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Continuing discussion.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 31 Mar 15 at 22:51
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Looks as though he was suffering from depression.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32081681
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>> Looks as though he was suffering from depression.
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32081681
Great. Now everybody with depression is a potential mass murderer.
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>> Great. Now everybody with depression is a potential mass murderer.
I'd fly with that.
Hmmmm let me rephrase that, I wont fly with that.
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So the BBC managed to find three more, one of which Zero mentioned. Navy bloke managed to find one which wasn't the pilot and didn't crash, but he tried.
Hardly an epidemic. Can anyone even work out what percentage of flights per year that might be?
And airlines are going to have two in the cockpit. What will that stop? Assume that on this Germanwings flight the pilot had managed to get back into the cockpit? Then what?
Do we think the Co-pilot would have said "ok guv, its a fair cop" and given up?
So what will a second person in the cockpit achieve?
Knee jerk reactions to such rare occurrences are unlikely to be helpful.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 27 Mar 15 at 11:47
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>> So what will a second person in the cockpit achieve?
Increased public confidence. ok as a safety procedure it may have holes in it, but it sounds like a feasible fix and it happens now. What more could the public want?
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It's more about managing the locked door than anything else.
It was always mandatory in US and at least one UK airline, Ryanair, had same policy.
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Zero is correct, it "sounds" like a fix.
And managing the locked door? How does it add to that then?
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If the pilot could get in (and others) then the co-pilot could have been overpowered. Yes they could overpower the other person but it's less likely they'd get away with this.
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>>If the pilot could get in.........
But then, so could bad people. The door has to be impassable without cockpit permission or it is pointless.
So if there are two people in the cockpit, then why wouldn't the bad one just dot the good one on the head? Surprise attack etc.
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>> >>If the pilot could get in.........
>>
>> But then, so could bad people. The door has to be impassable without cockpit permission or it is pointless.
>>
>> So if there are two people in the cockpit, then why wouldn't the bad one
>> just dot the good one on the head?
>> Surprise attack etc.
>>
The fire ax is to hand !
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>> And managing the locked door? How does it add to that then?
AIUI the CC member identifies the returning pilot through the spy hole in door and admits him. No faffing with codes etc plus she/he has an opportunity to see if he's got a gun to his head.
Not saying it's right or wrong, grey area of risk assessment and practicality. The rush by UK airlines (Monarch, Easy ec) to publicly embrace the policy from today suggests a degree of gesture and going with he flow.
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It's tough enough to imagine what state of mind you'd have to be in as a healthy, successful young person to want to kill yourself. But it's a whole lot more difficult to begin to understand why such a person would, in doing so, want to kill innocent others in the process. It's worse than weird.
I'm no expert in the human psyche but it seems to me that the commiting of atrocities upon others usually stems from some form of self gratification. Whether it be revenge, financial or power gains, sexual motivations, whatever. But to just randomly take all those people with you on your personal journey to oblivion seems deeply and utterly evil on the face of it.
I can't even begin to understand it.
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Apparently police found a torn torn up sick-note in his flat. He shouldn't have gone into work.
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>> He shouldn't have gone
>> into work.
NS Sherlock!
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>> Apparently police found a torn torn up sick-note in his flat. He shouldn't have gone
>> into work.
Emerging news (BBC radio overnight) says 'current' sick notes were related to eyesight issues rather than depression.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 29 Mar 15 at 09:04
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>> >> Apparently police found a torn torn up sick-note in his flat. He shouldn't have
>> gone
>> >> into work.
>>
>> Emerging news (BBC radio overnight) says 'current' sick notes were related to eyesight issues rather
>> than depression.
I would think he was pretty depressed about having eyesight issues.
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>>I can't even begin to understand it.
No more than you or I could even begin to understand what 'dark place' a person must be in to throw themselves in front of a train.
If Lubitz was, as is believed, being treated for depression, he may well have reacted adversely to any medication he was being prescribed, especially if he was being treated with a class of antidepressants known as SSRI's such as Prozac etc. etc.
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>> If Lubitz was, as is believed, being treated for depression, he may well have reacted
>> adversely to any medication he was being prescribed, especially if he was being treated with
>> a class of antidepressants known as SSRI's such as Prozac etc. etc.
There's a deal of speculation along those lines over on PPRUNE. It took me about a fortnight to settle down on Citalopram. One or two other colleagues, Citalopram seeming to be drug of choice for anxiety/depression in Civil Service, reported similar - in some cases to extent of needing to change to another drug.
The patient information leaflet is quite explicit about this, including possibility of suicidal ideas etc - though none of us got to that stage. If he was signed off during early stages of SSRI treatment then defying Doctor may have been particularly dangerous.
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>>The patient information leaflet is quite explicit about this, including possibility of suicidal ideas etc
If it is found that Lubitz was being treated with SSRI's, I could maybe begin to understand his actions, which were beyond-evil IMO. He was clearly of unsound mind, and in an awful, awful place, mentally. Not unlike the man who chopped the head off of a totally innocent woman in Tenerife a few years ago.
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>> If it is found that Lubitz was being treated with SSRI's, I could maybe begin
>> to understand his actions, which were beyond-evil IMO.
The more we hear about this the less it seems helpful to use words like evil.
Some speculation that he suspected he was about to be 'rumbled', hence demeanour change when Captain briefed for approach/landing a Dusseldorf.
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>>The more we hear about this the less it seems helpful to use words like evil.
I said beyond-evil, meaning there are no words to describe his actions.
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There's an interesting discussion right now on LBC Radio, about mental illness. You've already missed 15 minutes of it!
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>>Navy bloke managed to find one which wasn't the pilot and didn't crash, but he tried.
>>
Are you not clever enough to figure out that putting another employee in the cockpit to maintain a two person rule might be letting in someone who could incapacitate the remaining pilot with the door locked ? The deadheading engineer on FedEx 705 tried to kill both pilots.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 27 Mar 15 at 13:28
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>>>>Navy bloke managed to find one which wasn't the pilot and didn't crash, but he tried.
>
>Are you not clever enough to figure out that..............
I had no idea that was your point. That was why I asked "What's your point?"
You really are a pompous ass.
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>>You really are a pompous ass.>>
The supercilious often seem to resort to name calling.
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And I'm sure you have witnessed it many, many times. Not unlike my Grandfater who, as far as I am aware, never had an accident but saw 00s.
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A possibility of course but whilst by alway having two employees in the cabin you are doubling the risk of one othem being deranged you lessening the risk of one of them being able to maliciously assume control of the plane or lock out the other pilot. There is also the risk of a lone pilot being taken ill suddenly e.g a heart attack.
On balance therefore two in the cabin is better than one.
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A real two man rule requires at least two people to carry out any procedure. Not really feasable in an aircraft. The nearest you would get is the pilots monitoring each others actions and that does not always work.
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Of course it does not always work but on balance , like I said, two people in the cabin is better, as a rule, than one .
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>> Of course it does not always work but on balance , like I said, two
>> people in the cabin is better, as a rule, than one .
Double the chance that one will flip?
The assumption seems to be that when one pilot goes for a wee, the stand-in will be one of the cabin crew. It is probably easier for a terrorist (which is what all this locked door stuff is about) to get recruited as cabin crew than as a pilot.
And it still doesn't solve the problem of a suicidal pilot, who will probably not be stopped from crashing the plane by the presence of a watcher.
In fact, if you want to keep the cockpit door shut, there needs to be a toilet in the cockpit. It just needs to be extended to include the front toilet, which should be inaccessible from the cabin. Build another for the cabin, opposite if there is a need for one. Sorted, at the cost of about 3 seats.
The pilots can take their comestibles and drinks into the cockpit and stay there.
If that doesn't work, then maybe it's time to introduce the fabled cockpit dog - when one pilot needs to wee, the automatics are set and the dog goes on duty, ready to bite the other one if he touches anything.
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El Al have it sorted. There is a security guard with a gun on the flight deck
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What if he goes off on one?
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The pilot and copilot are armed as well. And there is an armed sky marshall. In fact your average El AL flight reads like the participants of the gunfight at the OK coral.
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>> The pilot and copilot are armed as well. And there is an armed sky marshall.
I've heard about the sky marshall, not heard about the aircrew being armed.
>> In fact your average El AL flight reads like the participants of the gunfight at
>> the OK coral.
>>
Well it's an odd one with so many armed onboard.
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>> In fact your average El AL flight reads like the participants of the gunfight at
>> the OK coral.
Of course there are the passengers too, with their special plastic pistols and the ammo stashed in their personal stereos to get through the Xray machines at the airport.
Flight marshals use special low-charge ammo to avoid piercing the outer skin of the aircraft. Probably quieter too, so the sleeping nippers don't wake up when all hell breaks loose in the First Class cabin.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 27 Mar 15 at 18:49
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>> I've heard about the sky marshall, not heard about the aircrew being armed.
More or less every El AL flight crew is reserve Israeli Airforce.
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Interesting segment on R5Live's Drivetime programme tonight. Discussion between the medicla spokesperson for BALPA (pilot's union) and a bod from Royal College of Psychiatrists. No revelations just a sensible and informed discussion about pilot heakth and dperession.
Should be on listen again.
Starts about 18:35.
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>>
>> >> I've heard about the sky marshall, not heard about the aircrew being armed.
>>
>> More or less every El AL flight crew is reserve Israeli Airforce.
>>
Quite possibly, I've no doubt. Where did you read about the aircrew being armed?
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My suggestion is that both pilots leave the flight deck at the same time (obviously sticking the autopilot on and asking ATC to mind the shop for five minutes) and then using the access code to get back in. :-P
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>> My suggestion is that both pilots leave the flight deck at the same time
No need my idea is to give them p**s bags and tablets for number twos. Seen people regularly do that for 8 hours. No need to leave the flight deck then.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 27 Mar 15 at 19:56
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>> No need my idea is to give them p**s bags
Your assumption is the pilot and co-pilot are both male. Might be likely but not guaranteed.
In fact, I'd say a woman would be less likely to do what this co-pilot did. So more women pilots?
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>> Your assumption is the pilot and co-pilot are both male.
No assumption at all.
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>> >> No need my idea is to give them p**s bags
>> Your assumption is the pilot and co-pilot are both male. Might be likely but not guaranteed.
Said this before. I was once in a slow old propjet freighter, whose name escapes me although it was used by armies everywhere, carrying a bunch of hacks into the deep Sahara against a headwind, six or seven hours of noise and vibration. The aircraft had a urinal designed for men, a sort of cup thing up against a bulkhead and fairly public.
The sole woman among the hacks couldn't manage it because of the curvature of the fuselage. The Algerian military crew fixed a sort of curtain arrangement for her up at the end of the loading ramp, but it wasn't much better. She was a ferocious woman and became increasingly unapproachable as the hours passed. When it landed at a remote desert airstrip, there were no buildings and no bog for anyone. You couldn't talk to her for two days without getting your head bitten off.
Funny in a way, but not for her, poor girl.
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>> slow old propjet freighter, whose name escapes me
A Hercules I now seem to remember. Had an enormous ramp that lowered down under the tail so that a couple of tanks could climb in.
It was lined down both sides with minimalist sideways-facing seats in tubular frames, and was equipped for paratroopers. The clips and links for their seatbelts jingled and jangled constantly. Very noisy and tiring... who'd be a squaddie in this day and age?
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>> A Hercules I now seem to remember. Had an enormous ramp that lowered down under
>> the tail so that a couple of tanks could climb in.
>>
>> It was lined down both sides with minimalist sideways-facing seats in tubular frames, and was
>> equipped for paratroopers. The clips and links for their seatbelts jingled and jangled constantly. Very
>> noisy and tiring... who'd be a squaddie in this day and age?
>>
The newer versions are little changed AC. Still the same 'sink' at the front and portaloo at the back. The fabric strips are as comfortable as they sound, I found the onboard pallets to be more comfortable or those well prepared would rig up a hammock from the roof.
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Didn't the toilets cause a corrosion problem in early 130s
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>> Didn't the toilets cause a corrosion problem in early 130s
>>
Not sure on that one, entirely possible though if there was a pipe prone to coming loose.
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It would not surprise me if Israeli crews were armed, I remember from some time ago some controversy about American pilots carrying guns but don't remember the outcome.
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>> It would not surprise me if Israeli crews were armed, I remember from some time
>> ago some controversy about American pilots carrying guns but don't remember the outcome.
>>
Great, so the nut-job doesn't even need to lock his colleague out of the flight deck now...
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>> Great, so the nut-job doesn't even need to lock his colleague out of the flight
>> deck now...
>>
It might have been post 9/11 knee jerk reaction,
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>> It might have been post 9/11 knee jerk reaction,
El Al might have tightened up after 09/11 but their stringent checks and armed Marshals etc were a response to hijacking in the seventies. When Leila Khaled and her accomplice attempted to hijack an El Al flight from Amsterdam to New York in September 1970 the acomplice was shot dead by a sky Marshal.
Khaled was detained and handed to UK authorities when plane made an unscheduled landing at Heathrow. She was released as part of a deal for hostages in a further hi-jack where a BOAC aircraft was diverted to a small airfield in Jordan.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 29 Mar 15 at 13:35
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>> >> It might have been post 9/11 knee jerk reaction,
>>
>> El Al might have tightened up after 09/11 but .........
Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I agree with your ^. I meant the knee jerk was the USA airline pilots carrying guns.
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>> Quite possibly, I've no doubt. Where did you read about the aircrew being armed?
I see to recall some story a few years back, when one of the aircrew was caught landslide in the UK with his sidearm that he had forgotten about.
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EL AL had separate security last week flying out of Grenoble Sunday morning.
Sorry. That's totally wrong. It was the regular Tel Aviv ski charter, sorry cannot remember the carrier, but I would have no hesitation flying with either that carrier or El AL. But the charter had to pass through a different security area to the rest of us with Monarch/ Easyjet/ Ryanair.
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Planes obviously carry more passengers and therefore higher fatalities in the event of accidents etc. But at the end of the day you only care about yourself. If you pop off then it is irrelevant to you whether your whole family is wiped out as well as you will never know.
Therefore why get knickers in a twist about pilots when you are more likely to be killed in a car crash being driven by someone you know? Or by a disease that it is in your own hands to minimise the risk of suffering from it?
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The recently revealed information that the co-pilot had a currently issued sick note, which he had concealed from his employers, seems to let them off the hook to a certain extent.
OTH, the fact that they were, presumably aware of his previous depression, makes one wonder why they allowed him back on regular duty without, as far as we know, a fresh psych. evaluation.
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"as far as we know" being the operative phrase.
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>> OTH, the fact that they were, presumably aware of his previous depression, makes one wonder
>> why they allowed him back on regular duty without, as far as we know, a
>> fresh psych. evaluation.
As was pointed out on the radio piece I linked upthread the general consequences of depression are relatively subtle incapacitation of complex thought processes. While most of us can work through or around that such debilitation is not acceptable in a pilot. Hence likely grounding until condition stabilised.
Sometimes of course it can be much more debilitating - the sufferer hides in their bed etc.
Nothing associated with depression would be identifiable as a precursor to his assumed action in crashing the plane.
Of we permanently ground every pilot with depression in his medical history a LOT of flights will be cancelled.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 28 Mar 15 at 11:39
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>> Of we permanently ground every pilot with depression in his medical history a LOT of
>> flights will be cancelled.
There are lots of unemployed but employable pilots, and plenty of well balanced people wishing to take up the role.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 28 Mar 15 at 11:49
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>> There are lots of unemployed but employable pilots, and plenty of well balanced people wishing
>> to take up the role.
If posts on PPRUNE are to be believed a fair number of those unemployed have their cards 'marked' for reasons associated with health. Training time from 'ab initio' to right seat is quite extensive too.
And plenty of balanced individuals have anxiety or depression in thier history.
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>> And plenty of balanced individuals have anxiety or depression in thier history.
The two do not compute.
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>> The two do not compute.
Odd view of the world from under that bridge?
You need to get out more.
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not really, consider the statement carefully. Its makes perfect sense.
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>> not really, consider the statement carefully. Its makes perfect sense.
You're not really ignorant enough to believe that so I'm forced to conclusion that you're being provocative.
And on that basis I'm not biting.
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>> >> not really, consider the statement carefully. Its makes perfect sense.
>>
>> You're not really ignorant enough to believe that so I'm forced to conclusion that you're
>> being provocative.
Ignorant?, its a perfectly rational and logical statement. Anyone who suffered from or has suffered from clinical depression that requires medical intervention, is by definition, not fully balanced. I'm not saying having depression is an issue or makes you less of a functional human being* but you can't claim, by definition, to be balanced.
*Unless you are a pilot obviously.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 28 Mar 15 at 17:51
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>>
>> You're not really ignorant enough to believe that so I'm forced to conclusion that you're
>> being provocative.
>>
Don't forget that he knows everything about everything, Psychiatry is only one of them. :)
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>> Don't forget that he knows everything about everything, Psychiatry is only one of them. :)
Cage door open - the Parrots escaped again. SQUAWK.
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>> If posts on PPRUNE are to be believed a fair number of those unemployed have
>> their cards 'marked' for reasons associated with health.
I did add "employable" its still there in your quote I see.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 28 Mar 15 at 17:21
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Have to add, that airlines in general are not really prepared to invest in the next generations of pilots
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 28 Mar 15 at 17:21
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On that note, Brompt. I wonder what proportion of the population suffers from depression at some stage in their working life?
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who knows,but there are plenty who haven't, which is the point when it comes to choosing staff in roles like pilots.
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My brother in law has had just about everything. A sore arm through to depression. Every summer in living memory he's been off for a month or two with something. And then, when he returns to work, he then claims the "lost" holidays he hasn't officially had because he was "ill".
Doesn't stop him playing golf, taking his Ducati to the Nurburgring, going on family holidays, going to the pub...
He works in the public sector where apparently this sort of thing is seen as normal.
Now that does my head in !
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Being off sick does not mean house arrest. I know what you mean but self certification periods have been reduced. Your BiL must have a gullible doctor.
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>> Being off sick does not mean house arrest. I know what you mean but self
>> certification periods have been reduced. Your BiL must have a gullible doctor.
>>
No doctor will turn round to a patient and call him or her a liar if they claim to have depression. It's not like a heart condition, there is no test for it. Or if there is, it's not one a busy GP would have the time to use.
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Lets just say he's normally got something for most of July and August...
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Lets just say he's normally got something for most of July and August...
Inverse seasonal affective disorder (SAD). Could be a line of research all on him :o)
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WLNG disorder more like
( Workshy Lazy Northern Git )
;-)
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>> My brother in law has had just about everything. A sore arm through to depression.
>> Every summer in living memory he's been off for a month or two with something.
>> And then, when he returns to work, he then claims the "lost" holidays he hasn't
>> officially had because he was "ill".
>>
>> Doesn't stop him playing golf, taking his Ducati to the Nurburgring, going on family holidays,
>> going to the pub...
>>
>> He works in the public sector where apparently this sort of thing is seen as
>> normal.
Sounds like a good crack, any jobs going?
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There's a queue, ( and I'm at the front of it )
;-)
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>> On that note, Brompt. I wonder what proportion of the population suffers from depression at
>> some stage in their working life?
Some numbers here from Mind.
www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/statistics-and-facts-about-mental-health/how-common-are-mental-health-problems/
The one in four in any one year for all types off MH problem is backed up by other sources.
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I wonder how many stress and depression related illnesses are in reality lead swinging? When I worked for a local authority it was quite a popular way of getting a few months off on the sick.
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>> I wonder how many stress and depression related illnesses are in reality lead swinging? When
>> I worked for a local authority it was quite a popular way of getting a
>> few months off on the sick.
Do you really believe that?
No depression amongst your friends or family that you can use as a marker?
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>> >> Do you really believe that?
>>
>> No depression amongst your friends or family that you can use as a marker?
>>
>>
Of course I believe it, because it was a readily admitted and oft recommended way of getting an extended break on full pay. I'm not disputing that there are many genuine cases of mental illness, but I am sure also that there are a good percentage that are not.
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There are many "illnesses" whether they be mental or physical, which seem to to have a far more incapacitating effect on those who work in an environment where taking extended sick leave is both tolerated and paid for.
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"In 2013, the percentage of hours lost to sickness in the private sector was lower than in the public sector at 1.8% and 2.9% respectively"
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_353899.pdf
Say no more...
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Hmm, interesting but not especially surprising madf.
electionsetc.com/2015/03/17/the-public-private-electoral-divide/
Add this in to the mix and you might reasonably conclude that public sector workers exhibited a a far greater propensity to be workshy lefties !
Who'd have thought it eh?
;-))
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Why say no more? In the private sector maybe one of the reasons is that getting dismissed is more likely than the public sector.
To me is does not prove that employees are less ill.
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>> "In 2013, the percentage of hours lost to sickness in the private sector was lower
>> than in the public sector at 1.8% and 2.9% respectively"
>>
>> www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_353899.pdf
>>
>> Say no more...
Given the bottom feeder employers who evade even their statutory responsibilities are all in the private sector the result is inevitably skewed.
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>> >>
>> Given the bottom feeder employers who evade even their statutory responsibilities are all in the
>> private sector the result is inevitably skewed.
>>
Ah, the old public sector good private sector bad chestnut again.
I'll just remind you that it wasn't the private sector who stood by doing nothing while children were being raped by organised gangs. The responsible bodies were protecting their own interests (By doing nothing controversial in those cases) like they always do, and that sort of culture spreads right through the sector - down to high levels of acceptable absence.
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When I worked in the public sector after leaving college the amount of bullying I experienced was phenomenal, it seemed par for the course and loads of good people were at the sharp end of incompetent managers who would get their own way by intimidation, bullying and threats.
When I left and moved to the private sector things were very different. There were still numpties for managers but they were not tolerated for long.
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>> Ah, the old public sector good private sector bad chestnut again.
It wasn't really but any comparison of absence rates based simply in raw figures per employee needs some correction to be statistically meaningful.
More relevant to this thread is the state of sick pay schemes in European commercial aviation. An unholy mix of zero hours contracts, casualisation/agency employment and 'flying pay' together with massive debts owed for training and type ratings mean sick pay for those at he pointy end is all too often poor/non existent. We think of those two missed shifts from being unable to pay bills as min wage territory - errr no!! All to easy for people to feel they have to work when they're not fit.
If you want to give yourself a fright about agency pilots etc look at the detail of the Helios Airways flight 522 - the one where the crew failed to presurize the cabin. The Captain, working through an agency is alleged to have previously flown for a UK airline where his performance gave cause for concern He was dismissed but only after he'd been shuffled between operational bases.
And then let's consider Zero's prescription that a diagnosis of depression means you're 'unbalanced' and leads to immediate disqualification from a Transport Licence. Do you think that means (a) people will willingly disclose such a condition or (b) they'll conceal, self medicate, see another Doctor privately and on QT, lying about their profession?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 29 Mar 15 at 12:36
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>> >> Ah, the old public sector good private sector bad chestnut again.
>>
>> It wasn't really but any comparison of absence rates based simply in raw figures per
>> employee needs some correction to be statistically meaningful.
I think one of things that warped the figures was the NHS it's such a big % in the public sector and they have stricter rules than say an office worker in a bank regarding sick days off.
>>
>> More relevant to this thread is the state of sick pay schemes in European commercial
>> aviation.
The US system I believe is even worse, especially the short haul stuff criss crossing america.
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Can't remember ever being bullied or persecuted in any government-connected job, but there was a very acerbic Aussie boss in a West End market research outfit I worked for, whose manner was certainly bullying. I didn't take kindly to that, but I knew his business partner socially (that was why I had joined the firm) which was embarrassing for all concerned.
In the end I simply resigned and was promptly headhunted by a corporation I'd done some work for. But I didn't give much of a damn anyway because I wasn't desperate for the salary, other strings to my bow. It must be hard if you have to have the job to support nippers and so on.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 29 Mar 15 at 12:58
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>> More relevant to this thread is the state of sick pay schemes in European
>> commercial aviation.
Spot on.
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EDIT- misquote/misplaced post.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 31 Mar 15 at 15:29
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What's the beef then? Don't airline pilots get sick pay?
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>> What's the beef then? Don't airline pilots get sick pay?
Impression is that it's highly variable and in some cases non-existent. Given the responsibilities the degree of casualisation, short term contracting, agency employment etc etc is frightening. Tolerance for those who go sick is limited in same way as other casualised employments. Conditions seem much closer to those I'd expect amongst min wage employers than professionals.
Furthermore, many will have borrowed heavily to pay for their training etc and live on a knife edge in terms of number of missed shifts between 'normal' and being unable to meet bills.
My source is extrapolation from posts on PPRUNE and the aviation press more generally. FF may be able to give specific examples.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 31 Mar 15 at 16:53
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>> What's the beef then? Don't airline pilots get sick pay?
If employed by legacy carrier or the older EasyJet contracts, yes.
Otherwise, no. EasyJet in particular force co-pilots to work through an agency using an umbrella company on a zero hours contract. Obviously no holiday pay or sick pay. As I said in an earlier post - how do you think you can fly across Europe for a tenner?
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Airline pilots on zero hrs contracts.? That beggars believe is this a tory thing or something.
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>> Airline pilots on zero hrs contracts.? That beggars believe is this a tory thing or
>> something.
No, if UK attempted to go alone on it carriers could move to other states (biggest LoCo carrier registers its planes in Ireland irrespective of where they operate).
It needs concerted action across the EU to stop it.
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"LoCo"??
Trendy wannabee slang for "Low Cost"??
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>> Trendy wannabee slang for "Low Cost"??
More of an acronym recognised in airline industry, transport policy etc.
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>> Airline pilots on zero hrs contracts.? That beggars believe is this a tory thing or
>> something.
No - its a Michael O'Leary thing.
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>> Airline pilots on zero hrs contracts.? That beggars believe is this a tory thing or
>> something.
>>
Nope, Ryanair started it and EasyJet etc followed quickly. The umbrella company is based in Dublin under an innocuous sounding name (think mine was "Alderney Port Authority Ltd" or something similar) due to low NI rates.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Tue 31 Mar 15 at 20:07
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Germanwings air crash - Volume 2 - CGNorwich
