1) The facts are not known
2) The facts are unknown
Any comments on their relative correctness and/or the subtleties of any difference in meaning?
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"Unknown" has a slight suggestion that no one knows, whereas "not known" suggests merely that the present investigators do not know them, but somebody might.
Not known means we haven't really started digging yet, but unknown means we have tried all the usual routes but are unable to come up with anything.
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Well put Cliff, that's in tune with what I was thinking but wouldn't have been able to express.
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Had same thought as Cliff. Echoes of Donald Rumsfeld's (actually NASA's) known unknowns etc.
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As brompy said
>> 1) The facts are not known
Known unknowns
>> 2) The facts are unknown
Unknown Unknowns,
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1 is quite clear. We do not know what the facts are.
2 is, I think, potentially suggesting something else. I'm not quite sure what though but I just don't like it.
The grave contains the remains of the unknown warrior. The grave contains the remains of the warrior who is not known [the latter I think implies something different from the former].
Unknown is an adjective meaning not known. So prima facie there is no difference.
But...
I think perhaps there's a slight difference in sense. Somehow I feel that 'not known' means there is a hope that they may become known, whereas 'unknown facts' will always be unknown facts as it is an inherent part of their identity.
Interestingly sticking unknown or not known into Google comes up with nothing. So I may be making it up. Nevertheless, I should use '1' not '2'.
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I see that in the time I took to draft this, others have come up with the same point.
It's not necessarily quite that clear-cut though, as there's always hope of finding out more:
The facts are not known yet.
The facts are currently unknown.
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>>
>> It's not necessarily quite that clear-cut though, :
>>
I think perhaps either can be slanted slightly depending on the emphasis and stress the words are given. Also on our preconceptions about the circumstances.
In the unknown warrior example we cannot escape the prior knowledge of the soldier with no name whose body was recovered from the battlefield, may be a private, may be an officer, may be even a German. So we know what "unknown" means in this context.
But often when we label someone as unknown we mean we know only his bare name, but with no associated character or personality - "he was always secretive - I was married to him for 40 years but never felt I really knew him".
Or alternatively, we know absolutely everything about some legendary character except his real name or where he came from. Was he Shakespeare or Francis Bacon?
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"The facts are not known" is more emphatic.
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Or as I've heard said in these parts "I dunno, me."
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>> Or as I've heard said in these parts "I dunno, me."
You might easily hear in Nigeria, if you were in luck, something like 'Me I no dey know nottin at all-O'.
Amazing how well these chaps express themselves in a difficult foreign language.
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>> "The facts are not known" is more emphatic.
>>
One of my favourite quotations is "Facts prove nothing unless supported by a really good theory" - Sir Arthur Eddington
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What a load of rubbish! (Not you, Cliff, this whole thread.) For a start, it's not even a question of grammar.
}:---)
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"For a start, it's not even a question of grammar."
Absolutely. It's a question of semantics. (Though some would argue that semantics is a branch of grammar.)
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>> Absolutely. It's a question of semantics. (Though some would argue that semantics is a branch
>> of grammar.)
But that would just be pedantics:)
You could have the same sort of argument with yourself about 'might' and 'may' or 'shall' and 'will', but IMO there are far worse solecisms than using the wrong one of those - a common one even here being to confuse 'infer' and 'imply', that have distinctly separate meanings.
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>>
>> >> to confuse 'infer' and 'imply', that
>> have distinctly separate meanings.
>>
If you see a man staggering along the road clutching at lampposts, you may infer that he is drunk. If you say to him "Had a few too many, have we sir?" you are implying it.
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I recall being taught I Infer, and You implY.
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I remember when learning Spanish, that I commented to our young lady teacher, that for non-native speakers, English grammar was simple, but English pronunciation was hard, while with situations reversed, Spanish grammar was hard, but Spanish pronunciation was easy. (Relatively!)
We learnt enough Spanish to get by, although it's becoming difficult after 5 years, to remember too much of it!
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A friend of mine retired early about 10 years ago and moved with his wife to Chile. ( no not him ! )
They spoke no Spanish when they arrived but are now pretty much fluent. So much so that they both admit to speaking to each other in Spanish without thinking because they've both been so used to speaking it to others all day and sometimes sort of forget to revert to English when they are alone.
I found the same when working in Germany in that I had a British colleague but often as not we'd converse in German ( mainly to include others around us ) but sometimes even on a one to one we'd just notice that we were still speaking German when we we were both natural English speakers. I guess you just get into the way of your environment.
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If I sounded snooty above I apologise; I know how "pendants" are regarded on here and I am one, I admit. Not fanatically so, but to the extent that I like to get things right if I can. I'm well aware that my knowledge of grammar is nothing special too.
The feeling that obvious and repeated simple errors provoke in me isn't scorn or hubris, but a slight embarrassment for the writer and a desire to fix it. I'd rather I didn't care, to be honest.
There are people on here whose (not who's please) opinions and knowledge I value, who must have written hundreds of reports in their working lives, yet they have not troubled to learn what must be the simplest grammar rule of all, the one that governs the use, or not, of the apostrophe in its.
For glub's sake and your own please look it up so that I can relax.
(Not you Zero. I don't mean that I don't value your knowledge etc. but I realise that you are deliberately trying to get rid of the apostrophe and to modify the meaning of various words through unconventional usage. That also disturbs me so much that I sometimes look around to make sure nobody has made off with my Chambers.)
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>>
>> I sometimes look around to make sure nobody has made off with my Chambers.)
>>
....... leaving you without a pot to pee in😈
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It's interesting to watch from the sidelines of life the slow spread of what is deemed "incorrect". The apostrophe war is pretty well lost, and you can now see incorrect usage of that in the newspapers regularly, never mind all over this site.
The next one that is creeping is "haitch", the incorrect pronunciation of the letter. I noticed today it was used in that way on the television in a commercial for some ghastly little plastic figures from Game of Thrones; the voiceover says that they are from HBO but says "haitch".
When that one gets to the Radio 4 news then all will be lost, and we will have reached hell in that infamous handbasket.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Sat 12 Mar 16 at 19:12
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>When that one gets to the Radio 4 news then all will be lost, and we will have reached hell in that infamous handbasket
I cackle with maniacal laughter as the devil shovels postulant pedants into the furnaces of hades.
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I admire your commitment to the post-literate society.
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>> I admire your commitment to the post-literate society.
I prefer to think of it as the pre-liberation society.
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I prefer the self preservation society.
That's such a good film.
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>> I prefer the self preservation society.
>>
>> That's such a good film.
Blows your doors off you might say.
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The most under rated performance in that has to be Fred Emney.
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I never knew pedants really existed until I started here. I feel sympathy for them, must be a terrible affliction to have.
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The next one that is creeping is "haitch", the incorrect pronunciation of the letter. I noticed today it was used in that way on the television in a commercial for some ghastly little plastic figures from Game of Thrones; the voiceover says that they are from HBO but says "haitch".
You're fighting a long lost battle there. The 'haitch' pronunciation I think is largely an Edinburgh quirk and accordingly much beloved by media girls who make out they come from there. Oddly few media boys affect it. Been around for years too.
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>> You're fighting a long lost battle there. The 'haitch' pronunciation I think is largely an
>> Edinburgh quirk and accordingly much beloved by media girls who make out they come from
>> there. Oddly few media boys affect it. Been around for years too.
It's certainly a normal Irish thing too, but it does seem to have been taken up in an affected way when the people who say it often drop all their other aitches.
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I grew up in Edinburgh and can honestly say I had never heard anyone say "haitch" before I went to London. Not sure where you get that theory from. On the contrary, it seems to appear as a habit far more in regions where the letter H is regularly dropped in the local accent. Not the case in Edinburgh for sure.
My mother in law introduces a random H when she is trying to "talk posh", for example I really have heard her order 'am and heggs" for breakfast.
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>> I really have heard her order 'am and heggs" for breakfast.
>LOL<
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"Haitch" is just a symptom of a lack of education; just like "proNOUNciation"
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I grew up in Edinburgh and can honestly say I had never heard anyone say "haitch" before I went to London. I grew up in Edinburgh and can honestly say I had never heard anyone say "haitch" before I went to London.
And I'd never heard it in an unaffected way until I went there! Oh well.
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The letter aitch is part of my postcode, and whenever I pronounce it as such to someone on the dog and bone, it is almost always repeated back to me as haitch - and they say I'm unedumacated!
:}
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There's only one h in aitch.
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It grates on my ears too. Presumably it'll spread: expect 'feff', 'lell', 'mem' etc before the decade is out.
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Lots of people say words differently, h is just another one.
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It's strange how people get worked up about the pronunciationof aitch. It's simply a pronunciation which is changing.
In Victorian times apparently hotel, herb and hospital were all pronounced without the h sound.
No doubt those who insisted on inserting the sound were once mocked for their mispronunciation. They would now be criticised for doing the opposite.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 13 Mar 16 at 10:54
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>> It's strange how people get worked up about the pronunciationof aitch. It's simply a pronunciation
>> which is changing.
aitch still doesn't have an aitch at the start:)
>> In Victorian times apparently hotel, herb and hospital were all pronounced without the h sound.
Hotel still is:)
From here I guess -
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11642588
I was amazed when Frank Spencer's droll use of harass spread into general serious use (now heard on Radio 4 for goodness sake). Mis-cheev-i-us I think was another comic pronunciation from somewhere, perhaps that was Frank as well.
Point taken of course. Being working class and from the West Riding, my speech is far from RP and still contains dialect words that I grew up with.
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>> Point taken of course. Being working class and from the West Riding, my speech is
>> far from RP and still contains dialect words that I grew up with.
>>
Snap, Ginnel is a word I still use that many outside the west riding find have never heard before.
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So thoil, ackle, frame, clemmed, sluffed, belly wark, mullock, sup, tabs or lugs, druffen, and fratch will all mean summat to thi?
I leave most of those out of board presentations. You have to know your audience.
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Some of them, some not but as tha' knows, it depends even which bit you're from. I know loiners have an accent different from say keighley or wakey and no doubt different words. I always liked thoil though.
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As Sooty says some of those are local to specific parts of the WR. IIRC Manatee's from Cleckheaton or thereabouts. Some stuff he mentions I don't recognise as a Leeds lad. But then dialect in the Kippax/Swillington area of Leeds where Mum's family lived wouldn't be recognised across the city in Horsforth/Aireborough where I grew up.
Ginnel though is guaranteed to wrong foot Southerners.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 13 Mar 16 at 12:18
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>> Bunch of Hobbits.
>>
>> :o}
No it doesn't mean that. Tsk.
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>> No it doesn't mean that. Tsk.
I didn't say it did. What I meant was that people here are like a bunch of nerdish Hobbits. I don't exclude myself.
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I didn't say it did. What I meant was that people here are like a
>> bunch of nerdish Hobbits. I don't exclude myself.
>>
>>
It was a jok... oh well you know what they say, if you have to explain it...
;-)
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>> Ginnel though is guaranteed to wrong foot Southerners.
Not. Accepted now as vernacular in Brighton, in surrey they are known as Twittens, and in London they were always referred to as "me back passage" which of course led to to the infamous music hall risqué jokes.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 13 Mar 16 at 12:50
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>> I had to Google it.
I expected nothing more of you.
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>> Not. Accepted now as vernacular in Brighton,
Oddities like that are interesting in their own right. Does the usage in Brighton reflect the city's current cosmopolitan nature or did it travel down there sometime in the past with a particular trade or migrant/relocated workforce?
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>> >> Not. Accepted now as vernacular in Brighton,
>>
>> Oddities like that are interesting in their own right. Does the usage in Brighton reflect
>> the city's current cosmopolitan nature or did it travel down there sometime in the past
>> with a particular trade or migrant/relocated workforce?
No idea how it got there, but as it applies to the small terrace houses around the station yards (and not "the lanes" as oft reported) i would suggest it came down with railway workers.
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>>
>> No idea how it got there, but as it applies to the small terrace houses
>> around the station yards (and not "the lanes" as oft reported) i would suggest it
>> came down with railway workers.
>>
Probably the Prince Regent. He used to pop down to the Pav most weekends.
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>>Ginnel though is guaranteed to wrong foot Southerners<<
I don't think so, Coronation Street is available outside of Yorkshire tha knows!
Pat
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>> >>Ginnel though is guaranteed to wrong foot Southerners<<
>>
>> I don't think so, Coronation Street is available outside of Yorkshire tha knows!
>>
>>
i didn't know that they use that word in mancland
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 14 Mar 16 at 05:06
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>> I don't think so, Coronation Street is available outside of Yorkshire tha knows!
Coronation Street is set in Lancashire with Wetherfield(?) a suburb of Manchester. Emmerdale is rooted in ginnel country and I'm pretty sure their are such passages around the former setting in Esholt.
Whether the term was ever used by the performers is another question.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 14 Mar 16 at 08:32
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>>I always liked thoil though.
Thoil (for the foreigners) is a great word that has no synonym as far as I know. Appropriately for a Yorkshire word it has to do with value for money.
The most common usage is as in "I can't thoil £5 for a pint of lager" meaning (in West Yorkshire) "I'd be minded to have one and I can afford it but I'm not paying that much..."
The nearest one-word substitute is probably "justify" but it doesn't capture the full meaning, which to my mind includes disdain for anybody who would pay it and whoever has the cheek to ask for it.
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>> In Victorian times apparently hotel, herb and hospital were all pronounced without the h sound.
At school I was taught that hotel, being a French word, was pronounced without the aitch and therefore 'an hotel' was perfectly acceptable.
So why do the BBC get away with "an historic event"?
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So why do the BBC get away with "an historic event"?
I guess because the normal pronunciation of "a hotel" using the weak "uh" sound for "a" sounds ugly.
You can of course use the strong form of "a' and say "Ay hotel but then you run the risk of being accused of American pronunciation
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One guide I've come across suggests 'a' with an aspirated aitch if the first syllable is stressed, and 'an' without if it isn't. Hence
a hero, a history teacher
but
an heroic act, an historian.
But it all sounds a bit arch and fake these days, so it's 'a' for everything for me.
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Uh historian or ay historian?
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>> >> In Victorian times apparently hotel, herb and hospital were all pronounced without the h
>> sound.
>>
More recently than that. I've heard an elderly relative say "awspital".
As in that old joke "Do you come here frequently, or don't you have any parents?"
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>> As in that old joke "Do you come here frequently, or don't you have any
>> parents?"
>>
How very piratical.
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>> How very piratical.
a Cornish cultural reference on a Monday morning, well done sir!
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 14 Mar 16 at 10:28
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A Nottinghamshire greeting from when I worked in the city of Nottingham, many years ago........
"Ey up yowd boggar."
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>> "Ey up yowd boggar."
The use of the 'B word' as a term of endearment is common in parts of Yorkshire too, and has been for many years. IIRC the author James Herriot (pseudonym for Alf Wright), a Scot brought up to idea that word was extremely offensive, writes of being initially dumbstruck by its friendly use in his North Riding patch.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 14 Mar 16 at 12:26
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>> >> "Ey up yowd boggar."
>>
Around here t'owd boggar would be the paternal parent.
8o)
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English Grammar - Cliff Pope
