EU Rules from 1st September
Buy your now cleaner soon before the stock of 1800+watt hoovers are exhausted!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28878432
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The 1600W rule won't affect us, but "From 1 September 2017, all vacuum cleaners will have to be less than 900w" - might lead to some interesting new designs?
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I decided to sell my Hoover... well it was just collecting dust
(one of Tim Vine's one-liners)
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 21 Aug 14 at 14:03
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>>
>> (one of Tim Vine's one-liners)
>>
One-liner of the year at Edinburgh Festival Fringe.
Robin William's joke - God gave me a pen1s and a brain - but not enough blood for them to work at the same time!
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Does it apply to those canister industrial-style cleaners that will suck up water and workshop waste?
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>> Does it apply to those canister industrial-style cleaners that will suck up water and workshop
>> waste?
If you mean those 'Henry' ones, they're 'only' 1200W apparently -
www.numatic.co.uk/products4.aspx?id=1
ie. ok until 2017.
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I wonder if it will work as well as the energy saving light bulb fiasco ?
I still buy heavy duty 40W and 60W candle bulbs :-)
Last edited by: henry k on Thu 21 Aug 14 at 15:10
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>>I still buy heavy duty 40W and 60W candle bulbs >>
You can still buy industrial standard 100 and 150w bulbs...:-)
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I wonder if the new restrictions on power are to prevent further incidents of odd - very odd - chaps injuring themselves after forming an, er, emotional attachment to their vacuum cleaners? Seen one or two such yarns over the years. (schoolboy snigger)
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I think this falls firmly into the "Haven't they got better things to do?" category, particularly when considered along with this from November last year:_
"British taxpayers will have to pay more than £800 million after the European Union spent nearly £6 billion in ‘error’ last year.
Auditors yesterday refused to sign off the EU accounts for the 19th year in succession as they revealed that the spending errors are 23 per cent up on the year before.
While countries across Europe were forced to rein in spending, EU bosses paid out £5.7billion to ineligible projects, of which Britain’s share is £832million."
Makes Theresa May's foul up on the Borders IT project contract look like small change!
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Well if you can glibly blame one minister for the failure of an IT project she had nothing to do with, I guess you can glibly blame everything else on the EU.
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Stick Brussels up yer farce.
No, not literally. You know wot I mean.
When will sanity return to this life. Just a clue will do cos we seem to be putting up with more and more s hite by the day.
Anyone care to disagree?
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Perhaps we should consider how lucky we are living in a country where we can afford to get worked up about a slight restriction on the wattage of domestic appliances.
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The maximum vacuum that can be created is 1 atmosphere - no matter how much extra watts you chuck in, the vacuum ain't getting no stronger.
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But the volume of air moved's important.
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>> Anyone care to disagree?
Yes. Its a not unreasonable step to take. I have a 1000 watt Vacuum cleaner. Its more than adequate. Ãœber advertised watts was merely a marketing exercise, designed to fleece you out of your money. They are doing you a favour matey.
Now go and get het up about something important.
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My wife has a 'Henry' which she says is very good. I don't interfere in her relationship with it but I sense she would miss it. I do use it myself to muck out the cars occasionally. Sucks very well if that's the correct technical term.
She has recently acquired a 'steam mop'. Again I've not come between her and it but apparently it's a very clever thing which applies steam while mopping floor tiles and wooden floors etc and thus cleaning more efficiently and indeed subsequently drying very rapidly. The dog dislikes it, I think she accidentally scalded his paw with it once and he's never, perhaps understandably, been quite at peace with the thing since but I have no strong feelings about it in either a positive or negative way. She did mention though that it has an attachment for cleaning alloy wheels. Might be worth investigating that though.
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>> My wife has a 'Henry' which she says is very good. I don't interfere in
>> her relationship with it but I sense she would miss it. I do use it
>> myself to muck out the cars occasionally. Sucks very well if that's the correct technical
>> term.
>>
We have a Numatic which is the next one up from the Henry, sucks very well for the wattage, no use for removing pet hair from carpets though hence the 'Mr Noisy' Vax.
The on/off switch on the Numatic gave up the ghost after about 3 years, not terribly impressive but an OEM replacement was under a fiver on eBay. Took about 20 mins. to fit, thankfully the Numatic is held together with a few Pozi screws rather than the usual sea of brittle plastic clips.
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>> We have a Numatic which is the next one up from the Henry, sucks very
>> well for the wattage, no use for removing pet hair from carpets though hence the
>> 'Mr Noisy' Vax.
Suction alone will never remove pet hair from a carpet, you need a good rotary brush.
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>> Suction alone will never remove pet hair from a carpet, you need a good rotary
>> brush.
>>
Agreed, which the Vax has; it's just really heavy and by far the noisiest vacuum cleaner I've ever used. Filter needs cleaning every 5 seconds as well. Apart from that it's great ;-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 23:18
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>> you need a good rotary brush.
Or better still, no damn pets.
I just had to put another poor palpitating little mouse thing down the bog, still alive. It didn't bite me, but it struggled a bit.
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>>I just had to put another poor palpitating little mouse<<
I'm thinking 'I knew AC had a heart really'
>>thing down the bog, still alive<<
How could you???
It's poor, palpating and little and you decide to add to it's discomfort by drowning it?
Pat
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>> you decide to add to it's discomfort by drowning it?
Cutting its sufferings short, I hope. If it hadn't been badly injured by the cat I wouldn't have been able to get hold of it.
I hate having to deal with mice that are bashed up but still alive. Perhaps the kindest thing to do would be to blindfold them and recruit a proper military firing squad. Let them have a last cigarette and assure them that it's nothing personal.
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>> Let them have a last cigarette and assure them that it's nothing personal.
Someone seems to object to that.
All right then: leave them alone with a bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver, after murmuring something about doing 'the decent thing, old boy'.
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I'm disappointed not to have got a frowny face at least for the image of the wounded mouse with its bottle of whiskers and huge black service Webley .45, sitting alone in the regimental dining room trying to drink up enough courage to save the regiment's honour.
I have been wondering what Pat does when her cats bring in mortally wounded suffering mice. I know one of them is a tom but even tomcats catch mice, especially when they are young.
Herself adores the damn cat but I'm the one who has to deal with its crime victims. It's assumed that being a man I am not at all squeamish and happy to murder anything. There was a small grey and red object outside the bathroom today, a shrew's head perhaps. Being in reality quite squeamish I tend not to look too closely.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 24 Aug 14 at 17:20
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>> AC, that was a criminal offence,
All motorists are criminals by definition, so I'm used to it. A hardened criminal you might say.
I'm still waiting for Pat to tell me what she does with her cats' maimed but still-alive crime victims.
Two more here this morning, both dead fortunately.
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Sorry AC, been working, it's alright for some!
With four cats it never happens here because as soon as one drops a live mouse to play with it another cat has caught it.
The odd occasion when we can rescue it in a pint beer glass it's taken up the garden and released in the field to take it's chance, I'm afraid.
We try not to interfere with nature anymore than we have to.
Pat
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>> We try not to interfere with nature anymore than we have to.
Thank you Pat. So you leave maimed mice to take their chances with the next predator that comes along. I'm not criticising you. One has to do something when the maimed mice are in the house, and whatever you do it won't make the mice happy and fit.
I'm not sure that the combination of cats, mice, humans and houses constitutes 'nature' strictly speaking. Human agency is present at every level.
My nephew came up with a fantasy the other day that chalk outlines like the ones drawn around street murder victims in the US should be drawn on the floor wherever a dead or wounded mouse has been left. I thought it was very funny indeed. But then I'm heartless.
If one identified closely with mice, squirrels, pigeons and other predator food one's life would be completely unbearable. But then one would be insane.
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>> Stick Brussels up yer farce.
>> When will sanity return to this life. Just a clue will do cos we seem
>> to be putting up with more and more s hite by the day.
A classic example of the kind of EU phobia Mark/NoFM was wont to highlight.
Do we need 2KW vacuum cleaners? Well no actually we don't. The only reason we have them is that the manufacturers and their PR people have inveigled the populace into believing their propaganda in a wattage arms race.
So if the 2000w vac is a snare/delusion and waste of energy will 'liberated' UK (a) legislate same way as EU and ban these things or (b) allow them irrespective?
Now apply same principle to EU legislation on air quality or working conditions.
Do we want same relief from pollution as rest of Europe or to choke on stuff in name of letting capital increase its profit???
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Seems a reasonable enough move, provided there is some requirement for minimum efficiency, otherwise we'll just end up with less suck, presumably. We have a Vax of approx. 2KW at Spamcan Towers and I reckon 1900W of that is emitted as acoustic noise, the racket is unbelievable.
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An independent Scotland will be allowed 2kw vacuum cleaners..... am sure it is in that white paper somewhere.....
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>> Do we want same relief from pollution as rest of Europe or to choke on
>> stuff in name of letting capital increase its profit???
>>
Of course we do, but we can manage that ourselves thank you very much, we don't need to be pushed around by men sitting at desks in Brussels.
British jobsworths for British red-tape !
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Home Office must pay out to Raytheon, the US company, after termination of a deal overseen by Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is ruled unlawful
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>> Home Office must pay out to Raytheon, the US company, after termination of a deal
>> overseen by Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is ruled unlawful
The deal was not overseen by theresa may, it was a deal first started by the Labour government. Theresa May terminated the agreement because of underperformance and cost overruns. , and it was not unlawful it was breach of contract.
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Home Secretary terminated the agreement, for whatever reason. The termination was ruled unlawful and a financial penalty was imposed.
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oh whatever,
Blame it o the EU, you will anyway.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 09:17
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No - I am blaming Theresa May, as press comment is, and as I stated in my original post.
tinyurl.com/k7sgydl
Last edited by: wokingham on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 10:33
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Suggest you get further than the big headlines
Mr Vaz said: "This is a catastrophic result. Minister after minister and successive heads of the UKBA told the select committee that the Government was the innocent party and that Raytheon had failed to deliver.
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So why did the Government have to pay out? A second level of incompetence?
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>> So why did the Government have to pay out? A second level of incompetence?
"Government incompetence" should cover it. Doesn't matter what name or party you put to it, it will still happen.
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And no one gets hung out to dry? :)
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>> And no one gets hung out to dry? :)
You will note I pointed out this anomaly in the hung out to dry thread.
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>> >>I still buy heavy duty 40W and 60W candle bulbs >>
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>> You can still buy industrial standard 100 and 150w bulbs...:-)
>>
I understand that but what are 40W and 60W candle bulbs used in an industrial / heavy duty environment ?
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I like the old Henry...he patiently waits in the workshop and when called upon to carry out his duties, does so very efficiently. I don't use a bag, though. SWM has various vacs but Henry is mine ! Used for garage/workshop and diy duties only although I did use him to clean out the ski....sorry, car, last week...... for the first time since I bought it.
I reckon he could suck a golf ball through a garden hose ( apologies to Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann ).
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>>I understand that but what are 40W and 60W candle bulbs used in an industrial / heavy duty environment ? >>
It's a way of getting round the legislation legally, so still available for domestic use if you know where to buy.....
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>> >>I understand that but what are 40W and 60W candle bulbs used in an industrial / heavy duty environment ?
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>> It's a way of getting round the legislation legally, so still available for domestic use if you know where to buy.....
>>
I forgot to add a smiley.
I can buy 60W in the 99p shop. IIRC in three packs
I can buy both in a small shop also in the main shopping street in Surbiton.
The sheds play things straight and at best stock halogen versions.
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>> >> Does it apply to those canister industrial-style cleaners that will suck up water and
>> workshop
>> >> waste?
>>
>> If you mean those 'Henry' ones, they're 'only' 1200W apparently -
>> www.numatic.co.uk/products4.aspx?id=1
>> ie. ok until 2017.
>>
No, I meant the ones looking like an oil drum, with the motor in a detachable assembly that sits on top. They come in all sizes up to real industrial ones about a yard high, and are very powerful.
They are good if a bit unwieldy for domestic use, but useful for mopping up spillages, and can be plugged into the outlet on sanders etc for dust containment.
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www.eceee.org/ecodesign/products/vacuum_cleaners
Here are the proposed regs. You need to download the pdf
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>> but not enough blood for them to * work at the same time!
*both ;)
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>> The 1600W rule won't affect us
Having said that... actually our £60 Vax is 2000W. Does seem to pick up dust well, although I was a bit worried when I got it out of the box and found that the head doesn't have the rotating brushes mentioned by Z. Foolishly I'd assumed it would, like all the others we've had previously.
Not much of a problem as most of our floors are 'wood', but it's hard work on the soft stuff. (The head does have a carpets setting, but it doesn't wok very well.)
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This directive has lots more tentacles than just vacuums. This is why all electrical appliances have low power standby and auto switch off modes now. Also noise labels on tyres.
It's going to get worse as more classes of products fall in its scope.
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>> This directive has lots more tentacles than just vacuums. This is why all electrical appliances
>> have low power standby and auto switch off modes now. Also noise labels on tyres.
>> It's going to get worse as more classes of products fall in its scope.
In what way is power saving and more consumer information "worse"?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 17:38
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If I want to save power, or anything else, I want it to be MY decision, not some busybody EU office chair polisher with too much time on his/her hands.
As it happens, as an example, I have chosen to fit low consumption electric lights in every light fitting in every house (UK)/flat (Spain) we have lived for the last the last fifteen years or more - but has been MY choice, to save me money long term , no other reason.
Last edited by: Roger. on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 19:07
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Worse was a bad choice of my words. I meant there would be more EU regulations. Lower energy consumption and better consumer information is a good thing.
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>> This directive has lots more tentacles than just vacuums.
TV news (ITV IIRC) this evening mentioned a few including cookers and hair dryers. I would have thought that a less powerful cooker is just going to be on for longer?
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>>This is why all electrical appliances have low power standby and auto switch off modes now. >>
My four and a half year old 42in Panasonic plasma TV has a Standby energy consumption of just 0.4 watts. To be honest, I checked the figure two or three times originally to make sure it wasn't a misprint...
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The EU has ambititious co2 and energy targets to meet. It realises it is difficult to influence people's behaviour apart from pricing activity so it is making the appliances use less energy when they perform Their main function and also in standby modes. They have coffee machine regulations which are quite onerous. The day of the power hungry appliance is over.
I can agree with the comments but that's not the EUs direction.
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For all you "we should leave the EU" agitators....
Got news for you, even if we were out of the EU this kind of thing would still affect us - YOU. Think manufacturers will produce UK specific stuff? No they won't, it will be built for the EU regulations, even the stuff made here.
Here is your no1 lesson that few will listen to.
Outside the EU, commercially and industrially you still have to meet EU regulations, but being outside you have no input into what those regulations are.
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>> Outside the EU, commercially and industrially you still have to meet EU regulations, but being
>> outside you have no input into what those regulations are.
You think that the UK has any input which changes anything the EU decides?
Really?
(Oh, by the way have you noticed that UK specific motor vehicles are made in parts of continental Europe? If there's profit to be made, a market need will be filled)
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>> (Oh, by the way have you noticed that UK specific motor vehicles are made in
>> parts of continental Europe? If there's profit to be made, a market need will be
>> filled)
Only because they wouldn't sell l/h drive cars. You think they are "going to create a market need" for a vacuum cleaner that has 200 watts more?
Anyway if we are out of Europe there wont be any cars made in the UK
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Fri 22 Aug 14 22:00 EU rules - no more powerful vacuum cleaners - Focusless
TV news (ITV IIRC) this evening mentioned a few including cookers and hair dryers. I would have thought that a less powerful cooker is just going to be on for longer?
Correct if nothing else changes but the legislation is designed to make manufacturers improve the Eco design of products and think up ways of doing more with less.
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Your average cooker has not really moved on much in the last 30 years, its time it did. Hobs have outpaced oven design.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 22:12
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There are two eco modes on the new washing machine. I gather they are meant to use less electric and water. But they take over 4 hours! I'm not likely to even try them - maybe if you have economy 7 electric and use overnight?
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"But they take over 4 hours! I'm not likely to even try them - maybe if you have economy 7 electric and use overnight?"
My have solar panels can only generate 3kw max (Kw, wattever), so often my generation is only around 1.5 - 2 Kw on a reasonable day. So lower wattage appliances are OK by me. I just plan around things taking a bit longer. Earlier in the summer I was using a travel kettle rather than the 3Kw Russell Hobbs.
(Having your own "free" power supply does make you re-think how you use the paid-for stuff - like doing the washing machine after the dishwasher, not at the same time. My leccy bills were over 30% down in year 1 and that was probably as much down to thinking about how I use power as much as using the home-generated stuff).
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 23:02
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Surely the figure you need to be aware of is KWh? Having some panels generate less in total might impact costs?
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Just looked - my software measures in kWh, yesterday was 9.9 over the day and right now it's generating 249w. (I think my base load is somewhere around 500w)
Some people use diversion devices to maximise use of their solar - when they're not using it al, divert the electricity to an immersion heater. Too much faffing for me, would need a new tank and immersion as well as the device which works out what you're generating and what you're using before diverting to your store.
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I don't follow the thought process that says it's too much faff to organise a new tank and some electric components to save tuppence, if you've already gone to the faff of panels on the roof, electrical components and so on at a cost of many thousands to save, well, relatively, tuppence?
Anything with a payback of five years or more is too far in the future for my taste, I admit.
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Components would be in excess of £500, plus fitting and disruption. I believe my excess generation would take a long time to pay that back.
Panels on the roof were c £10.5k just under three years back and it's looking like I will have that back after 7 years. After that I have a guaranteed annual index linked income until 25 years are up, this year should be well over £1500. Plus presumably some savings on the electricity I don't take from the grid.
I didn't do any serious maths but it seemed a good idea at the time - but it was a bit of a rushed decision to catch the better FIT rate before it was reduced. I don't regret it, we have no plans to move and are likely to retire in the next 3 - 5 years so every little will help.
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>> There are two eco modes on the new washing machine. I gather they are meant
>> to use less electric and water. But they take over 4 hours! I'm not likely
>> to even try them
Why? its not as if you have to stand by the machine and supervise, is it?
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Surely it's difficult to improve on the efficiency of an electrical appliance designed to provide heat like an oven. Does not virtually all the electrical power get turned into heat in such a device? If you need X amount of watts to heat an oven to 200 degrees C that's what you need. Ovens are all thermostatically controlled and efficiently insulated so it's difficult to see how they can be improved in terms of efficiency.
Going back to the vacuum cleaners the maximum wattage for a household device in the United States is around 1400 watts (120v. X 12 amps max "draw") and they seem to manage. Electric kettles are just rubbish there though!
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>> Surely it's difficult to improve on the efficiency of an electrical appliance designed to provide
>> heat like an oven. Does not virtually all the electrical power get turned into heat
>> in such a device? If you need X amount of watts to heat an oven
>> to 200 degrees C that's what you need. Ovens are all thermostatically controlled and efficiently
>> insulated so it's difficult to see how they can be improved in terms of efficiency.
you can reduce the amount of watts required to produce 200c by using more efficient elements and heat distribution methods, and current ovens are far from efficiently insulated. Few if none use heat loss recovery systems.
currently the cheap ones are a thin tin box with 2000 watt electric fire in it.
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Don't know much about these things but I thought electric heating elements were all much of a muchness. Is not nearly 100% of electricity turned into heat?
How does a heat recovery system work?
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>> Don't know much about these things but I thought electric heating elements were all much
>> of a muchness. Is not nearly 100% of electricity turned into heat?
No element type, design, material, method makes a different. As does how you get it into the oven and the speed of element heating. This has to be weighed against durability of the element.
>>
>> How does a heat recovery system work?
So many different ways, airflow, heatsinking, convection, re-radiation - but essentially heat that gets lost through the door and casing is channelled back into the oven cavity. Currently makers try and keep the heat away from you or surrounding "furniture" mine has a fan on the outside to blow the unwanted heat away!
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>> currently the cheap ones are a thin tin box with 2000 watt electric fire in it.
>>
On the other hand the oven my daughter bought last year is rated at 16A but it can be divided into two with a fancy shelf and separate controls for each part
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With the poor light from the EU approved lightbulbs you will not need such a powerful vacuum cleaner AS YOU WON'T SEE the dirt!!
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I have EU approved bulbs and they are well bright enough
Sure it was all a bit dim for a while, BUT like the rules are supposed to work, makers stepped up to the mark.
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Swapped a lot out for the LED jobbies. Dear but at least I've got some decent light back.
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The Fourth Reich (EU) is far more successful than the Third one.
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We opted for a modern fluorescent fitting in our kitchen. Everyone marks how bright it is. Ok may not be trendy but about the most efficient and cheapest lighting you can buy.
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By the same thought process expect them to start banning more things that are needlessly powerful, such as cars perhaps?
But not, of course, EU bureaucrats.
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EU rules - no more powerful vacuum cleaners - Focusless
