your mind thanthe risk of yet another person chasing you for unpaid debt at some point in the future.
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Sorry Mark, and you're quite right ! Interesting whether the Church should be addressing the cause or effect ?
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>>whether the Church should be addressing the cause or effect ?
I think you'll find the Church does what it all ways does, spout endlessly about what evervbody else should be doing, but do nothing material itself.
Not to say that some individuals within the Church don't do a great deal of good, but the main and central establishment itself seems largely without merit.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 27 Jul 13 at 18:58
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Maybe Wellby might change that ??
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I'd like to think so, but that would be one hell of an uphill struggle.
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>>However, as a society we should help those people where possible. And that shouldn't
>>include making a fortune out of their benefit payments.
Our benefit payments. But I agree absolutely.
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>>Ok so we ban the likes of Wonga. Where do the vunerable get loans from? Dont forget they are high risk, and have been refused money elsewhere.
Do you know what percentage of Wonga type loans are carried over, do you know what percentage of wonga customers cant or dont repay the debt?
No I don't, but every day I am in communities in Glasgow which are hugely socially deprived, huge unemployment and I see the punters queuing up in Bright House to pay their weekly amounts, I see them being attracted to the loans companies with their glitzy advertising.
We sell second hand furniture in our shops and we will get a lot of poor customers coming in to maybe buy a bed, or couch or whatever and they will pay a deposit, then maybe the balance over the next one or two weeks until they have paid the selling price. But for others, who for whatever reason need a couch bed or whatever , its very easy to go into Bright House, sign for it, get a quick delivery and then "worry about paying for it later".
Yes its easy to sit back in our comfortable lifestyles and say that they need educated how to deal with their money, or to save up until they have enough money to buy things but when you are living on a basic amount, trying to juggle everything and get hit with unexpected bills or whatever then its a lot easier to get the money when every second shop in the local shopping centre is a loan or pawn shop.
I don't have the answer how to get round it, perhaps better availability of loans from income source, whether it be DSS or employer. Credit Unions for lower rates.
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I did some work with bright House, or Crazy George's as they then were. What a disgusting business model - selling people shiny stuff at over-expensive prices that they can't afford at what I'd consider exorbitant interest rates.
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>> I don't have the answer how to get round it, perhaps better availability of loans
>> from income source, whether it be DSS or employer. Credit Unions for lower rates.
Hey, I know. The Catholic and English churches could cash in all their 10 billion pounds investment portfolio and start a bank for the poor. Offer loans to high risk unsecured borrowers at cheap interest rates.
Why havent they? The vatican already has a bank.
(I know the answer "why haven't they" Its extremely unpalatable, I wont bother to expand that bit)
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>>Companies like Wonga, Bright House etc are just morally preying on the poorer of society and we can't seem to be able to say, hold on a minute, this ain't on
Up to a point.
1) Many of the customers of these firms would be better advised not to borrow at all, but it isn't up to us to make the decision for them.
2) If you put a cap on APRs, or banned sub-prime/payday/doorstep lenders, the poor wouldn't be able to borrow from regulated lenders, but there would be no shortage of unregulated ones with far more punitive default measures from which bankruptcy would be no protection.
3) More financial education would be a good thing.
There's a lot of cobblers talked about APRs.
What's a rip off APR? 30%, 100%? - 500%?
If somebody asked you on a Monday to lend them £100 until Friday and said they'd give you £110 back, would that sound reasonable? The APR would be 1050%.
Brighthouse I don't like either . They use a "reasonable" 29.9% APR, but bury what would otherwise be higher credit charges in inflated prices and expensive add-on services. They have though been doing rather well.
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Wonga and religion are totally different. One preys on desperate and gullible people, manipulating their needs and weaknesses for vast financial gain. And the other is payday loan company.
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Actually it's not the Church vs. Wonga - it's versus all payday loan companies, it's the press that singled out Wonga. I think it makes a change to see the established churches going on the offensive.....I think Mr Wellby will cut rather a dash in his new role.
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I guess the church could always set up their own loan company to help those 'prayed' on by the existing loan companies.
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Personally it was hugely brave move by the Church - it's easy to sit around about stuff that's irrelevant to everyday life and to actually go out and do something positive takes some backbone. I think this guy should be a politician. I know at least two good clerics now him, and Rev. Richard Coles (ex- Bronski Beat and Communards).
There is a bit in the Bible about those without sin to cast the first stone - We've actually seen this in action this week. The Archbishop is to be commended, relevant and bang up to date and totally appropriate what he's done.
Oh and whilst I'm at it - these payday loan companies are driving the most vulnerable over the edge, I see their effects every day.
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 26 Jul 13 at 18:04
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The Church has every right to get involved in politics - after all that's what the Bible says Christ did. And since when is the poor's right to eat political.
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>> The Church has every right to get involved in politics -
No they don't, we don't vote the sods in, and we cant get rid of them by voting them out.
And what church anyway? I don't want the Catholic Churches principals anywhere near legislation thank you very much.
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>> Oh and whilst I'm at it - these payday loan companies are driving the most
>> vulnerable over the edge, I see their effects every day.
What would you have the loan companies do? bearing in mind they are not social security
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Lend at a reasonable rate to people have a reasonable chance to make re-payments.
Any religion is involved in politics whichever way you look at it. I mean real world politics - not the type our elected representatives are involved in.
Is the Trussell Trust an appolitical or political organisation ? I guess the thousands of people who take advantage of its services don't even ask.
You're confusing between politics and Politics - two different things
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>> Lend at a reasonable rate to people have a reasonable chance to make re-payments.
They do. I borrow £100 for 30 days and the rate is 37%, which is good for an unsecured loan to a high risk borrower.
If I go overdrawn at the bank* by £100 for 30 days, I get a bank letter or unauthorised overdraft fee at 25 quid and charged 36% interest and i get charged 10 quid for each bounced payment.
So where is the bad boy pay day loan monster now?
*if you have no overdraft in place.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Jul 13 at 18:45
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>> Lend at a reasonable rate to people have a reasonable chance to make re-payments.
>>
>> Any religion is involved in politics whichever way you look at it. I mean real
>> world politics - not the type our elected representatives are involved in.
>>
>> Is the Trussell Trust an appolitical or political organisation ? I guess the thousands of
>> people who take advantage of its services don't even ask.
>>
>> You're confusing between politics and Politics - two different things
What the hell does a food charity have to do with P(p)politics? Charity should be even more ap(P)olitical.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Jul 13 at 18:48
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Borrowing just to spend, rather than invest, is best avoided in my book.
Education is what's needed, starting in primary school.
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It's the Church getting involved in those darn politics again - it providing a safety net to people affected by Politics (see mis-managed benefits cuts for further details). The Trust is part of the Pentecostal Church.
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Our main shopping street is littered with payday lenders and pawnshops. We are also blessed with a branch of Brighthouse, into whose window I sometimes peer.
I am always astonished by the price of the goods they offer: extortionate springs to mind.
They advertise a price promise though: if you can find the same product more cheaply, etc etc.....
Of course all the branded stuff is specially labelled for them with exclusive model numbers, so that it is not possible to find "the same product".
Their furniture is truly horrible too, but they still do business, as do the probably 10 or so loan and pawn shops, all within a very modestly sized shopping area.
We do live in a pretty poor area, once prosperous with coal mines but now sadly bereft of industrial employment, although we do boast a pot-noodle factory!
Houses are still cheap and there are biggish dormitory areas of modern "executive" housing for Sheffield workers as we are only a short commute away.
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We are also blessed with a branch of Brighthouse, into whose window I sometimes peer.
>> I am always astonished by the price of the goods they offer: extortionate springs to
>> mind.
>>
>>
>>
That's no different to what the mail order catalogues - Littlewoods etc - have been doing for umpteen decades. High risk credit has to be reflected in high prices or interest rates. The dilemma is that if you remove those sources of credit people will go to the local Pit Bull owner for a loan, as has already been pointed out in this thread. People do get into trouble with repayments but those are in the small minority of borrowers, they have to be or those firms would be out of business.
In the end we have to accept that all borrowers are adults who know what they're doing and if a few can't add up well they should have paid more attention at school. Society as a whole can't be responsible for every hard luck story that is largely self inflicted.
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>> In the end we have to accept that all borrowers are adults who know what
>> they're doing and if a few can't add up well they should have paid more
>> attention at school. Society as a whole can't be responsible for every hard luck story
>> that is largely self inflicted.
RR you are so right there.
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The FCA will be regulating this from next April. They are a bit clueless at the moment IMO but there are already moves on payday lending and several of them are shutting up shop. The FCA has said it will take a risk based approach (all the rage these days) and so the high APR bits of the industry will get the most attention. Which means Brighthouse at under 30% will probably be well down the list until they cotton on to the transfer between credit charges, service charges, and product margins anyhow.
I'm not sorry about that, some have been operating at the edges of the regs anyway and not in a very transparent way.
The old home collect lenders, descendants of the tally man, did have a role. They have been superseded unfortunately by the payday spivs. Shopacheck in the 80s would lend as little as £20, and call to collect £29 back, £1 at a time. Not wise if you are short already to take credit at that price but it's hard to argue it was unfair to charge £9 for 29 visits, even if the APR works out at 295% (No, I didn't work for them).
I just hope they don't go too far and open up a gap for the baseball bat brigade - there will be plenty of them if the opportunity arises.
Some might scoff, but education is the only way.
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>> Some might scoff, but education is the only way.
'Good afternoon, sir. My name is Gary, but my friends call me Nutter. I have a PhD in moral philosophy from Oxford University, but I am between academic posts at present.
'My present, temporary employers tell me that you are indebted to them for a considerable sum, and that their patience has come to an end. So I am sorry to say that unless you can produce £32,746 and 38 pence, in cash, here and now, my conditions of employment will require me to set about you with this amusing and elegant item of American sports equipment. I see that you are of athletic build and admirably fit, so I must warn you that should you offer me any resistance my colleague Mangy Pete here - currently awaiting employment as an astrophysicist - may be forced to draw the sawn-off shotgun he has concealed down the back of his trousers and shoot you in the leg.'
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I find it sad that we have:
an obesity epidemic.
large scale alcohol problems
large scale drug issues.
and at the same time a large scale indebtedness problem.
The common link appears to be an inability for self control. Statistics for drug use by income group say it all:
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/jul/25/drug-use-seven-trends#
Drug use By Income Group show the poorer are more likely to take drugs - by a significant margin..
But drug use is falling:
"In the 2011 to 2012 survey, an estimated 8.9% of adults had used an illicit drug in the last year; this remains around the lowest level since measurement began in 1996 (the last time there was a fall was between 2008/09 (10.1%) and 2009/10 (8.6%))."
tinyurl.com/nen3akb
Seems like austerity has some interesting effects.
Last edited by: madf on Sat 27 Jul 13 at 16:04
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Unfortunately, as I see it, the whole economic system is based on those who are bright with finance, and those who are dim.
It was explained to me, as a child, that if you give 3 people £10 each and meet them a week later then one will have £10, one will have £5 and one will have £15. That is the simple basis for all finance, and the trick is to be the one with £15!
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Quite right - as I said to my old maths teacher - you'd have been better teaching us basic household economics than bleeding quadratic equations....!
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I admire Welby.
However, I have a problem with the idea of making payday loans cheaper. That surely means that more people will take them on.
Education is what is needed. People don't understand the cost of debt.
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Prevention is better than a cure...!
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If the message was drummed into people from their earliest school days that there is no such thing as "Borrowing" money but you are in fact buying it for £1+ whatever per pound then it would make people think a bit more about the rate of interest they are signing up to.
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APR is meaningless to most people.
Funny thing, in central, eastern and southern Europe where I have had some involvement in consumer borrowing, people typically ask about or look for the "overpayment". In other words, how much more is it costing me to buy on credit than by cash. In UK, the monthly payment tends to be what regular credit users focus on.
Now they are mostly in the EU, they are in theory subject to the same directives, but often the APR even when it is there is in microscopic type. I suppose it has eventually stopped lenders, and car salesmen, quoting flat rates and comparing them with real rates, but that is about all the use APR has been.
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"APR is meaningless to most people."
Actually Wonga agree with you. Whilst clearly showing the APR they believe the Total Cost of repayment is a fairer and better way to compare the cost of loans and the TCR is clearly and prominently shown on their site.
Indeed looking at their site it is difficult to claim that it is misleading in any way.
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The actual principle of a pay day loan is fine. Borrow some money to cover you until pay-day and pay it back - dead simple and probably cheap if used for that purpose. But sadly people don't pay it back, so they get another loan to pay that one, then another to cover that one. That is the pattern that's seen a CABs
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>>If the message was drummed into people from their earliest school days......
I don't think so. In the worst cases that level of sensible thinking is long gone.
Imagine you have nothing, truly nothing, and owe thousands of pounds. Life is miserable from one day to the next.
Suddenly someone offers you £100 at an insane rate of interest and you realise that for a day, an evening or a weekend, life will be pleasant.
And yes it will be worse on Monday when the debt needs repaying and you start getting hunted down, but hey, that's no worse than it is now anyway.
Have you ever been truly down, broke and in debt with nothing to your name?
It is a miserable place to be, and a very tough place to leave.
And if you have no hope about the future, then neither can you worry about it more than you already are.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 27 Jul 13 at 19:07
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>>I misunderstood you
Undoubtedly, but which bit in particular? 8-)
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 27 Jul 13 at 19:11
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>>
>> Imagine you have nothing, truly nothing, and owe thousands of pounds. Life is miserable from
>> one day to the next.
>>
>> Suddenly someone offers you £100 at an insane rate of interest and you realise that
>> for a day, an evening or a weekend, life will be pleasant.
>>
You're quite correct on that assertion, but I very much doubt that the vast majority of people with debt problems started from that base. For every one person who borrows to feed the kids there are many more in serious debt because their houses are full of the latest electronic junk and whatever else must have item is in this week. And doing some of my door to door business in the less prosperous areas it is noticeable how many people who live in what most of us would call squalor manage to have a 42" tv, computer, games console and a smart phone plus a car outside the door that isn't exactly a banger.
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Well if that's the case the debt collection agencies will have something to show for their visit...!
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Its not about where you started from, its about where you have ended up.
I have no doubt you are correct and that the majority of people [but *not* all] who have ended up in a pit are responsible for their own downfall.
But once you're in the pit, whoever is to blame, life is miserable, and escape is somewhere between difficult and impossible.
Not physically impossible of course, but emotionally very much so.
I have no idea how one can help. For every family that would take £10,000, pull themselves out of the mire and be forever grateful, there are 1000 families that will simply continue as they are but with bigger TVs.
However, these loan companies should be regarded morally as no different to someone selling junk food to starving people in Africa.
I am generally not a supporter of legislation to govern company behaviour, but I would introduce a new taxation rate applicable to anyone charging more than x% APR.
Ultimately though the issue is how to stop people getting into this position, not trying to narrow their options once they are already in it.
I've been poor, I've been rich, and I've been middlin' ok. If you've not been there, you don't know how awful truly poor is. And someone telling you its your own fault doesn't make it better.
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>but I would introduce a new taxation rate applicable to anyone charging more than x% APR.
And how is that going to work?
The interest rate would drop below your x% APR but the loan would be conditional on insurance/setup-fees/whatever.
Unworkable.
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Well, I could probably find a way if I had the power to legislate.
But thank you for your contribution. No, really, thank you.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 27 Jul 13 at 20:17
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>Well, I could probably find a way if I had the power to legislate.
No you couldn't.
The lenders would simply move their charges to a "Service" and you'd end up trying to regulate fees charged by professions like solicitors, accountants, consultants, advisors and self employed builders and plumbers.
>But thank you for your contribution. No, really, thank you.
Yeah, you too.
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There used to be money-lending cooperatives... were they called mutual societies, something like that? I have a feeling the Co-op Bank started like that. They could lend, shortish term, to respectable but skint individuals, at a fairly high rate of interest to cover inevitable bad or delayed debt, but nothing like these usurious rates being mentioned.
The Church of England would certainly have enough capital to start a big one of those. But it would have to get on top of the commissioners first, and that might not be all that easy.
Of course the Catholic Church, the Church of Rome, also commands huge capital and owns a bank with a wicked reputation. It's sure to have some well-tasty investments stashed away in chains of investment companies.
I like the Archbishop too, just as I did the last one. Saw the clips of the present Pope doing his thing in a Brazilian favela the other night. Quite a decent performance, baby-kissing, laying on of hands and so on. I suppose you could say these cats earn their wages so to speak.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 27 Jul 13 at 20:41
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>> There used to be money-lending cooperatives... were they called mutual societies, something like that? I have a feeling the Co-op Bank started like that. They could lend, shortish term, to respectable but skint individuals, at a fairly high rate of interest to cover inevitable bad
>> or delayed debt, but nothing like these usurious rates being mentioned.
>>
>> The Church of England would certainly have enough capital to start a big one of
>> those.
>>
But could it take the inevitable front page publicity when it is forced to bankrupt a bad debtor?
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No point in Bankrupting the poor though RR as they are mostly trapped in the pit that Mark described.
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"there used to be money-lending cooperatives... were they called mutual societies, something like that?"
I believe they were called mutuality clubs. The London Co-operative Society use to run one. Basically you paid so much a month in to the club and you were allowed credit. Money was collected weekly door to door The loan was granted in cheques of vouchers of fixed denominations which you could only spend at the Co-op stores. Change was given in oddly shaped tokens.
My mum used to use one in the fifties and sixties to pay for things like clothing. I can still remember the collector coming round and the admonition to be quite and not to answer the door!
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 27 Jul 13 at 22:03
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In response to Mark at 19.52 Saturday.
Excellent post Sir.
MD
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>> Prevention is better than a cure...!
>>
Con-dom
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I've had no time this weekend to post or read this thread and nothing has changed this morning!
However I couldn't stop reading this one and I'd just like to quickly say that had I have had more time I would have posted exactly what Mark has posted in every one of his replies.
Respect Mark, from one who has been there.
Pat
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Getting adverts for Wonga and debt "solutions" on here now !
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I'm still waiting for me G strings.
:}
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funny that - we ned to mention it more often perhaps. g strings that is.
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Cue a load of adverts for violins.
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>> waiting for me G strings.
Isn't the winsome number in that Aston Martin ad of yours wearing a g string Perro? I think you should post it here and see what people think, when they have finished running on the spot and howling at the moon for an hour or two.
:o}
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Haha! - I had to think about that for a moment Sire (short term memory loss?)
I'll see what I can do ;)
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Not suitable for children, folk of a nervous disposition, those who have lived a sheltered life, or Pat:
img442.imageshack.us/img442/9388/azwr.jpg
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>>My heart!
>>My Wife!
>>My dishcloth!
My ass!
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but can she cook....................
who cares eh??
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Jeez....nearly coughed up me Bengers !
Ted
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Church vs Wonga - Zero
