Continuing debate
486521
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 11 Mar 16 at 01:31
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I see the govt was defeated in the attempt to change things. I quite like that, the govt being defeated. Looks like they chose to ignore the warning signs and bulldoze it through, and the attempt failed...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35768674
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 9 Mar 16 at 18:52
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>> I see the govt was defeated in the attempt to change things. I quite like
>> that, the govt being defeated. Looks like they chose to ignore the warning signs and
>> bulldoze it through, and the attempt failed...
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35768674
>>
So the fact that Scottish MPs - Scotland being unaffected by this proposed legislation - voted against it had no effect on the result?
It did not affect Scotland, if the sweaties hadn't voted, it would have gone through.
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>> So the fact that Scottish MPs - Scotland being unaffected by this proposed legislation -
>> voted against it had no effect on the result?
No? the government has a majority, thats what makes it a ruling government. So it should have won, or it would have done if its own MPs had not voted it down.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 9 Mar 16 at 19:43
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>> No? the government has a majority, thats what makes it a ruling government. So it
>> should have won, or it would have done if its own MPs had not voted
>> it down.
>>
My MP (Tory) abstained.... because he is religious.
The SNP will kick the Tories any time they can.. and they did.... because the majority is not that great.
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>> the government has a majority, thats what makes it a ruling government. So it
>> should have won, or it would have done if its own MPs had not voted
>> it down.
It doesn't alter the fact that if the Scottish MPs hadn't interfered in something that was nothing to do with them and had no effect on them, then the Bill would have passed.
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Isn't it strange that our centralisesd system of government gets involved with something as piffling as when the shops open. Something that would be left to local government in most countries. What an odd nation we ar at times.
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>> Isn't it strange that our centralisesd system of government gets involved with something as piffling
>> as when the shops open.
As an observer of the law I think putting this in LA control would have thrown up a lot of business for planning lawyers. LA's attempting to 'redline' out of town centres while allowing town centres to open all day would, I suspect be subject to judicial review on grounds of rationality and/or lawfulness.
Do they pay for their own QC, expert etc (and risk having to pay for those of stores too)? Or do they roll over, following the usual precedent when a new store is proposed irrespective of local views?
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Indeed, the 'West Lothian question' rears it's head again.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Wed 9 Mar 16 at 22:35
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>> It doesn't alter the fact that if the Scottish MPs hadn't interfered in something that
>> was nothing to do with them and had no effect on them, then the Bill
>> would have passed.
And it doesn't alter the fact the government has a ruling majority and you seem to have forgotten 232 labour MPs, 8 DUP MPs, 4 IRA (sorry Sin Fein) MPs, 3 Taffs, 3 SDLP, and 2 UUP.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 9 Mar 16 at 22:56
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Personally I am against Sunday shopping hours, in reality people who work Sundays are forced to do it for no extra pay in many cases. We simply don't need big supermarkets or shopping centres opening at 7:00am on a Sunday!
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>> We simply don't need big supermarkets or shopping centres opening at 7:00am on a Sunday!
But currently a supermarket can only be open for 6 hours on a Sunday. Usually 10am - 4pm or 11am - 5pm.
What about supermarkets and other shops being open for those that work Mon - Sat?
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Supermarkets are open 24/6 around here...no problem
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No, that would be 24/7, not 24/6
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Missed his 24/6.
Around here and anywhere else it's 24x6 and then either 10-4, 11-5 or 12-6 on a Sunday. A shop like Tesco Express is not treated the same of course and is open longer.
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And - as someone earlier may have mentioned - those that do open 24h have not found the expected volume of business late at night.
Nice statistic from the Mail this morning (picked out without comment on R4's review of the press.) Apparently the changes blocked by the 'hypocritical' SNP would have added £1.5bn to the GDP - over ten years. Over that time the GDP will be something like £30trn, so the SNP (and not, of course, the majority that the government failed to command) has robbed us of an increase of one part in 20,000, or about £2.50 per person per year. And that's the 'pro' side's figure, so presumably counting everything possible in their favour.
Perhaps one of our Mail readers would do me a favour and show that the paper put this number in context as the piddling amount it is. Otherwise it's had to see any upside from putting more people in the situation Enderman describes.
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>> And - as someone earlier may have mentioned - those that do open 24h have
>> not found the expected volume of business late at night.
Quite, hence why Tesco are closing some of their 24 hour stores.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35440480
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>> It doesn't alter the fact that if the Scottish MPs hadn't interfered in something that
>> was nothing to do with them and had no effect on them, then the Bill
>> would have passed.
The Scots would say it can affect them and illustrates why the English Parliament/English Laws thing is not as simple as portrayed.
The open all hours Sunday trading law in Scotland includes protections on Sunday pay. If England adopted open all hours without those protections it would be difficult to sustain the position in Scotland against an onslaught of pressure from big supermarkets. Same principle applies to other measures, particularly where they influence the 'Barnett Formula' and any successor to it.
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I had a Saturday job at the local Tesco when I was doing A-Levels in 1992, just as the company started to open on Sundays. It was hugely popular with staff then, as it was both optional, and paid at double time. During the school holidays, I was doing both days at the weekend, plus a couple of late shifts during the week, and clearing well over £150 a week. Reasonable money today for a part time job today, but serious bunce in the early 90s as a student. I left in 1993 and went into the world of full time work, but when Act was passed in 1994 that was the end of the good times. All new starters had Sunday working written into their contracts, and it became just another working day.
I have no issue with shops opening on Sundays, but I think you have to remember the people staffing them are on minimum wage (or close to) and have families and lives. Any increase in hours is going to have a far bigger negative impact on their personal lives than it does a positive impact on their financial one.
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>> I have no issue with shops opening on Sundays, but I think you have to
>> remember the people staffing them are on minimum wage (or close to) and have families
>> and lives. Any increase in hours is going to have a far bigger negative impact
>> on their personal lives than it does a positive impact on their financial one.
>>
Is 7/7 working or every weekend working compulsory or do staff work the same hours with a day(s) off during the week and some weekend's?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 10 Mar 16 at 08:46
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The bottom line is if people did not want to have the flexibility of shopping on a Sunday they would not do it and it would not be viable for the shops to open. The politicians are out of step with Joe public and think they know best. A politically generated argument for job justification.
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I do think it's not viable for some shops. When I go into my local town on a Sunday there are small shops open but hardly anyone around. If I go to the one of the many Indians for a buffet we are often the only people in the restaurant. There are a number of non-chain shops which do not open.
In the computer thread there is discussion about the economics of some repairs and I am guessing the same rules are at play - if you own the shop and are paying the overheads anyway then so long as you can sometimes cover the incremental cost (= assistants pay) then it's worth keeping up with the rest.
So I suspect it isn't economical for some shops to open but maybe good for the big supermarkets and diy sheds.
I suppose internet shopping will have driven some of the desire of the chains to open at more convenient hours so that people can actually go a look and touch, and maybe buy, items, otherwise they'd lose even more trade to it.
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>>I suspect it isn't economical for some shops to open
Their challenge is that their opening hours do not materially increase the amount of revenue/business available to the industry in that catchment area. Their only hope is that it may impact their share of that revenue.
So if they all open, or they all close, it makes little impact. If they are one of the few open, or one of the few closed, then it will.
What they don;t want is an uneven playing field. Or at least, what they regard as uneven.
e.g. a corner shop selling a loaf of bread at 7am on a Sunday morning when they are forced to be closed.
The supermarket would be just as happy with everybody else forced closed, they just don't want someone else open when they are not - be that petrol station, corner shop or anything else.
I, on the other hand, couldn't give a flying stuff what the supermarkets want.
The earlier point about "so don't work for a supermarket if you don't like it" is naive at best. For example, just one indirect impact; what about all the other local shops that either lose significant business or are forced to open themselves as supermarket hours extend? Should they just close and also find another job?
By and large I suspect that most people don't desperately want supermarkets open on a Sunday, only Supermarkets really want that. Its just that if they are open, some will use them.
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Perhaps you're the one to help us out with the numbers, ON. This overwhelming demand from Joe Public to spend an extra £2.50 a year (if we believe the DM's figures) is strong enough to be worth disrupting people's lives for, is it?
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Now now, this is ONs bottom line remember.
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This is straight from the Mail:
The Business Department had argued that extending Sunday trading hours for larger shops - classed as 280 square metres or more - could benefit the UK economy by an estimated £1.5 billion or more over 10 years.
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>> Now now, this is ONs bottom line remember.
>>
You forget that I see it from somewhere that has always had 24/7 shopping, some shops open on a Sunday, some don't. It is really not the big deal you lot down there make it out to be. As Westpig said somewhere in this thread, thousands work on Sundays, why are shopworkers so different.
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As Westpig said somewhere in this thread, thousands work on Sundays..
Westpig never misses a chance to oversimplify.
}:---)
Nurses and police officers work on Sundays because people would suffer if they didn't. The same doesn't apply to other public servants - librarians, planning officers - because they provide necessary but non-urgent services.
Anyone who needs a packet of screws on a Sunday can get one under the existing regulations. They can even buy a sofa - which is urgent, of course, because that's when the unrepeatable half-price sale must end.
If there's something you simply must have at six o'clock on a Sunday evening, you can get it from a small trader, who will be pleased to see you. As NoFM clearly and patiently explained, these are the people and businesses who will suffer from unfettered big-business competition on Sundays.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Thu 10 Mar 16 at 11:06
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>>As NoFM clearly and patiently explained, these are the people and businesses who will suffer from
>> unfettered big-business competition on Sundays.
>>
That's odd, there are at least half a dozen privately owned "corner shops" in my immediate area, selling a vast range of food and non food items. The four big supermarkets have not put them out of buisiness despite having a couple of small shops themselves and being open 24/7.
The main problem is most of you nay sayers don't live in a 24/7 shopping environment have little or no experience of it and are talking rubbish.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 10 Mar 16 at 12:34
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Are they staffed by the owners or by hired help? Maybe owners are more likely to open to try to boost their takings, especially if business is not brilliant.
I can think of a couple of convenience stores round here which stay open long hours and have been there for years but they are on the "social housing" estates where I presume people may be less inclined or able to go to the larger stores but there are no such shops in other areas.
But I think it is fair to say that in most towns in the UK the High Street has seen a dramatic loss in "fresh" good shops (butches, bakers, greengrocers, fishmongers) caused directly by the supermarkets.
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You do talk some old crap about stuff you know nothing about.
How many endless butchers, bakers, milkman, local petrol stations, village shops and the like have been harmed in the last 45 years by the growth of large supermarkets?
Do you believe supermarkets try to grow their business as much as possible?
Who do you think was doing that business *before* the supermarket?
What do you think will happen to other businesses if supermarkets do *more* business?
Jeez.
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Is that response for me or ON?
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>> Is that response for me or ON?
NFM can reply himself but layout in site (and words used) suggest his target was ON.
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>>Is that response for me or ON?
ON
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>> What do you think will happen to other businesses if supermarkets do *more* business?
>>
>> Jeez.
>>
I accept your point, but 24/7 shopping does not end civilisation as we know it. I have been in my local (big) ASDA at 1am, it was like a ghost ship. I doubt if there were more than half a dozen staff stacking shelves. And certainly no more than single figure cars in the car park. I do not think the link between 24 hour opening and high Street decimation is valid. The mere presence of a supermarket kills the high street and a lot of that is down to free parking.
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>>The mere presence of a supermarket kills the high street
Well the mere presence of a closed supermarket has less presence. It has some though, you're right. People will use a corner shop less on a Sunday because they know the supermarket will be open tomorrow.
Having the supermarket actually open on the Sunday increases that impact significantly.
But you're right, it doesn't end civilisation, but it does encourage changes.
I think many small businesses co-existing with the large businesses is a good thing. But, to have that, you have to protect the small businesses to some extent.
Small businesses are like Red Squirrels. Anywhere you let the grey squirrels in then they will be damaged and perhaps destroyed. If you want to keep red squirrels, then as a minimum you have to limit the grey squirrels.
Of course, if you don't care about red squirrels then it is not important.
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Don't forget that English supermarkets are open 24/6 and for a limited time on Sundays. A few extra hours is not going to make a great difference to high street decimation. The supermarket will have staff there to accept overnight deliveries and replenish shelves anyway.
I think the situation of a shop opening at 10am but not being able to sell anything until 11am is crazy. A bit like not being able to buy booze before 10 am in Scotland. :-)
A storm in a political teacup.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 10 Mar 16 at 13:38
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>> A few extra hours is not going to make a great difference to high street decimation
You would be surprised.
Perhaps that corner shop is open all week but is covering his overheads on his "out of normal hours" business. He may be open during normal 9 - 5 because he can take a marginal approach to it. i.e. his overheads are paid by his evening and Sunday trade.
If you take away his Sunday & evening trade, which might only be 15% of his hours, it could be 90% of his profitable hours gone and insufficient to allow him to open.
It is the supermarket perspective that says "its only a couple more hours and they're allowed to do it so why can't we".
It may not be that extreme, but is would be naive to believe that the impact is not there.
But go back to my analogy; do you care about Red Squirrels? If so, is treating red & grey squirrels the same really what you should be doing?
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I do care about red squirrel shops and use them but Scotland which has always had unrestricted opening hours for all has plenty of small independent shops. I think the downside of unrestricted opening hours is greatly exaggerated.
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>> I think the downside of unrestricted opening hours is greatly exaggerated.
I don't know about Scotland, I left Ayr about 30 years ago and haven't lived in Scotland since. it is quite possible that the shopping habits are different I really couldn't say.
However, in England, people have shown an absolute willingness to inhabit large supermarkets, shopping malls, retail parks at the like and the expense of and devastation to high streets and small businesses.
That is a fact.
It is also clearly what a purely economic, supply & demand, environment will bring.
It is not, however, really what I think maintains the spread of cultures and options we should have. Especially when 75% of a catchment area can still want and use a butcher's shop, for example, but that be insufficient to justify it opening.
So, if that 75% (and you know I made figure that up) then the local retail environment cannot be left simply to free market forces.
So what're we to do?
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Surely Scotland is different in that the rural, remote nature of much of the population lends more importance to small, local shops? There isn't a giant Tesco anywhere near Glencoe I'd imagine. Is there? There wasn't one when I holidayed on Barra - there was a piddly Co-Op and a Post Office with bacon on sale in the Irish style, both with hardly any produce, and I wondered how on earth people managed for groceries.
This is maybe why there are many more surviving red squirrels in Scottishshire than this side of the wall.
I expect online groceries are more of a threat now to small independent shops in rural Scotchlandshire than hypermarkets ever were. IMHO.
Amused to hear NF lived in Ayr. My favourite Jockanese football team resides there, the mighty Honest Men.
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"There isn't a giant Tesco anywhere near Glencoe"
No McDonalds either.
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>> No McDonalds either.
>>
Brilliant!
8o)
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As a member of Clan Campbell, I'd better not comment.
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>
>> But go back to my analogy; do you care about Red Squirrels? If so, is
>> treating red & grey squirrels the same really what you should be doing?
Great analogy.
The marginal impact is what is hard to get for some. Leahy got up my nose for years saying it was the customers' fault if Tesco put small shops out of business, studiously ignoring what to him must have been the obvious fact that it probably only takes 20%, maybe less, of the butcher's or baker's customers to switch to the supermarket to close it.
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I think you lot are getting over stressed about a few extra hours of big shop opening time on one day of the week. It is no big change or big deal. My only interest is I have to think about shop opening times if I am south of Hadrian's wall (built to keep you lot and your Roman buddies out) on a Sunday.
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>> The Scots would say it can affect them
they could say that about anything though. Didn't they say they were only going to vote on Scottish issues. I wouldn't expect it but they should just say they'll vote on anything, unless they already have?
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There are an enormous amount of people who currently work Sundays and have done for yonks:
Hospitality trade, e.g. hotels/ restaurants; police; fire; ambulance; hospitals; military; airports; ferries; air traffic control....etc, etc.
What difference does it make, being one of the above... or working in a shop.
In the 21st century if a shop wishes to open, it should be able to.
I (mostly) worked shifts for a 31 year career... then retired from that and worked for 3 years in a role that also covered Saturdays. You soon get used to it and in fact prefer having days off in the week, because you don't have to fight the weekend mob to get things done.
There should be less State interference.. and if a shop wants to open, let it.
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>>There should be less State interference.. and if a shop wants to open, let it.
Its not as simple as that, unfortunately. I agree with the principle, its the unintended consequences that spoil it.
And if a full service supermarket opens and forces a bunch of local shops out of business because they were keeping themselves going with their Sunday trade? Don't forget, that is the *SPECIFIC* aim of the supermarkets in extending their ours.
It used to be that a large supermarket coming into an area ultimately raised prices. Initially loads of competition, so low and keen prices, local shops go out of business, less competition, prices go up, average prices now higher than when supermarket arrived.
Consequently, encourage more supermarkets into the area to bring prices down again. Now, all local businesses and town centre go out of business. Supermarkets now run local retail without interference.
And without butchers, bakers, cafes, cake shops, corner shops - in fact most local businesses.
Now of course the "well if you don't like it, get a job somewhere else" attitude gets even more ridiculous, because increasingly there isn't anywhere else.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 10 Mar 16 at 10:02
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>> And if a full service supermarket opens and forces a bunch of local shops out
>> of business because they were keeping themselves going with their Sunday trade? Don't forget, that
>> is the *SPECIFIC* aim of the supermarkets in extending their ours.
The economics of whether the small shop can compete against the larger shop shouldn't be the concern of a government, or legislation....IMO.
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>> The economics of whether the small shop can compete against the larger shop shouldn't be
>> the concern of a government, or legislation....IMO.
>>
Might well be the legitimate concern of a town or district council in terms of whether a supermarket is allowed to build a large store in a particular area, or even whether a store is allowed to open on a Sunday, or for longer hours on a Sunday.
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Exactly, the impact isn't the economics but the impact on the town. Town centres full of boarded up shops don't look so good.
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>he economics of whether the small shop can compete against the larger shop shouldn't be the concern of a government, or legislation....IMO.
Squirrels. That's exactly what local Government should be about.
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Exactly, NF. WP fancies a world in which the survival of the fittest is the only measure of anything's worth. Easy to say that from a position of secure public employment/pension. Obviously that's OK government "interference", as no doubt are swingeing powers for Police officers. All good. Once all that is in place, survival of the fittest can be applied to everything and everyone else.
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>> WP fancies a world in which the survival of the fittest is the
>> only measure of anything's worth.
How very kind of you to twist things and put (inaccurate) words in my mouth.
>> Easy to say that from a position of secure public
>> employment/pension. Obviously that's OK government "interference", as no doubt are swingeing powers for Police officers.
Oh, that old chestnut again. So anyone in policing or was in policing or in any public service at all, cannot have a view and state it on a public forum, then?... or is it just the ones that disagree with your stance?
>> All good. Once all that is in place, survival of the fittest can be applied
>> to everything and everyone else.
>>
The old 'go for the extreme' to try and put and end to the other argument. When you post things like that, you just show yourself up.
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Our council recently blocked the expansion of an out of town shopping complex which would have included a LIDL, fast food, and seven new units. Odd that we have a new big Tesco in the centre of town alongside the high street.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 10 Mar 16 at 16:23
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My daughter worked shifts too in the NHS but recently moved to a 5 day week, 9 to 5, and is loving it - not having anti-social work patterns, not having to adapt her sleeping patterns etc. She did appreciate the weekday days off but in the whole prefers her new hours.
The difference with you and her is that you were paid something greater than a shop assistant wage, and had jobs (careers really) which had some variation and interest whereas sitting behind a till all day scanning barcodes for what many of us would regard as peanuts must be a bit soul destroying for anyone.
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I'm with Enderman on this. I'm not religious but can see the benefits for family life, and therefore society in general, in having a 'quiet' day. I am reminded at how pleasant Sundays are in Germany when nearly all the shops are shut. Much like it used to be here when I was a kid.
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The old trading (and licensing) laws were a pathetic meddlesome tiresome pain in the butt. They were changed to what we have now, and I can honestly say that at no time since have they caused me any issue, problem angst or anger. Sunday does still feel a little different, I have no religious compulsion, but it does seem a little slower paced, which i like.
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'Keep holy the Sabbath day', or words to that effect. Can't remember whether the word came from Jesus or Moses, but same difference really.
Speaking as a long-time atheist, it's my considered view that Christians are completely in the right on this one. If I can respect the God-botherers - and I do - then why can't everyone?
I'm sure Jews and Muslims will agree, and so will the smarter atheists if they can bring themselves to admit it.
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Don't the Jews see Saturday as their sabbath day?
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>> Don't the Jews see Saturday as their sabbath day?
Yep. Starts at sundown on Friday. Didn't understand it until I lived/worked in London and found professional people uncontactable after 14:30 on a December afternoon. Living first in Golders Green and then opposite the Synagogue in Harrow showed me more of the tapestry of Jewish life and the different interpretations varoius congregations placed on the Sabbath.
And then of course there are your Scots Sabbatarians.........
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I have to work on Sundays from time to time. Trade shows etc and often away from home. I don't really mind but I'd prefer not to have to. I like Sundays, they're my favourite day of the week usually. On Saturdays there always seems to be something to do or attend to and I'm always knackered after the working week but on Sundays it's normally a leisure day. Bike ride or whatever and good food.
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>> Don't the Jews see Saturday as their sabbath day?
Yes they do.
My point was that Jews and Muslims would see eye to eye with Christians on the need for a Sabbath, a day off work really.
Communists had one. 'Day of Rest and Culture' I think it was called. My parents had some radical friends who gave me a heavily Stalinist children's book, 'Palaces on Monday'. Damn good piece of work, fundamental to my intellectual development.
:o}
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 10 Mar 16 at 17:55
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>> Don't the Jews see Saturday as their sabbath day?
>>
Strangely, the Jewish Mr Marks, of M&S fame never had any compulsion about opening, and running, his first market stall on a Leeds Market Saturday.
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Similarly, C of E vicars seem to have no trouble working on a Sunday whilst telling everyone else it's a sin. See also Catholic clergy's attitudes to rumpy pumpy, etc etc etc..........
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>> Strangely, the Jewish Mr Marks, of M&S fame never had any compulsion about opening, and
>> running, his first market stall on a Leeds Market Saturday.
Compunction?
How do you know? He might have been racked with guilt.
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Or he simply recognized that shopping is a purely secular activity.
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Sunday shopping hours. - smokie