...should be managed in England the way that they have been managed elsewhere; every time they stop anywhere they are not legally allowed, move them on. Every time you find a car uninsured or otherwise illegal, crush it, anyone convicted of a crime held in custody until the fine is paid, etc. etc.
Eventually they will change their ways or leave.
Dirty, thieving, scumbags.
There's little need for a change in the law in the UK, but a serious change in attitude insofar as enforcement is concerned would help.
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Rozzers are too frightened of any comeback including punch-ups at sites with people who don't give a "F".
Of course the Rozzers bosses won't back them up so if any kids are hurt then there will be hell to pay.
Councils even build them nice sites just out of town.
Same thing is happening with moped crime which is becoming rife in urban areas here.
Rozzers refuse to chase them because there is no support from superiors if the rider gets hurt - the Rozzer gets the blame.
There is even a video of a Rozzer getting hit round the helmet by moped riders.
metro.co.uk/video/biker-whacks-police-officer-head-motorway-1513109/?ito=vjs-link
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 21 Aug 17 at 01:49
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>> Councils even build them nice sites just out of town.
Of course they do, if you are going to rehabilitate and integrate snip you need to stop them moving around, at the very least so you can educate the kids.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 29 Jul 18 at 19:53
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>> Of course they do, if you are going to rehabilitate and integrate snip you
>> need to stop them moving around, at the very least so you can educate the
>> kids.
Waste of time. The girls get pulled out of school at anything from 11 upwards. They are married with kids at 16.
The parents never contribute anything to school trips or fundraising events. The kids are actively discouraged from mixing or socialising with settled kids.
It's their "culture" innit?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 29 Jul 18 at 19:54
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It's a PCSO. Nice bike though.
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Quite surprised to read this, coming from Mark, of all people.
"Do-As-You-Likeys" quite clearly echoes the word "p****s", which refers to the "travelling community".
Regarding this word, "... in the eyes of the law using it can even be deemed a racist offence..." (from tinyurl.com/4q7zl8)
Just saying.
(Even the swear filter doesn't seem to like it.)
Last edited by: Focal Point on Mon 21 Aug 17 at 07:57
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I have no issue with criticising people for their behaviour. Or even reviling them for it.
Surely the " travelling community" is just that, a community. Or a group. One doesn't have to be born into that group or related to it, just behave like it. Perhaps Focal Point struggles with the difference, as he does with so much. Really, you would think he would be able to talk about issues rather than always the writers. Perhaps Focal Point has certain difficulties that we should be tolerant of, perhaps even sympathetic to.
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I have sympathy with this group. Imagine the insult of having been turned down by Great Yarmouth.
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"Perhaps Focal Point struggles with the difference, as he does with so much. Really, you would think he would be able to talk about issues rather than always the writers. Perhaps Focal Point has certain difficulties that we should be tolerant of, perhaps even sympathetic to."
Ooh. Ouch.
Touched a nerve, did I? I'm frightfully sorry, old boy. I could really do with your sympathy.
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I am surprised that Focal Point is trying schoolboy sarcasm. Perhaps Focal Point has run out of anything else. I wonder why Focal Point bothers to write anything really.
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There is no racism at work. The travellers in the Uk are not a race, merely wandering groups who chose to stay off the grid so they can pursue their criminal and non society contribution ways.
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>> There is no racism at work. The travellers in the Uk are not a race,
>> merely wandering groups who chose to stay off the grid so they can pursue their
>> criminal and non society contribution ways.
Romany is certainly a race/ethnicity. Many, including the Irish Government, say Irish Travellers (which are the group I see round here) are an ethnic group too.
Which is not to say there are not groups who chose to stay off the grid so they can pursue their criminal and non society contribution ways. You just need to be careful about conflating them with others.
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>> Romany is certainly a race/ethnicity. Many, including the Irish Government, say Irish Travellers (which are
>> the group I see round here) are an ethnic group too.
The true Roma are an ethnic group, few of them, in comparison, are in the current traveller groups. Irish they may be, no one is having a go at the irish as an ethnic group, merely those who rampage round the country being anti social and criminal. I am sorry to say thats most of those who you see "Traveling"
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Many moons ago I started seeing a lovely young Maiden, and was the envy of many of my friends at the time, the only problem was that she was a "Travelers" daughter! At the time it caused quite a bit of grief, as she wanted to start living a normal life and leave the travelling life behind her, her family did not like it one bit! however to cut a long story short, she broke away and we got a flat together, and started to become a "couple". It soon became apparent that she had "problems" the main one being that she was an out and out kleptomaniac! - she stole anything from anybody! and didn't see any wrong in it! - if she wanted it (or not) she took it! this was so deep seated in her mind that it must have been bred into her! there was no chance she could become a "normal?" person she was a different species!
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>>It soon became apparent that she had "problems" the main one being that she was an out and out kleptomaniac!
Pity she wasn't a nymph, ike, knowlmean ;)
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I don't think there is any doubt it is insulting today, whether it is racist would depend on the context.
I don't know what prompted the topic - maybe the "lockdown" in Cromer?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-40990174
What is reported there is fairly typical of what happens when a gathering of the bad kind of traveller pitches up in a town centre, meadow, park, sports field etc without permission. We all know what they are when we see them, nobody wants them because of the nuisance, the damage they cause, the costs they impose.
Or possibly
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4808738/Villagers-force-group-travellers-sports-field.html
where 200 villagers confronted a group of travellers who pitched up at a recreation ground. The police arrived, threatened the protesters with dogs and issued a dispersal order.
There are travellers hereabouts at the moment, extra chains and obstacles have appeared at field entrances. It's years since a sort of ha-ha was created to prevent access to a very wide local verge that had been an irregular stop - it affected local pubs (they closed for the duration, as much as two or three weeks) brought a rash of thievery, and left a huge mess of litter, human waste and the odd trashed caravan.
There is a field access track next to my house - the gate is not normally locked but I put a lock and chain on it a few weeks ago. It's not my field (I have access to my garden via the track) and it wouldn't stop anyone for long but it's better than nothing. They'd have to cut a fence at the other end and there are cows in there at the moment so we should be OK
Do-as-you-likeys seems an apt description. The police don't seem to be able to deal with them so everybody just tries to make sure they go somewhere else. A typical police reaction to illegal occupation is to say it is a civil matter. The also applies to councils - I don't know whether anything has changed but it used to be the case that councils had not only to get a court order to remove them, they also had duty to enquire into the general health and welfare of the trespassers and the education of any children present. Hence the delays in moving them on.
Round here the locals call them "diddies", which is in much the same category as p****s. To refer to the criminal, trespassing kind of itinerants as "travellers" doesn't really adequately convey the full meaning I suppose.
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"Do-as-you-likeys seems an apt description."
Cromer citizens interviewed on Look East this evening didn't seem to think that the police were anything but utterly useless.
The police and the councils won't do anything about the issue because it's all part of multiculturalism innit? Embrace it ......... but buy some good padlocks.
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Living close to one of the main routes to Appleby along the A65, my two police friends ( both recently retired) have a wealth of stories to tell.
The brazen cheek in stealing stuff had to be seen to be believed.
Rarely were any ever prosecuted, and the mess they left behind whilst en route......
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Back in the eighties when I worked for a London borough travellers were a common problem during the summer months, pitching up on common land or sports grounds. It was the devil of a job to shift them and the mess they left behind was unbelievable and took months to clear up. If there were any buildings such as sports pavilions they were invariably wrecked, copper wiring and pipes would all be stripped off along with any lead on the roofs.
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One day last year I was at the local ALDI store and there were 4 caravans (no tow cars) in the car park and kids playing. I stopped and spoke to the security guard nearby.
Turns out he'd been called upon that day when they arrived (not saying they were proper travellers) and the group were moving around the country and stopping in ALDI car parks. He'd attended a few. He said they'd be off somewhere collecting metal and would soon disappear when they had collected enough gear. And they did.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 21 Aug 17 at 23:33
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There are two problems here;
1) is how does a modern society cope with a nomadic sub-section that wishes to travel around as a group. People who travel with no fixed abode obviously create problems in enforcing the ordinary rules that apply to a static population, such as vehicle registration, insurance, education, national insurance, income tax, etc.
Should they be exempt from these rules, or should the rules be enforced equally? Society doesn't know whether to turn a blind eye, or create an official separate status.
2) is how to cope with any infringement of rules perceived as being over-represented by a particular group - ethnic, religious, or occupation. We see that with cases like the Rotherham abuse, etc. Should society turn a complete blind eye to these differences, and simply refer to all such individuals as merely "people" or "suspects", in a way that it is impossible distinguish common factors such as race?
And if there is a problem, how would you ever address it if it is unacceptable to investigate it?
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"Should they be exempt from these rules, or should the rules be enforced equally?"
No-one should not be exempt and the rules should be applied irrespective of whether offenders belong to an identifiable group.
"Should society turn a complete blind eye to these differences, and simply refer to all such individuals as merely "people" or "suspects", in a way that it is impossible distinguish common factors such as race?"
This is much more difficult. The question supposes that race might be a "common" or identifiable factor. I don't think that is the issue and I believe it is dangerous to equate "race" with "culture", when it is the latter that is the defining issue, not one's heritage or skin-colour.
My beef with the way this thread started is the fact that "Do-As-You-Likeys" appears as a thinly-disguised form of another pejorative and offensive word, used to define a particular social group, and my thought that it was a bit rich considering it came from someone who has loudly accused others of racism in the past.
While it may or may not have racial connotations it seems to me so close to the sort of mind-set that defines other groups within society by the use of offensive words (many of which ARE racist) as to raise questions about its use.
I'm not defending the appalling behaviour of some travelling communities and I never dispose of white goods or other metal waste by giving it to a guy ringing a bell from a truck, for example. (I believe that is now illegal, anyway. Not the bell bit. You know what I mean.) I've seen the mess that local authorities are landed with.
I just don't think it's right to slap an offensive label on people, which is the first step to prejudice and stigmatisation.
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>>how does a modern society cope with a nomadic sub-section that wishes to travel around as a group
I can think of no reason why they should not travel as a group. All we need do is enforce the exisiting laws to ensure that do-as-you-likeys realise that said laws exist and will be followed.
This idea that they can float about taking what they like, destroying or using what they want, obey such laws as they choose, and then simply moving along is unacceptable.
>is how to cope with any infringement of rules perceived as being over-represented by a particular group
Who cares? The law is the law. Obey it. You only need to worry if you are enforcing it differently depending on the person / group / subset involved. Provided it is evenly enforced, where is the issue?
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>>how does a modern society cope with a nomadic sub-section that wishes to travel around as a group
It's very easy. They need to comply with the laws, and they can. It's the non-compliance with the law that is the problem.
They can camp in municipal caravan sites, just like the rest of us can if we want to travel. They can home-school their children, just like the rest of us can. etc. etc.
What they may not do is to steal, to squat, to trespass or intimidate.
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>> It's very easy. They need to comply with the laws, and they can. It's the
>> non-compliance with the law that is the problem.
>>
>> They can camp in municipal caravan sites, just like the rest of us can if
>> we want to travel. They can home-school their children, just like the rest of us
>> can. etc. etc.
>>
>> What they may not do is to steal, to squat, to trespass or intimidate.
>>
I agree with that totally, the problem is that to comply in today's society they need a fixed abode, an address, so how do we enforce that upon them if they do not want it or will not accept it? Can we jail them for not agreeing that they will have a fixed address and/or not replying to comms sent to that address etc.
Or can we in this day an age accept a digital address, an email address or drop box, as an alternative?
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>>He said they'd be off somewhere collecting metal
you spelt stealing wrong there
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Indeed I did. When they'd 'collected' enough they'd move on.
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>> I don't think there is any doubt it is insulting today, whether it is racist
>> would depend on the context.
Exactly. Calling all Germans scum is racism, Calling all nazis scum isn't. Calling all men of Pakistani origin "child abusers or nonces" is racism, abusing those who have been found guilty isn't. Those who deliberately blur that distinction to extended that hatred to a whole racial group in an attempt to make outcasts of them all are racist.
When we are discussing the outrage and hatred of those who terrorise, are wilfully criminal both legally and socially and then moving on to escape retribution, calling them by an abusive term is perfectly understandable. On that note I have no hesitation of calling a spade a spade.
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If it had been me who had made the original post using that term, the majority of this forum (including the original poster) would have erupted in perceived indignation.
I call them travellers, as do most around here who know better than to antagonise them.
Pat
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No I wouldn't, I would have made some smart a*** comment about agreeing with you for once.
"Know better than to antagonise them"
Are you seriously saying that you can be intimidated out of voicing your opinion or that you are scared to tell them what you think of their behaviour?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 22 Aug 17 at 15:18
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"Really, you would think he would be able to talk about issues rather than always the writers."
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Bless. I see Focal Point is still trying. I see he appears to have given up trying to imply some sort of relationship or familiarity with me by using my Christian name, so that's a step forward.
I am a little surprised that Focal Point doesn't have his own life to worry about. But not very.
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Well, I've let this lie for a few hours, having a few other things to attend to (oh yes!), but there's little sign Mark is going to get to grips with the issues this thread has raised.
Perhaps he's ever so slightly embarrassed about starting it in the first place, at least in the terms in which it was expressed.
You don't really mind my calling you Mark, do you? I do realise people can be sensitive about all sorts of things.
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Does anybody else wonder about Focal Point's inability to discuss issues? Or should we just put it down to a lack of anything to say?
It seems a shame that he has just the one subject that interests him, I suppose I should be flattered, but in truth such overwhelming interest does rather make one wonder.
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Well, I made at least one substantial contribution to the issues under discussion.
You, on the other hand, are being repetitive and evasive.
Do you want to defend calling the travelling community by an offensive name (or thinly-disguised version of it), or not?
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>> Are you seriously saying that you can be intimidated out of voicing your opinion or
>> that you are scared to tell them what you think of their behaviour?
Well at least they're recognised by a name of their choosing. Perhaps the 'Pakis' need to express some antagonism too.........
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....and perhaps, just perhaps, both parties are genuinely expressing antagonism when they feel antagonised, instead of when someone else feels they should.
But, of course, that wouldn't fit the agenda, would it? Dog? Bone?
Pat
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Quite a good Telegraph comment on the behaviour from Do-as-you-likeys last weekend...
What lovely people.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/police-should-treat-travellers-do-everyone-else-not-tiptoe-around/
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I'm with Mark here. The bunch of lily livered liberals who keep scowling him take some believing. What world do you inhabit? Have any of you had any dealings with the travelling scum? They are all the same thieving filthy tax dodging wasters. Tarmac yer drive missus? Where do you think the money comes from to finance the very top of the range Merc's? You'll never find a tax return and the authorities don't give a toss because there us nothing to collect upon court action. There is nothing tangible like a house to take away and the 80k Merc will not be in their name and of course they decide they cannot speak the lingo very well. Dealing with them is akin to herding Cats!
Try entering a gypsy run ad hoc scrap operation in the metropolis. It won't happen. Not even normal plod will go in.
Some of you really need to face facts and stop walking blindly down the middle of the road.
P. S. Try attending one of the country's horse fairs and witness the unearned wealth and appalling behaviour of these animals. Then you might have some idea.
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What an expensive fence way into the distance.
tinyurl.com/ybfum9yn
Erected many years ago after the strip of grass
www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4308079,-0.4014999,253a,35y,280.03h,44.92t/data=!3m1!1e3
was used to park on by you know who with their Mercs etc.
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Our friends, who live 8 miles South of Appleby woke one morning at horse fair time to find all 4 doors, the seats and bonnet removed from their Land-Rover. It was parked in their field next to the house.
When we were fitting the new front door, I hears the merry music of the scrap man up the road. I flagged him down and told him I had some lead and steel and if he popped back in 30mins he could take it. Pleasant enough fella, bog Irish, he was back and I gave him a load of scaffolding tower, lead flashing and other stuff. I asked him If he was a traveller and he seemed a bit cagey about answering but said he was. We had a chat for 10 minutes. he declined a cuppa as he had to get on with his round but was very grateful for the offer.
Nice guy..........under those circumstances.
We have a scrap metal dealer 10 minutes drive away but when I took £25 worth of copper in last year I had to jump through hoops including driving licence, passport, utility bill and bone marrow sample. Couldn't be arrised this time. A good quick way of clearing the yard out...imo.
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My experience. Plausible and charming whilst it suits them. Evasive and manipulating then intimidating.
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>> My experience. Plausible and charming whilst it suits them. Evasive and manipulating then intimidating.
The experience exactly when my mother, who was somewhat confused at the time, agreed to have her perfectly sound concrete drive tarmaced (my brother intervened).
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What is it the Daleks used to say?
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>> What is it the Daleks used to say?
Oh s***! Stairs!
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>> Oh s***! Stairs!
Not now.
"elevate, elevate"
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I had to jump through hoops including driving licence, passport, utility bill and bone marrow sample. Couldn't be arrised this time. A good quick way of clearing the yard out...imo.
and all these measures are put in place to stop the thieves stripping church rooves, stealing scaffolding etc etc and instead of doing it the legit way, you chose the opposite!
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41029954
detest this man, and ignoring the other stuff, hard to disagree with his answer.
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I agree. To pick up on a couple of points in the article....
"a gypsy site that was built without formal permission was last year allowed to remain in place"
How can that happen? Try building something on your house that you don't have permission for and see how well that goes.
This is exactly what I mean. Just enforce the b***** law.
>>The Traveller's Times........... ".........those meant to protect our rights"
Protect YOUR rights? Are you having a giraffe? When did rights become so important? You care nothing for anybody else's.
Just enforce the damn law.
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There is a huge difference between travellers, gypsies and the ruffians that decended on Cromer.
Traditionally gypsies and travellers were itinerant worker that went where the work was, they were employed in gathering crops etc.
There is nothing wrong with gypsies and travellers and they form a part of a working society.
There was bound to be a bit of "bovver" when they got their wages, descended on a pub and had a fight with locals that resented them turning up, probably taking their jobs through lower wages.
The Cromer bunch probably wouldn't be recognised by their descendants. The police, standing around and doing nothing is unacceptable. Reinforcements should have been called from Norwich and Gt Yarmouth and arrests should have been made.
Shops, restaurants and pubs are significant business rate payers and should be furious at having to close because there were not enough police.
If it turns out that the police decided that it would be better to avoid confrontation because of some ethnic considerations then they should be hauled over the coals.
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>>There is nothing wrong with gypsies and travellers and they form a part of a working society.
There is nothing inherently wrong with any type of traveller - it is a combination of their behaviour and the approach to law enforcement which makes the situation unacceptable.
If they want to travel the world in an SUV and a caravan, who am I to say they should or they shouldn't. Their lifestyle is their lifestyle, just that.
But, and I know I am repeating myself, the current examples of appalling behaviour and the approach to law enforcement is unacceptable.
This is a society, and one is not able to do as one likes in a society. One obeys the laws, as a minimum. One just doesn't rely on society to rpotect your rights and complain when it doesn't, but then disregard all laws.
Do-as-you-likeys (DAYLs) are lying, thieving, scumbags. It seems that the circle that contains DAYLs and the circle that contains travellers intersect fairly substantially. But I'm sure not 100%.
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>> Do-as-you-likeys (DAYLs) are lying, thieving, scumbags. It seems that the circle that contains DAYLs and
>> the circle that contains travellers intersect fairly substantially. But I'm sure not 100%.
Well put. Wonderful concept the Venn diagram.
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>> the circle that contains travellers intersect fairly substantially<<
As always in life if you want to step out of that circle, or not conform to public perception it is so hard to do so because everyone has you labelled as bad from the inside out.
How sad.........
Having been the black sheep of my family many years ago, I know that feeling well.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Thu 24 Aug 17 at 14:51
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>>As always in life if you want to step out of that circle
Pat, I think you don't understand the relevance or meaning of a circle in a venn diagram. It doesn't mean what you seem to think. If you change what you are or what you do, or whatever the criteria are, you will no longer be in that circle.
They are not restrictive, merely descriptive.
So in this example I said that one circle contained travelers. Stop traveling and you're not part of the circle, start traveling and you are. That's all it means.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 24 Aug 17 at 15:22
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I understand perfectly what a venn diagram means having done a few myself thanks.
Just as I think you also understand what I mean when I used it as an example of how hard it can be to get away from that merrygoround we call life when people think you are inherently bad.....because you don't conform.
Pat
PS, I wouldn't let my daughter travel Leeds/Bradford alone either!
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Local news reports a number of them turning up on some rugby pitches.
Not the safest of places I would have thought!
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>> Local news reports a number of them turning up on some rugby pitches.
Maybe they misheard, and thought someone had said scum instead of scrum.
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>>Local news reports a number of them turning up on some rugby pitches.
1) They will come, quietly stay for a few days, cause no trouble, not steal or wreck anything and then will leave, cleaning up after themselves.
2) The lying, thieving, b****** scumbags will s*** on everything, intimidate everyone, nick anything not bolted down, dump rubbish everywhere and then depart leaving mountains of s*** and debris for everybody else to pay to remove and clear up.
I'm going with 2).
They should get in there, enforce the law, confiscate and crush, fine and imprison as required and move the rest of the DAYLs on, preferably to a wasteland somewhere.
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Exactly my sentiments too Zippy.
A lot of travellers have settled in Fenland now and live in houses, pay taxes and have various jobs.
The gathering crop jobs are mainly done now by the EU lads until they find regular work too.
I find most of them absolutely fine but I'm always mindful that they would make better friends than an enemies!
We use 'gangs' to empty containers at work, most have a travelling background and you certainly can't complain about their ability to work.
I remember one very hot summer day a few of years ago when we desperately needed a couple of 40' handball containers emptying and palletised.
I think their 'gangmaster' offered them a bonus but they were emptied in record time.... you could have got high just walking within 10 yards of the back doors!
Occasionally one will disappear for a few months and then pop up again and tell us they have been 'away on a little holiday' with a wry smile.
None of these approve of the Cromer crowd, there is a difference but you have to get to know them a bit to understand that difference.
Pat
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>> A lot of travellers have settled in Fenland now and live in houses, pay taxes
>> and have various jobs.
That'l be the non travellers then.
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Do you feel more comfortable about them if you deny them their roots Z?
Why do it...I have lived here for almost 40 years but I will proudly tell you I'm from Leicestershire, and always will be.
I have the same sense of humour, turn of phrase, twang to the accent and I'm proud of it, as are they.
Pat
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>> Do you feel more comfortable about them if you deny them their roots Z?
>>
Their roots have nothing to do with it, only their current behaviour. And what does Leicestershire have to do with?
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 24 Aug 17 at 15:18
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> there is a difference but you have to get to know them a bit to understand that difference.
No you don't.
One lot are leading a perfectly honourable life in their own style, and the others are s***ting on everyone and nicking everything - Do-As-You-Likeys, one might say..
Spotting the difference is not rocket science.
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Some folk find they have their uses! - when they can't do as they like(y)s.
tinyurl.com/yavhlqpd
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A family of travellers who took over a piece of land outside a hospital where one of them is being treated have joked they could remain there for five years.
Living in the back of vans, their presence has angered some staff who say they are being allowed to park for free while visitors must pay £15 for a day.
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/travellers-manchester-royal-infirmary-hospital-13578219
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East Anglian tv was today reporting on a meeting in Cromer yesterday evening where the residents were venting their anger over the uselessness of the police when a band of travellers caused the town to be 'locked down' during their carnival weekend. There's a short report here in the EDP.....
www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/it-won-t-happen-again-vow-at-angry-meeting-over-lawless-weekend-1-5184350
The travellers are, of course, able to explain their (to us) antisocial way of life, as their 'culture' - which explains two things a) why the police won't touch them and b) why multiculturalism can't work.
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For the most part, multiculturalism works. It's not right to say it can't just based on extreme examples such as this.
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For the most part multicukturalism does not work. Dig deeper.
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The experiment isn't finished yet. When it is, if the theory turns out to have been flawed, it might be too late.
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>> For the most part multicukturalism does not work. Dig deeper.
>>
You don't need to dig!
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>>For the most part, multiculturalism works<<
Multiculturalism always works in areas where is very little culture to multi....
On the other hand, those of us who live and work in a true multi cultural environment get a far clearer picture.
Pat
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Of what? Of it working or not working?
Seemed OK in London to me, when I was working in the bank. At least, at work it did...
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>> On the other hand, those of us who live and work in a true multi
>> cultural environment get a far clearer picture.
Can you explain that?
I appreciate your work, whether driving or training, will involve other cultures but Fenland is 98% white.
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I think you've made the very point yourself Bromp with this remark
>>will involve other cultures but Fenland is 98% white<<
Since when did another culture have to be black?
It makes my point very well that if anyone lives and works with other cultures, they are best to judge if it works or not.
If you don't, presumably you only see a difference if the skin is coloured.
Pat
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>> If you don't, presumably you only see a difference if the skin is coloured.
You don't say much that I agree with Pat, but I'd give you a gold star for that, if I could.
Skin colour is not a matter of choice and should be disregarded. Everybody should be judged by their behaviour, which is a matter of choice.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 9 Sep 17 at 20:50
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>>You don't say much that I agree with Pat<<
Yes, I am aware of that:)
Pat
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And *that* was what you took from my post? Ok.
Sometimes you do seem very limited.
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Multiculturism could work if different ethnic and religious groups of different skin colours respected each others' differences and ways of life and agreed to work smoothly to common ends and without special privileges to any group.
Where does that apply? From experience I would cite Malaysia, but that experience was mostly gained in the colonial era, when a strong administration was in place see the differences were respected (although not always with success).
A problem always was the poor economic development of Malays compared with Chinese and Indians. Great economic strides were made overall with independence, whose 60th. anniversary has just been celebrated but this was mostly thanks to the other two groups. To counter their commercial dominance many positive discrimination measures (called locally "affirmative action") have been introduced for Malays including instances of free land grants, free housing and disproportionate entry into public services and universities. Most businesses were obliged to have a Malay chairman. Malays now hold over 30% of the nation's capital.
Their position has also been boosted by political changes: the creation of greater Malaysia and the booting out of Singapore, with its predominantly Chinese population and the repatriation of non-citizens (which included many Indians including most of my company's estate workers). Now the composition is: Malay 50%, Chinese 23%, Indian 12% with the rest made up of various groups including aboriginal tribes. Islam is the major (and official)religion with Buddhism next.
It has all worked after a fashion although resentment smoulders and there has been serious unrest, including the appalling riot that was beginning in Kuala Lumpur, unbeknown to me as I was driven to the airport at the end of my planting career and of which full details were never released.
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Mountain ?? Wouldn't mind that metal catering trolley in the middle of one of the pictures. Ideal tool trolley !
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-41241049
Not the first "travellers" to be convicted for slavery.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-36716851
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 13 Sep 17 at 02:09
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Oh dear ......... late this evening, the caravans rolled onto Ram Meadow car park in town. I'm just going out to check that the garage and shed doors are locked.
I wonder if the car-park attendant will be issuing them with parking tickets?
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Bad luck, that's all you need, do-as-you-likeys in town. You'd hope that the were ok indeed charged for parking and that steps were taken to extract the money from them.
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"Probably be gorn by the morrow."
With any luck! Unfortunately, the East Anglian public doesn't have a lot of faith in the police or the law as far as DATLs are concerned, based on past performance. The police/council like to give the impression that they are 'negotiating an agreement' when, in fact, they are just being strung along.
BTW, the headline is wrong - the car park is owned by the council and just happens to be adjacent to the football club.
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As I said, the council/police will be strung along .....
So much for 'an overnight stay' ....... they're still there this morning and have been joined by others since Tuesday evening. I'd estimate that there are a dozen and a half caravans now, and they have taken over a whole section of the carpark used for vans etc by e.g. the market traders.
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"They moved on then. "
Yes - after only 2 days this time. Do you happen to know if they paid the car-park charges?
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"Do you?"
No, that's why I asked you. I thought that you might know as you seem to be taking a close interest.
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Not surewhy I would know. You're the bloke that lives there.
My interest is limited to whether I would find a parking spot when I drive over there on Saturday.
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"My interest is limited to whether I would find a parking spot when I drive over there on Saturday."
Yes - you're OK, the coast is clear - perhaps best not to bring the caravan though. And, please don't leave any mess when you leave. ;-)
A trip to the Apex? Suffolk Philharmonic is playing on Saturday evening.
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>> Do you happen to know if they paid the car-park charges?
Is the Pope Chinese?
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They had a bit of a knees up at Thwaites Brewery expense over the weekend....my two serving friends in the N Yorks force are hopping mad.
They’re already clogging up the A65 en route to Appleby causing huge tailbacks, so time to lock up our garden sheds. One lot have already been moved on within hours ( thanks to a couple of large farmers...it won’t be in the press!)
Grrrrr
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aFor the last week we have had a troupe of six caravans parked up at a local beauty spot, I know of three people that the dog-warden has done for not poop picking, yet their kids and dogs are running wild, and there is so muck rubbish both piled up and strewn about that you would think they had been collecting the towns bins!
What have the council or police done? - absolutely nothing! except supply them with a water bowser because they were getting their water from the duck-pond!
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"we have had a troupe of six caravans parked up at a local beauty spot,"
Learn to embrace it, Devonite ........ it's their cultcha! Remember, we live in enlightened multicultural times.
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>> "we have had a troupe of six caravans parked up at a local beauty spot,"
>>
>> Learn to embrace it, Devonite ........ it's their cultcha! Remember, we live in enlightened multicultural
>> times.
We do, but pretending to be a culture to disguise anti social criminality doesn't count.
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In a previous life....
I was asked by a local authority to give a price for clearing up a site where our friends had camped for some days. In particular the LA wanted the human excrement which was on the ground removed. I met the Environmental Health Officer on site to assess the job. After some time wandering around, peering at richards on the ground to distinguish the human from the canine, she conceded that it was ridiculous and we should remove all faecal matter, from whatever source.
I did quite well following our Romany chums around, I should have taken them on the payroll, really.
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Aye, where there's muck there's brass thy knows
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Looks like open season could soon be declared on them, even if you mistake a couple BIBs for them: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44372751
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It’s “tha knowsâ€
Appleby Horse Fair began properly today....full on until Tuesday then continuing next week. Local plod on full alert for our traveller friends heading away next week, which is when most of the mischief happens.
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Causing havoc in Kettering at the moment, moving between several sites as they get evicted and leaving a hell of a mess each time and a curious rise in shed break ins.
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There's a handful of the painted horse-drawn 'gypsy caravans' on the grass verge outside Thomas Armstrong Concrete Blocks in Brompton-on-Swale. They're 40 miles from Appleby. Are they on holiday?
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Interesting piece from Guardian about Romany/Traveler life:
www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jun/08/gypsy-damian-le-bras-road-traveller-roots
It's in their long read slot and means it.....
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Crikey. That is a long read.
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While driving into work yesterday I caught most of a programme about stereotypes, particularly those applied to the Gypsy/Traveler community. Worth a listen:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bbslsr
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Blinkered, sweet liberals - reminds me of this ........
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWa3LyvFOdc
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>> Blinkered, sweet liberals - reminds me of this ........
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWa3LyvFOdc
>>
>>
>>
Mel Smith, very, very under rated and missed.
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I didn't listen to it, I assumed it'd be just a bunch of know-nothings explaining that the do-as-you-likeys don't camp around my village in England leaving the most disgusting mess behind them when they leave, that petty theft doesn't massively increase when they are present and that the stolen burned out shells of stolen cars don't appear in the fields next to them and it's all based upon my own prejudice and willingness to accept stereotypes.
DAYL are not a race or a religion, they are a lifestyle choice which involves dirt and theft.
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" lifestyle choice which involves dirt and theft."
I.e. - it is their culture. I never fail to be amazed that people don't understand the difference between 'race' and 'culture'.
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More difficult is the difference between culture and behaviour.
I do not believe that Race should be used as a method of attributing value or generalisations.
But I see absolutely no reason why a behavioural choice should not be an absolute basis for a value judgement.
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"More difficult is the difference between culture and behaviour."
If many people do it, it's culture; if few people do it, it's a bad habit.
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Culture is still a choice though, albeit potentially a more difficult one.
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"Culture is still a choice though"
You cannot change your race*, but you can change your culture.
Race is what you are; culture is what you do.
* I recall a couple of years ago when a white American woman 'identified' as a black woman and, by adjusting her physical features, believed that she had changed her race. No, dear, it doesn't work like that.
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So people can't even be bothered to listen and the stereotype lives on.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 28 Jul 18 at 22:28
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I haven't judged anybody by any stereotype, just by behaviour I have witnessed.
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The premise of the programme, as I recall, was that stereotyping is something we all do and that we would find life very difficult (actually impossible) without it. The issue was where you go from there - basically that the stereotyping needs to be acknowledged and actual experience of individuals should trump it.
I have always believed that is self-evident, and the programme wasn't very interesting. I might have missed some, I was doing my accounts at the time.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 28 Jul 18 at 22:58
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"So people can't even be bothered to listen..........."
I listened to it, and that's what reminded me of the 'Not the Nine o'clock News' sketch i.e. making a case for the indefensible.
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>>
>> You cannot change your race,
>>
Increasingly these days, you can.
The proportion of the population with mixed racial origins is increasing - I read somewhere that "mixed race" is now actually the largest single racial minority.
People often therefore have a perfectly valid choice available to them as to which they prefer to identify with. That choice does not necessarily coincide with their superficial appearance (any more than their chosen gender has to either).
The desire to define people by appearance and assign a "real" race to them is bound to fail in the long run, as the mixture becomes ever more varied.
The absurdity of trying to do so was shown in South Africa. Some people of "black" appearance were legally white, some "white" were legally black.
Going back further, there were uncomfortable cases in America of children who by descent were legally slaves yet of totally white appearance.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Sun 29 Jul 18 at 17:27
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>>Increasingly these days, you can.
Don't think so. You can change what race you call yourself or classify yourself though.
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>> >>Increasingly these days, you can.
>>
>> Don't think so. You can change what race you call yourself or classify yourself though.
On that subject its worth reading Afua Hirsch's book Brit(ish)
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"The desire to define people by appearance and assign a "real" race to them is bound to fail in the long run, as the mixture becomes ever more varied."
Whilst that is true, once you have a set of genetic characteristics, then you can't change them. If my old mate Gregor Mendel were still alive, I'd ask him to give you a call ;-)
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>> "The desire to define people by appearance and assign a "real" race to them is
>> bound to fail in the long run, as the mixture becomes ever more varied."
>>
>> Whilst that is true, once you have a set of genetic characteristics, then you can't
>> change them. If my old mate Gregor Mendel were still alive, I'd ask him to
>> give you a call ;-)
>>
...judging by his appearance, I'd probably define him as dead (whereas somewhat previously.......)
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>> Whilst that is true, once you have a set of genetic characteristics, then you can't
>> change them. If my old mate Gregor Mendel were still alive, I'd ask him to
>> give you a call ;-)
>>
You can't change the genetic inheritance, obviously. My point is that once these have become completely mixed up, it is no longer possible to say "I am white" for example, if one's 8 great grandparents were from different racial groups.
But you would now have the freedom, if wished, to identify culturally, racially, or by appearance, with any of them you chose. The exercise of ticking a box on survey or census would be meaningless, because like it or not we would have acquired the right to self-select our own race.
We have all met people who select a particular line in their ancestry, and say "we come from xyz", "we used to be titled", " we were miners down the pits for 6 generations", etc, discounting all the other 100 lines they could have selected if they knew about them or fancied the idea of one of them more.
Now we are going to have the chance to widen the field. You can see the trend already with these genetic tests you can buy. They tell you one particular strain, and people who like the idea of being Vikings, African villagers, Mongols, etc can start to feel proud of their ancestry. But it's only one possible out of hundreds.
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it is no longer possible to say "I am white" for example,
>> if one's 8 great grandparents were from different racial groups.
>
why isn't it?
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Because you are not white, your genes go back to the rift valley in africa
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And the paper on which I am sketching comes from brown and green trees so it is not white paper. It is coloured paper.
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>> Because you are not white, your genes go back to the rift valley in africa
>>
I meant why was it possible in the past but not now? And who is stopping anyone from doing so?
Well I suppose it would make filling in government forms that bit easier. Just have one box for the ethnic background question.
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>> Well I suppose it would make filling in government forms that bit easier. Just have
>> one box for the ethnic background question.
Experience of one of my colleagues in this area illustrates how people make assumptions.
It's not just government that wants or needs to understand the ethnic make up of its client base so it's one of the questions we ask new clients. Usually phrased on the phone as 'how would you describe your ethnic origin'. My colleague asks question in her usual pretty much RP English and elderly client responds with a rather snappy 'White British like you are'.
Questioner, a young law student, was 2nd/3rd generation British Indian.
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Experience of one of my colleagues in this area illustrates how people make assumptions.
>>
>>
it was just a little joke, I obviously left the smiliey off.
Perhaps I should tick the other box and write, rift valley humanoid
;-)
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 30 Jul 18 at 11:38
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Either I am expressing myself very badly orsome are making heavy weather of this and not reading my words.
All I am saying is that of course we cannot change our ancestors. But we can and do sometimes chose to identify with a particular line or individual. As the population becomes more mixed the options for that choice widen.
If someone is the product of a mixture of say, anglo-saxon, west Indian, and Spanish, then aspects of each culture may have played various parts in determining the personal feelings of identity of that individual. One part has no greater validity than another genetically, but personal reasons often cause someone to feel more akin with one than another.
To that extent therefore, race can be self-selected, and if self-selected could be changed.
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>To that extent therefore, race can be self-selected, and if self-selected could be changed.
You can certainly change what you, or others, classify your race as or even what you call it..
That doesn't actually change your race though. You can't.
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Since nobody has a race except "human" the question is irrelevant.
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>> it was just a little joke, I obviously left the smiliey off.
I realised it was a joke but as we were on stereotypes it struck me that my colleague's experience exemplified a stereotype that RP (or regionally accented) English = White
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>> " lifestyle choice which involves dirt and theft."
>>
>> I.e. - it is their culture. I never fail to be amazed that people don't
>> understand the difference between 'race' and 'culture'.
It's nothing to do with race or culture. There are gypsies, romanies, travellers, of various kinds, some who are a race, some with a culture, some with both.
And there is a bunch of people who live in caravans with no fixed abode, using it as a convenient cover for a highly antisocial and criminal lifestyle. they may claim to be one of the afore mentioned races or cultures, but they are snip
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 29 Jul 18 at 19:53
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The danger is of course to make the automatic assumption that everybody who has a similar travelling lifestyle are antisocial and criminal. That is what stereotyping does.
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>> The danger is of course to make the automatic assumption that everybody who has a
>> similar travelling lifestyle are antisocial and criminal. That is what stereotyping does.
>>
Indeed.
Our new neighbours across the road have a major project on their hands, having bought a fairly dilapidated property, backing onto forest and with a very large and overgrown back garden.
There is also major work going on in the forest, and said neighbour, who owns a large fencing company has put metal welded-mesh fencing all around the rear, and is 'landscaping' the area himself, having access to his own plant. (mini-digger, dump truck, and various flatbed lorries).
Last week, the police arrived at speed across the road. (It's a nice area here, we don't see them from one year to the next! ;-) ), and it subsequently transpired that he had interrupted two guys in balaclavas with bolt-cutters peering through his fence, who had made some excuse and scuttled off.
Next thing, a mini-digger had disappeared from the compound of the works in the forest, and was driven off at speed on a trailer behind a white van. Hence the police.
It transpires that they had done a recce a couple of days before. Another neighbour locks the access barrier to the forest at dusk, and had seen the same van and trailer. They managed to time their visit in the short time between works knock-off and the barrier being closed (though, because of various obstructions, they demolished a hedge when driving out).
The police immediately blamed DAYL's.
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I said to the current Mrs TnE that I'd be surprised if the unit didn't have a tracker fitted. Apparently it did! Last seen on a traveller's site in Doncaster; I'm not yet up to date on whether South Yorkshire's finest have plucked up courage........
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>> The danger is of course to make the automatic assumption that everybody who has a
>> similar travelling lifestyle are antisocial and criminal. That is what stereotyping does.
You mean that just because people are part of a group that leaves s***, and rubbish everywhere, camps wherever they like, intimidates the locals and nicks everything that is not bolted down we shouldn't assume that they are all the same?
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"You mean that just because people are part of a group....."
Doesn't Brompt travel around with a caravan? I can't imagine that he'd leave much mess; maybe he's the exception that proves the rule.
A couple we know were out on the road with their caravan a few months ago when a scruffy white van also towing a caravan (clearly DATYs) approached from the opposite direction. Friend's wife was mortified when the DATLs waved to them as they passed.
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Traveling around in a caravan, even a tatty one, doesn't make you a DAYL. Camping wherever you like, leaving s*** and rubbish everywhere and stealing everything you can, as just a few example behaviours, that makes you a DAYL.
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"Traveling around in a caravan, even a tatty one, doesn't make you a DAYL."
Could Brompt be a closet DATL?
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>>Could Brompt be a closet DATL?
I have a mental image I wish I could share.
But on reflection I rather think not. Bromp is rather the opposite end of the scale to DAYLs in terms of his regard for other people's rights and his own behaviour.
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>>Camping wherever you like, leaving s*** and rubbish everywhere and stealing everything you can, as just a few example behaviours, that makes you a DAYL
Not exactly exclusive to travellers.
Plenty of similar 'characters' live in homes made of brick (well, usually concrete).
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>> You mean that just because people are part of a group that leaves s***, and rubbish everywhere,
A load of travellers in Plymouth are complaining about the mess left by another group of travellers before they arrived. Now they know how the rest of us feel.
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/995091/Plymouth-Travellers-camp-site-Devon-Holland-Road-rubbish-pictures
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"A load of travellers in Plymouth are complaining about the mess left by another group ...."
A couple of years ago a horde of travellers arrived on a green near to us; they drove down a footpath, bolt-cropped the lock on the gate and moved onto the field. This particular field was used regularly by a group of 80-year old dog-walkers*.
The travellers complained to the police that the dog-walkers had been openly criticising the mess surrounding their illegal camp, so the police told the dog-walkers to desist.
* Just re-read this - the folks were octogenarians, not the dogs!
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I used to stereotype the police as just thick, but I think it might be a result of having to deal with idiots all the time that they end up insulting everybody's intelligence:)
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Do-As-You-Likeys. - zippy
