www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32775396
JCB boss backs Britain leaving EU
The first of many ?
|
>> The first of many ?
No.
|
|
He certainly gives an extensive list of reasons why I should vote for leaving the EU.....
|
He has a point.. We could "survive" outside the EU... JCB would undoubtedly do well.
But "surviving and JCB doing well " does not mean that the rest of GB does not suffer a huge shock..
And there won't be a GB of course as the Scots don't want to leave the EU and will leave GB instead.. Strange that Ukippers don't mention either of those.. and they witter on about our proud traditions as well...
|
What he actually said, not included in the BBC story, was 'if we don't negotiate better terms for remaining in the EU we could have no fear of leaving'. Or similar such words.
I saw it as a veiled threat to the rest of the EU.
|
>>
>> I saw it as a veiled threat to the rest of the EU.
>>
Exactly. That's the real point of the exit campaign. The EU has become an unwieldy monster, unaccountable to anyone, run by a self-satisfied elite who seem determined to outdo themselves dreaming up more and more fatuous schemes and rules.
We'll only change it by threatening to walk out, and meaning it if necessary.
|
"The EU has become an unwieldy monster, unaccountable to anyone, run by a self-satisfied elite who seem determined to outdo themselves dreaming up more and more fatuous schemes and rules."
I see it as a bit more sinister than that - eventual European union on a political level is the goal. That is the philosophy - the United States of Europe as some kind of federation, which would by definition mean member states have no sovereignty. It's an idea that goes back at least as far as 1831 and it has put down some deep roots in some quarters.
It's the bureaucratic, inefficient, profligate nature of the beast that disgusts me as much as anything, though.
Last edited by: Observer on Mon 18 May 15 at 15:04
|
>> I see it as a bit more sinister than that - eventual European union on
>> a political level is the goal. That is the philosophy - the United States of
>> Europe as some kind of federation, which would by definition mean member states have no
>> sovereignty. It's an idea that goes back at least as far as 1831 and it
>> has put down some deep roots in some quarters.
Ah here we go, the old Franco German plot, blood line of Napoleon at work, only way they could win a war argument.
|
"... the old Franco German plot, blood line of Napoleon at work, only way they could win a war argument."
Leaving aside your typically abrasive tone when dealing with posts which you don't agree with, then, yes, issues like the need to avoid war with each other do come into it, which is why France and Germany were always lead players in the EU post WW2. Napoleon doesn't come into it.
The idea of a political union has been around on the Continent for a while - that's all I'm saying.
Last edited by: Observer on Mon 18 May 15 at 16:15
|
>> The idea of a political union has been around on the Continent for a while
>> - that's all I'm saying.
Think you will find several minors skirmishes got int the way since 1831 Political union was furthest from peoples minds.
|
>> The EU has become an unwieldy
>> monster, unaccountable to anyone, run by a self-satisfied elite who seem determined to outdo themselves
>> dreaming up more and more fatuous schemes and rules.
The only way you trade with the EU tho is to meet the rules. Leave and you still need to meet the rules, but have no input into them.
|
"The only way you trade with the EU tho is to meet the rules. Leave and you still need to meet the rules, but have no input into them."
Spot-on.
Some people think that's what we should do. And if the trade is sufficiently worthwhile to the EU it will have to take UK plc's input into consideration.
|
>> UK plc
AAAARRGH! The UK is a kingdom, state and country, not a sodding business enterprise. Only a myopic, thick salesman type would think it smart to call it that.
Shape up Observer or I'll send the boys round to do you over.
|
"Shape up Observer or I'll send the boys round to do you over."
That made me smile! (I've given you a green one.)
It was just shorthand (sloppy shorthand to you, probably, as an old hack) for "the UK as a trading country".
Calm down, dear!
Last edited by: Observer on Mon 18 May 15 at 16:45
|
>> Calm down, dear!
Grumble grumble (burp) mumble... God I need a drink...
:o}
|
>>God I need a drink...
Three loaves and five fishes will have to suffice.
//(*_*)\
Last edited by: Dog on Mon 18 May 15 at 17:12
|
"God I need a drink..."
That was nearly an hour ago, AC.
Are you feeling better yet?
I worry about you sometimes.
|
>> Are you feeling better yet?
It was only medium-sized and I still haven't finished it. Hewlett Packard hassles... Herself often has longish documents to print out, and the printer winds me up terribly, dodgy fonts, missing out words or parts of words, chewing up the paper, needing more ink in mid-print, all kindsa Scheiss.
The second document this evening, 18 pages, is co authored by an Indian geezer called Harsh Pant. A good name given the amount of harsh panting that's been going on in here. The other author is called Julie Super... sounds winsome don't you think?
All the gods be praised though, it's just finished printing in the right font and seems OK. Yee hah, glug glug, now where dat bockle...
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 18 May 15 at 18:58
|
>> Some people think that's what we should do. And if the trade is sufficiently worthwhile
>> to the EU it will have to take UK plc's input into consideration.
Why? You seem to think the EU need us more than we need them. What leads you to that conclusion.
|
"You seem to think the EU need us more than we need them. What leads you to that conclusion."
Norway and Switzerland have made their relationship with the EU work well and the rest of the world as a potential trading market is much bigger than the EU.
If the EU falls apart because Greece can't play its part the EU will get weaker anyway. Portugal is still struggling and some might argue that Cyprus, Ireland and Spain aren't out of the woods yet. That's an "if", of course.
There's a lot of mismanaged interdependence, however.
|
>>There's a lot of mismanaged interdependence, however.
Yes.
Trade, taxation and economic agreements, even labour agreements can work well and even be essential. I don't really think we need the rest, including the social interference, and we certainly don't need the currency.
|
>> "You seem to think the EU need us more than we need them. What leads
>> you to that conclusion."
>>
>> Norway and Switzerland have made their relationship with the EU work well and the rest
>> of the world as a potential trading market is much bigger than the EU.
Have they? Have you found out how much Norway have to pay to the EU for the privilege of being a trading partner of the EU, money they pay yet have no say in what goes on within?
As far as Switzerland goes, suggest you study the Bilateral agreements and see how much Switzerland has to accept int he way of EU rules to trade, yet again has no part in what those rules are.
In short, as I said, you trade with the EU you have to meet those rules, yet have no say in what the rules or terms are.
|
I don't disagree with anything you say here, Z. But it's a question of whether it's worth it for countries like Switzerland and Norway or not. I imagine they think it is.
And it's a similar question of whether it would be worth it for the UK if in a similar position.
|
>> I don't disagree with anything you say here, Z. But it's a question of whether
>> it's worth it for countries like Switzerland and Norway or not. I imagine they think
>> it is.
The good bergers of Switzerland have always wanted, tried to join the EU. The electorate wont let them. And now, when they are being forced to dismantle the banking secrecy laws, by the US mostly, they can see their main industry going down the pan.
>> And it's a similar question of whether it would be worth it for the UK
>> if in a similar position.
I can't prove that we would be worse off outside the EU, and I can't prove what this country would; have been like if we hadn't joined the EU, and more to the point nor can anyone else.
I can relate to personal experience of the UK since we joined the EU and for the most part, it has become a more prosperous, better place to live in nearly every respect, both culturally and economically. I can't say that would have happened outside the EU. Nor can anyone else.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 18 May 15 at 18:06
|
"I can't prove that we would be worse off outside the EU..."
"I can't say that would have happened outside the EU..."
Absolutely. There is no open-and-shut case here.
My present inclination is that we should get out because I'm exasperated by the bureaucracy, inefficiency and so on of the EU. But culturally I'm totally focused on Europe. I'm married to a foreign-born person; I'm a great fan of French culture and speak French well enough to get by; the last opera I went to, last week, was Król Roger by Szymanowski; my idea of an ideal holiday is driving through Italy - in fact, I've been on holiday to nowhere other than Europe. I love continental food and wine. I'm aware of how much the UK owes to Europe in the sphere of ideas and how our history is inextricably linked with it.
And yet...
|
Norway in effect acts in nearly every area of government as if it were a member of the EU. As the Norwegian government website says
"The EEA and other agreements with the EU shape domestic policies at most levels and in most areas of Norwegian society. It is therefore in our national interest to cooperate closely with the EU and to participate actively in policy debates at European level. In this way, Norway seeks to promote its interests and to contribute to a positive development in Europe."
www.eu-norway.org/eu/
Economic and political imperatives effectively enforce this policy. Whether it is worth the UK going though the painful and costly business of withdrawing from the EU only to have to mirror its actions without being part of any decision making process seems to me at least debateable.
|
>> In short, as I said, you trade with the EU you have to meet those
>> rules, yet have no say in what the rules or terms are.
>>
We -the UK - have no say in what those rules are.
The UK has never succeeded in changing any rule which it has tried to amend, or alter, to reflect out nation's interest.
|
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32775396
>>
>> JCB boss backs Britain leaving EU
>>
>> The first of many ?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-29708831
Clearly the staff sacked because of poor trading with the rest of the world might have something to say to Charlie.
|
You may like to read this article from 2012...
tinyurl.com/qb9842z
and wonder what might happen if the UK leaves the EU.
Well of course, the businesses concerned will NOT suffer.. They'll emigrate.
Strangely enough, I have raised the issue before with UKIP supporters and got no reply... I suspect they don't know much about financial markets or business.
Last edited by: madf on Mon 18 May 15 at 18:19
|
For my job, I visit companies all over the UK, about 150 a year for discussions that last all day.
Without fail all the exporters want to stay in the EU.
Without fail all of the large workforce employers want to stay in the UK because they can't get UK citizens to work for £12 to £20 per hour and look to the Czech Republic and Slovakia for labour.
Without fail all of the high tech engineering companies want to stay in the UK because they can't get skilled UK engineers and look to Germany, Poland and Italy for skilled employees.
From my notes, 85% of companies want to stay in the UK. Those that don't see some competitive advantage by being out of the EU, like being the dominant supplier within the UK and the importers being frozen out.
|
Even if UK leaves EU, it would be still possible to import worker from outside.
Plenty of non-EU workers come via work permit route.
I am sure in UK-outside-EU situation, it would still be very easy to bring EU workers.
Those who rejoice having access to "cheap" workers, be aware that when your children will grow up, they might get same "low wage" then.
The issue is having controlled immigration vs uncontrolled influx of people from EU.
|
It's not a case of having cheap workers, it is a case of people in the UK not wanting to work.
Companies don't want the paperwork involved with work permits etc. They want to be able to place and ad, get applications and interview good candidates.
|
|
Only anecdotal, but I know of a number of kids and a handful of grown-ups who have qualifications (and some who aren't) but cannot get into jobs. Maybe it's that they don't interview well, or some other reason, but it is grossly misleading to say that UK people don't want to work - the majority do.
|
I know - vaguely a few people who studied engineering and science and worked very hard. They are now very well paid... Specialists in fields where knowldege is king..
Look at the Labour Party leadership candidates - as an example only. ALL Oxbridge, ALL arts graduates..
And we want politicians to help attract more well paid jobs?
ROFL. They don't understand business let alone engineering.science so no chance.
My degree was physics. I was not good enough - only an upper second degree - so I earned a lot more as an accountant. Which says it all..
|
>>but it is grossly misleading to say that UK people don't want to work - the majority do.
Agreed. But that includes the people who actually are working. I am sure that the percentage of people who are not working and are able to work that actually want to and will work is dramatically more depressing.
|
>> Maybe it's that they don't interview well, or some other reason,
>>
I believe that many have poor communications also poor presentation skills.
Both my son and daughter were encouraged at an early age to communicate well ( and touch type correctly) .
Their track record shows how well this has paid off in many ways.
Both have always had decent jobs while still at school and have been "head hunted" several times since uni.
My daughter also lectures and teaches both in her current role and externally.
In her talks to sixth formers she does not beat about the bush and warns both parents and their children that the future career is not what parents want but what is best for the child.
I suspect quite a few youngsters finish up on a career path that really is not right for them.
|
"... it is grossly misleading to say that UK people don't want to work - the majority do."
That is probably correct. But a lot of British unemployed are choosy about what they will do. For example, Poles, Lithuanians etc. will work for hours picking soft fruit, veg. - field work, in other words - in all weathers. I've heard that if all the Eastern European workers went home, the price of fresh produce would shoot up in the supermarkets.
|
>> It's not a case of having cheap workers, it is a case of people in
>> the UK not wanting to work.
>>
>> Companies don't want the paperwork involved with work permits etc. They want to be able
>> to place and ad, get applications and interview good candidates.
>>
Place ad. Get good candidate. Dream on.
In our business (Small Construction work) £2,500.00 - £500.000.00 workers that 'Can do', Don't moan, Know what they're doing (are you getting the picture?) are like finding Rocking Horse Poo.
No it's not just me. I speak to loads of employers from the sub-contract bricklaying gangs to mid range operations and to a man, they all say much the same thing. The potential employees all know their rights, but are a bit vacant on their obligations.
As for the 'Furriners'. Some work well, most don't. Most don't speaka very good English until there's a fiver short in their wages and then, Good Lord.........Articulate is me.
Has LL made up his mind on that Bob Marley yet? Sun will be shining soon. MD
|
I'm not surprised that manufacturing/distribution firms employing large numbers of oompa loompas like the EU as a source of cheap labour. I'm not sure (by which I mean I'm not sure) how that benefits indigenous workers.
With a minimum wage of c £7 an hour, and a ready supply of labour at that rate from central and eastern Europe, there has to be a depressing effect on wages, which is a clear benefit for some employers.
It would not be good if cutting off or restricting the supply of cheap labour resulted in those firms being uncompetitive. On the other hand, do we really want the national finances to be reliant on a low wage economy?
Options may be limited.
The "engineer" thing is hard to pin down, it's a fairly broad label. My daughter is a Cambridge M.Eng. with a dozen years experience, and has a job she loves in an engineering consultancy; she earns probably 25% above the average wage for the region, but she could still have been earning more as an accountant without having to have been as bright.
|
>> I'm not surprised that manufacturing/distribution firms employing large numbers of oompa loompas like the EU
>> as a source of cheap labour. I'm not sure (by which I mean I'm not
>> sure) how that benefits indigenous workers.
>>
>> With a minimum wage of c £7 an hour, and a ready supply of labour
>> at that rate from central and eastern Europe, there has to be a depressing effect
>> on wages, which is a clear benefit for some employers.
>>
>> It would not be good if cutting off or restricting the supply of cheap labour
>> resulted in those firms being uncompetitive. On the other hand, do we really want the
>> national finances to be reliant on a low wage economy?
The Government can't afford a low wage economy.
Apart from the impact on tax take (nil tax on under £10k a year),, it PAYS Working Tax Credits - £24billion a year.
So effectively subsidising low wages and encouraging employers to cut wages - at no cost to the employee due to Tax Credits but at a gain to the business.
Really great economics. Way to go bust.
Encourages more low wage businessses to start up. Exactly what you really don't want.
Better to spend the money on education and grants to encourage hi tec industries.
I suspect that is where the famed "unknown" Conservatives '£12b spending savings will come...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 19 May 15 at 13:30
|
>>Better to spend the money on education and grants to encourage hi tec industries.
>>
I totally agree.
I seem to recall in the recent past " Education!, Education!, Education!."
IMO opinion this is the key.
In my yoof, kids could drift out of " so called education" and spend the rest of "life" on a boring production line in a factory or maybe sign up for the forces.
Today there seems to be very few of those options left.
"I can Txt M8 so wanna job" or else............i
|
The politicians are really hypocritical!
A few months ago it was all hands to the pump to prevent Scotland's exit from the Union.
Now of course they are happy to have a referendum on the UK leaving the EU.
What is good for the goose!?
|
>> What is good for the goose!?
>>
Caramelised apples, and a sausage and apricot stuffing. Red wine gravy.
|
|
Made my day AL. Still chuckling here.
|
>> Without fail all of the high tech engineering companies want to stay in the UK
>> because they can't get skilled UK engineers and look to Germany, Poland and Italy for
>> skilled employees.
>>
Interesting they should say that, all see from the other side is depressed wages and how poorly paid they are in comparison to say Germany. If as you say there is a shortage that shortage doesn't seemed to turned into an increase in wages in that particlur area of employment.
|
|
It costs a lot more to live in Germany, people forget that when comparing... Rarely do they do a "proper" comparison.
|
|
I'm sure, i think the point still stands with regards supply, demand and the impact on wages.
|
|
That's an interesting statement. In what way does it cost more to live in Germany? Seems about the same price wise to me as regards everyday living like food and tranport and housing is actually cheaper. Most cost of living indexes show the two countries to be quite similar.
|
Zippy said at 10.48 on Tuesday:-
>> From my notes, 85% of companies want to stay in the UK.
Zippy, is that a typo?
Did you mean EU?
Last edited by: Duncan on Wed 20 May 15 at 05:24
|
Brexit - Armel Coussine
