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Debate Continues.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 28 Jun 16 at 02:12
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For anyone interested.
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
"EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum
We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."
Chances of that are probably somewhere between no hope and Bob Hope. But this petition is already up to 317,000 in less than one day and currently garnering about 1,000 signatures per minute, so it might help to convince somebody that it's not just the Leavers who have to be considered from this point on.
The petition website can barely cope and periodically comes up with a maintenance message - prob just limiting connections rather than actually falling over.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 24 Jun 16 at 22:37
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A retrospective vote changing rule because you didn't like the result?
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>> A retrospective vote changing rule because you didn't like the result?
Not my petition. I merely draw your attention to it and leave it up to you.
I don't know whether there is such a rule, or whether the petition proposes it.
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I didn't think you did. :)
Merely asking the question.
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Oh I see what you mean. Yes, sorry.
I might have had enough of this for today!
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There is no such rule, hence 'to implement a rule...' rather than 'to enforce the rule...' The petition dates from last month, to judge from its November expiry date, but has reached its 100,000 threshold for a debate only today.
Makes little sense, as the rule would require either a 60% share for either side or a 75% turnout for the result to be valid, neither of which looks achievable from yesterday's numbers. It could trap us in an endless cycle of referenda, which wouldn't really help anything.
I signed it anyway. Petty disruption is one of the few tactics we have left.
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How about we let the Welsh leave the EU/UK... how do the overall figures look then? Can the rest of us stay?
It's called thinking outside the box I think :-)
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No we let the Welsh and English leave the EU and leave Scotland and Ireland in it as that's how they voted.
Of course that also means breaking up the UK so might as well let England and Wales go independent as well!
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I'm taking some small comfort from the 55:45 Remain vote (on an 81% turnout) in my area. So maybe those Saturdays in the market square did some good.
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>> Ireland in
Republic or NI? Are you suggesting the unite straight away?
My suggestion was tongue in cheek. I don't think the Welsh vote if ignored made enough of a difference.
Iechyd da.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 01:06
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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
Now past 2 million signatures. There were 10,000 when I first saw this yesterday.
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>> Now past 2 million signatures. There were 10,000 when I first saw this yesterday.
Well on way to 2.25m
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>> petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
>>
>> Now past 2 million signatures. There were 10,000 when I first saw this yesterday.
>>
Anyone seriously think there will be another referendum?
And two million a fraction of the 17 million who voted to leave.
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>> And two million a fraction of the 17 million who voted to leave.
And a similar fraction of those voting remain, already twice the margin by which 'leave' won
The point is that the margin of victory was not sufficient to justify irreversible change - look at protections sates such as US etc require before amending the constitution.
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There is an argument that the petitions rules should have been applied from the word go. But they weren't and to try and get a second referendum, because you didn't like the result of the first one is desperately poor sportsmanship.
The whole remain campaign has been based on calling the 'leavers', idiots so much so, I've just taken an absence from a car email group. Thankfully the other one I manage hasn't even mentioned it, so I'll cross my fingers and keep quiet.
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>> There is an argument that the petitions rules should have been applied from the word
>> go. But they weren't and to try and get a second referendum, because you didn't
>> like the result of the first one is desperately poor sportsmanship.
It's not sport, it's constitutional reform; much more serious.
Parliament should have had this covered at Second Reading or in Committee. That they didn't is either negligence, incompetence or political micawberism.
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>>Anyone seriously think there will be another referendum?
No, I don't.
But consider this. This was an advisory referendum, binding on the government only by Cameron's promise. The government arguably has a mandate to do what reflects the referendum result.
If the government has any sense, it will take note of the fact that the vote was very close. There's no certainty that the all of the 52% wanted total separation (i.e. total independence from the EU, not for example the Norway option) or for that matter that the the whole 48% were all totally satisfied with the EU as it is.
The closeness of the vote IMO should inform the type of arrangements sought, and also what might be offered by the EU. Ignore Juncker's "no concessions"; the toothpaste is out of the tube now and other members are restless. The result has created a new playing field.
The EU will make tough noises because they want to hold the line as near as possible, but there will inevitably IMO be some changes to a politically fractured alliance after this.
We don't need one of the hard line Leave politicians to take over as PM, although it might happen of course. What we need is a PM and a team who who want to unite the UK by acting impartially in the interests, including the make-up of the referendum result, as best they can.
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>> >>
>> We don't need one of the hard line Leave politicians to take over as PM,
>> although it might happen of course. What we need is a PM and a team
>> who who want to unite the UK by acting impartially in the interests, including the
>> make-up of the referendum result, as best they can.
>>
The best result would be for the EU to realise the game is up as far as a Federal European state is concerned, ditch the Euro and, unlimited free movement and revert to an economic union rather than a political one. That would satisfy nearly all of us who voted to leave and quell the growing resentment in many other EU states which is threatening to tear the whole thing apart. Contrary to what many here would like to believe the outers are not small minded xenophobes, do value a lot of what the union is about but find the way it is heading to be unpalatable.
For a government to simply ignore the result and carry on regardless as if nothing had happened is incomprehensible. That would tear the country apart in a way that would take decades to recover from and destroy any faith in the whole democratic process. The government offered the referendum, and if they don't like the result it is up to them (And the EU) to find a compromise that is acceptable.
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>> And two million a fraction of the 17 million who voted to leave.
Pendant Corner
Any number can be a fraction of any other number.
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The referendum implies a massive constitutional change for the UK. On the number voting out as a proportion of eligible members (ie the whole electorate) an identical outcome would not be sufficient to legitimise a strike by tube drivers.
www.gov.uk/government/news/new-strike-thresholds-for-important-public-services
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I also suspect that an army of QCs and forensic accountants are going over the legalities and the spending of the campaigns with a view to challenging the result. In fact I'd be amazed if there were not.
May or may not be successful but another reason not to file the divorce petition forthwith.
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Looks like some remainers have difficulty accepting the democratic result.
In last election UKIP got third highest vote and more than combined Libdem + SNP vote but with just one seat.
But nobody thought that was inacceptable and rule should change from FFTP to proportional representation.
But when these so-called liberal people don't get the result they want they are behaving like bigots by challenging legality, asking for another referendum, why should I suffer for your decision etc etc
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>> But when these so-called liberal people don't get the result they want they are behaving
>> like bigots by challenging legality, asking for another referendum, why should I suffer for your
>> decision etc etc
Movi,
The decision is what it is. Nobody expected it least of all the 'shell shocked' Bojo. It's going to take a long time to move forward in the aftermath.
I'm simply making (a) an observation about two pieces of legislation on voting procedures and (b) predicting a legal challenge.
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I'm happy with the vote I cast and my reasons for casting it. What I've been posting here is intended to investigate the idea that a significant fraction of the electorate vote Leave but might now wish it hadn't.
We knew the Leave side was lying about several things during the campaign, but now they've got the votes they're starting to admit that they won't be delivering what they promised.
- £350m a week to the NHS: 'a mistake'
- Reduce net migration: 'we never promised'
- Stop EU making UK laws: 'We'll still need them to trade with Europe'
There will probably be more. Point is, some may feel their vote was earned by false Leave promises. If it turns out 700,000 people feel that way, can we still consider the result safe and satisfactory - given that, as Bromp brilliantly points out, it wouldn't be enough to secure a Tube strike, never mind a seismic constitutional and economic upheaval?
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>> The referendum implies a massive constitutional change for the UK.
>>
Any referendum implies a massive constitutional change in the UK because as I keep pointing out, it is not in our tradition and conflicts with our established parliamentary representative concept of democracy.
Those who started the craze for referendums should have been more careful what they wished for, as Nicola Sturgeon is just beginning to realise.
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Indeed
She looked completely at sea on the TV like the woman whose worst dreams had now come true.
She now has to get Westminster to agree to another referendum for independence and that is just one thing.
2 years ago when she promised a Jockanese Utopia it was based on the spending of oil revenues which were around $95 dollars a barrel and included a 2p tax rise. The oil price is now somewhere around $47 a barrel.
With the possibility of plentiful supplies of cheap oil from Iran she had better be careful what she promises. If they had become independent 2 years ago they would now be bankrupt by some £15 billion based on the spending plans they published.
Even if she gets (wants) and wins a referendum it is likely she will have to seek EU membership as a dependant rather than a contributor and that is a 30 step process since Maastricht.
Interesting days and for her timing will be all hence the "caught in the headlghts" look as she has no easy pill to offer the Scots who want to stay in.
Regards
Mark
Last edited by: Mark on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 18:05
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Not just Juncker Dog there are far right groups who want the whole lot to collapse.It might be funny in the pictures but in the real world it isn't.
They are not going to wait for the Tory party to make up its mind to chose a new leader are they.
That is taking the proverbial micky now the people have voted Johnson and co or Cameron whilst he is still there have to move.
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Ok here's where I am. I'm bitterly disappointed with the result. I deeply regret the situation it leaves with. A nation divided, families divided, friendships divided. On a personal level I feel utterly politically disenfranchised.
However, it is the result. We all have to learn to live with it. Unlike a general election, there's no going back in 4 years time. Our bed is made and we all have to lie in it. It behoves all of us to now try to make the best of this sorry mess.
We need to stop right now talking about the might have beens and the should haves and get on with our lives.
I will do my level best to succeed in this new era and in turn secure a future for myself, my family and my work colleagues.
My heart is heavy, I'm deeply concerned, I think we have made a dreadful mistake, but we have done it now and moaning about it any longer will achieve nothing. Working together to build a future is the only option.
Dipping out of this now. Too upset to dwell on it any longer and will now turn my attentions to how to best manage my affairs in the light of these changes.
Good luck and best wishes to everyone.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 09:48
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My sentiments entirely Runfer.
What I have also found quite thought provoking is one of my 19 year old twin student daughters, who were both solid 'Remains', is now looking at the possibility of applying for an Irish passport which by descent she tells me she could obtain.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 11:02
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>>one of my 19 year old
>> twin student daughters, who were both solid 'Remains', is now looking at the possibility of
>> applying for an Irish passport which by descent she tells me she could obtain.
There's a lot of that. An Irish parent or grandparent will do I think.
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>> looking at the possibility of applying for an Irish passport
Nothing to do with EU issue then. UK does not bar someone holding 2nd (or 3rd) passport.
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>> Nothing to do with EU issue then. UK does not bar someone holding 2nd (or
>> 3rd) passport.
Of course it's to do with EU. It allows those who can establish the Irish connection to retain freedom of movement/work we will lose on Brexit.
My Brother in law is doing exactly that but on basis of his long term residence in Cork rather than a family connection. He can then work in Irleland or France (where he also has a home).
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 12:34
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>> Of course it's to do with EU
How?
Mr X is eligible for Irish passport and already holds UK passport.
One morning Mr X decides to apply for Irish passport (for whatever reason).
The only thing Mr X can moan about now is the "application fee" for Irish passport.
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>> >> Of course it's to do with EU
>>
>> How?
For the reason I've already explained - to retain freedom of movement in the EU post Brexit.
You do know Ireland is in the EU don't you?
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>> > to retain freedom of movement/work we will lose on Brexit.
>>
Could someone just remind us what the position was before we joined the EEC/EU?
There always seemed to be plenty of British people living abroad - Spain, France etc.
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3 day weeks and electric cuts?
That will be the nostalgic view of good old GB then?
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 14:19
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And Maggie thatcher! - I rather hoped we'd learnt from our mistakes so why harp on about the Bad bits? There were good times too!
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Very few in Spain. Franco was in power.
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Europe isn't going to stop trading with us! - a 65M customer base is too big for any company to ignore. Trade will settle down after the knee-jerk reflex, plus we will have other trading markets as well. Some business will actually have the chance to do better, maybe Transport, with less foreign trucks on the roads. The Fishing and Farming industries may improve, with Farmers not being subsidised by E.U to keep fields fallow, more crops grown, cheaper food in shops. The only difference being is that instead of UK paying EU to subsidise the Industries, the Industries will have to start earning the money instead of sitting back holding their hands out. Most of the smaller businesses never see a subsidy or EU grant, yet seem to survive and thrive, time the bigger companies followed suit.
Last edited by: devonite on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 11:51
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That Doggo looks like a picture of Berlin last time they threatened us! - but look at the "Power-house" (Cameron Quote) that they have become now, and at the time of their re-building there was no E.U either! - This is our re-building time, they've proven it can be done.
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>>This is our re-building time, they've proven it can be done.
With you on that one guvnor.
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>> there are far right groups who want the whole lot to collapse.It might be funny in the pictures but in the real world it isn't.
All the more reason for the fat cat bureaucrats to reform the EU - for the benefit of all 28 member states.
>>They are not going to wait for the Tory party to make up its mind to chose a new leader are they.
I think you'll find it's up to us to 'trigger' divorce proceedings.
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The EU want us out now that we voted out because delaying the process will lead to economic uncertainty and they are clearly trying to protect themselves. Who can blame them!?
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It's still more important do get it right than do it quickly. The HoC is on holiday fro 21/7 to 5/9, that won't help.
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I have signed the petition demanding 2nd referendum.
I have signed 4 times using following names.
Bigot Idiot
Sore Loser
Get Lost
Learn Democracy
Could have signed few more times but creating new email addresses for each one is a pain.
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"I have signed 4 times..."
You may be interested to know the petition is being investigated for fraud.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407
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I'd be surprised if fraud accounts for a large proportion of the votes. Half the voters are angry at the result.
The petition was Facebook driven from Friday morning when it only had 10,000 signatures, and has propagated geometrically.
The distribution map is a bit weird though. City of London Westminster has 45,000 signatories. The population of the City is c. 7,000 and of Westminster c 200,000. Maybe it's just people using a work postcode, maybe not.
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>>I have signed 4 times
That is fraud. IP addresses are logged.
I hope that you have a good lawyer and like porridge!
;-)
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>> It's still more important do get it right than do it quickly. The HoC is
>> on holiday fro 21/7 to 5/9, that won't help.
>>
Getting it right is not always the first consideration in a divorce. Getting as much as you can out of it is usually the first priority!
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As in many divorces, one question is who will have the kids!? In this situation it is the expats. Will the EU citizens living here be thrown out, will the expats in Spain be sent packing? I hope not because it would make us as bad as Amin in Uganda!
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Already settled EU citizens in UK won't be asked to leave. It was stated in leave campaign.
However, we can't control on Brit expats in EU. In the worst case, if EU kicks them out then we have to accept them but at same time we can then kick out EU lots living in UK.
Since there are more EU migrants in UK than Brits in EU, it will be again hurt them more than us.
The bottom line is that, anything EU now does to discipline UK, will harm them more than us.
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So is it:
>> Already settled EU citizens in UK won't be asked to leave. It was stated in
>> leave campaign.
OR
>> if EU kicks them out then we have to accept them but at same time we can
>> then kick out EU lots living in UK.
There's a fundamental contradiction there surely?
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No contradiction - as of now EU citizens can continue to stay in UK and they will issued Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) status soon.
BUT, if there are other EU citizens without ILR status AND say Spain wants to kick out Brit expats from there, we can then kick out Spanish citizens from here (provided they don't hold ILR at that time).
Of course it won't be "kicking out" but could be exact same approach which is currently applicable to non-EU citizens working in UK be expanded to cover EU nationals as well.
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The Leave campaign are not HM Government. They cannot commit to any executive action, and the truth is no-one knows what will happen until negotiations are held.
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A flavour of the complexity of this issue, and an indication of the lack of resources (Whitehall policy staff greatly reduced!) is given here: www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/research/europe/index/edit/constitution-unit/research/europe/briefing-papers/briefing-paper-1
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>> The Leave campaign are not HM Government.
But will be.
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>> But will be.
Don't put your shirt on it.
Bojo is the heir presumptive but the Tory party has long history of electing another.
Thatcher is the obvious example.
BJ has also pi**ed off a lot of people and is a proven liar. There will also be a significant cohort in the Tory party who disapprove of his philandering.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 13:12
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Lets face it the "Parties" are now at war within themselves, maybe it's a good thing for Politics as well. Maybe we will get some "New" Parties forming whereby they all have the same song sheet.
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>> Lets face it the "Parties" are now at war within themselves, maybe it's a good
>> thing for Politics as well. Maybe we will get some "New" Parties forming whereby they
>> all have the same song sheet.
I think that's a serious possibility.
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The E.U is obviously not working right, otherwise the other Countries would not be discussing their options, Some-one needed the guts to make a stand and say "hey! enough's enough"! and Britain had them. We are classed as a "Mother" Country, and as any good parent we have shown the way. Maybe a better option would have been for the member Countries to have ousted the Brussels Bureaucrats!
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>> The E.U is obviously not working right, otherwise the other Countries would not be discussing
A point made effectively by Reamin as a reason to stay in and cleanse the stables.
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The only problem with cleaning is that often the Stains remain, sometimes you have to rip-up and replace.
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>> >> stay in and cleanse the
>> stables.
>>
Better to get out of the stables first before diverting the river through them :)
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Looks there will be plenty of kicking going on.
They are all P/off with us in the E.U.We are P/OFF with them nothing new here.Better check if my passport is still up do date,>:)
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>> .Better check if my passport is still up do date,>:)
>>
Why is that - so you can hurry home to take part in "Nexit" ?
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Actually I am now getting rather bored now by all the arguing and whining. It seems to be a new feature of this modern referendum democracy to start complaining about the result and trying to think of ways of challenging it.
My other thought is that once every few decades one is rather proud of the fighting instincts of the British labour-voting working class. Well done for swinging it :)
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Why not apply for Citizenship, we English aren't Racists you know! ;-)
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Already settled EU citizens in UK won't be asked to leave. It was stated in leave campaign.
Ah, good. Then it must be true.
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Regrexit saga: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324
Petition reaches 1 million almost overnight.
It seems bizarre that a very narrow majority could be accepted in the circumstances, given the unsavoury nature of the contest and the admitted "errors" by the leave brigade. Margin of error and all that!
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>> Regrexit saga: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324
>>
>> Petition reaches 1 million almost overnight.
>>
>> It seems bizarre that a very narrow majority could be accepted in the circumstances, given
>> the unsavoury nature of the contest and the admitted "errors" by the leave brigade. Margin
>> of error and all that!
>>
Would you say the same if the Remain side had won by a similar margin?
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>> Would you say the same if the Remain side had won by a similar margin?
In a matter of constitutional reform, which Brexit is, most Constitutions (see USA) require far more than a simple majority.
Anything less retains the status quo for fear of fomenting more trouble. That's what will happen next when those with, as someone put, it 'no skin in the game' realise Leave sold them a lie.
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We've already seen Leave's top two promises - £350m a week for the NHS, and reduced immigration - withdrawn. Without those two, how many of the 17.4m would still have voted Leave?
Is Leave now in panic, having won a vote they expected to lose? They had all the speeches prepared about having fought a good fight for the ordinary, decent people but the power of the elite was just too much. Bozza could have slotted back in behind Cameron as the leadership candidate who could reunite the party for the 2020 election, and Farage would have just gone, his flush busted, and stopped embarrassing them all. Now Johnson is on the spot and Cameron has outmanoeuvred him by saying 'over to you to make it work'.
Some of us have been saying all along that Leave appeared to have no plan. No-one stood up to prove us wrong. Can anyone do so now?
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sun 26 Jun 16 at 08:45
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Classic www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03zfw9m
So no £350m per week for the NHS and now no reduction in immigration!
What is the point in taking all of the risk for no reward!
Most of the outies I know were voting out to reduce immigration and increase spending on the NHS!
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Cracking clip zippy; Stephen Nolan is at his best in a 1:1 interview like that.
What Out is now saying is that a points system will allow immigration to rise if there's demand for extra employees. The party of business won't (indeed perhaps can't) buck the market anymore than they've been able to do for non EU skilled migrants.
And restriction by available work is much what happens now in practice. Severely limited access to out of work benefits, including Housing Costs, for EU migrants ensures that they cannot come here and b*m around at taxpayers' expense.
The points system for fruit pickers, warehouse operatives etc will be little more than certification of a job offer.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 25 Jun 16 at 17:16
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An Old Etonian Dave
Needed a Leadership Save
He sold us a pup
It all went t*ts up
And he left without even a wave.
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Reduce immigration or sending immigrants home who already here making a living.
Farage stirred the immigration pot.Always on about East Europeans working here.I came here before the UK was in the E.U.The reason I never requested a Britsh passport because we where in the E.U.I.am not going to bother now at the age of 67 messing about giving up my nationality.
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Former director of the CBI, Lord Digby Jones tells BBC Breakfast that the UK has a "golden opportunity" as it renegotiates its relationship with Europe:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxRYLVMSjE8
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So, cost of borrowing for the "ordinary man" likely to rise.
Another oops?
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36626201
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Does the panel think that the EU is likely to come up with a greatly improved package of conditions to try to keep the UK as a member as they have after other out referendum results?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 26 Jun 16 at 08:44
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Don't think so O.N.
People have voted out in the UK and this is binding.I think there will be hell to pay if the continentals ignore this.
The deed is done and now we need the right politicians to lead us forward.
What inproved package conditions? One of the main condition is controlled immigration from the E.U from the outers which they won't agree to.
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My reading of a a Beeb article seems to suggest anything between "backtracking", "rebranding" or simply "no material change") to a few of the things which they seem to think we hold dear ( specifically discussed are passports, freedom of movements/visa requirements, EHIC, ex-pat pensions, duty frees, driving licence, someone's Italian wife. (www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619817 )
That surely can't be right, otherwise what was the point of the whole exercise?
(Before I get too laid into, I DO realise there's more to it than that...)
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 26 Jun 16 at 12:22
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Smokie, you need to use your wand to edit the closing bracket which is causing link to return a 404 message.
ta, fixed
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 26 Jun 16 at 12:23
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>> That surely can't be right, otherwise what was the point of the whole exercise?
I would imagine free movement of people in EU will be a condition of any deal with the EU. So there was no point. The people who voted leave to get this will be sadly disappointed. Non-EU migration had nothing to do with the referendum - could/should have control of that anyway.
In South Wales the TATA steel deal for Port Talbot was threatened to be off if we voted out. It's now off. And the people of that area voted out. So they have voted to prevent any such deal and they will now be out of work soon. Serious implications for the area.
I can quote one person indirectly in South Wales relating to how we'll be as a country after we leave the EU. He said 'well we won two world wars on our own' which of course is wrong... So much for giving the more stupid populous this vote.
Oh well we'll just have to get on with it. Maybe we can get the help of the EU migrants that will keep coming to help get us out of the mess.
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>> Does the panel think that the EU is likely to come up with a greatly
>> improved package of conditions to try to keep the UK as a member as they
>> have after other out referendum results?
My guess is that there will be some sort of deal on associate Membership, perhaps involving the other sceptic non Euro countries in same way. Whether it will be greatly improved is another question.
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>>Hopefully she will now backtrack from demanding another Scottish referendum.
>>
She knows that the economy is the key issue, and that Scotland is not self sufficient at current levels of spending. Being blinded by extremism was Salmond's downfall.
Like all politicians Nicola Sturgeon has to be seen to be doing something (anything) to maintain the support of the independence faction.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 26 Jun 16 at 09:08
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>> Like all politicians Nicola Sturgeon has to be seen to be doing something (anything) to
>> maintain the support of the independence faction.
Speculation that Scotland might have, at least theoretically, a veto on Brexit - via need for legislative consent order in Scottish Parliament:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244
So perhaps there are some constitutional protections after all. Don't know if consent of NI Assembly is needed too; slightly different model of devolution there.
Not first time Westminster/Whitehall has tripped up over failure to understand the devolution settlement. Got an extra two years on my pension in time it took to sort out another (relatively minor) example. That one didn't involve NI as the Quango was GB only.
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Not to mention the Referendum has no more constitutional status than an opinion poll. Indeed Ireland had 2 referenda on the Lisbon Treaty. The second due to the need to make the implications more clear.
Here is a reference to the earlier referendum and the caveat given by the Government of the time. www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-why-we-may-remain-even-if-we-vote-leave-a3272621.html
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>> Here is a reference to the earlier referendum and the caveat given by the Government
>> of the time. www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-why-we-may-remain-even-if-we-vote-leave-a3272621.html
Tony Hilton writes a lot of good stuff.
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Looks like the next political earthquake is under way:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/hilary-benn-revolt-jeremy-corbyn
Benn and Heidi Alexander gone, most of Shadow Cabinet to follow.
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If Scotland applied direct to the EU for membership I can see some of its officials might be keen for revenge reasons, but would they want it on economic grounds?
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Who are they, the Jocks or the Eurocrats?
Scotland might not make the cut as a country that would receive net payments from the EU - I suspect not, so whilst they would get the benefit of the customs free area, freedom of movement of people and capital, and having laws made for them they might have to pay. I dare say they will want all of the national debt to remain with UK to give them a start, but it doesn't look good.
I have never understood the SNP's rejection of "rule from Westminster" where Scotland has 10% of the MPs, sits with its apparently blind love for the EU in which it might get 2 or 3%.
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Funny that Scotland hates Westminster so much. It is them and London who are so pro EU.
This fact should make them love being ruled by London :o)
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>>Funny that Scotland hates Westminster so much.
It is well rumoured that the Scots have always hated the English, but they know that to bite the hands that feeds them would be stupid, and they are not, that's why the first independence vote failed. They knew most of England would probably vote out especially the Northern areas close to them, that's why they unanimously voted in, they thought they could keep two hands feeding them. Now we are gone, they are desperate to keep one hand in the Trough, that's why they now want to dump us and be part of the E.U.
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Question raised elsewhere - if the Jocks leave, what will 'Great Britain/United Kingdom' be called?
I'd nominate 'Avalon', but that is too Bryan Ferry
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>> I'd nominate 'Avalon',
>>
........Albagon......?
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>> So much for the petition
I'm sure any such petition is susceptible to interference. The intention is for a simple interface to encourage participative democracy; it doesn't need multi-level security.
Even if all the non UK signatories are removed it still has 20 times the number needed to get some debate time in the commons. The number from Vatican City is almost certainly an issue with user/screen interface and the 'location' box in the sign-up screen. Even using a full size PC/mouse it's pretty easy to mis-select.
On a phone it's probably a struggle to get right.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 26 Jun 16 at 15:33
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www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-second-eu-referendum-petition-was-started-by-rightwing-activist-who-backed-brexit-a3281026.html
Shambles is the only fitting description. A decision that should be made by Parliament, taking into account the poor protocol for the referendum, the misleading propaganda, and the regrets of those who didn't think before voting because for whatever reason, they were uninformed.
Hijacked or not the Brexiteer who started the petition has been hoist by his own petard…
If backtracking is good enough for the Leave contingent, it's good enough for all!
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Referendum Discussion - Vol 27 - Manatee
