New kitchen planned.
Existing flooring was inherited from previous owner. It's brick. Looks okay but is rough surfaced, attracts dirt, has got grubby. Quite a big area - local cleaning service quoted £700 to clean it/reseal it properly.
Options for new kitchen are:
Have that cleaning done
Put down vinyl of some sort
Put down laminate of some sort
Put down Something Else, but I'm not paying out thousands for limestone or anything.
What have you got on your kitchen floor and are you happy with it? Any idea how much it was?
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Decent ceramic tiles, preferably porcelain. Easy to clean, look good and will last forever.
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Ours is builders vinyl tiles and now looking worn and scuffed.
Replacing it with laminate is my choice but need to decide whether it's a standalonee task or part of wider 'new kitchen'.
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Another vote for tiles in the kitchen, they make life a lot easier. The downside is that any dropped crockery won't stand a chance, the silver lining being that I'm no longer trusted with Sunday's washing up which is when Mrs O'R likes to get the decent gear out.
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"The downside is that any dropped crockery won't stand a chance"
Never understood that argument. A few millimetres of vinyl or laminate won't provide adequate crash protection for your Crown Derby tea set.
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We have those terracotta quarry tiles. They aren't hard to clean, although the seal slopped on means that they never look quite spotless or pristine.
And of course pottery and china break when dropped on them.
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>>> A few millimetres of vinyl or laminate won't provide adequate crash protection for your Crown Derby tea set.
But weirdly it does... either vinyl cushionfloor or laminate are far kinder to dropped items than ceramic tiles which are totally unforgiving.
I like waterproof grade laminate strip with its huge choice of surface finishes.
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Currently having this argument myself our kitchen is almost done, most the units are in and the plumbing is now all working etc thanks to advice on here. The problem is the floor, my mother wants the cushion floor in then she wants the appliances moved into position so it will look neat, I just don't know how this can be done without ripping the floor.
The floor is a bit uneven so tiles or laminate is not really an option.
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We've had cushionfloor quite a few times in the past and I've put card under the feet of appliances before pushing into place so they slide then just ease the weight off to pull out the visible bits at the front. Just use a bit of care and it will be fine.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 25 Feb 14 at 12:58
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You might get a better result having laid 18mm marine ply, whatever the covering.
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>>Existing flooring was inherited from previous owner. It's brick
I'd think it would depend on how level the current floor is.
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>> I'd think it would depend on how level the current floor is.
It's pretty level - as in you won't catch anything on it as you waltz - but it's going to need some sort of under levelling platform I guess.
As to tiles, thanks for that. For some reason the idea of actual tiles hadn't even crossed my mind - how strange. It's an option to add into the mix, certainly, although I'm seeing online prices of £35 to £135 a square metre without trying, and I reckon the whole area is about 35 square metres. And that starts to add up to uncomfortable territory quite quickly.
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I last fitted a soft vinyl flooring in my kitchen. SWMBO wanted the dishwasher and washing swapped round. Managed to tear the floor when moving them. It feels nice underfoot, but not really suitable if you're going to move appliances.
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>> I last fitted a soft vinyl flooring in my kitchen. SWMBO wanted the dishwasher and
>> washing swapped round. Managed to tear the floor when moving them. It feels nice underfoot,
>> but not really suitable if you're going to move appliances.
>>
We have heavy duty vinyl in our kitchen and utility room, it is warm under foot, waterproof, and a good insulator. A smear of neat washing up liquid on the floor allows easy shifting of the big kitchen machinery without damaging the vinyl. It also makes the floor ready for the domestic staff to clean the floor. :-)
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Replaced vinyl with engineered oak 2 years ago. Still looks good.
PS Engineered oak to me is only 'thick laminate' but attracts a large cost penalty! Retailers hate you when you call it thick laminate.
Tiles are totally unforgiving for a falling glass (or ceramic) object - vinyl you get away with some of the time, particularly if you are quick with your feet to break the fall!
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I have tiles, laid myself, cost me 10 quid a square metre.
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If you go for tiles make sure you get a non-slip variety. If you pay to put down the flooring remember its the same price to lay cheap tiles as it is better quality products. If you are ripping out the kitchen get the tiles laid wall to wall.
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>>> Engineered oak to me is only 'thick laminate' but attracts a large cost penalty! Retailers hate you when you call it thick laminate.
Haha yes... I'd always wondered how long it took them to come up with that name for plywood!
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Laminate and engineered wood flooring are not the same at all. Laminate is an artificial
product. It may look like wood but it isn't. The design is printed and will eventually wear off after heavy use. Engineered wood is a thick veneer on a stable plywood backing. It can be treated as real wood and even sanded down to restore the surface if badly worn or scratched.
You get what you pay for.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 6 Mar 14 at 10:03
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>> Laminate and engineered wood flooring are not the same at all. Laminate is an artificial
>>
>> product. It may look like wood but it isn't. The design is printed and will
>> eventually wear off after heavy use.
How long to wear off though? Mine's been down for over 15yrs and shows no sign at all of design wearing through.
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Depends on the quality and usage. Nothing against good quality laminated if laid properly. Just making the point that it' s not the same thing ans engineered wood.
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Depends if the value of your property/saleability are of any concern to you? I think everyone knows the importance of kitchens and bathrooms when selling a home! So, I'd be thinking along the lines of what's right for the property - for example, as we live in the Cotswolds we should have a limestone floor, but they're not very practical so we actually have large porcelain tiles that look very much like limestone.
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Advantage of laminate is that it can mimic appearance of a variety of surfaces. I might however be concerned about effect of moisture in a kitchen, particularly around washer and dryer.
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If it's an old place with real brick and you don't want to keep the heritage .. bla, bla....then dig them up and lay down a bit of insulation before the covering of choice.
You won't regret it.
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The problem with ceramic tiles is:
1. They are cold underfoot, even on an insulated floor unless you install under-floor heating.
2. The grout WILL get dirty and is a pita to clean, even using acid cleaners.
3. Dropped china/crockery is dead.
I recommend Karndean, which is a cheaper version of Amtico, a thick vinyl with a good range of designs. More expensive than cushion vinyl, but far nicer, much tougher and longer lasting. Prices from £30-odd/m2 I believe, so as pricey as a decent laminate/engineered. Very little maintenance, hard-wearing and warm underfoot. We have some in our conservatory too, and in 15 years it has only faded very slightly in the sun.
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I ran some of this thread past Mrs C last night, who of course is the ultimate arbiter.
Tiles, as suggested, seemed not to find much favour as being cold and not that lovely to walk on. Which is basically what we have now. Ripping the floor up and insulating it was rejected out of hand as bound to be too expensive, whatever the advantages in the long run.
Turns out she's fallen out of love with the brick floor entirely so that will have to be covered over whatever we do.
Laminate flooring, even in engineered oak didn't make her eyes light up much.
So looks like some vinyl variant or other, perhaps Karndean or equivalent, is going to be it.
Anyway, kitchen "designer" out on Saturday so we'll make a start.
(Incidentally upthread I guessed at the size to cover - I measured last night and it's 34.1 square metres.)
Thanks for input, all.
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I've never got laminate, I think it's the modern version of stone cladding. In a few years time it'll be the feature which makes an Estate Agent's heart sink.
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Yes, There's laminate and laminate.
The cheapo stuff you see so many people using to make their homes fashionable is extremely poor quality.
It creaks and moves when you walk on it, and sustains scratches and scuffs very quickly, which then admits moisture, and water damage.
Unfortunately, the only way to differentiate is on price, and how high do you have to go to be sure.
Probably you are getting up to the price of the properly "engineered" hardwood flooring, before you are really safe.
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>>>I've never got laminate...
My view until we put it into the hall and dining room of the last (1920s) house when there had been carpet previously. We chose an expensive heavy wear type in oak effect with the edge grooves that replicate real floorboards which is exactly what it looked like. So easy to keep clean, particularly with major spills. The rest of the house apart from kitchen was carpet which we prefer in living/bedrooms for the way it damps sound.
On buying this current house it had exactly the laminate that put me off it years ago. Fairly cheap 10yr old birch colour in hall, kitchen, living, room, dining room, both bathrooms and two bedrooms. The whole house looked so bland for it and was very noisy. Gradually swapping for better looking and more suitable flooring as we get round to it but we will replace with more laminate in hall and dining room for certain.
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We had Pergo laminate laid in hall and lounge/diner when we moved in 15 years ago. Had to be re-laid after about 6 months as contractor doing original job had made a mess of it.
Picked up a few 'dings' where things have been dropped on it but has worn much better than 15yo carpet upstairs. A patina fine scuffs show up in bright sunlight but an application of some sort of polish (is there a modern equivalent of 'Dual'?) would improve them.
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>>I've never got laminate, I think it's the modern version of stone cladding. In a few years time it'll be the feature which makes an Estate Agent's heart sink.
It goes well with Artex.
:-(
Last edited by: Dog on Wed 26 Feb 14 at 13:25
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Me neither Roger but then again, neither do I 'get' decking in a garden.
Pat
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>> Me neither Roger but then again, neither do I 'get' decking in a garden.
>>
>> Pat
>>
I hate that stuff. Looks a mess and lethal to walk on when wet, a few houses I visit have decking leading to the front door.
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>> Looks a mess and lethal to walk on when wet,
Yes and yes. The architect specified it for this house and no one vetoed it. I've fallen over twice when wearing the wrong shoes when it's wet... the ones I have now don't seem so bad though.
One advantage is that you can drop cigarette ends through the gaps to get rid of them. Disadvantage is that it will all rot eventually.
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>> (Incidentally upthread I guessed at the size to cover - I measured last night and
>> it's 34.1 square metres.)
That is a BIG kitchen #envious!
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>> That is a BIG kitchen #envious!
Don't get it wrong - it's a bit hard to explain, but the area to be refloored is actually a sort of funny little bit in which we keep the piano and my electronic organ, which we are knocking through to be part of the kitchen, but the brick floor extends then into the utility room and the downstairs loo, and it's going to look odd if we don't change all of it, even if it's not the same pattern throughout.
I suppose the kitchen true is nearer 20 square metres. Thing is, neither of us have the slightest interest in kitchens at all, and have never got the "it's the heart of the home" idea.
Mrs C has never cooked anything in her life other than a packet into the oven, and I'm not much more advanced, so we spend ten minutes in there making toast or shoving something in the microwave and that's it. But it's looking shabby and letting the rest of the house down so we feel we need to do something with it.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 26 Feb 14 at 14:42
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I'd still rip it up and lay insulation first - but there's no telling some people.
When working out the area I presume you have only allowed to extend the covering for 30mm or so under the kick boards of the units. A contractor won't bother, nor does he need to go all the way under the units. Any rough floor covering cuts will be hidden by these plinths making it a quick job. Depending on any change in floor level these plinths may need to be trimmed in height too.
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Yes, that's part of the equation. Ta though.
Insulation - one of those "this project could run away very easily " categories I think.
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OK, up to you. Also, maybe give some thought to any wiring for extra electrical sockets, water pipes or even a gas pipe you might want to run across the room - it's now or never !
If you aren't bothered by insulation but have a cold area close to say a draughty back door you could install a plinth fan heater.
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>> I'd still rip it up and lay insulation first - but there's no telling some
>> people.
His floor isn't insulated at the moment. Not insulating it this time will be no step backward from what he already has. Granted, insulation may be an improvement. But it's more costly, and if he's happy with it uninsulated at the moment, he won't miss what he never had. So the nagging isn't really necessary. This isn't a vanity project for a lifestyle magazine. It's a tidy up of a kitchen used by unenthusiastic cooks.
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Disagree big time.
I couldn't care less what it looks like and have offered no advice or opinion in this regard.
Keeping your feet cosy and warm has nothing whatsoever to do with " .... a vanity project for a lifestyle magazine."
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate on Wed 26 Feb 14 at 15:46
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Of course I'm exaggerating. Just making the point that you don't miss what you never had, and it sounds like CC is budget oriented.
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>> Of course I'm exaggerating. Just making the point that you don't miss what you never
>> had, and it sounds like CC is budget oriented. cheap skate.
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>> >> Of course I'm exaggerating. Just making the point that you don't miss what you
>> never
>> >> had, and it sounds like CC is budget oriented. cheap skate.
>>
Under resourced more like.
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>> >> >> Of course I'm exaggerating. Just making the point that you don't miss what
>> you
>> >> never
>> >> >> had, and it sounds like CC is budget oriented. cheap skate.
>> >>
>>
>> Under resourced more like.
You speak fluent PM you know.
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>>Keeping your feet cosy and warm has nothing whatsoever to do with " .... a vanity project for a lifestyle magazine."
<<
Our slate tiles in the kitchen are excellent for getting rid of cramp in the toes:)
Pat
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Serious question for DE... how would you propose to insulate a brick floor?
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"....how would you propose to insulate a brick floor?"
If you had an empty room with no headroom and no doorway issues you'd simply put it on top, but in this case I was suggesting that if the brick floor was not going to be preserved I'd dig it up and dispose of it. A brick floor is likely to be laid on good old earth or maybe a sand bed and it probably won't have a damp proof membrane. But, I'm guessing here as I don't know how old it all is. Lifting a brick or two in a discrete place would tell us a lot more.
A brick could be around 50mm to 75 mm thick and if laid on earth it would be easy-ish to dig down a bit more and create a timber floating floor. Lay a damp-proof membrane, 50mm or whatever thickness of dense polystyrene ( e.g.Kingspan Thermafloor TF70 comes in a range of thicknesses) and covered with 18mm chipboard topped off with vinyl tiles / cushionfloor.
So, yes, a lot of work and money for a relatively small payback.
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Ahh OK thanks. Just wondered if you meant the type of thin green insulation that can fit under laminate.
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DE, you are spot on, and I agree with everything you say.
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I know you're all avidly following this saga. The latest is:
Kitchen Designer comes out, I ask her what she thinks about the brick floor. "Oh, it's lovely", she says, "you'd be mad to do anything to cover it, trust me, I was an estate agent. Soften it up by putting down some nice runners or a nice natural thing, like a coir mat".
Vinyl floor man comes out to measure. I ask him what he thinks about the brick floor. "Oh, it's horrid", he says, "I see a lot of floors, and this one is nasty. Put something down on it".
However. And here's the rub. He says that we can put down a screed (about £1500 complete with vinyl, but floor lost forever) or a floating ply base (about £2000 complete with vinyl, but could be removed and brick floor still more or less intact) - but in either case he wasn't happy it was going to be that good as the floor is uneven enough to cause problems in places. Worse, as NONE of the walls or corners are true - there's not a right angle in the place - anything with a tiled effect is going to look very odd with lines in all directions. And Mrs C wanted a tiled effect.
So the floor fitter, whilst he'll do anything we want of course, did want to make it clear in his opinion it wasn't going to look much cop.
Why are these things so complicated. Decisions decisions.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 5 Mar 14 at 07:56
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You could suggest terrazzo. She didn't say what size tiles, did she?
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Thanks for that - I'd never heard of it. Having found some images, I'll wave that under her nose tonight. Ta.
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........trust me, I was an estate agent.......
so that rules out option 1 then :)
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>>Vinyl floor man comes out to measure. I ask him what he thinks about the
>> brick floor. "Oh, it's horrid", he says, "I see a lot of floors, and this
>> one is nasty. Put something down on it".
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?
Did he say "put something vinyl down on it"?
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FWIW, I think the ex-estate agent designer is right - future buyers like 'features' - whereas the vinyl man has a vested interest in selling you a replacment.
If the 'knocked in' bit is being used more as a music room than part of the kitchen, is it possible to floor it in (say) laminate with a neat join to the existing brick floored kitchen part without it looking wonky?
Its not uncommon to see kitchen/diners or kitchen-diner/living room layouts with different flooring for the cooking and living parts, and it can look well if its done properly. Personally, I'd keep the brick in preference to paying good money to replace it vinyl. But if I was spending any money on floors, I'd consider getting the brick cleaned up and properly sealed to make it easier to care for.
Bear in mind, too, that vinyl will wear out over time and laminate will suffer if it gets wet - a leaky dishwasher did significant damage to the laminate floor in MiL's.
Edit: I've just re-read your post. You'll have all the musical instruments in the 'new' off-square shaped bit, and the functional cooking/eating/utility stuff in the 'old' brick-floored bit, right? Then I'd put down a natural carpet - probably something like sisal - so as not to show up the off-square edges and to fit with the nautral appearance of the existing brick. That should be easier and cheaper to do than any of the alternatives, and still look good.
Last edited by: Gromit on Wed 5 Mar 14 at 09:25
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As a surveyor myself, the kitchen designer could have a point about retaining the brick floor. It all depends on how good or bad it is, and the context of the house. Screed (prior to another covering) would indeed bury it forever.
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Perhaps I'll take a photo.
As to the vinyl man doing a Mandy Rice-Davies, true, and expected, but as I said, qualified by "not sure it's going to look all that brilliant", and not a hard sell at all. We've used them before and they're a good local firm. They do other floor coverings too, but he didn't instantly suggest anything else would be better.
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As I said before 'Depends if the value of your property/saleability are of any concern to you?' If it is you need to take the advice of the kitchen designer, if it's not then it sounds like vinyl with some sort of random pattern.
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Marble is a poor choice as it is very porous and will absorb stains from spills and is also relatively soft. I think ceramic tile is a far superior choice both from a stain resistance and hardness standpoint.
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Last edited by: Webmaster on Fri 7 Mar 14 at 14:16
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Kitchen floor opinions please - CGNorwich
