"Ford, one of the UK’s leading foreign investors, has called for the country to remain in the European Union, warning that it would reassess all its plans if Britain left.
Steve Odell, chief executive of the car manufacturer’s operations in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, told The Telegraph the UK would be “cutting its nose off to spite its face” by exiting the EU. He claimed it would be calamitous for British jobs and business."
tinyurl.com/nzy2vhg
Some of the comments are made by people who clearly have zero understanding of the facts that most cars sold in the UK are imported from the EU..
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See also Toyota, Honda...............JLR probably, many non-car companies also.........
Take aim at foot, fire. Glug, glug goes UK.
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>> See also Toyota, Honda...............JLR probably, many non-car companies also.........
Airbus for example.
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= = > "This guy is having a laugh, how many jobs has Ford got rid off in UK and he has the nerve to lecture us on how we feel about the carp EU!!" < = =
What ^^he^^ said.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 02:15
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If being in the EU is so important to Ford why did they move Transit production OUT of the EU to Turkey? Cant be that important to them, actions speak louder etc.
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>> = = > "This guy is having a laugh, how many jobs has Ford got
>> rid off in UK and he has the nerve to lecture us on how we
>> feel about the carp EU!!" < = =
Most manufacturing businesses have shed jobs over the years. Britain has shared that loss disproportionately because it's far more difficult to make French or German workers redundant. The price of our libertarian political consensus that Labour shamefully play along with.
If we leave the EU then there will be further losses as the raison d'etre for investing here goes down the plughole.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 02:16
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>> Most manufacturing businesses have shed jobs over the years. Britain has shared that loss disproportionately
>> because it's far more difficult to make French or German workers redundant. The price of
>> our libertarian political consensus that Labour shamefully play along with.
>>
>> If we leave the EU then there will be further losses as the raison d'etre
>> for investing here goes down the plughole.
>>
+1
I doubt that many people realise that London is the centre for Euro trading.. Also with many other financial instruments it is THE European Centre for such trading. No doubt they will all move to Frankfurt or Switzerland and we will see a Financial transaction Tax. Bang goes the Financial Services Sector which provides about 20% of UK tax revenues.
Strangely enough, UKIP do not mention it despite Nigel being an ex trader...
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>>No doubt they will all move to Frankfurt or Switzerland <<
So you are saying that if we leave the EU they will all move to another non-EU country. I understand the logic of Frankfurt in that argument but why Switzerland given that they are not in the EU which by your logic should mean they are less attractive, not more attractive.
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>> Britain has shared that loss disproportionately
That's not in line with my understanding. Perhaps you could point me at a source?
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>> That's not in line with my understanding. Perhaps you could point me at a source?
Difficult to find figures either way. I suspect that given differing populations, basis of expression they largely say what the author wants them to say. That's without getting into complexity of net offs etc.
Anytime there is a high profile closure in UK for example The Ford Transit plant at Eastleigh, Peugeot at Coventry and the more recent threat to GM Ellesmere Port it's treated as anecdotal evidence of such a tendency.
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"Britain has shared that loss disproportionately "
I worked in the chemical industry and, when downsizing was necessary, it was easier to get rid of Brits than French or Germans. But I would have thought that a good reason to establish a new plant in Britain - it affords greater flexibility of labour.
Steve Odell's thoughts seem somewhat muddled; I can't follow his argument - in fact, I'm not sure sure he's got one.
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Multinationals have an inherently footloose character and host countries should recognise this.
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Crude effort to influence policy by Ford. UK clearly matters to them or they wouldn't be clumping around with threats and posturing like this.
They will of course take whatever decisions they think will work for them. But I wouldn't take this at face value.
Ford dictating whether UK leaves the EU would be the tail wagging the dog. An independent UK would have much more policy freedom to create attractive conditions for business.
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>> Crude effort to influence policy by Ford. UK clearly matters to them or they wouldn't
>> be clumping around with threats and posturing like this.
>>
>> They will of course take whatever decisions they think will work for them. But I
>> wouldn't take this at face value.
>>
>> Ford dictating whether UK leaves the EU would be the tail wagging the dog. An
>> independent UK would have much more policy freedom to create attractive conditions for business.
Not exporting to Europe. As for the tail wagging the dog, you don't know which end the head is Its not HM gov. National governments (within or without Europe) have lost control of global business. But the bigger the bit of the globe you represent, the more leverage you have.
UK out of Europe? Its nowt but a puddle of dog pee you step over.
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Thought you might say that. I just don't subscribe to it.
You want to join the Euro too? Do you actually want to be part of a USE? Serious question, not Ukip rhetoric.
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>> Thought you might say that. I just don't subscribe to it.
>>
>> You want to join the Euro too? Do you actually want to be part of
>> a USE? Serious question, not Ukip rhetoric.
The Euro isn't working and Gordon Brown did right to keep us out. I'm comfortable with a USE though.
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>> The Euro isn't working and Gordon Brown did right to keep us out. I'm comfortable
>> with a USE though.
Good. USE is where it's going. Long term that means the Euro. You can't have one without the other. Has anybody thought this through? Of course they have, but they know if they spell it out nobody will buy it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 16 Jan 14 at 10:10
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>> Ford dictating whether UK leaves the EU would be the tail wagging the dog. An
>> independent UK would have much more policy freedom to create attractive conditions for business.
It's not a question of Ford or any other multinational dictating what UK does. Politicians are seriously putting forward the proposition that we leave. If we were to do so that will have consequences in terms of those companies decisions to invest or retain manufacturing or R&D in the UK. It would be scandalous if business did not explain those consequences.
There's no certainty an independent UK could successfully create the conditions you suggest. It would depend on the terms of trade UK could negotiate with the EU.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 16 Jan 14 at 09:35
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It would be scandalous to believe everything they say too.
They will manage their businesses in whatever environment prevails. They will want to make sure that any change is as good for them as possible. Hence the not very subtle chest puffing.
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>> It would be scandalous to believe everything they say too.
>>
>> They will manage their businesses in whatever environment prevails. They will want to make sure
>> that any change is as good for them as possible. Hence the not very subtle
>> chest puffing.
Why are they chest puffing. If it makes no difference why are they saying anything? If the UK would be better out of Europe, for them and us, why are they not saying "leave"?
As for the Euro, we don't need it, they don't need us in, and its NOT an integral part or basic requirement of the United states of Europe. In fact the United States of Europe is not a basic requirement of the EU.
Seem to recall all the moaners on here saying the Euro would collapse, it would all break up n disarray, it would never survive the economic crisis, the Spain issue, the Irish problem, Cyprus banning collapse would bring it all tumbling down.
Well it aint has it. And it don't look like it will does it. Its working well as a serious global economic and trade body, and is needed to meet the rise of the other trading blocks.
MY position is thus laid out above. We will be much worse off, with little economic or trade influence out of Europe. I am firmly convinced of that, You can say otherwise, but you won't convince me.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 16 Jan 14 at 10:13
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>> Seem to recall all the moaners on here saying the Euro would collapse, it would
>> all break up n disarray, it would never survive the economic crisis, the Spain issue,
>> the Irish problem, Cyprus banning collapse would bring it all tumbling down.
>>
>>
>> Well it aint has it.
I might have said that. Sometimes I trip myself up. More likely, I said EITHER the Euro has to be abandoned, OR the Eurozone members have to submit to rule from Europe - part of the USE process
>>And it don't look like it will does it.
No, it doesn't, though nothing much has changed.
>>Its working well as a serious global economic and trade body, and is needed to meet
>> the rise of the other trading blocks.
Not sure how to evaluate that, but it seems so. I could work up some enthusiasm for a EU-USA trading bloc, hard to see how UK would benefit from being excluded from that.
I'd like to see somebody making a proper case for being in Europe. One that acknowledges the inevitable surrender of autonomy and explains why it is a good idea, instead of pretending we can keep the bun and the halfpenny.
>> MY position is thus laid out above. We will be much worse off, with little
>> economic or trade influence out of Europe. I am firmly convinced of that, You can
>> say otherwise, but you won't convince me.
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>> It's not a question of Ford or any other multinational dictating what UK does.
>> There's no certainty an independent UK could successfully create the conditions you suggest. It would
>> depend on the terms of trade UK could negotiate with the EU.
True. But there's no certainty about anything. Do you think Ford will promise to stay in Uk if we don't leave the EU?
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>> Crude effort to influence policy by Ford.
>> An
>> independent UK would have much more policy freedom to create attractive conditions for business.
Crude effort to make people think, by repetition of a lie, that we are not independent. Do pack it in.
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You think I'm a liar, I think you're naive. Best leave it there;)
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>> Best leave it there;)
>>
Always the position of someone on thin ice.
When around 9% of our law is thought to come from the EU (Parliamentary figures, you can find them online), our budget is our own, our foreign policy is our own, our military is our own, we have our own Monarchy, then I'd say we're far more independent than not.
Fibs like the one you're peddaling don't stand up to scrutiny.
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And the Americans (well, one formerly prominent in defence) are saying the UK will not be able to stand with the US due to cuts. An independent, isolationist, wilfully deflating state, will get no succour from the big business that calls itself the USA.
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>> >> Best leave it there;)
>> >>
>>
>> Always the position of someone on thin ice.
The kind of comment made by somebody who is on thin ice.
>>
>> When around 9% of our law is thought to come from the EU (Parliamentary figures,
>> you can find them online), our budget is our own, our foreign policy is our
>> own, our military is our own, we have our own Monarchy, then I'd say we're
>> far more independent than not.
>>
>> Fibs like the one you're peddaling don't stand up to scrutiny.
Peddling? I'm peddling nothing, you're the one selling something. All I said was that Ford's statement shouldn't be taken at face value. They don't know whether they would leave UK because they don't know what the business environment will be like, and that applies whether we are in or out. Either way, there are costs and risks associated with relocating manufacturing. They just want a stable environment to operate in, and leaving the EU will be high on their risk register - they might prefer it doesn't happen, but if it does they have already socialised the idea that they should be well looked after.
Of course they are right about risks around tariffs etc, and the product would have to be compliant with applicable laws.
How are you calculating the 9%? A meaningless statistic if ever there was one. We can independently pass as many laws as we like provided they comply with relevant directives, so who's being economical with the truth, you or me?
Zero is quite wrong about the USE agenda in my opinion. Perforce, you already have it with the Eurozone, or as good as - it's where they end up unless they dismantle the Euro.
When that happens (which is a process, rather than an event) where does it leave a member with its own currency? I'm not sure anybody has worked it out, except those intelligent enough among the Europhiles who don't care because a USE is what they want. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you know what's happening.
I have neither the skill nor the data to predict whether UK would be better off socially, economically and culturally inside or outside the EU. Nor, I think, does anybody else. You can't spreadsheet your way to an answer for this sort of question.
Like all plebiscites, emotion, ideals and perceived self interest will govern. But in a way that doesn't matter. There isn't necessarily a right and a wrong decision, only good or bad ways of managing the consequences.
I hope our politicians are up to it. Unfortunately I think that's where the problem is, and I don't think UKIP will provide the answer either.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 16 Jan 14 at 11:48
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"I hope our politicians are up to it. Unfortunately I think that's where the problem is, and I don't think UKIP will provide the answer either."
I read political blogs. And speak to friends and neighbours.
There is no doubt in my mind that the cumulative effect of the last 15 years- Iraq war lies, police lies, political expenses etc etc etc - have significantly eroded many people's trust in the UK political and legal "establishment". And this has not been helped by the arrogance of some politicians who forget they should be our servants and instead think they are our masters. (see Mandelson and other Lords on our unsuitability to judge EU membership)
Add in a dose of mild austerity, world instability, the side effects of Human Rights and you have a mix which quite understandably erodes trust and engenders cynicism. And it is not helped by politicians making electoral promises they then cynically don't keep - as opposed to being unable to keep through events.
(See electoral promises on EU referendum)
UKIP are the response to some of that. (but in my view too many internal contradictions to work.. ever)
Personally I can't see it being resolved without far reaching changes. The way our Constitution works in practice has not evolved from a society based on horses and paper and ink. Why even the way we vote - largely a minor issue -is largely unchanged from 300 years ago. (example of no change.. not a solution) Hidebound . Static . Ossified. Designed to ensure things work at the pace of 2 centuries ago.
A political system designed to support a staus quo and not involve the citizens except every 5 years is an anachronism in today's world.
Last edited by: madf on Thu 16 Jan 14 at 12:12
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>> Peddling? I'm peddling nothing, you're the one selling something. All I said was that Ford's
>> statement shouldn't be taken at face value.
Manatee: "An independent UK would have much more policy freedom to create attractive conditions for business."
Thereby implying we're not independent. That's an untruth and I'm seeking to address it. A pernicious untruth.
>>
>> How are you calculating the 9%?
This bloke did it for me:
www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/06/what-percentage-of-laws-come-from-the-eu/
Using this, probably:
tinyurl.com/p88379g
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>> Manatee: "An independent UK would have much more policy freedom to create attractive conditions for
>> business."
>> Thereby implying we're not independent. That's an untruth and I'm seeking to address it.
>> A pernicious untruth.
Well that's progress I suppose. I'm not actually lying, I'm just implying a lie.
But I don't think I am.
It's blindingly obvious to me that the UK is not fully independent, you are arguing that black is white.
You can't have it both ways. If we are in, then the EU cannot set tariffs against us. Neither can we set our own terms of trade vs. the EU or anywhere else. Therefore we are not independent. That's before you consider all the directives that govern almost everything we do, from the way insurance is sold to immigration policy.
That may not be bad. We might even like it. And leaving the EU would not confer the ability to ignore all that stuff either. But it's there.
Look for the mote in your own eye, please.
>> >> How are you calculating the 9%?
>>
>> This bloke did it for me:
By numbers, rather than impact then. And they can't even agree on the numbers.
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>> It's blindingly obvious to me that the UK is not fully independent, you are arguing that black is white.
Ah, I geddit. Being bound by international law and treaty obligations makes us not independent, does it?
If that is the definition there isn't a single independent country in the civilized world.
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Be as sarky as you like. You're the one who wanted to turn a discussion into an argument, which I would normally ignore but you accused me first of "peddaling (sic) lies", then of backing off because I was "on thin ice".
I should have known better.
To your point - there is a difference between signing up to treaties, and handing over your future primary legislative powers (fine, as long as you don't delude yourself that you remain independent).
Can you see the difference, or don't you want to?
Over and out.
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Hey, Manatee, I didn't accuse you of anything. You are thinking of someone else.
Nevertheless I don't think EC (or NATO or UN Security Council or any other) membership stops this or any other country from being independent. Or as independent as the others anyway.
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Oopsie. Poor old AC.
Bottom line is, if you're saying we're not independent, that's an untruth. Black and white, as you say.
And that's over and out.
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Ford - Ford may leave UK if UK leaves EU - Alanovich
