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Ongoing Debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 11 Jun 16 at 21:08
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More grist for the mill. I'm not sure what to make of it, and they have to find something to write about, but I usually find these articles from Woodford's interesting.
woodfordfunds.com/insight/centre-cannot-hold/?utm_source=insight-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=centre-cannot-hold
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Jun 16 at 01:20
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Livid. Boss has booked me away on Election Day! 700 mile round trip and 8 hours on site and too late for a postal vote!
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I believe you can do a proxy vote - haven't time now to look it up to check the procedure.
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"Article in today's Telegraph -"
Dave could see which way the wind was blowing and decided to call a referendum sooner rather than later.
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Perhaps all these countries about to break away and leave themselves short of markets to trade in could band together for mutual support. They could call it, let me think, the European Union.
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>> Perhaps all these countries about to break away and leave themselves short of markets to
>> trade in could band together for mutual support. They could call it, let me think,
>> the European Union.
>>
Or maybe the Common Market?
You know, a trading agreement without everything that has gone with it. Rather like we voted for in 1975 when we were lied to by heath.
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Haha, they could, but I don't think they'd want the same effective exchange rate as Germany when they sign the enabling treaty. The picture that article describes suggests that the EU and the Eurozone in particular is not working and won't work for France unless there are fiscal transfers from Germany...with Spain and Italy ahead of France in the queue presumably.
Hence my belief that it is broken, which conflicts with my generalised belief in cooperation.
When countries start binning the euro, assuming Germany doesn't find it politically doable to subsidise them, the shocks will be much bigger than Brexit.
I'm still planning to vote remain, although I also can't stop wondering if our first loss would be our least loss. What a mess.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 8 Jun 16 at 16:52
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If countries start ditching the Euro, then the banking system will likely collapse.. Make 2008 look like a Tea Party.
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Incidentally, I'm in Brussels, between trains. I stepped out of the station for some fresh air (well, fresher - it's still pretty sticky out there.) Funny thing is, everyone I saw, without exception, had a face. Small sample, I know, but could the 'faceless Brussels bureaucrat' on whose existence some here love to hang their arguments, be just another Euro-myth?
};---)
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I have a friend from Brussels. He can have a face of thunder, bellieve me.
Of course he's only part bureaucrat being a senior agency hack. Really excellent man.
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>> I have a friend from Brussels. He can have a face of thunder, bellieve me.
>>
Just smile and have a Vegemite sandwich ?
I come from a land down under
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
Adapted from Men At Work - Land Down Under
Probably an accidental linking of Brussels and Thunder in my mind sorry, I'll get my coat.
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www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2016/06/immigration
A follow up, in part inspired by the Nigel Fruitcake appearance last night?
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Bravo. Especially this bit:
So if you have moved to Britain from elsewhere, please don't think every person is like Nigel Farage and thinks you're a problem. Hopefully, on June 23rd, you'll find that a majority of Britons have a more positive outlook.
Actually I'd go one further: if you've never been to Britain, or considered coming here, please don't think we're all like Nige - or Rog.
My lunch companions today were six Germans and an Italian. Oh how we chuckled at the idea that I might need a visa for our next meeting. But Nige and his mates have had their fun and those of us with serious business to do are tired of apologizing for them. This has to end on the 24th.
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>>>>
>> My lunch companions today were six Germans and an Italian. Oh how we chuckled at
>> the idea that I might need a visa for our next meeting. But Nige and
>> his mates have had their fun and those of us with serious business to do
>> are tired of apologizing for them. This has to end on the 24th.
>>
Well thank God we've got people like you to apologise for us. Who knows where we'd be otherwise.
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"Oh how we chuckled at the idea that I might need a visa for our next meeting."
How did they view the fact that around half of the EU population feels the same about the EU as the Brits?
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>> How did they view the fact that around half of the EU population feels the
>> same about the EU as the Brits?
As proof that the UK doesn't have the monopoly on short sighted stupidity.
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"As proof that the UK doesn't have the monopoly on short sighted stupidity."
Indeed, they have 'remainers' as well.
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>> Indeed, they have 'remainers' as well.
Absolutely. Stupidity on all sides.
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I don't think that having to obtain a visa is a problem. Apparently I need one to get into Turkey next Monday, and my ESTA to ease admission to the USA is valid for two years.
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If you think visas are a trivial matter try getting one for Russia or Saudi Arabia!
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"If you think visas are a trivial matter try getting one for Russia or Saudi Arabia!"
Yes, I know from experience that the Russian visa application is tricky and expensive - but that would be the same regardless of whether or not we were in the EU. I can just about remember the pre-EU era and IIRC, moving between non-communist countries was no big deal.
I'd have thought a well-travelled executive like yourself, Will, would have had someone do all that visa stuff for you; my son never seems to have any bother.
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My comment was based on obtaining a tourist visa within the EU, and presumably the vast majority of people visiting the EU from the UK are tourists, not people visiting for commercial purposes. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but even I realise that visas for Russia & Saudi are somewhat more complex to obtain.
As for extending the deadline for online voting it doesn't bother me at all. I just think that with all the recent news about the referendum, people who left it to the very last hours to register then found the site went down deserve all they get. Bit like doing your online tax return the final day. FFS why should the deadline be extended to accommodate those lazy a***s who couldn't get their act together.
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>> FFS why should
>> the deadline be extended to accommodate those lazy a***s who couldn't get their act together.
>>
I've left it to the last minute..and bless me the site crashed. What a surprise.
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>> I've left it to the last minute..and bless me the site crashed. What a surprise.
We could of course have a sensible system of voter registration rather than one in which people seem to lose track of themselves; was being reported this morning that 50% of those seeking registration this week were in fact already on the register.
Capacity of system to cope with rush seems to be down to cost. Will be interesting to see what happens tonight.
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My step-son (intelligent) keeps trying to register when it comes up to an election. He's already on the register FFS as are all of us in the house. He seems to think you have to register for every election.
Westpig - you've left it to the last minute which is a little foolish. But when did you move to the current address? The council sends a list to check every year for electoral register don't they?
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Yes but you now have to complete and return it; there's no longer the default option just to keep your registration the same as before. I realized this last year when I was mowing the front lawn and Mrs Council with her clipboard presented me with a copy of our form and requested a signature to make it valid.
But it's easy for the likes of WP and me (WP is having a sarcastic scoff, RTJ) because we're settled at one address and just have to return a form each year. People who rent in the private sector - typically younger, less affluent, not in secure employment but required to move from job to job - could much more easily find themselves without a valid registration and have to fix it at the last minute. It's only fair and reasonable for the system to do all if can to accommodate them.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Fri 10 Jun 16 at 06:35
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>>It's only fair and reasonable for the system to do all if can to accommodate them. <<
'The system' did nothing but remind them repeatedly for the last 3 to 4 weeks....how much more can 'it' do?
If they felt strongly enough about it then they should have heeded those warnings.
As said above, if you can't turn up on time then you don't get in.
Pat
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Pat, who is this hurting? Not you, surely; your side has an overwhelming 24-22 lead in an entirely representative poll of old gits and timewasters.
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I am of the opinion that anyone, whatever their vote is destined to be, who cannot heed that many warnings, does not deserve the right to vote.
>> 24-22 lead in an entirely representative poll of old gits and timewasters. <<
Disparaging to the end.
It's this type of remark that helped to make me more certain of where to vote.
Old gits and timewasters....over to you to put him in his place.
This old git and timewaster is off to work.
Pat
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Have a nice day, Pat. I've been there for an hour.
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Quite, but once I'm at work my phone and internet access is switched off and I actually do what I'm paid for.
Pat
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Have a gold star. My performance review says I do what I'm paid for too.
For someone who leans so heavily on her salt-of-the-earth-me credentials, your lack of insight or imagination concerning the circumstances of others is breathtaking.
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>>Disparaging to the end.
<<
I repeat.....and I'm almost late, but not quite as I believe on being on time!
Pat
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I assume all 46 were included as old gits and time wasters, I don't think that was a disparagement of the Leavers.
Perhaps I'm wrong. But ever hopeful.
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I think you are probably right. Do you think it would help if we all put OG or TW in our responses for analysis?
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Don't take this as gospel, things change, but on a trip to Istanbul a few years ago I had for fork out c £10 for a sticker in my passport on arrival - not arranged in advance.
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Yes, I've done similar in Kenya and Indonesia. Serbia issues a stamp but doesn't charge. The whole conversation was not serious anyway - but the underlying point was: the Outies are a national embarrassment.
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>> I don't think that having to obtain a visa is a problem. Apparently I need
>> one to get into Turkey next Monday, and my ESTA to ease admission to the
>> USA is valid for two years.
>>
>>
Except I suspect that you don't base your comments on travelling for work ? Business visas - even to deliver a training course or shape a bid proposal can be very time consuming and expensive to obtain. Were these to be required in EU countries following a Brexit then it would add cost and inconvenience. I'm basing my comments on experience with India, China, Indonesia and Australia.
Of course, we may have an amicable trading agreement with the EU post Brexit. Let's not concern ourselves with inconvenient notions such as that our contribution to the EU budget (which we can no longer influence) might be the same or higher than today for such a trading privilege. Or that the free movement the Brexiters despise may be a condition. The words pyrrhic and victory come to mind. A bit like shoot and foot or self and inflicted.
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Someone care to explain this one? Let's remember this is your campaign to leave the 'profoundly undemocratic EU.
Not everyone has been comfortably mortgage-free in their own home for years; many move frequently from one rented home to another, hence a rush of late registrations. The system creaks, the deadline is relaxed to compensate and the Outies bleat that it's a ruse to skew the vote against them! Perhaps they can give us a list of the categories of people they'd like to see excluded from voting.
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"The system creaks"
You're right there, Will, our council was struggling to cope with the referendum following on so soon after the PCC elections. In the end, of course, desperate Dave's bending of the rules will put even more pressure on the council as the actual date of the referendum remains the 23rd.
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If you get to the pub a minute before closing time, there;s a queue and the bar shuts before you get served, it's tough nuts.
If you arrive later than requested at the airport and a delay causes you to miss the flight, hard luck.
People who are repeatedly late for meetings because of "traffic" that happens nearly every day, receive "unexpected" electricity bills, generally expect everybody else to fit around their "problems" and use the word "nightmare" all the time...stuff them, they shouldn't have a vote anyway.
:)
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To be fair Manatee, whilst I agree with your sentiments, the site did 'crash' before the advertised closing time. I know stuff all about these things but it was possibly because of the number of people trying to use it.
I like to think I'm organised. Online tax return always on time, albeit sometimes early January! I've never missed a flight, train, and am very rarely late picking friends up if I'm giving them lifts. Some people I know are the exact opposite of me...they don't seem to learn from their mistakes and I have a wealth of horror stories. They don't change.
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I expect the losing side will protest the results on grounds of maladministration.
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Could the political class be getting a bit worried about an out result because in future the buck would stop with them instead of their not me gov, it's Europe attitude?
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The 'political class' is overwhelmingly pro-EU anyway, to the extent that there'd never be a Commons majority in favour of Out. For people who like to be in control - and who understand how governments and international relations work - it would be a surprise if their main reason for this was that the EU took control away from them.
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>> To be fair Manatee, whilst I agree with your sentiments, the site did 'crash' before
>> the advertised closing time.
Yes, I am having fun, of course and I imagine many of those doing it did too.
I am deadline-driven myself, but I daren't leave my tax return until 31 Jan simply because I expect to have trouble with the site. If I did, and it suited my purpose, I would no doubt blame HMRC but would it really be their fault if I had been expecting trouble anyway?
It's called mitigation I think!
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Seems the big fat lies are too much even for Outies - or for one Outie anyway:
EU referendum: MP Sarah Wollaston swaps sides over 'untrue' Leave claims
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464
Didn't stop John Redwood putting on his best Vulcanweasel act this morning in defence of the indefensible.
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Sounded a nice lady on R4 this morning. Very impressed.
Redwood makes me want to upchuck, so glad I'm out of his safe, gerrymandered constituency by a gnat's chuff. Mind you, my current Tory isn't much better either. Not that the outgoing Labour one was much cop either.
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Roll-on the 23rd, when it's all over!
This is more like a Court battle, the "INies" the Prosecution, the "Outies" the Defence. The every-day common (non-business) folk the Defendants. Whatever the outcome of the case, it seems we will be punished one way or another, be it by E.U governance or our own. The ordinary folk can't really win, we will still be hit by new laws or Taxes either way, and just like now we will have no say in the matter.
To quote a Quote from some famous person or other: The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Que Sera sera!
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I think you have that back to front, Dev. It's the Outies that want to change the status quo, so the burden of proof is on them.
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Not aimed at you personally NF, but doesn't this raise the interesting question of how we in Britain deride and even despise our former PMs, who were elected by none other than ourselves, whereas in the US former Presidents are accorded great respect?
I liked John Major as a PM and still respect and mostly agree with what he has to say publicly. I couldn't give a tuppenny toenail if he dipped his wick in a Currie.
I do get the dislike of Blair, I never trusted him and I was very nervous about him in 1997, and clearly remember saying so. But still, the Great British Public, in their infinite, independent wisdom, elected him twice. And yet now they cry 'bar steward' at him relentlessly. Hypocrites. Was the phrase 'stoat danced' or similar?
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"Hypocrites"
Yep - that's Labour for ya - beestly behaviour, I'd say.
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And all the people who had previously voted Tory but switched to Blairism in 1997. If they hadn't, he'd never have been elected. Now they want to hang him.
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Being reasonable ( :) ) if you vote for someone based on what they say, and only later find out they've been lying, you might feel entitled to a bit of a moan?
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>> Being reasonable ( :) ) if you vote for someone based on what they say,
>> and only later find out they've been lying, you might feel entitled to a bit
>> of a moan?
Yes, I suppose I can't expect everyone to have my psychic powers when it comes to "seeing it coming" with Blair. I do get things right occasionally.
;-)
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...beestly behaviour...
Meaning what, HW?
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I take your point Al, but its not quite mine.
As it happens I liked Major, and quite admired him. I was also pretty impressed with what Blair achieved, much as I liked neither his politics nor him.
My point was that if you wanted to impress the masses and wanted to influence their voting in one direction or another, would you really choose those two personalities to do it?
Because whatever your own position, and what ever you thought of the behaviour, surely you would be aware of the likely emotional reaction.
And then if you read further down about some of the statements attributed to them, then you'd have to think that from a PR perspective this was a very silly thing to do.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 9 Jun 16 at 13:07
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As Mark says. What Blair doesn't realise though is that he's a toxic brand in the UK.
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Just to dispel a few myths:
1. Paid holiday leave - EU legislation 4 weeks. UK 5.6 weeks
2.Maternity leave- EU 14 weeks. UK 52 weeks
3. Maternity pay- EU no minimum pay. UK 90% for 6 weeks then £140 for 33 weeks
4. Equal pay- This was law in 1970 before the UK joined the EU
5. Wages- The EU has no minimum wage unlike the UK and we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world
6. Discrimination- The UK had laws on sex(1975)and race(1965) discrimination long before the EU
7. Health and Safety- We in the UK have some of the best health and safety at work and have since 1974. We all look in shock at working conditions when on holiday in the EU
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So we do make plenty of our own laws and are not dictated to by Brussels. Excellent, my Remain vote is secure.
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>> So we do make plenty of our own laws and are not dictated to by
>> Brussels. Excellent, my Remain vote is secure.
>>
In other words, we don't need them. My out vote is secure.
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JCB letter... says it rather nicely.
tinyurl.com/jo4u8th
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Yes, the JCB letter does. While it clearly explains his views, it does not harp on. Perhaps the clearest bit of thinking on the subject on either side.
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Jeez, what a relief. So everything we might worry about losing control of, it turns out we still control.
All that discrimination stuff, all that employment law, health and safety, in fact all that s*** that the Outies have been whining about hasn't been inflicted on us by the EU, its all our own law.
So really the primary thing the Outies bang on about, making our own laws, political correctness killing us from the EU, etc. etc. turns out we already have control and don't need to leave to get it.
So now we can just focus on the good stuff that even though the outies say we will still have without knowing how, we can just stay as we are and keep for certain.
What a relief.
Thank goodness we have dodgy Roger to dispel these myths, bit surprised the plank dispelled the very myths he's been putting forward though.
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What Roger says is absolutely right. What he doesn't realise is that these could be chopped to well below the EU minimum requirements at the stroke of a Tory pen. You really need to get a grip of this. I'm glad I've no children to inherit Roger's vision, I really am.
Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 9 Jun 16 at 21:28
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>> Jeez, what a relief. So everything we might worry about losing control of, it turns
>> out we still control.
>>
>> Thank goodness we have dodgy Roger to dispel these myths, bit surprised the plank dispelled the very myths he's been putting forward though.
I deliberately have been trying not to be personally rude, but once again you have shown what a nasty person you are.
Perhaps, based solely on your postings here, I should make a psychological summary of why you think as you do. You've been vocal (and wrong) enough, about my motives, after all.
Hmm.
How's this?
A British expat, made sour and bitter because only in a foreign country can he fool business people into hiring his services, as they have a misguided notion that a UK "expert" is better than a home grown one.
Probably resentful of his wife's professional status, too.
Rude enough for you?
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Ha ha ha I guess I scored then. AGAIN!!
Chuckle chuckle.
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All these years I've lived in the UK I am really surprised how anti immigration or immigrants so many people are.
I used to have a taste of it when I first arrived as a youngster.Usually the K r a u t comment behind my back.
After more than 40 years living here because I don't have a UK passport I have no vote in this decision regarding a referendum.Strange behaviour towards foreigners.
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It is strange. Of course it is not limited to the UK, but it does seem a much more "main stream" and acceptable attitude than it is in other countries.
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The English have always been, I guess by definition, an insular people Dutchie wth a mistrust for all things foreign. Not our most pleasing trait.
If there was a similar referendum in The Netherlands do you think non nationals would be able to vote?
If I understand correctly expats in the Netherlands are not eligible to vote for either Parliamentary or Provincial elections.
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>>All these years I've lived in the UK I am really surprised how anti immigration or immigrants so many people are.<,
I don't think people mind Immigrants as such, it's just those that take the "P" (and everything else) by arriving in (to Quote Cameron) "Swarms", don't follow the proper intake rules, and put other peoples lives and livelihoods on the line. You don't get French, German, Dutch etc jumping wagons, setting up migrant camps, and doing everything "by hook or crook" to get here. It is usually inhabitants of the poorer counties i.e Poland, Asia, Romania, Syria etc. that cause the problems, and people are sick to the teeth of it! Something needed to be done, Cameron and his cronies have done B/all! except pander to them and the Euro-chiefs. If he had managed this like a proper head of Government, there would have been no out campaign, as folk would probably been happier with things as they were. He's brought all this on the Country, and you " Inies" are backing him up!
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I don't mind immigrunts as such [apart from Nederlanders] in fact I have a bunch of Bulgarians livin in caravans wivin 3 minutes walk of my isolated moorland quintessential Cornish country cottidge - can you adam & eve it!!
Well, howls about this then, their mail is delivered to my owse, addressed to a Mr Ceausescu or somesuch and, what do I do about it, being as I'm about as xenophobic as any good bad Kipper could be ...
I ask postie to deliver their mail to them :o)
I have abso-lutely no problem with anybuddy coming to 'my' country (legally) to seek work (even Nederlanders)
But what I don't want is uncontrolled immigration, which is precisely what we get by being members of the sclerotic European Union.
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Yes, and without the meddling EU and all those nasty immigrants we'll have £350m a week to spend on making the NHS all warm and cosy for the nice old white lady in the Outie TV ad. Won't we? That is true, isn't it, Dog?
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>>without the meddling EU and all those nasty immigrants we'll have £350m a week to spend on making the NHS all warm and cosy for the nice old white lady in the Outie TV ad
What is it you find nasty about all-those immigrants Will, I think we need to know. I find them quite amiable ya know, why only yesterday a crowd of them wished me добро утро.
:}
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>> If he had managed this like a proper head of Government, there would have been no out campaign, as folk would probably been happier with things as they were.
Oh the impact is *much* wider than that.
If the politicians of the world had behaved properly, stuck to their promises, been responsible, truthful, listened to the people, understood who they worked for, etc. etc. then there is a whole bunch of things which wouldn't exist now;
Trump, Farage and the EU Referendum being just three of them.
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>>If the politicians of the world had behaved properly, stuck to their promises, been responsible, truthful, listened to the people, understood who they worked for, etc. etc<<
The impossible dream would have been realised!
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>> >>All these years I've lived in the UK I am really surprised how anti immigration
>> or immigrants so many people are.<,
>>
>> I don't think people mind Immigrants as such, it's just those that take the "P"
>> (and everything else) by arriving in (to Quote Cameron) "Swarms", don't follow the proper intake
>> rules,
If one were inclined to vote Leave because of 'immigration' it's probably a useful exercise ti think through which migrants/immigrants Brexit will stop.
We might be able to reduce the number of Poles, Hungarians, Romanians etc arriving here to work. However the Govt's lack of success in reducing the Non EU migration it can control to 'tens of thousands' might point another way. If the economy needs those people then a government, least of all one committed to the free economy, may struggle to buck the market. Indians instead of Poles?
What Brexit cannot do is control the exodus from Syria or those arriving in camps in France or seeking other illicit entry to UK.
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It has been suggested that there are 2 further areas where Brexit could make further vote changing policy promises.
www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-vote-leave-s-immigration-based-points-based-system-is-utter-nonsense-a7059386.html
This will be extended to include the uk expats who have lived abroad for over 15 years, (and are not eligible to vote anyway), and will only be allowed to return to the uk if they qualify under the 'points system'. This will also effectively exclude those from Spain for example, who will be classified as economic migrants with limited assets. It may be further extended to apply retrospectively, with the enforced emigration of those who have returned in the last 7 years to prevent an increasing burden on the NHS.
It has also been shown that the UK weather pattern changes experienced in the last decade have a high degree of correlation with the rise in immigration. Bringing immigration under control could have have a major effect on the climate, with a return to the hacyon days of 1976. www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2117805/Its-gone-legend--summer-1976-really-great.html
;)
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Sat 11 Jun 16 at 03:26
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Good spot, Sherlock. One key fact here is that the NHS can't recruit the staff it needs in the UK. Even if it had the £350m a week we all know it couldn't, to keep the sweet old white lady from coughing in the waiting room it would have to recruit people from overseas.
So if immigration supplies the workforce for the NHS, and makes a net contribution towards the cost of it, what exactly do the Outies want to change?
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Your argument is just a fallacious as that of the supporters of "Leave surely". Not all the 300,000 immigrants , or whatever the number is, to the UK each year work in the NHS nor indeed do they all contribute in any significant fashion to the economy.
It would seem perfectly possible in theory to reduce the number of immigrants without harming either the economy or the NHS
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Did you not notice the smiley that Sherlock added after that tripe?
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>> So if immigration supplies the workforce for the NHS, and makes a net contribution towards
>> the cost of it, what exactly do the Outies want to change?
>>
Once again...
... you CHOOSE who your immigrants are.
So you don't let in all and sundry, esp those who would be a burden. You DO let in those that would contribute to society.
So if you need workers for the NHS, no problem in they come.
I know it is too convenient for you to just say it's anti immigration.. however, in reality it's anti uncontrolled immigration that is the problem.
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>> So you don't let in all and sundry, esp those who would be a burden.
>> You DO let in those that would contribute to society.
How many EU migrant workers are, or will become, a burden?
They have very limited access to out of work benefits and being on whole young and healthy are more likely to sustain the NHS than burden it.
And it's not just the NHS that needs workers. Every major store chain from Waitrose to Poundland has distribution centres within a 15mile radius of where I sit now. So do all the courier/logistics operators. Without migrant workers your supermarkets shelves would empty and you'd be whistling for any part your car might need.
A fortnight ago I was in a hotel on the Suffolk coast. Dining room staff were practically all from EU.
They're far more exploited by, amongst others, employers and landlords then any impost they place on you or me.
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www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html
One of the latest polls, take believe or disbelieve, however that's a big gap and other polls do show movement towards leaving.
I did think it would be 55/45 to remain, i can honestly say I'm not so sure now. I think leaving is a very real possibility.
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"I think leaving is a very real possibility."
Looks like the City thinks so too. FTSE down 1.86% at close yesterday.
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Sir James Dyson says Britain would gain more from leaving the EU than it would lose.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36505735
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On the Times front page today "Germany has warned that it will shut Britain out of the single market if voters opt for Brexit in the European Union referendum.
"Wolfgang Schäuble, the finance minister, said the bloc would still work without the United Kingdom and that “at some point the British will realise they have taken the wrong decisionâ€.
He goes on to say that the rest of a EU would interpret a vote for Brexit as a decision against the single market.
Also that the idea that Britain could negotiate a deal that allowed the benefits of the single market without being an EU member would be unworkable.
"it would require the country to abide by the rules of a club from which it currently wants to withdraw. If the majority in Britain votes for Brexit, that would be a decision against the single market. In is ion. Out is out. One has to respect the sovereignty of the British people"
I can see his point of view, if we leave then we've stuck two fingers up at Europe, and we'll get what we deserve.
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>> "Wolfgang Schäuble, the finance minister, said the bloc would still work without the United Kingdom
>> and that “at some point the British will realise they have taken the wrong decisionâ€.
>>
>> He goes on to say that the rest of a EU would interpret a vote
>> for Brexit as a decision against the single market.
>>
>> Also that the idea that Britain could negotiate a deal that allowed the benefits of
>> the single market without being an EU member would be unworkable.
>>
>> "it would require the country to abide by the rules of a club from which
>> it currently wants to withdraw. If the majority in Britain votes for Brexit, that would
>> be a decision against the single market. In is ion. Out is out. One has
>> to respect the sovereignty of the British people"
...yes and when BMW wants to sell their cars here, etc.... then Wolfgang Schäuble will either change his tune, dramatically..or will be voted out.
Have a look at the Telegraph link I posted re James Dyson, at 0949. His graphs re EU exports to here. Do you really think they'd let that lot go down the pan? I don't.
Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 11 Jun 16 at 09:53
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>>Germany has warned that it will shut Britain out of the single market if voters opt for Brexit
That would make me even more determined to vote to leave the European dictatorship, if I hadn't already done so over a week ago.
They are trying to scare us into remaining in their sclerotic superstate, but it wont wash us Brexiteers.
The more cobblers they come out with, the more it pushes waverers towards the vote leave camp.
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"That would make me even more determined to vote to leave the European dictatorship, if I hadn't already done so over a week ago. "
...and that, Dog, is IMO the number one reason why ordinary ought not be being given the choice. That isn't a responsible or sensible attitude but it's one which so many people seem to be taking - they will vote against the way the message is presented or the messenger just because they don't like them, nothing to do with what the message is.
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"they will vote against the way the message is presented or the messenger just because they don't like them, nothing to do with what the message is."
It works on both sides of the argument; some will have been put off 'exit' because they don't like Nigel or Boris. I can't say that either of them are exactly my cup of tea.
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I realise that Haywain but I wasn't making a point about either side, it was a general point about the (jn)ability (or more likely unsuitability) of the general public to reach an informed conclusion, based on logical and rational discussions and untainted by personal likes and dislikes.
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>>
...and that, Dog, is IMO the number one reason why ordinary ought not be being given the choice. That isn't a responsible or sensible attitude but it's one which so many people seem to be taking - they will vote against the way the message is presented or the messenger just because they don't like them, nothing to do with what the message is.
A thumbs up from me smokie, I can only but agree with you there, ditto Haywain and his 'works both ways' of course.
Perhaps 'ordinary' people shouldn't choose which party sets up home in Downing St. either, and we'd all be better orf under a plutocracy, oh, hang on, we are anyway!
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LOL Dog, lucky I don't take you too literally.
We have already voted in the people to govern us, I don't see why they couldn't use that mandate to decide on the EU.
(I wonder what the result would be if they did?)
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Interesting. That's just the Tories though.
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>> Sir James Dyson says Britain would gain more from leaving the EU than it would
>> lose.
>>
.. and this one
www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/
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>>...yes and when BMW wants to sell their cars here, etc.... then Wolfgang Schäuble will either change his tune, dramatically..or will be voted out.
My tiny bit of field research recently was to check the 11 vehicles parked at our little local shopping centre. There three VWs , an Audi, a Smart Car and a BMW. The remaining five were British, if you count two Vauxhall delivery vans.
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P.S. Anyone recall the protests here about two years ago when I said that "Germany *must* dominate"?
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>> P.S. Anyone recall the protests here about two years ago when I said that "Germany
>> *must* dominate"?
Yes, it's been part of the outie shtick since 1975. Still no real proof though. Schauble is just stating the bloomin obvious.
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>> .. and this one
I think he also said something along the lines of it would be a disaster if we didn't join the euro.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 11 Jun 16 at 21:06
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Dyson's attitude my also be influenced by fact that (IIRC) he has offshored production to the far east.
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>> I think he also said something along the lines of it would be a disaster
>> if we didn't join the euro.
>>
The EU as it was, the EU now or the EU as many within would like it to be?
I'd hazard many beer vouchers it is the former and he's now, understandably, changed his mind... as have many.
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>> The EU as it was, the EU now or the EU as many within would
>> like it to be?
Surely the Euro was one of the key milestones in the integration or so called USofE project. Putting the proposition that it was something sort of OK at time is like those who decry today's lefties and pretend everybody thought Tony Benn was a decent old cove.
Dyson's view is perhaps biased by his business interests. At inception of the Euro his factories were still in EU and removing exchange rate uncertainty suited him.
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The EU as it was, the EU now or the EU as many within would
>> like it to be?
>>
>> I'd hazard many beer vouchers it is the former and he's now, understandably, changed his
>> mind... as have many.
>>
That's some conversion from being so pro eu to wanting to leave in a fairly short space of time. And the eu has hardly changed that much nor its direction.
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>>>>
>> That's some conversion from being so pro eu to wanting to leave in a fairly
>> short space of time. And the eu has hardly changed that much nor its direction.
>>
>>
He passed Corbyn going in the opposite direction.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sat 11 Jun 16 at 12:25
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A new threat. The current Canard Enchâiné claims that 51% of Brits are for Brexit and that an out result would mean we would no longer be able to take part in the Euro football championship.
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and that an out result would mean we would no longer be able to take part in the Euro football championship.
Oh good, I hate football anyway.
Rugby: A thugs game played by gentlemen
Football: A gentlemens game played by thugs
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EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Manatee
