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Up here in sunny Scotland there are no shopping time restrictions. Some big supermarkets are open 24/7, some shops open normal weekday hours on a Sunday, some are shut. It has been thus for many years, I don't think anyone has a problem with this, as pensioners we avoid the shops at weekends but the people who work find the flexibility useful and the shops are usually busy. What is the big problem down there, religious pressure?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 11 Mar 16 at 01:31
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>> What is the big problem down there,
>> religious pressure?
>>
Selfish people who want to keep the weekend special.. for themselves.. without regard for those that don't mind either way.
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Selfish people who want to keep the weekend special.. for themselves.. without regard for those that don't mind either way.
Yup, they used to be called the Lords Day Observance Society, but are now, Day One
www.dayone.org.uk/
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>> What is the big problem down there,
>> religious pressure?
>>
Wages, overtime, management pressure to conform to some unreasonable pre-set norm. That sort of thing. Same as up there probably.
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Certainly doesn't bother me. Any shop I need on a Sunday is open, why further exploit poorly paid staff and deprive them of a day off with their families.
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Things seem to have changed quite a lot since I were a lad.
People seem to have forgotten the role trade unions had in the forties and fifties. They tried to set wages at what was called a 'living wage', over the screaming and yelling of employers who claimed they were being robbed blind.
Goodness it was fun, a laugh a minute, for an irresponsible observer. A little more serious for some perhaps, but irresponsible observers try not to get their knickers in a twist about that sort of thing.
All that veiled class war did absorb a lot of attention and a lot of energy. Perhaps it had to happen though. It's not over yet, and it's global these days.
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What about the National Living Wage. This is being introduced by a free market Conservative Government.
The Minimum Wage Act introduced in 1998 was opposed by a Conservative opposition party.
How ironic a right wing party is creating more red tape.
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>>How ironic a right wing party is creating more red tape.
Ironic in what way?
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Can our self employed and small businesses afford the 50p an hour rise in the National Living Wage.
It may sound a small rise but if our economy slows down ( growth in 2015 was 2.2%,in 2014 it was 2.9%) Therefore a slow down is taking place.
I have my doubts the National Living Wage and the Apprentice Levy is a burden a lot of small businesses cannot afford to deal with.
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Rubbish, they will pass the cost on as they do with other costs that vary like fuel.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 28 Feb 16 at 20:11
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Many of those who oppose Sunday opening hours for personal non-working reasons (time off with family, been working all week etc) still expect the public transport system; police, fire and ambulance services, hospitals and a wide range of retail outlets to be available to serve their own needs.
Sheer hypocrisy.
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So true Stuart and neither have they been in the position of a young family trying to save a deposit for that first house purchase or even a holiday.
I know many young couples with families where the husband works all week and the wife then works weekends in supermarkets to get a bit of financial security.
While not ideal, it does mean the young children get quality time with their Dads and promotes an attitude in their upbringing which says if you really want something, sacrifices have to be made.
Those who don't want to work at weekends for any reason, simply don't have to take that type of job. It's all about personal choices.
Pat
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I'm not sure opening hours on Sundays are an issue. They are open for quite a while anyway. I don't think many serious people are suggesting that all shops close on a Sunday, but that the hours remain the same.
Is there large amounts of pent up demand to shop at 9 am/pm on a Sunday?
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>> Many of those who oppose Sunday opening hours for personal non-working reasons (time off with
>> family, been working all week etc) still expect the public transport system; police, fire and
>> ambulance services, hospitals and a wide range of retail outlets to be available to serve
>> their own needs.
>>
>> Sheer hypocrisy.
The hospitals ec are needs. Shops are a want.
It makes a difference.
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Wants or needs, what's the difference?
Those who work on Sunday in this sector do so because they can, not because someone is forcing them to, so why do those who don't want to use that service have a problem with it?
Pat
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>> Those who work on Sunday in this sector do so because they can, not because
>> someone is forcing them to, so why do those who don't want to use that
>> service have a problem with it?
Do you really believe that, laws notwithstanding, employees in retail don't have to either work Sunday shifts or lose their jobs?
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No, of course not.....if they don't want to work at weekends they don't work in retail.
It's called making informed choices.
Pat
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As a boy, I never had a "family Sunday" The old man was a train driver, trains ran on Sunday, Sunday was double time money, double time money mean Christmas dinner on the table (ironically in those days trains ran on Christmas Day too, so our Christmas dinner was flexible)
Jump forward a few years and I marry a children's nurse, children dont magically get better on Sundays, so all in all Sunday has never really been a "family day" for me over my life.
HOWEVER
I think, down south we have just about got it right. All the stores are open for a restricted period, the small local shops are open for stuff you forget, so wages are being earned for those that need to*, the public is being served, some leisure time is preserved, all in all I think its a really good compromise.
*I bet double time is a thing of the past tho.
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>> No, of course not.....if they don't want to work at weekends they don't work in
>> retail.
>>
>> It's called making informed choices.
I think that would cover most people who work in shops and the such like. Not sure there's many that work in a shop but don't want to work weekends?
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>> I think that would cover most people who work in shops and the such like.
>> Not sure there's many that work in a shop but don't want to work weekends?
I imagine that there are lots of people who work in shops that would prefer not to work weekends, especially Sundays.
When there was no Sunday opening, shops were largely staffed by full timers. It isn't just the hours that have changed. Many if not most chains now have more part time than full time staff, and as Zero says, overtime rates are largely a thing of the past. Retail is a rubbish job now for many of the people who work in it, low pay, unsocial and varying hours, and yes they DO choose to do something else when they can - staff turnover is commonly around 50%.
I was working for a retail multiple when Sunday opening came in. The big shops all wanted it, the main exception being JLP which didn't open on Sundays for quite a long time after the change - it is of course "owned" by its staff. It was another kick in the teeth for small shops, to the benefit of the big ones.
I see no need to extend Sunday hours, and I'm still not sure it was a good idea to have Sunday opening in the first place, in terms of the quality of life for many.
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>> I imagine that there are lots of people who work in shops that would prefer
>> not to work weekends, especially Sundays.
>>
Right fair enough, more of a question really. I don't know much about shops and how they work.
>> I was working for a retail multiple when Sunday opening came in.
What's a retail multiple?
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>>What's a retail multiple...
A retailer with a large chain of shops, EG - Next, Sainsburys, PC World etc
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>> >>What's a retail multiple...
>>
>> A retailer with a large chain of shops, EG - Next, Sainsburys, PC World etc
>>
Cheers.
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>> I see no need to extend Sunday hours, and I'm still not sure it was
>> a good idea to have Sunday opening in the first place, in terms of the
>> quality of life for many.
>>
The idea of 'retail' is surely to fit around your customers?
When you go to a Greek island for a holiday and spend all day on the beach, then have an evening meal in a taverna.... then go for a walk back to your apartment or whatever, there'll be a load of shops open..... because that's when the tourists are strolling past.
The staff get employed to ensure the customer is satisfied... don't they?
So if a customer wants to buy things on a Sunday, open on a Sunday.
If the religious want to keep their Sunday special, that's fine... but don't inflict it on the rest of us.
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>> If the religious want to keep their Sunday special, that's fine... but don't inflict it
>> on the rest of us.
>>
The hypocrisy is that Im sure many of those types would think nothing of nipping down the shops to buy a packet of bisto if they discovered they had run out.
Or would fill up with petrol, or have the Mail on Sunday delivered etc etc etc.
Last edited by: Ian (Cape Town) on Mon 29 Feb 16 at 09:36
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Bisto? Good grief, man that is just disgusting and deserves a frownie :-)
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>> Bisto? Good grief, man that is just disgusting and deserves a frownie :-)
Try American "gravy" you'd kill for Bisto. Actually thats probably why the yanks go round killing one another, its the Gravy they are forced to eat
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>> Try American "gravy" you'd kill for Bisto
American 'gravy' is just tasteless molten fat. Frightful stuff.
Aaaaaah... BISTO! (holds nose in air). Remember those fifties ads?
I love a bit of msg. Cans of Bisto 'bouillon' get used here, by me anyway.
From memory, original Bisto gravy granules were tasteless boring brown muck.
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It can be disguised as decent gravy though. A spoonful of Lea and Perrins and a few turns of a black pepper grinder makes a heck of a difference.
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>> A spoonful of Lea and Perrins and a few turns of a black pepper grinder makes a heck of a difference.
And a spot of salt Humph... yes, granted. But there's no real dose of msg there.
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I uses supermarket branded chicken gravy granules every Sunday when I cooks roast chicken. My trick is to use half boiling water, half juices from the roasting tin (well, terracotta oval shaped lidded roaster thing) and add some dried sage and thyme. That elevates the near-tasteless to something palatable whilst still being a shortcut, lazy timesaving thing.
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>> The hypocrisy is that Im sure many of those types would think nothing of nipping
>> down the shops to buy a packet of bisto if they discovered they had run
>> out.
>> Or would fill up with petrol, or have the Mail on Sunday delivered etc etc
>> etc.
I don't think that's hypocritical, any more than is someone who has a comfy 9-5, Monday to Friday job himself, or is retired for that matter, expecting others to be rostered onto constantly varying unsocial hours at £7 an hour so that he can go to the shops when he wants.
I certainly do nip to the shop for odds and ends on Sundays, usually the nearby farm shop. I'm very happy to spend a bit there when I can if they are offering what I want - I don't think they have a choice about opening all weekend if they want to stay in business.
I draw the line at having the MoS delivered, mind.
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>> someone who has a comfy 9-5
Mine's not just comfy, but has a good gearbox, too.
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> So if a customer wants to buy things on a Sunday, open on a Sunday.
>>
Shops are open on Sundays already. Do you think there's a demand for longer opening hours on a sunday?
>> If the religious want to keep their Sunday special, that's fine... but don't inflict it on the rest of us.
>>
You don't have to be religious to not want to have shops open for longer on Sundays.
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>> Shops are open on Sundays already. Do you think there's a demand for longer opening
>> hours on a sunday?
A shop should be able to open when it wants to, to suit the demand of its customers. It should not be constrained by old fashioned thinking that was related to religion.
>> You don't have to be religious to not want to have shops open for longer
>> on Sundays.
>>
Why would anyone non religious want to do that?
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Do only god-botherers value time off when their families are also free, or think other people might be entitled to similar consideration?
How much more shopping does anyone really need to do, anyway? It's unlikely customers would spend more - so revenue per pound of staff cost would fall.
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>> A shop should be able to open when it wants to, to suit the demand
>> of its customers.
Is there a demand, do you wish to shop, say on a sunday night?
>> >> You don't have to be religious to not want to have shops open for
>> longer
>> >> on Sundays.
>> >>
>> Why would anyone non religious want to do that?
>>
Many reasons, people on this thread say, think the laws now are right( me included). I don't think anyone has come at it from a religious angle. Many prefer the day be 'special/different' without reference to religion.
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>> Is there a demand, do you wish to shop, say on a sunday night?
>>
Our 24/7 supermarkets only have the overnight staff who would be there for restocking anyway so even if there are few customers the cost is negligible.
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>> Is there a demand, do you wish to shop, say on a sunday night?
>>
You are missing the point.
I think the shop should be able to open when it wants to, presumably to suit its customers.
I personally, have never ever shopped at night and shop very little anyway. It's not about me or those that wish Sun to stay special, it's about the freedom of those who wish to open and those that wish to shop.
Those that wish to not shop on a Sun can refrain... and those that wish to not work on a Sun are perfectly at liberty to seek a job that has no weekend working.
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Some of those people have such a job now, which you propose to take away from them.
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Can you explain that please WdeB?
Pat
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Yes, Pat. Suppose a retailer under WP's rules decides to open later on weekday mornings and stay open all day Sunday instead. Suddenly the staff - maybe parents who appreciate being able to work school hours - are under pressure to shift to working Sundays. Suddenly the weekend visit to distant grandparents, or meeting friends for Sunday lunch, is no longer possible. WP's simplistic answer is 'find another job'; I don't think that's fair.
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In the fashion industry more than half of all sales are now online ( there's the basis another discussion re bricks and mortar retailing and its future of course ) but the interesting thing is that most of those sales take place in the evenings and at weekends. No great surprise really when you consider that to be cash rich you often have to be time poor.
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I can think of nothing worse than going shopping on any day of the week and do all of mine online, but I still think everyone should have a choice as some people enjoy it.
Naturally, most of my online shopping is done between 2am and 5am too!
Pat
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>> I personally, have never ever shopped at night and shop very little anyway. It's not
>> about me or those that wish Sun to stay special, it's about the freedom of
>> those who wish to open and those that wish to shop.
Theres a third group, those working in the said shops.
and those that wish
>> to not work on a Sun are perfectly at liberty to seek a job that
>> has no weekend working.
>>
If life were so simple.
I suppose it's one of those things though. A different set of priorities as it were, from mine to yours.
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>> Theres a third group, those working in the said shops.
A shop is there to serve it's customers, that's its reason for existing.
It then employs people to serve those customers.
If customers wish to attend on a Sunday, then staff are needed.... or do you think the shop should work around the staff rather than the customer?
>> If life were so simple.
You know and I know it isn't. However, if you need the job... so be it.
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>> If customers wish to attend on a Sunday, then staff are needed.... or do you
>> think the shop should work around the staff rather than the customer?
>>
I think there's a balancing act and the gov plays it's part in many types of selling things. Alcohol for example, it balances pure market with a wider society need and demand. Some subtle and not easily defined, granted, however it controls and regulates. I know licencing laws changed, howver there are still controls it's not a free for all.
Now I'm not saying buying some clothes in the middle of the night is the same as buying a crate of beer, but they are both examples of the gov controlling things for the betterment of the public or at least what it percieves to.
>> >> If life were so simple.
>>
>> You know and I know it isn't. However, if you need the job... so be
>> it.
A fatalistic view I think. Protections are place to (try) and ensure that it's not so black and white. In this case having to work extended hours on a sunday.
Overall in the case of extending sunday trading hours my concerns more lie with those likely to end up working rather than people wishing to buy things. Fair to say you're the other way around?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 29 Feb 16 at 17:54
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>> Why would anyone non religious want to do that?
A social well being sort of thing? Is a completely unfettered 24/365 economy something we need?
Sometimes government needs to show the market who is boss.
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>> >> Why would anyone non religious want to do that?
>>
>> A social well being sort of thing? Is a completely unfettered 24/365 economy something we
>> need?
>>
>> Sometimes government needs to show the market who is boss.
The market, like always, will settle down after lots of swings left or right. Tesco is already reducing opening hours in lots of stores, so despite all the demands to shop when you want, the shopper is not actually flocking to the idea.
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"If the religious want to keep their Sunday special, that's fine... but don't inflict it on the rest of us." ....but it's OK to inflict your requirements on those not wanting it?
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>> "If the religious want to keep their Sunday special, that's fine... but don't inflict it
>> on the rest of us." ....but it's OK to inflict your requirements on those not
>> wanting it?
Those 'not wanting it' can avoid the shops, can't they? How selfish is it to think "I don't want it, so everyone else will have to conform to that thinking as well".
They aren't 'my requirements' either, I rarely physically shop, just the odd loaf of bread and/or a paper.. all other shopping is done online, inc grocery shopping.
My point is, in the 21st century, a shop should not be prevented, by law, from opening if it wishes to.. just because someone with a narrow point of view thinks that way.
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>> My point is, in the 21st century, a shop should not be prevented, by law,
>> from opening if it wishes to.. just because someone with a narrow point of view
>> thinks that way.
As has been pointed out already there's broad social perspective point of view that says unfettered opening is a bad thing. Doesn't stop your local store keeper selling you a paper or a pint of milk. It makes the day different by stopping the big stores being open longer than current 6 hours.
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>> As has been pointed out already there's broad social perspective point of view that says
>> unfettered opening is a bad thing. Doesn't stop your local store keeper selling you a
>> paper or a pint of milk. It makes the day different by stopping the big
>> stores being open longer than current 6 hours.
>>
So it's right for some people to think as you do, when you know others do not... and.. this prevents shops opening longer on a Sunday... in the hope that the time is used for families and the greater social good?
What about the people that would wish to work and up their pay and those that wish to shop? So they don't count?
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>> So it's right for some people to think as you do, when you know others
>> do not... and.. this prevents shops opening longer on a Sunday... in the hope that
>> the time is used for families and the greater social good?
I guess the caring sharing "people person" Westpig is off duty today?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 29 Feb 16 at 18:18
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>> I guess the caring sharing "people person" Westpig is off duty today?
>>
people person
noun informal
a person who enjoys or is particularly good at interacting with others.
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WP, it isn't really a choice for many shops (and therefore for their staff) when when their competitors do it. It's a lowest common denominator thing.
Perhaps I am just a do-gooder, but I am convinced that Sunday opening is one of the things that has reduced the quality of life for many.
And then there's all the traffic. Actually the French for once had a good idea when they banned most HGVs from the roads between 10pm Saturday and 10pm Sunday:)
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Nothing to do with religion, WP. I'm an atheist, thank God.
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Not everyone can make an "informed choice" about where they work, without wishing to do anyone down those with few qualifications or who want to do part time often end up working in retail because that's pretty much the only place they can get work. Plenty of school leavers didn't choose to work at Sports Direct or Tesco on the checkouts at minimum wage on zero hours contracts, it's just the only place they were able to get work when they needed it. And once your day is taken up working for a living it can be quite hard to find the time off to either educate yourself better or find the time off to attend interviews for CEO roles.
I do realise of course that there are many more who choose to work in retail.
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>> It's called making informed choices.
>>
>> Pat
The discussion was specific to Sunday, as are the legal protections being circumvented. Saturday is a different issue; it was always a full day in retail.
And as Smokie points out informed choices are not always available.
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>>You don't have to be religious to not want to have shops open for longer on Sundays<<
So just don't use them on a Sunday, it really is that simple.
>>And as Smokie points out informed choices are not always available<<
They are even if it's only a simple take it or leave it choice.
Many are citing youngsters unable to get other work. Most youngsters in this area prefer the Macdonalds antisocial shifts to working in the fields cutting cabbages and there's the rub....it's only daylight shifts in the field!
At that age their not making a lifetime career choice, just hopefully a good grounding for work and discipline.
The thing that amazes me is how much people who don't work on Sundays worry about those who do, and how little those who work on Sundays worry about doing so.
There's something seriously wrong there.
Pat
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>> >>You don't have to be religious to not want to have shops open for longer on Sundays<<
>>
>> So just don't use them on a Sunday, it really is that simple.
Not really the point i was making. I was coming at it from the other side.
>> The thing that amazes me is how much people who don't work on Sundays worry about those who do,
Who do think is doing that?
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As soon an anyone floats the idea of extending Sunday opening hours Sooty we always get the 'do-gooders' who think it shouldn't happen.
Most of who don't work on a Sunday anyway and probably don't even know anyone who complains about doing so.
Pat
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>> As soon an anyone floats the idea of extending Sunday opening hours Sooty we always
>> get the 'do-gooders' who think it shouldn't happen.
>>
Not sure what 'do-gooder' in this context means, someone who disagrees with you?
>> Most of who don't work on a Sunday anyway and probably don't even know anyone
>> who complains about doing so.
>>
You mean some people on here?
Do you have to have an opinion/input?
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>> Not sure what 'do-gooder' in this context means, someone who disagrees with you?
>>
No, not disagrees with me personally, I mean the media who always stir up the idea that 'people' are being 'forced' to work on a Sunday.
>> You mean some people on here?
>>
No, I don't. Do stop trying to make this a personal thing Sooty, I mean it in exactly the same context as all of the other posts on here, as a general thing.
......and don't worry, if I was pointing the finger at you personally I would certainly say so!
Pat
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>> No, not disagrees with me personally, I mean the media who always stir up the
>> idea that 'people' are being 'forced' to work on a Sunday.
Some people here seem to agree with them, I think there are people who do work on sundays but don't want to see any extension of trading hours. I think they are right, the trading hours that we have now seem right to me.
>> No, I don't. Do stop trying to make this a personal thing Sooty,
I wasn't trying to make anything personal, just trying to understand who/what you meant as it seemed vague to me reading it.
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Sorry Sooty, I will try to be a little more direct....but that may be a bad thing!
I feel strongly that the people who disagree with them have the option of not using them.
By the same token the people who work weekends have the option of not doing so if they don't like it.
I also think the people complaining fit in neither of these categories and that's what I have a problem with.
People (in general) should stop getting protective and offended on other peoples behalf.
They really are quite capable of doing that for themselves if they really feel that strongly about it.
......and the people getting offended for them are never fully aware of the circumstances leading to it.
Pat
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But if one considers "Zero hour" contracts. One could equally say then that if one didn't like them, then one simply shouldn't sign them. However, the response would probably be that nobody has a choice because so many other people *will* sign them.
I suspect that the same could be said about Sunday working - you may not wish to, but so many will that you have little choice but to agree or lose your job.
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As mentioned above, I don't really give much thought to what day of the week it is if there's work to be done, it gets done. If there isn't or it can wait, I'll take time off. Can't remember ever working as few as 40 hours in any week so no guilt here, on the contrary, I'm put upon in my opinion, always have been, people don't understand you know, it's really not fair...
;-)
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>> As mentioned above, I don't really give much thought to what day of the week
>> it is if there's work to be done, it gets done. If there isn't or
>> it can wait, I'll take time off.
That is the nature of your job, you have to admit tho that there are other jobs that are not like that, i.e. attendance is mandatory, work to be done or not, they can't time shift the work around to give them best leisure time.
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>> that nobody has a choice because so many other people *will* sign them.
>>
>> I suspect that the same could be said about Sunday working - you may not
>> wish to, but so many will that you have little choice but to agree or
>> lose your job.
>>
I reiterate >>They really are quite capable of doing that for themselves if they really feel that strongly about it.<<
If enough people felt that strongly.....Obviously, they don't.
Pat
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I presume that you have no use for unions, Pat? You believe that unions should not now and never should in the future exist within the trucking industry?
Because people will just say no if they don't want to do something.
ditto I presume that transport managers browbeating truckers into driving too long / fast or in bad weather is no issue, because they would simply say no?
In fact, there is very little need for any legislation protecting workers, because they can just say no?
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>>You believe that unions should not now and never should in the future exist within the trucking industry?<<
Absolutely right Mark, the sooner any worker learns to grow a backbone and speak for themselves the better.
Truckers, as you call them, will always be browbeaten into doing things they shouldn't until they do that.
If I was able to manage it, it really can't be that hard, can it?
I lived and worked through the Haulage strike, the coalminers strike and paid my union dues because I wouldn't have got into the docks or any large firm if I hadn't......there's a good example of freedom!
When a pig headed boss who never wanted a female driver, but didn't manage to break me with handball loads on a flat trailer, sacked me for not carrying 56lb bags (22tons of them) off my trailer and into a barn alone, the union backed him.
They said as I was single and didn't have either a mortgage or a dependant family I should go as opposed to the last man in.......because the 'Boss' insisted he had to lose one driver.
He was also a big benefactor of the Union.
That was the point I learned to stand on my own two feet and fight my own corner.
Never forgotten it, and never will.
Pat
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>>
>> I reiterate >>They really are quite capable of doing that for themselves if they really
>> feel that strongly about it.<<
Pendant corner.
I think that is an iteration, not a reiteration.
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With the greatest of respect, B****cks Duncan:)
Pat
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>> Sorry Sooty, I will try to be a little more direct....but that may be a
>> bad thing!
>>
Not with me it's not ! Be as direct as possible.
>> By the same token the people who work weekends have the option of not doing
>> so if they don't like it.
As has been mentioned, I don't think it's black and white for many.
>> I also think the people complaining fit in neither of these categories and that's what
>> I have a problem with.
Extended trading hours don't effect me, although I still work weekends. Nevertheless I don't see a change in the law as good thing.
It's not a case of getting offended on other people's behalf but you can support and agree with people even if it has no effect on one's self.
>> They really are quite capable of doing that for themselves if they really feel that
>> strongly about it.
More in general terms, but not everone is no.
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>> I feel strongly that the people who disagree with them have the option of not
>> using them.
I'm against any further extension of Sunday shopping. Not though the religious etc sense on the right or wrong of working on the Sabbath (to which don't shop if you don't like it is a partial answer). My view is that Sunday should remain to some extent special and that people working in (eg) retail at least have the certainty of being home and families together for part of the day.
IIf you look at those bits of the UK like the Western Isles where Sabbath observance is still strong Sunday remains quite different. It's beginning to break down though, even Stornoway and Tarbert have Sunday ferries. When (if) the shops open too then the impact will not be something to be avoided my the 'choice' of staying home on Sunday.
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Factually it may be correct to say that take it or leave it is a choice but if you have no job and no income and you need one (and most people do) then you take whatever is offered. Which in many cases is limited to something in retail, or something else with less than ideal conditions (I mentioned zero hours contracts already).
It's not much of a choice is it? Cabbages v. burger flipping. I bet the cabbage farmers don't pay a lot and that's seasonal surely so not a lot of use if you need a year round income. And I would have thought that most youngsters would prefer neither of those as a career.
As you've demonstrated on many occasions Pat, and with all due respect, you don't have to have experienced something yourself to have an opinion on it.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 29 Feb 16 at 14:08
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>>you don't have to have experienced something yourself to have an opinion on it.<<
Exactly, but by the same token you don't have to use a shop on a Sunday if you don't agree with the principle of it being open.
Pat
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The thing that amazes me is how much people who don't work on Sundays worry about those who do, and how little those who work on Sundays worry about doing so.
Pat - nail, head. Many other things are just the same. I was 'told off' for allegedly using the incorrect/wrong terms to describe those with a disability on a web site. I have the aforementioned disability, the complainant is able bodied and as far as I know, no person with a disability has complained. The page in question does have a link to my email too.
The same is true of LBGT issues and those of race. The days of upsetting minority groups through bad wording are mostly over, and most of the 'complaints' just come from the PC brigade who think everyone takes umbrage over the slightest slight.
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It's one thing that always bugs me SP.
Much like the people who wanted to be able to use their local pub without breathing in smoke.
Where are they now and why has their local closed down?
Because most of them never used the pub anyway and prefer to buy cheap supermarket booze to drink in their smoke free home!
........Ah, hang one, they do come to the pub on a lovely warm summers day, and sit outside and moan about the smoke;)
Pat
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>> Much like the people who wanted to be able to use their local pub without
>> breathing in smoke.
>>
>> Where are they now and why has their local closed down?
Yoo hoo. I was in my still-open local enjoying a smoke free pint just this weekend.
Long live the smoking ban.
I think the decline in pubs though is more down to cultural changes - youngsters want the noisy booze warehouses (and smoking is becoming vanishingly rare amongst the young, thankfully), and with the advent of families splitting child care between two working parents the days of Dad popping into the pub on the way home every night are over. Add in drink driving becoming thankfully socially unacceptable and you're a long way from just the smoking ban being responsible.
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Smoking is banned in bars and restaurants here although I guess its less of an issue because the weather is always good.
I smoked, I don't object to smoke, in fact I rather like the smell and have many friends, and a wife, who smoke.
I would never have campaigned for smoking to be banned in pubs, and still think it ought to be the choice of the pub.
Having said that, pubs are SOOOOO much nicer now that they are smoke free. And whilst it may not have increased my attendance, it has most certainly made a difference to how often my Mother goes.
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Odd really, I used to enjoy a pint and a cigarette inside or outside. But since I gave up smoking I've lost my taste for beer too. It's just too wet without tobacco and pork scratchings don't do it for me.
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But
>> since I gave up smoking I've lost my taste for beer too. It's just too
>> wet without tobacco and pork scratchings don't do it for me.
>>
Well it is a liquid, not many dry ones about ;)
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>> Having said that, pubs are SOOOOO much nicer now that they are smoke free.
That's true, I forget how unpleasant it was until I go overseas where it's still legal. The difference is huge in how pleasant an experience it can be.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 29 Feb 16 at 15:56
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Passing through Sarajevo airport last week, the stench was remarkable. Smoking allowed in the restaurant area - which, being a small airport, is the only place you can sit and wait. The missus, an ex-smoker, went and sat outside in the rain rather than put up with it.
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>> most of them never used the pub anyway and prefer to buy cheap supermarket booze to drink in their smoke free home!
>> ........Ah, hang one, they do come to the pub on a lovely warm summers day, and sit outside and moan about the smoke;)
>> Pat
There are more and more of them about Pat. I hesitate to call them sanctimonious wimps though. They just don't know what the real world, or most of it, is really like. Just ignorance really.
No one has to like tobacco smoke. Very few people do. I don't. But we are addicts innit?
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We are AC, but it's strange how often we are joined outside, or in a smoking shelter by non smokers!
Could it be they like the company?
Pat
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>> Could it be they like the company?
My OH, a non-smoker, told me she always joined the smokers during work breaks, because they were more interesting people.
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>> >> Could it be they like the company?
>>
>> My OH, a non-smoker, told me she always joined the smokers during work breaks, because
>> they were more interesting people.
Not because they weren't doing any work?
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In this neck of the woods, the Sunday trading laws used to be crazy.
You could buy cigarettes, but no soap. Girly mags, but no books - not even the bible!
No cinemas were open, nor sports events allowed to take place.
The booze laws were silly - no booze unless you had a meal.
The meal could be a plate of chips - order, pay, get receipt THEN you could have a beer.
So the same plate of chips/curry and rice/whatever was served, legal requirements met, plate removed, shoved under bar for the 'next' diner.
Our local pub had a curry which was cling filmed at close of business, shoved into the freezer, and defrosted the next Saturday night. For weeks and weeks!
Until some drunkard ate it.
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In my two most recent retail posts, Sunday working was part of the job. As was Bank Holidays such as a Good Friday, Easter Monday etc. normal rates of pay applied ie minimum wage in one, 50p an hour over minimum in t'other.
I enjoyed the jobs, it was a 20 minute walk to both, and I was happy to take my days off midweek. Having said that, how anyone could be expected to pay a mortgage or bring up a family on those wages forget it. All of my colleagues, with no exceptions, were either young single people living at home or older people whose mortgages were paid off, or who had a partner in a higher earning job. The big winners seemed to be the landlords... In a smaller retail business, say up to ten full time and part time employees, paying an extra few pounds an hour would not affect the viability of the business, although I can only speak as I saw.
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>> Until some drunkard ate it.
I think I have had that curry in the past
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I can't really relate to 'working hours' all my life I've worked when I had to, not as a function of day, date or time. Yesterday was my first whole day off in 3 weeks.
Today, there's stuff to do but I'm not all that busy, the rest of the week though will consist of 4 consecutive 16+ hour days with lunch being a sandwich on the run. ( if I'm lucky )
No extra pay either. Even my contract says something like hours as required.
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I went from a shift environment to an office hours one and few people could understand why I was perfectly happy to work at the weekends and have time off in the week. For me, a no brainer, some of our normal work done on a Sunday morning took a fraction of the time it would have taken on weekdays. And travel took less time too, sometimes a lot less time and no stress too.
Mix that in with the fact I was happy to represent the BBC at car events with a technical vehicle meant I've been to the Bromley Pageant of Motoring and also to the delivery run to Gaydon of the last real Range Rover (I've done others, but those two stick in the mind).
To me, time off in the week is worth more than time off at weekends.
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>>some of our normal work done on
>> a Sunday morning took a fraction of the time it would have taken on weekdays.
YEP
>> And travel took less time too, sometimes a lot less time and no stress too.
YEP AGAIN!
>> To me, time off in the week is worth more than time off at weekends.
AND A THIRD YEP!
Shopping midweek - what a pleasure!
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There are seven days in a week; there is nowt special about any of 'em.
As long as a couple of days in the seven are work free, what's the problem?
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>> As long as a couple of days in the seven are work free...
Gosh that would be a nice thing to rely on.
:-(
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Mon 29 Feb 16 at 10:55
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One good thing about Sunday shopping is it keeps a lot of weekend only drivers tied up in car parks and not disrupting traffic flow with their weekend driver antics.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 29 Feb 16 at 14:16
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When my wife was pregnant she had to give up work, things were financially tight back then for me too. After the baby was born she got two early morning shifts on Saturdays and Sundays in our local Sainburys.
Saved our bacon so to speak.
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My missus is religious she has to be living with me.
She is in church Sunday morning and then we are shopping after.Women can shop for ever drives me potty.
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There are seven days in a week; there is nowt special about any of 'em.
We're not all OAPs, you know.
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>In this neck of the woods, the Sunday trading laws used to be crazy.
I remember the saying about Orange Free State when we were living in South West.
On Sunday, you should never have sex standing up in case it led to dancing!
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Here large shopping malls are open much the same every day. Smaller shops/malls will not be open on a Sunday, and any kind of industry / construction / mechanic /plumber or other service will probably not be open at all on the weekend, but if they are it will be Saturday morning only.
Strangely, many bars are closed on a Sunday but all large DIY places are open. Smaller restaurants are closed.
All official / civil service type places are 5 day week as you would expect.
All in all, unless you go to a shopping mall, Sunday is a pretty quiet time.
I don't think Sunday trading should be prevented by law in the UK, but I do think its a shame it happens so much. I used to like a quieter Sunday.
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I can't begin to argue with any of the entirely valid reasons for businesses providing a 7/7 service either, and indeed I avail myself of and participate in the provision of those facilities.
But, I do emotionally and perhaps irrationally agree with those who like Sundays to be primarily a day of leisure if possible. I think it's important to stop and draw breath sometimes and preferably in the company of those who mean something to you rather than at random, and by default, often separate times.
However, as Canute learned, it is folly to resist tides.
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Thankyou, Runfer. That neatly sums up what I feel about this topic.
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Ditto. I also agree with Runfer.
Sorry for only discovering the party after the horse has bolted, so to speak, but just wanted to voice my twopenneth:
Children go to school Mon - Fri. My nephew and his wife used to enjoy going away for the weekend once, occasionally twice, a month.
His wife got made redundant and she ended up with a job in a retail chain. She gets Mondays off, but has to work late on Wed evenings, and the full 6 hours every Sunday.
Then his employer changed his hours so he has to work every other Saturday. (Wasn't offered a 'choice'.)
It's very rare that they and the kids are able to jaunt off for a weekend away now.
They also have a classic car and used to attend many of the rallies, which mainly occur at the weekends. That's been severely cut down now.
And as for the trite "well they could get a different job" - well it's not always that easy, is it.
As others on here have self-proclaimed, a LOT of shopping gets done via the internet nowadays. But there are already 6 hours (plus petrol station stores) available for people who really need to buy something in-person on a Sunday. Does the public REALLY need to have even longer opening hours?
I'm not religious, and I'm not a liberal leftie, but we have this thing called a 'life', and life is so hectic and stressful these days that don't you think, for no other reason except of itself, that it isn't just NICE to try to preserve one day in the week when things AREN'T subservient to the same old 'work' and 'consumering' as all the others? And have it as a fixed day so that mum AND dad AND the kids have the opportunity to do something together in their 'lives'? Otherwise it all ends up feeling rather pointless.
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Nice example from the real world Enderman.
All the guff about businesses being there for customers who should be able to shop whenever they want, whilst a statement of the bleeding obvious as far as it goes, ignores the universal truth that a free-for-all market approach invariably means a race to the bottom for the people with least economic power.
Most of us here were formed in our attitudes during the 70s, and perhaps some of the abuses of union power then have rather overshadowed the importance of basic employment protections that were hard-won, and are now being eroded rapidly.
There are an estimated 1.7million zero hours employment contracts, and roughly half of those relate to somebody's main employment (and the trend is upwards).
It's OK saying unemployment is low, but 800,000 of those "employed" have effectively no security at all from day to day. Turn down a couple of difficult shifts that you have been rostered at short notice, and you could find yourself sitting at home for a fortnight.
The destruction of the Labour party as a labour party is a tragedy for millions. We need a proper Labour party and we need it now, or we will have a growing underclass of working poor.
Full exploitation is not the same as full employment, or shouldn't be.
Discuss, as the fluffster would say.
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>> All the guff about businesses being there for customers who should be able to shop
>> whenever they want, whilst a statement of the bleeding obvious as far as it goes,
It is guff, and is not a statement of the truth either.
Businesses are there for themselves. To gain the most revenue they have to pander to customers where necessary. Put its pandering, not supporting. If they can't see a financial benefit, then they don't do it.
Now, I obviously have no issue with that, but pretending it is otherwise is naive.
>>and perhaps some of the abuses of union power then have rather overshadowed the
>> importance of basic employment protections that were hard-won
I do find it a difficult thing to remember. Even the unions I was involved in during the 70s/80s were appalling and excessive organisations. But they were valuable once and quite clearly we need a level of union presence even now. I wonder if the likes of Scargill & Robinson would be capable of understanding how much fundamental long term damage they did to the union movement. In my opinion, far more than Margaret Thatcher did.
>> The destruction of the Labour party as a labour party is a tragedy for millions.
It is a tragedy for the entire country. We need a strong Labour and labour party. It needs to be some distance politically from the Conservative Party. Ideally far enough to make room for a centre party. And it needs to be a credible and viable leadership option and have grown up opinions based in the real world.
Now it is neither credible nor viable. I hope they get rid of Corbyn and sort it out soon.
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>> It is guff, and is not a statement of the truth either.
>> pretending it is otherwise is naive.
Clearly a need is not going to be served for long unless it can be served profitably. What customers actually want is free stuff, any time :)
The nearest example I can think of, of that actually being a business plan, is Freeserve - remember that?
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I do. No ISP fees just a share of the telephone revenue.
Orange now, I think.
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Sunday shopping hours. - Westpig
