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Greece - Would you fly out to Greece Tomorrow?
Just curious, but if you were due to fly out to Greece for a 7 day break.... would you at the moment? We're due to go to Crete on Saturday with Ryanair. And with Thomas Cook for 2 weeks early May too!
I'm not confident they will be in the Euro for much longer. And never should have been of course.
I wonder if Fursty Ferret has an opinion. What if they go bankrupt when you're abroad - what about flights back? I know FF's company fly to Crete for example (and very good they are too).
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Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 7 Jul 15 at 10:31
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I wouldn't think twice, absolutely I would go.
I would have insurance and I would have booked it with a guaranteed operator
Those would get me my money back and me home, but might not help quickly; So I'd have some extra cash to keep myself in comfort in the hotel for up to a week while I waited if necessary. Don't forget, if nobody is leaving for sure nobody will be arriving so there'll be loads of hotel rooms - although you might need to pay in cash (NOT Euros!).
If you're still stressed, and I wouldn't be, then remember you can always catch a boat to Italy.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 26 Mar 15 at 00:28
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yes I would go. you have insurance, but I would have some dollars handy.
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Why would you not?
Neither Ryan Air or Thomas Cook are going bust if Greece leave the EURO and you are ATOL protected anyway.
The only problem you might encounter if Greece love the EURO is access to your bank. so take cash - always the best method of payment in Greece anyway. Euros will be fine and believe me they will be in high demand by the Greeks if they have to revert to the Drachma.
You will be more welcome that ever .
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I'd go. I don't get any impression they're going bankrupt in the next week. Though pack a jumper, it was like a fridge in Athens two days ago.
You'd be able to get back if Greece went under anyway; the military would probably step in to handle ATC at major airports and it's not as if Greece pay airlines to fly there. I did offer the dispatcher €20 (or 350,000,000 Drachma) for the airport last week, didn't go down well.
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>> airlines to fly there. I did offer the dispatcher €20 (or 350,000,000 Drachma) for the
>> airport last week, didn't go down well.
He'll snatch your hand off next week. Have to say tho, I would be doing my very best to stay on the good side of the people on the ground fiddling about with my aircraft......
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 26 Mar 15 at 10:05
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We are intending going just wondered what others thought. We are taking plenty of Euros as cash as we usually do. Hotel is cash only too. I will also take some £'s just in case.
I'm hoping they hang on until at least a week or so before things got worse if they don't satisfy the Troika on Monday.
I am hoping Crete is a bit warmer than Athens but will have a fleece.
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Go and enjoy yourself ....... Crete is beautiful ,we have been going for many years and are heading there again in June.Just take plenty of cash and you will be fine.
I have a number of facebook friends there who have recently posted photos of snow,particularly in the west.
It can be quite cold in the mountains, even in June.
Where in Crete are you staying?
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We're staying in Chania. Looks like some thundery and wet weather at the weekend. We fly on Saturday morning. I was planning on wearing shorts and t-shirt in the day!
We might not venture to far when there but will look around to see if we'd eventually like a property there - probably after Greece defaults and leave the Euro ;-)
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Why on earth would you *not* take Euros? They'll still be Euros, whereas Dollars or Sterling will not be the local currency.
I'm afraid I'm betting against Grexit now. (Which means it will happen, of course.)
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Enjoy your trip to Chania rtj , the harbour and old mosque are very pretty although the restaurants around the harbour can be pricey by Cretan standards.
I can recommend Tamam restaurant which is set in an old turkish bath just one lane back from the harbour.
We usually hire a car and disappear into the mountains where we have friends and just chill out by the pool .
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>> Why on earth would you *not* take Euros?
We got our Euros when the rate was higher. It went higher still but has dropped. We got enough to probably last for our May holiday too. This one per week likely to be more expensive.
Thanks for the tip on Tamam. We're staying near the harbour so it won't be far from us. In fact just checked and its 130m. I'd already looked at Trip Advisor for recommendations and looking at my list this one's already on there (rated #36). But good to have a recommendation from someone on here :-)
We'll try to enjoy! Weather not looking so good for Saturday and Sunday though.
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Got back today and had a good time. Checked out the suggestion of Tamam but the food was not the sort we like (lots of meat including rabbit etc. We only eat some pork and chicken).
Had a good time and found some good restaurants. One doing meze with a twist (Greek influence) was excellent.
Keeping an eye on the situation in Greece. Due back there in 4 weeks.
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"The only problem you might encounter if Greece love the EURO is access to your bank. so take cash - always the best method of payment in Greece anyway."
And therein lies the heart of the problem. The Greeks do not like paying tax. Not that any of us do of course.
Couple of years ago we went for a second visit to Corfu and stayed at a small family run hotel in Palaiokastritsa. It was quiet. Normally when you arrive they have your passports for registration and return them later. Not here. Couldn't pay for anything bought during the day and at the end of evening meal when I went to square up the tab the owners wife (not that she wasn't the co-owner) opened up an A4 hardback book with a few random scribblings in. "60 Euros". It was "60 Euros" every night and all but one night we gave them our custom. On Trip Advisor its known as the '60 Euro Hotel'. So I'm sure for all intents and purposes for tax purposes we weren't there.
Like Corfu.
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No. Not whilst there is still decent skiing high up in the Alps.
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The White Mountains on Crete still had snow last week. Not suitable for skiing mind.
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Is that why they are called White?
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In a word ......Yes.
I am sorry Tamam was not to your liking rtj . I admit that I am a devout carnivore but am surprised you could not find something to suit.
Glad you enjoyed your holiday.
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No need to apologise helicopter :-) We found a few other places we liked and stuck with those. We loved Chania. And Crete (had been to the other side of the island once before). We will go again.
There probably were a few things on the menu we could have had though.
Apparently the mountains have some snow on them for 6 months of the year. It was disappearing by the time we left.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 5 Apr 15 at 13:01
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Here's a little snippet I picked up on today;
91% of the bailout funds Greece has received has gone on repaying Banks.
That's something we won't let Wonga do to individual people, but the IMF does it to countries?
For exactly that reason the Greek finance minister said that Greece should never have been given a loan in the first place, even though it asked for it.
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A haircut of debt is inevitable.
Has been since the start of this nonsense.
If a person/family/business/country is spending more than it earns, in what way does a 'bail-out' (candidate for euphemism of the century?) act in any way other than a 'consolidation loan' that cannot possibly be paid back?
For Europe to work as a Federation, especially with a common currency, they rich nations will simply need to accept they will be redistributing some of their wealth to the poorer nations.
A bit like Scotland giving rUK financial assistance over the past 40 years.
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>> A bit like Scotland giving rUK financial assistance over the past 40 years.
>>
Have you been reading Enid Blyton again?
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>> Have you been reading Enid Blyton again?
Or do you think Lygonos that North Sea oil belongs to Scotland and would make it an independent separate country if not being stolen by the UK?
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Its a small world, my heating runs on English gas landed at Easington, I expect the Lygonos mansion uses it too.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 7 May 15 at 18:21
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That Robert Peston, BBC Economics Editor.
Huh! What does he know?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29278544
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>> Here's a little snippet I picked up on today;
>>
>> 91% of the bailout funds Greece has received has gone on repaying Banks.
Well it wouldn't have done if the Greeks had stuck with the terms of the loan that meant they had to cut other expenditure.
While we have banana republics in the EU we need Military Dictatorship force. Roll in and take over the loons in charge till they are back on track.
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It's a funny world. Both lenders and borrowers use the word "loan", but each knows it really means "gift".
You couldn't lend me a fiver could you, old chap?
Half a crown guv for a cup of tea?
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www.bbc.com/news/business-33164924
Continuing with this bailout, which seems to me as essentially the same as paying the minimum payment on your credit card by increasing your credit limit, seems pointless and never ending.
I cannot see how this will go on. The creditors now want to increase VAT on electricity. Well, maybe there should be VAT on power, or maybe not. But either way its not going to achieve any more than ensure that Greece can continue to make its monthly minimum payment.
Its keeping the patient sufficiently alive just to ensure the interest payments continue. The machine needs to be unplugged.
There comes a time..
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It's the Wonga approach. Make the money from the interest. Problem is that the principal will never be repaid.
It's got to happen; the question is just "When?" And being a miserable old so and so, I've been saying 'very soon' for 18 months at least.
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OK, its the Mail, but a hint of truth?
tinyurl.com/ouf4xot
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>>OK, its the Mail, but a hint of truth?
"Crisis plans to help British holidaymakers were being drawn up last night..."
What a load of old tosh.
Its a made up piece. Its all "sources said", "it is felt that.." "Nobody is predicting anything but..." etc. etc. I'd guess it was a slow news day.
However, I would make sure I had both cash and credit cards with me, but then I always do.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 17 Jun 15 at 12:27
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>>What a load of old tosh.
>>
As always No FM2R knows best, as Zero is on holiday.
news.sky.com/story/1503717/greece-uk-steps-up-preparations-for-grexit
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 17 Jun 15 at 12:43
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>> There comes a time..
Yup. The creditors will have to take a hit sooner or later. Ideally before there is a revolution in Greece, which sounds like a worse outcome.
Maybe the fear is that other, bigger dominoes will fall.
All a bit beyond me. I can just about grasp micawbernomics.
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When we went to Greece earlier this year (twice) I assumed there might be a problem using cards and took plenty of cash. Although we normally only use cash anyway I had a little more just in case.
I am also replying to post on occasion on Trip Advisor telling people not to rely on ATMs for cash. Some seem to think it's a good idea to get a better rate by taking out cash when you're there.
It looked like they'd have defaulted before now to be honest - but found the money somehow. This time the sums are a lot bigger and there's more to pay next month. So either a deal is done or they default and things begin to go wrong.
Would I book a holiday to Greece for later this year? I already have done recently. We'll either be able to go or we won't. It will have all started to go wrong before we get there if it's going to (I think).
I don't think Greece can continue as they are. And I can't see the other countries officially writing off debt, e.g. Slovenia or even Germany.
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>>Maybe the fear is that other, bigger dominoes will fall.
The fear is, as always, precedence.
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What is the problem if Greece defaults?
They were leaving happily when using Drachma before Euro.
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>>What is the problem if Greece defaults?
Seriously?
Well equate it to an individual;
If you don't pay a huge loan, do you think the banks will simply shrug their shoulders and let it go? They'll take every asset you've got that they can and drive you bankrupt.
And if you have no money and now can't get credit, how will you pay for the stuff you need to live?
If you simply write more IOUs (which is what cash is), who do you think is going to accept them?
And how will you pay your doctor and nurses? How will you pay any people who work for you?
It is a lot more serious than simply changing currency.
Even to the point that they can't afford to pay anyone to print drachmas for them.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 17 Jun 15 at 12:40
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>> Well equate it to an individual;
It is a country and not an individual, isn't it? That is a massive difference.
Nobody is going go drop bombs on them if they can't pay.
They can ask goods from outside Euro zone on a bartering system e.g. you give me oil and I shall give you some steel in return (something like that).
They can build up their forex reserve by accepting £$€ from tourists which they will use when bartering system won't work.
Internally they can use Drachma which should be fine within Greece (but won't work outside the country).
It is not end of the world and doable.
Last edited by: movilogo on Wed 17 Jun 15 at 12:58
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Makes you wonder what they're all worried about then.
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>> Makes you wonder what they're all worried about then.
>>
Military coup? The last one ended about 40 years ago.
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As long as we can still get Greek olive oil I don't much care what happens. My missus isn't so keen on the Spanish or Italian varieties.
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I think that the debt will be written off and all parties involved know it. For politcical purposes they are pretending that they can somehow pay it off. I wonder when they will stop the games and bite the bullet?
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Debts be written off or a long period to be payed backThe Greeks have been at fault and so have the banks.Call it even.
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Ah, the cry of the debtor through the ages. "It's all your fault you shouldn't have lent me the money"
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>> I think that the debt will be written off and all parties involved know it.
>> For politcical purposes they are pretending that they can somehow pay it off. I wonder
>> when they will stop the games and bite the bullet?
>>
Due to the austerity that it's suffering, Greece hasn't got a bullet to bite.
Reportedly Germany is sending one...
... along with 200 Tanks, 10,000 Infantry, 150 APCs, 50 Fighter-Bombers, Three battalions of paratroopers .....
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They did that before. The Greeks are still not keen on the Germans.
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The fears are mostly precedence based;
If Greece defaults, leaves the Euro but then in the near/mid future starts to improve, then the Euro in particular will be totally discredited, and the "want out" groups will be unstoppable.
Iceland's crisis was at least as bad as Greece's, but since they were not part of the Euro they were able to devalue their currency. Now they are in far better shape than Greece.
Watch Portugal, Spain and Italy dash through the door if Greece looks like working out well.
To an extent, politically, there would be much less resistance to a Greek exit if they were sure to crash and burn.
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>> Iceland's crisis was at least as bad as Greece's, but since they were not part
>> of the Euro they were able to devalue their currency. Now they are in far
>> better shape than Greece.
And they've done that by developing tourism, something Greece is already equipped for.
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It is said, and I believe it to be correct, that a single currency needs a single point of economic and fiscal control - a much, much closer union.
That must be the biggest argument against the Euro I've heard.
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>> The fears are mostly precedence based;
>>
>> Watch Portugal, Spain and Italy dash through the door if Greece looks like working out
>> well.
Oye - us too!
Collapse of E.U. super State!
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You don't like the EU because its foreign and because you think it is the source of immigration problems, foreigners taking your jobs, and other Daily Wail-y stuff. etc. etc.
What you do not seem to realise is that you are the EU's greatest friends. Your views on foreigners are so obnoxious that people will tend to vote to remain in the EU rather than be associated with your ilk - certainly that's how I feel, and I am a voter.
Whether it was right or wrong, how many people did not vote for UKIP in the GE simply because their perceptions were so swayed by the party's seemingly racist views?
Quite genuinely I sit here pondering the EU in a fairly objective way, I'm not a fool and I've learned stuff, and I end up with a fairly sensible view (I think). And then someone sets me off with their anti-Europe-because-its-foreign attitude.
And its not like your views are obnoxious yet basically right. They are obnoxious and clueless. I think it was Bromp who posted a piece about how the foreigners are claiming all our benefits, lazing around on our sofas, hanging around at our traffic junctions and taking all our jobs.
You will vote No because its foreign. People with views like yours are not capable of objectively working out whether or not it is a good idea. There's not enough of you to carry an "out" vote on your own, but there is enough of you to weaken it. Once in your life Europe was relevant, and you wanted to live there. Now its not relevant to you and so you've emotionally yanked up the drawbridge and put the blinkers on.
It may be a good thing to leave the EU. Or rather, perhaps there is little reason to remain within it. Come the referendum I will look to see what I think about the positive/negative points as a nationalist Brit, and the positive/negative points as someone who would like to see the world globally improve.
And then I shall vote.
It seems to me that there is room for the EU to be a good or a bad thing. And without prejudice we simply need to decide which we believe it will become, and vote accordingly.
I've really tried not to be insulting with this post, which is tough given my feelings, but hopefully I've managed it.
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Chalk and cheese you cats. Different worldviews.
Both right of course.
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I certainly do not want this thread or, indeed, forum, to descend to unpleasantness, so I think I won't reply in the heat of the moment to your post.
What I will do, is to give it some thought and see if I can compose a reply which is polite enough not to offend, but will also address the prejudices to which you adhere - namely thinking that anyone who opposes your view is, by definition, both stupid and evil!
This may prove both to be more than my temperament will allow, and exceed the time I'm prepared to devote to such a task!
:-)
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>> thinking that anyone who opposes your view is, by definition, both stupid and evil!
I suggest that you use some of your calming time to re-read what I actually said and try to understand before replying.
I can quite see how that may prove both to be more than your temperament will allow, and exceed the time you're prepared to devote to such a task.
:-) <- I put a smiley so that means you can't think I'm rude. Its the rules.
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>>Oye - us too!
>>Collapse of E.U. super State!
Tis in a state alright, dunno about being super though.
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>> To an extent, politically, there would be much less resistance to a Greek exit if
>> they were sure to crash and burn.
If Greece do default will the EU just stand back and let it get on with it or could they put their own governance in place ?
Say the EU take control and improve the situation in Greece and turn it around, then Portugal, Spain and Italy think hey, Greece are doing allright maybe we should work more closely with EU governance.
Just an alternative thought.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 18 Jun 15 at 10:04
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If Greece exits the EU I will buy everyone on this forum a pint
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of Kaliber :)
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Mines a half litre of Mythos ...ice cold,served by a pool in Greece......
Oh wait.. I forgot ..I am already there drinking it.
The normal Greeks I am talking too here are hard working and are fed up with being portrayed as feckless and lazy tax avoiders. They are taxed to the hilt and working harder for less return and want to find a way out of the euro and the general opinion seems to be that they should never have joined up in the first place.
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>> the general opinion seems to be that they should never have joined up in the first place.
Hindsight is great.
The Greek's we know are hard working too. And taxed heavily. Some have now been classed as having multiple businesses and therefore pay business tax on each. So a family run business with say accommodation, restaurant and car hire must pay 3 lots of business taxes.
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>>They are taxed to the hilt and working harder for less return and want to find a way out of the euro and the general opinion seems to be that they should never have joined up in the first place.
Perhaps that is the answer then. Keeping our own currency hasn't done us any harm, far from it in fact.
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From AC's comic, this morning:
It is hard today to remember how countercultural keeping the pound felt in the late Nineties and early 2000s: Britain was being pressurised to join the euro by vast swathes of the UK and international establishment, a powerful group that has yet to be held fully to account for such a reckless error of judgment.
Hardly a day would go by without a senior business person or the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) warning that foreign investment would dry up if we didn’t join; and economists were convinced that countries that embraced the euro would benefit from an enormous boom in trade.
Eurosceptics were portrayed as fogeyish, nationalistic simpletons who didn’t understand the direction of history. The Greeks and others listened; we didn’t, thanks to the good sense of the British public and the efforts of a tiny number of anti-euro campaigners and the Tory opposition.
Sound familiar?
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>> From AC's comic, this morning:
>>
>> It is hard today to remember how countercultural keeping the pound felt in the late
>> Nineties and early 2000s: Britain was being pressurised to join the euro by vast swathes
>> of the UK and international establishment, a powerful group that has yet to be held
>> fully to account for such a reckless error of judgment.
>>
>> Hardly a day would go by without a senior business person or the Confederation of
>> British Industry (CBI) warning that foreign investment would dry up if we didn’t join; and
>> economists were convinced that countries that embraced the euro would benefit from an enormous boom
>> in trade.
>>
>> Eurosceptics were portrayed as fogeyish, nationalistic simpletons who didn’t understand the direction of history. The
>> Greeks and others listened; we didn’t, thanks to the good sense of the British public
Posted in error, sorry.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 18 Jun 15 at 10:36
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The main reason we stayed out of the Euro was because Gordon Brown was opposed rather than some mythical public movement.
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>> The main reason we stayed out of the Euro was because Gordon Brown was opposed
>> rather than some mythical public movement.
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I think that there were three reasons:
1) Gordon Brown was lukewarm on the Euro project anyway
2) Brown knew Blair wanted to join the Euro and by that stage in their relationship it was a way of hurting Blair to refuse to join
3) New Labour were smooth political operators and knew that polls showed that the majority of people in the UK didn't want to join. Why risk losing votes over something that you don't particularly care about - therefore, don't join.
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>> The main reason we stayed out of the Euro was because Gordon Brown was opposed
>> rather than some mythical public movement.
>>
So one Labour party member kept us out of what another wanted us to join. The Conservatives were dead against it.
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>> So one Labour party member kept us out of what another wanted us to join.
> The Conservatives were dead against it
The Chancellor was a pretty big beast in Govt. The Tories were at time weak and divided opposition.
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Must be about the only thing we can thank GB for....!
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>>thanks to the good sense of the British public
?? My a***!!
I didn't even know the British Public voted against it.
Still, since the British Public were responsible for saving the day there, how about we blame the British Public for letting the Banks screw up?
Sounds familiar only insofar as it is standard media tripe.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 18 Jun 15 at 10:47
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Didn't the banks screw up without the publics help? They got bailed out by the British Public the banks that screwed up and at what cost.
Fred the Shred took a runner to the South of France the main man of Bank of Scotland.
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I can see no way on earth that Greece will ever be able to pay off its debt. Especially since even the EU only wants a 1% surplus rising to 2%.
It will be devastating in the short term within Greece if they default and leave the Euro. But perhaps in the medium to long term it will be better. Equally perhaps not.
The alternative is many, many years of debt and minimum payments with, I suspect, a need for a further bail out 2 years or so from now.
So if Greece are faced with no light at the end of the tunnel and leave, and then it appears that after initial disaster there is alight at the end of the tunnel, then what do we think Spain and Portugal will do?
And just how far will the EU go with Greece to stop that?
Bear in mind that in Spain in particular there is already fairly strong anti-Euro feelings, so they won't get better. Their politicians could be pushed to do something, even if they don;t wish to, even if they think it the wrong thing to do, just to remain in power.
The UK is not under those pressures. It should be clear that the problem these countries have is not the EU, it is the Euro.
Whatever we decide about membership of the EU, we would have to be quite silly to think that the Euro was a good idea for the forseable future, and only a good idea ever if we are prepared to accept the philosophy that a financial union is based upon the principle that better off economies subsidise worse off economies.
That is already the case as members of the IMF, but the Euro makes that considerably more intense.
Which prompts the question that since closer financial union is the stated goal of the EU, how is that compatible with a country's stated desire to remain outside the Euro?
On the face of it they would seem to be entirely incompatible.
Perhaps in order to address our membership of the EU, the current agreements are secondary, it is the future intent and direction that the EU has for the Euro that we should be discussing.
For your information; (approx) [you will note that Portugal's debt is higher than Greece's]
Greece:
Unemployment: 26%
Debt/GDP ratio: 317%
Spain:
Unemployment: 23.7%
Debt/GDP ratio: 313%
Portugal:
Unemployment: 13.5%
Debt/GDP ratio: 358%
For comparison;
UK:
Unemployment: 5.5%
Debt/GDP ratio: 97%
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 18 Jun 15 at 15:45
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I don't agree with some of the following, but its quite interesting.
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33084508
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>> I don't agree with some of the following, but its quite interesting.
I translated an enormous Trotskyist book on the Greek civil war and all its ramifications.Later met the widow of a major figure in the book who had been maimed in a murder attempt on her husband by the famous colonels. Makes you think that sort of thing.
I didn't know the Greek Communist Party (KKE) was the world's oldest CP, dating from 1904. It hasn't advanced much according to the Trotskyist book...
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Ok. That's good, I guess.
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The way the money people are carrying on do they want civil war in Greece?
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They have lost patience with Greece, because in meetings they say one thing, then in public they say another, and then return to the meeting ever denying they said anything in the first place. All they are doing is trying to milk a domestic public face.
The final straw is the is the new referendum. They are only doing it as a delaying tactic and bargaining chip.
Enough is enough say the ECB - shut up, put up or get out.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 28 Jun 15 at 11:53
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"... the new referendum. They are only doing it as a delaying tactic and bargaining chip."
A bit more than that. If the Greeks vote no to the (feeble) concessions Tsipras offered to the EU/IMF and support his anti-austerity posturing, then when Greece is kicked out of the eurozone the rest of the EU, with Germany as the ring-leader, will be blamed for all of Greece's woes - its collapsing economy, its empty banks and its suffering people who can't afford food and have no jobs.
It will all be someone else's fault. "Those damn Nazis have done it to us again."
Last edited by: Observer on Sun 28 Jun 15 at 12:27
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>> met the widow of a major figure in the book who had been maimed in a murder attempt on her husband by the famous colonels.
The major figure wasn't a Trot or ideologue really. He was General Sarafis, an army officer of humane and liberal views, anathema to the fascist colonels. The murder attempt was done with a car, which tried to run over them as they crossed a road.
The lady had both legs snapped sideways at the knee, and they stayed like that after hasty treatment, crippling her for life. The annoying thing is that I can't remember offhand whether he was killed in the attempt. He's dead now though.
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>> The annoying thing is that I can't remember offhand whether he was killed in the attempt
He was.
According to Wiki it was a traffic accident, the car being driven by a USAF NCO who was drunk. However, Greek sources are convinced it had been a deliberate murder, and so am I on the whole. But it occurred in 1957, before the colonels' régime, at a time when the US and Britain were trying to prop up the Greek monarchy and political right against the leftist coalition ELAS.
I'd forgotten too that the widow was English.
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>> I'd forgotten too that the widow was English.
Although I had interviewed her at great length, several hours.
Duh... but it was quite a long time ago.
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Among other interesting things Mrs Sarafis told me about ELAS, she was extremely hostile to Aris Velouchiotis, a prominent ELAS guerilla fighter. She regarded him as a sadist and psychopath... such people often succeed in warfare of course.
ELAS was a broad progressive coalition which included Communists, trots like Aris and left-leaning liberals like Sarafis. All a long time ago but it was forgetful of me to mention the colonels who came later. Elas operated at a time when the US and the British were trying to prop up the Greek political right (and monarchy) against the overwhelming wishes of the Greek majority.
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This will test how indepedant the ECB really is and whether they will actually follow through.
Edit breaking news. They'll carry on funding Greece, not great surprise.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33304674
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 28 Jun 15 at 13:40
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So am I right here?
Money from Europe's taxpayers (or via the ECB's own notional printing presses) is going through the ECB and near-empty Greek banks (in violation of EU Treaties) straight into the pockets of people who are being asked now to vote on whether they want to keep taking the cash with no hope of ever paying it back and to keep using the Euro rather than try to rebuild their economy on a basis that works practically everywhere else in the world?
Or have I missed something?
This becomes more bizarre by the hour.
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"This becomes more bizarre by the hour."
Indeed. The Greeks will vote to keep taking the cash without taking steps to clean up their act, despite the fact that their country is already heavily in debt, and the rest of Europe will, quite rightly, tell them to take a running jump.
And it's totally not the Greeks' fault.
Well, the Greeks did invent drama as an art form. Whether this is comedy, tragedy, tragi-comedy or farce (yes, the ancient Greeks had something like this in all but name) depends on your standpoint.
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It shows one thing how quickly a prime minister can call a referendum if he wants to. .He is pushed in a corner and had enough.The Greeks with money will have shifted most of their cash out of the local banks me thinks.
Ordinary folks will have to carry the brunt of the cuts pensions etc.Curious how it is going to pan out.
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>> It shows one thing how quickly a prime minister can call a referendum if he
>> wants to. .He is pushed in a corner and had enough.
He is not pushed to a corner. He can't deliver what he promised, (and knew he couldn't when he campaigned, and knew he couldn't when elected and thinks if he calls a referendum he can push the inevitable back, till then and will have a weapon if he gets the mandate.
>>Ordinary folks will have to carry the brunt of the cuts pensions etc.Curious how it is going to >>pan out.
If the ordinary folks had ever paid any income tax, or contributed anything towards their pensions or services then they might be able to get some sympathy.
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>> Or have I missed something?
>> This becomes more bizarre by the hour.
Its always a bizarre thought when circumstances reveal that banks* don't actually have the cash that everyone puts into it.
*Anyones bank, anywhere in the world.
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True they haven't.Most of us thinks it is the savers who supply the loans.Not true,the figure of money you need is typed out.They the banks got you on the interest that is where the con is.
Try to find out how the system works there are many people on the internet or books who will explant it.Should be taught in school.
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>>
>> Try to find out how the system works there are many people on the internet
>> or books who will explant it.Should be taught in school.
>>
Well it was part of the 'A' level Economics syllabus back in '79, presumably it still is. For sure there's plenty of people around who don't seem to realise that the entire banking system is a house of cards, and has been for a long time.
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>>the banks got you on the interest that is where the con is.
The con?
Obviously, not only should courses be available, you should have done one.
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"Edit breaking news. They'll carry on funding Greece, not great surprise.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33304674"
I wouldn't place to much emphasis on this. The article also says, "... the ECB is not providing any additional aid to Greece" and that the situation would be under constant review.
It's just an attempt to try to prove to Greece that the EU is trying to do everything to save the country from its own madness.
Last edited by: Observer on Sun 28 Jun 15 at 14:31
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>> I wouldn't place to much emphasis on this. The article also says, "... the ECB
>> is not providing any additional aid to Greece" and that the situation would be under
>> constant review.
I read that as carrying on the money they are handing out.
The real change will come when both parties acknowledge the Greeks can't pay the money, it's simply too much. Practicality is the order of the day, when that day will be who knows?
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"I read that as carrying on the money they are handing out."
I think not - I think it means they're not calling in the loan.
An article in the FT makes it clear no more money will be given out - the present loans will be frozen.
tinyurl.com/nv6c84a
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We are not far down the line when it comes to money we own.Italy Spain Portugal to name a few also.That is why Greece will be saved it could snowball and the European dream is over.
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Richard Branston had a talk about Europe this morning.I don't mind him top entrepreneur and motivator.Big companies like his are very pro Europe and you can understand why.Easy transactions and not to many barriers.
It is when you go down the scale it becomes complex.The smaller business seem to struggle more with redtape.It is such a complicated subject because most of us don't understand what is going on.
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I used to really enjoy 'Call My Bluff' - but I don't think there will be many laughs in this version.
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I am disappointed in Tsipras and his government for not giving the Greek people a referendum earlier. I can see how he does not have the authority to accept the bailout money on the terms offered. But the Greek's may vote to accept what was offered - after the offer has actually been withdrawn. Although I am sure if they did we'd see: (1) a new Greek government/coalition and (2) a new deal or the old one extended after all.
Tsipras and team are saying they should be given time to ask the people and the bailout extending for a month. Well they should have asked them before 30th June. That deadline was set years ago when they had the last bailout.
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Am in Corfu at the moment. No sign of any queues at cash machines in Corfu Town this morning. I think most Greeks have had their cash stashed away for a while now. Looks like pensions due on 1st July are unlikely to be paid on time which is going to hit some people very hard.
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The Beeb says only 40% of ATMs have any cash in them...
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>> I am disappointed in Tsipras and his government for not giving the Greek people a
>> referendum earlier.
>>
Tsipras is holding the referendum to save his own skin. He fought the election on an anti austerity package, which now he has seen the books and realises the extent of the problem he knows full well isn't viable. Rather than be accused of a U-turn and welshing on his pre-election promises he has come up with this idea - so that whatever the result he can turn round to the Greek people and say, "Not my fault, I was only doing what you told me to".
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>> whatever the result he can turn round to the Greek people and say, "Not my fault, I was only
>> doing what you told me to".
I agree with all you say. Except his timing. If the majority want to accept the offer and it's no longer on the table - a real risk - then he is to blame. I am sure something could still be agreed but nobody knows what that might be.
It's not as if I have another Greek holiday booked in September or anything ;-)
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Nephew and his mother flew out this morning. Don't imagine either will have any backup / mitigation........
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>It's not as if I have another Greek holiday booked in September or anything ;-)
We've been planning to take a short break sailing around the Ionian for a week or so in mid/late Sept when the harbours aren't as crowded with Sunsail flotillas.
A couple of the boats I'd bookmarked are now no longer listed on the original (greek) website but one of them has appeared on a UK site quoted in sterling.
Nice if you can switch some of your income out of the country I guess.
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Is that going out of Nidri on Lefkas? I'd have thought most of their boats are heading back to Nidri for the winter.
Our holiday is Lesvos again. Booked knowing things might get into this mess. It was a risk we were willing to take.
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>Is that going out of Nidri on Lefkas? I'd have thought most of their boats are heading back to Nidri for the winter.
Yes, there's a boatyard at the NW corner of Tranquil Bay above Vliho where quite a few private owners base and over-winter their boats.
Tranquil Bay is a bit of a misnomer though. It's the only place in Greece where I've had to sail around for more than an hour under power because a sudden thunderstorm made it too dangerous to try and get tied up or anchor.
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I'm sure Richard Branston will get out of the pickle some how.
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>> I'm sure Richard Branston will get out of the pickle some how.
>>
Yes. But he must beetroot to his principles.
Last edited by: Londoner on Sun 28 Jun 15 at 22:09
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Euro devaluing nicely this evening. Need to pay for the rest of my villa over the next couple of weeks, but holding out for the optimum rate.
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>> >> I'm sure Richard Branston will get out of the pickle some how.
>> >>
>> Yes. But he must beetroot to his principles.
He knows his beans
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Think I read somewhere last month that this is heavily the IMF's fault?
Foreign banks became too exposed to Greek debt/default risk (their own fault) and the IMF didn't want to - or couldn't - cover their losses (as is the habitual role of the IMF).
A Frenchman heading the IMF needed to find a solution for his French banking compatriots...
So the IMF cunningly lent to the Greek government to bail out the banks. Bingo - the Greek people are on the hook not the banking fraternity, and the big French banks get funded...?!!
Apparently it is not the role of the IMF to bail-out countries, but by doing so they have stitched everyone up.
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>> We are not far down the line when it comes to money we own.Italy Spain
>> Portugal to name a few also.That is why Greece will be saved it could snowball
>> and the European dream super state project is over.
Fixed it for you!
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Well, it seems Tsipras may have got it wrong.
We all know about the reliability of polls, but "Surveys say nearly 60 per cent of Greeks in favour of accepting terms of Eurozone bail-out deal."
(Telegraph - tinyurl.com/ojvu3wj)
But maybe it's going to be too late.
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I don't trust the polls but it must be really worrying as an ordinary Greek not being able to get at your money. And I guess it must feel like blackmail by the banks. You just wonder whether people will vote emotionally on the day rather than what they think (or know, or we consider) to be the "right & sensible" vote.
I expect the Greek media will have quite an influence on the outcome.
There is a perception that they are lazy and loath to pay any tax etc etc. I don't believe they are much different to ourselves in those respects, we have our fair share of lazy folk and people evading tax (- who has never paid a tradesman cash in hand?). Successive governments have misled them into the cushy way of life we perceive they have, just in the way our government have stacked up problems for our future generations with PFI and it's relations.
btw I've never been to Greece so this is idle speculation, I am just feeling a bit sorry for Mr Average Greek being caught up in this.
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>> I expect the Greek media will have quite an influence on the outcome.
I'm not sure the Greek's will trust their media because it's owned by the rich that are part of the original problem of borrowing, corruption, etc.
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>> And I guess it must feel like blackmail by the banks.
>> You just wonder whether people will vote emotionally on the day
>> rather than what they think (or know, or we consider) to be the "right &
>> sensible" vote.
Saying "NO" ("Ochi") to an ultimatum has a powerful emotional appeal to Greeks.
"Ochi Day" is a public holiday every year on 28th October.
It marks the alleged reply to the Ultimatum that Italy made to Greece on 28th October 1940, to allow Axis troops to enter the country from Albania.
Greece said "Ochi" and the Italians invaded, only to be hit by a Greek counterattack which forced the Italians to retreat back to Albania pursued by the Greek Army. The Italians desperately appealed to the Germans for help . . .and the rest is history.
Last edited by: Londoner on Mon 29 Jun 15 at 16:23
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After the fall of France and before the Russians entered the war there was a period when only two nations were still fighting Germany. Great Britain and Greece.
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>> After the fall of France and before the Russians entered the war
The Russians were always in the war, they just had a habit of changing sides a bit.
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"The Russians were always in the war, they just had a habit of changing sides a bit."
Rather a perverse interpretation of history.
The Russians were never part of any alliance with Nazi Germany; however, they did have a non-aggression pact with them (only admitted as late as 1989), part of which was an agreement to carve up various part of eastern Europe between the two powers. There were some negotiations about Russian entry into Axis, but Hitler's invasion of Poland from the west in 1939, followed rapidly by Stalin's invasion of Poland from the east, put an end to that, when Russian naivety as to Germany's true intentions was exposed. By 1941 Hitler was attacking Russia.
The whole issue of Russia's failure to realise Germany's deception - and the huge losses suffered by Russia* - informs much of Russian foreign policy towards the West today.
* Few in the West seem aware that approx. 35 million Russian servicemen were killed and approx. 20 million civilian casualties.
Sorry for rambling on - I get a bit carried away by history.
Last edited by: Observer on Mon 29 Jun 15 at 17:50
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>>Tsipras may have got it wrong
Given that Tsipras, in common with virtually any other politician in the world, wants to be in power more than anything else, I'd say he'd got it about right.
In fact, causing everything to come to a head without actually defaulting on purpose, may turn out to be rather clever.
You have to feel for the people though. Imagine living sensibly on your pension but needing it for food and bills, and then suddenly your pension isn't paid.
What do you do?
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The creditors hope that the people will turn on their minister.Don't think it will happen but to see a system collapsing around you must be very disturbing.
All we here is talk about money but there must be real hardship going on in Greece.They are a old wise race of people never mind what the mainstream media thinks of them.
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There is already issues with fuel supply in at least two places we visit. For one of them, a local person is reporting the fuel stations only take cash.... and therefore need to pay the cash into the bank to have money to arrange fuel delivery. Except they cannot pay the cash in for a week... so there's no fuel delivery arranged and therefore no fuel.
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The Greek government are now threatening to sue the ECB for now increasing the level of ELA funding to the Greek banking system. And might go to the top courts to get an injunction from the European Court of Justice to stop being thrown out of the Euro.
But they won't be thrown out... they would have to introduce a new currency for their banks to survive... They would be leaving the Eurozone and not thrown out as such.
Sounds like they are getting desperate at the top in Greece. And looking foolish.
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The Greeks got what they voted for and are now reaping the rewards of their something for nothing belief.
I have several friends who used to go to Greece every year and loved the people, their friendliness and the value for money.
However, when the Euro came in, the prices went up two or three fold or more and the Greeks blamed it on the new currency, rather than on them trying to pull a fast one.
As a result, all my friends went elsewhere for their holidays in places such as Mexico the year after onwards - they don't like being taken for a ride when they have supported a country's people for so long.
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I don't see why it all really matters. The Greeks will simply default, re-introduce the drachma, and start again. The creditors can't complain - they knew Greece was bankrupt when they poured in more money - they can't have been mad enough to think they were going to get it back - it was obviously a gift.
The real crunch will come when the Greeks have to start managing their economy properly, ie collecting taxes rather than just printing drachmas.
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Greece - Would you fly out to Greece Tomorrow - No FM2R
