I saw earlier that Ofcom are looking at capping calls to directory enquiries to £3.10 for 90 second calls. I thought that expensive.... until I then read 118 118 currently charges £11.23!! That is daylight robbery. How can that be allowed.
I've not used directory enquiries in years - who does now we have the Internet and smartphones?
Last time I might have used it would have been nearer 50p.
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Like you I haven’t used directory enquiries for years ; decades probably. Who on earth does use these services?
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Good question - but if you did use 118 118 would you know they were going to charge you £11.23?
Right from the start 118 118 were the most expensive because they bought the most memorable number. But even the capped rate of £3.10 is a lot more than I expected. Presumably hardly anyone uses it now so the ones who do are fleeced.
The even bigger rip off is when they ask if you'd like to be connected - and then continue charging the £4 or so a minute.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 13 Jun 18 at 23:37
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A list of charges from FREE up to...Guess?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44473507
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Fail to see the problem.
Just go to:
www.thephonebook.bt.com/
and find the information you need quickly and free of charge.
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>> Fail to see the problem.
So for someone wanting to use a directory service from their phone £11+ for 90 seconds is acceptable? And then to be charged if they agree to be connected at £4/min is okay too?
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>> So for someone wanting to use a directory service from their phone £11+ for 90 seconds is acceptable? And then to be charged if they agree to be connected at £4/min is okay too?>>
As the link I provided offers BT's completely free on-line Directory service for both residential and business telephone numbers, I fail to understand how you can't comprehend that fact.
It's the same on a mobile phone using a browser.
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>> Fail to see the problem.
You're a 'silver surfer' and are a proficient user of IT. Are all your friends of same age that capable? I speak to plenty of younger people as well who struggle.
The folks still using directory inquiries will include many who can ill afford the cost.
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Exactly.
My in-laws do have the internet and they use a private Facebook page to keep in touch with family all over the place.
We've finally got them to use online grocery shopping instead of struggling to go themselves, but if they wanted a phone number I know they would just dial Directory Enquiries.
Pat
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>>The folks still using directory inquiries will include many who can ill afford the cost. >>
See my comment above.
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>> Fail to see the problem.
>> Just go to: www.thephonebook.bt.com/
>> and find the information you need quickly and free of charge.
>>
When I am not tethered to my desktop PC but let out into that big world out there how do I do this on my Nokia 6310i or should I ask a bobby ?
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>> how do I do this on my Nokia 6310i?
Use it to phone a friend with a computer ;)
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>>Use it to phone a friend with a computer ;)>>
Just use the phone's browser.
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>> >>Use it to phone a friend with a computer ;)>>
>>
>> Just use the phone's browser.
>>
>>
Some people only have landlines.
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>>Some people only have landlines.>>
The response was really intended for the first sentence about the Nokia phone.
I now only have a landline purely for fibre broadband as a £10 GiffGaff Goodybag more than covers all my normal monthly mobile phone requirements, texts and data use (if no public w-fi).
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The response was really intended for the first sentence about the Nokia phone.
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>>
The phone in question doesn't have a browser, it's about 15 years old. I think that's what henry k was getting at.
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>> The phone in question doesn't have a browser, it's about 15 years old. I think
>> that's what henry k was getting at.
It does, it has a WAP browser, there are still a few web pages around it can render.
6310i was without doubt the pinnacle of how good a pure mobile phone could be. As a phone.
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It does, it has a WAP browser, there are still a few web pages around
>> it can render.
>>
I didn't know that, I thought it not capable of even basic internet.
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"Fail to see the problem"
The problem is that its business model is solely designed to exploits the vulnerable (and the bone idle where they are not paying the phone bill). 'How can we legitimately scam people?"
The constant TV marketing is designed just to keep the number in the psych of the user.
My 80 year old Mother got stung for about £45 iirc. It wasnt 118 but something very similar and I dont think Ive seen their adverts for a while. I just happened to notice it when I was sorting out her bills. Despite contacting the phone provider - in our case Kcom, they werent interested. They did however put a block on ringing the number.
Their charges are not even close to being reasonable. And who in their right mind would pay the rate when connected if the costs were clear in their mind. - No one!
Yes their costs are explained on the adverts and I believe when they connect you but in a form which is not audibly clear and I would define as 'audible small print', recited very quickly as if its of no consequence but has to be done.
Legitamised scam. Unfortunately it does seem to work for them.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 14 Jun 18 at 11:15
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>> "Fail to see the problem"
>>
>> The problem is that its business model is solely designed to exploits the vulnerable (and
>> the bone idle where they are not paying the phone bill). 'How can we legitimately
>> scam people?"
Exactly. It's legal theft
>> Their charges are not even close to being reasonable.
And it's reasonable to think that services like this operating in a regulated environment can safely be used without risking this kind of blatant rip-off.
The key point must be that nobody who is paying the bill, unless they are vulnerable, would ever use them.
I am seriously shocked at those prices. I have always avoided using them because I saw no reason to pay probably a quid when other means are available. Little did I know.
The whole privatised telephony industry seemed to have developed around exploiting people who were easiest to catch out. Services used primarily by people on benefits for example using premium rate numbers. Thankfully there has been some pushback on that recently.
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>>...but let out into that big world out there..>>
Surely you use a browser on your mobile phone?
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>> Surely you use a browser on your mobile phone?
>>
As i posted earlier
When I am not tethered to my desktop PC but let out into that big world out there how do I do this on my Nokia 6310i or should I ask a bobby ?
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>> world out there how do I do this on my Nokia 6310i or should I
>> ask a bobby ?
You'll find it faster to do data on your 6310i than find a police constable.
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>> Like you I haven’t used directory enquiries for years ; decades probably. Who on earth
>> does use these services?
>>
Apparently one million people a year still do.
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>> Apparently one million people a year still do.
>>
As Bromp says most of those will be people who can least afford it, if people cannot use technology alternatives or cannot afford technology alternatives that should not make them the prey of money grabbing scoundrels.
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I don't disagree, just saying a fair few people still use them.
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The whole concept of directory enquiries doesn't really work any more now that virtually everyone elects to be ex directory.
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I bet most use it for company numbers.
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Probably.
How do you find these directory enquiries numbers?
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Yes that's a problem.
The only one that advertises is 118 118, and their ads now seem to be expensive personal loans.
Perhaps they were always lenders buying into another rip off.
8o(
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>> How do you find these directory enquiries numbers?
Well one company that charges £11.23 for a 90s call pays for adverts on the TV. And their number is quite easy to remember: 118 118. Funny how the advert does not mention the cost.
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>> Probably.
>>
>> How do you find these directory enquiries numbers?
>>
>>
Call directory enquiries?
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>> Probably.
>>
>> How do you find these directory enquiries numbers?
>>
Tv ads, flyers, word of mouth etc i would imagine.
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Back in 2002 BT Directory Enquiries was 25p
The market was opened up to give competition in Directory Enquiries.
I am not keen on monopoly suppliers BUT on this occasion we should really go back to a system that seemed to work & was a relatively modest charge.
I look on-line for numbers.
Where a company uses premium lines I look for an alternative - saynoto0870 can save you money.
In my home we do not use the landline, its for BB only.
SKY BB has Talk Shield which deters all scam calls, recorded calls - anyone calling has to give their name/company & hang on until accept or reject the call.
All outgoing calls are via mobiles with unlimited minutes.
Unbelievably there are many people still paying £30 / month for a phone line & then maybe £20/£30 for calls when all inclusive packages are around £20/£25!
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If you already know the number, to save time (and, for others, minutes off their plan) you could consider weq4you, where you dial using their app and they make the call.
If you get stuck in a call centre queue you do 9*, it hangs up then calls you back when an agent id free. You have to be quick to answer though as some agents hang up really quickly.
www.weq4u.co.uk/
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>> Unbelievably there are many people still paying £30 / month for a phone line &
>> then maybe £20/£30 for calls when all inclusive packages are around £20/£25!
>>
There is still a small section of society, mainly but by no means all elderly, who do not want either a mobile phone or internet access. Often they also need a more suitable device to make or receive calls such as a large keypad etc.
Home phones are also handy to have in some situations, we always know where the home phone is, while SWMBO frequently has to check handbag, pockets, kitchen table etc for where she left her mobile if one of the kids calls her on that.
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>>There is still a small section of society, mainly but by no means all elderly, who do not want either a mobile phone or internet access.
Granted but they pay the full rental & pay for every call - surely they have a son/daughter/grandchild that can fix them up with a discount deal or at least a fixed monthly charge that saves them £20+ per month
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Careful what you wish for - companies need to make a certain return , if they make large profits on part of the business the more savvy customers benefit from the discount deals.
Maybe morally questionable, (including my desire to find the cheapest deals, often subsidised by the poor) - but a fact of life.
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In laws are both in different stages of dementia. Thet are both living at home with the help of carers. SHMBO has control of finances
However we have just discovered, by keeping an eye on bank statement that some company has rang them up and flogged them a washing machine maintenance plan for £250.
Have contacted them. They have cancelled the policy and have refunded the monies. Or so they say because its not gone back in their bank account. Ongoing :(
When the financial affairs were taken over the amount that was being spent on basic household insurance and various other unnecessary plans and policies was astronomical. The householder cover had increased out of all proportion for the cover offered.
There is a vulnerable section of our society, including the trusting elder generation, that are fair game to this type of selling.
Its so sad.
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>> There is still a small section of society, mainly but by no means all elderly,
>> who do not want either a mobile phone or internet access. Often they also need
>> a more suitable device to make or receive calls such as a large keypad etc.
>>
In which case they're making a deliberate choice to be in that minority, and should not expect to avoid the inflated costs which being in any consumer minority inevitably brings.
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>> In which case they're making a deliberate choice to be in that minority, and should
>> not expect to avoid the inflated costs which being in any consumer minority inevitably brings.
>>
They are, in many cases elderly and trusting who do not expect people to inflate bills just because they can and not because it costs them more.
It is a worry for all of us who have elderly parents and a concern in society terms for the countless thousands of elderly or similarly disadvantaged who do not have relatives around to watch out for them.
I for one do not want to live in a society where the weak are seen as fair game for anybody out for a profit,
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>>It is a worry for all of us who have elderly parents
Yup. Fortunately to date we have had only one significant incident, one of those "we have detected a virus on your computer" phone calls which they completely fell for.
But it's a worry.
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A bit harsh surely. Do the elderly make a choice to be old?
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I think he was referring to those who could embrace the technology, choose to be in a minority, not those who are incapable of doing so.
I fully concur with he premise that if you deliberately choose to be in the minority and it has costs and difficulties, that is tough doo doo.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 15 Jun 18 at 15:41
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I agree that those not prepared or choose not to use the internet are going to have to accept that there will be a cost. Ultimately society will have to make the assumption that everyone is internet literate in the same way we assume that they can read and write. We will however still have to make provision for those unable to comprehend it's complexity.
Hopefully technology will help with easy to use voice based systems
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 15 Jun 18 at 16:50
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>>Ultimately society will have to make the assumption that everyone is internet literate in the same way
Shirley it has already happened.
" for more details/info see www........" is the common response on TV.
" Now available on iPlayer " is another response.
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To a degree although the examples you quote are really additional services. Most essential services like banking,insurance, paying taxes, buying rail tickets etc still have alternative ways of obtaining services if you can’t or won’t use the Internet. Eventually those alternative methods will disappear when demand dwindles and it is no longer cost effective to provide those services. I think we have to accept this as inevitable.
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indeed. This would be more generational. My / our (Early 60s) has embraced the internet to some extent or another as it has evolved during our lifetime. As relative youngsters we embraced the technology with interest and enthusiasm and grew with it. (Well most of us).
The generation infront of us, who are still surviving, who are our parents have to a greater extent been passed by although some have dabbled and have some proficiency in surfing and email.
The following generation - well enough said re technology :(
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Same generation FC. I love tech. This is the world that Tomorrow's World promised (in a slightly better way...)
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No they didn’t . Can’t remember s single episode on social media or on line scamming. And where are the flying cars. There were always flying cars.
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Ah yes, flying cars...someday maybe (don't spoil my memories.. :-) )
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>> No they didn’t .
Certainly didn't, we were still waiting for the indestructible CDs, that would play even tho they were covered in jam and scratched with a penknife, when the whole technology was superseded by mp3's on cards and sticks.
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>> No they didn’t . Can’t remember s single episode on social media or on line
>> scamming. And where are the flying cars. There were always flying cars.
And people would only work a day or two a week, and wear catsuits. There were never any old people either in those visions of the future...
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I score on an one of those points...!
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>> Shirley it has already happened.
>> " for more details/info see www........"
It is but in reality there is significant minority who cannot (as opposed to will not) embrace digital. Hence my comment to Stuart upthread about the digitally excluded which he chose to ignore and simply re-iterate the availability of on line directory inquiries.
On holiday this week and not had time to access today's NAO report about Universal Credit. Hopefully its criticisms include the 'digital only' application process. This is a real issue for some people, particularly (though not exclusively) older claimants. The official line that help is available at public libraries isn't much use in counties like mine where many are closed or run by volunteers.
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>>...Hence my comment to Stuart upthread about the digitally excluded which he chose to ignore >>
News to me and certainly was not deliberate. There were a number of replies to my point that there is a free directory enquiries service available from BT on-line.
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My point was that on line services are no use to the significant minority, many of whom are elderly, who cannot use the net. My Mother never got it. Mrs B's Mother tried but all it did was demonstrate her developing dementia.
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>> My point was that on line services are no use to the significant minority, many
>> of whom are elderly, who cannot use the net. My Mother never got it. Mrs
>> B's Mother tried but all it did was demonstrate her developing dementia.
>>
My mother couldnt use an electric oven for the last three years of her life, but managed it for the previous 50.
Old age often has nothing to do with new tech.
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Which takes us back to the targeted group for the thieving shisters.
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>> My mother couldnt use an electric oven for the last three years of her life,
>> but managed it for the previous 50.
>>
>> Old age often has nothing to do with new tech.
Not sure exactly what your point is regarding your mother. If you forget stuff whether a cooker or computer then for practical purposes you might as well never have known.
I agree though that inability to grasp new tech is not the exclusive province the old. I speak to quite a few people in my own age group, 50 - 65 who cannot use a computer. Not uncommon among the younger generation either, particularly those who struggle with ordinary literacy.
Digital only is not a sustainable way to deliver a universal service whether it's banking, benefits or finding a phone number.
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I disagree. Existing systems might be too complex fo some and need improving but there ino going back. No person of modest intelligence is even at present incapable of using an online telephone directory or an on line bank account. Sometimes we have to make a little effort to help ourselves. Of course the truly incapable will always need help but that applies whether the systems are computer or paper based.
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Sometimes we have to make a little effort to help ourselves.
I think that's important, it's hard to appreciate perhaps for us who are very comfortable with being online, but for some it's still very alien and strange.
The MiL wouldn't even contemplate online banking as it's 'too risky' but thinks nothing of getting hundreds of pounds out from bank and walking around on her own with it.
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>> No person of modest intelligence is even at present incapable of using
>> an online telephone directory or an on line bank account.
>>
Assuming they can afford a smart ohone or broadband and a computer.
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>> >> No person of modest intelligence is even at present incapable of using
>> >> an online telephone directory or an on line bank account.
>> >>
>> Assuming they can afford a smart ohone or broadband and a computer.
>>
My bank has imposed new rules so if you have no electronic access of your own then it is now off to the bank to use theirs.
No longer can I pop a cheque in an envelope and pop it in the "in bank sort of night safe" you must now use the electronic magic box or get in a queue.
Can the magic box scan printed payment slips ? No form a queue while the details are slowly copied.
It is called progress.
Oh they have closed the branch down!!! Never mind a few bus trips to the next nearest open branch is no problem !
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Some Nationwide machines can take cheque payments in, you key in the amount on the cheque, it gives you back a receipt which can include an image of the cheque, takes a couple of days to process into your account but can be achieved without branch access.
I believe some other banks also have workarounds to allow cheques to be paid in without branch access.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 18 Jun 18 at 12:47
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I have a small number of shares in Santander, dating back to when Abbey National de-mutualised, and thus receive low value cheques for dividends etc. which accumulate pinned to the noticeboard in hall at home.
While paying them in at the branch I pointed out my regret that ATM no longer took several cheques in an envelope but instead required them to be laboriously fed in one by one. Apparently Santander's modern machines have an auto feeder that will take 6+at once.
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>> No person of modest intelligence is even at present incapable of using
>> an online telephone directory or an on line bank account.
There is a significant cohort even within those of 'modest intelligence' who find digital a step too far. And that's before those who have a learning disability.
Digital exclusion is a significant issue and should not be written off as somthing that would be overcome if only people tried harder.
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>> Digital exclusion is a significant issue and should not be written off as somthing that
>> would be overcome if only people tried harder.
>>
Not to mention those whose weekly budget does not include cash for smart phone access or a computer and whose access to a bank branch / library for computer access is limited.
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I agree with Brom & Com
it is all driven by bean counters ( instead of real counters ) and young sprogs who have no idea about the situations many folks are in.
In the old days perhaps a neighbour would help out but if you even know your neighbour would you trust them to help with your bank account access?
Money temptations can change things rapidly.
Many years ago, having had a friendly helpful relative help look after my grandmother and then help herself to funds ( jail followed) I am well aware of some of he risks.
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>>Not to mention those whose weekly budget does not include cash for smart phone access or a computer and whose access to a bank branch / library for computer access is limited.
A problem, for sure. But how would a person in such a position be solving their problem in a non-digital world?
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>> A problem, for sure. But how would a person in such a position be solving
>> their problem in a non-digital world?
>>
By going to their local bank branch or post office, which are becoming rarer on British high streets every year especially in small towns or villages.
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Ah, so you meant "limited access" because of the lack of them, rather than their ability to get to them, which I didn't understand when I read your post.
Still, even having said that, branches started closing long before digital banking got a grip on the world.
It would be cheaper for the bank to supply a cheap, limited functionality, smart phone to people in such a position than it would be for them to open more branches.
But I suspect that wouldn't really help. I suspect the difficulty will always be reluctance or inability with the technology rather than the wherewithal to obtain it.
And I'm not sure one can ever do much about that. Perhaps a telephone service, but then you would somehow need your client to accept the increased security risk, which I shouldn't think that they would do, and probably wouldn't stand up in court anyway.
What is sure is that there is not a sufficient population in this area to prevent the onward march towards digital automation.
Community Post Offices as a service would be the way, but the problem with them came when we demanded our Government spend less money on things not in the tabloid headlines.
The problem is more the drive to financial management of everything and no acceptance of value in service and facility. Ditto mobile libraries and other such things.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 18 Jun 18 at 11:39
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>> What is sure is that there is not a sufficient population in this area to
>> prevent the onward march towards digital automation.
>>
>> The problem is more the drive to financial management of everything and no acceptance of
>> value in service and facility. Ditto mobile libraries and other such things.
>>
And the problem which was at the start of this thread is that the nub of the issue is that the technologically disadvantaged are seen as fair game for any "alternate service provider" like the 118 service to rip off people who cannot get at the free online directory options.
Not to mention the insurance companies, etc who carry on making a disproportionate amount of money from those who cannot get at the online comparison and switching services.
As usual the thread drifted a fair distance from the original issue :-)
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>>And the problem which was at the start of this thread is that the nub of the issue is that the technologically disadvantaged are seen as fair game
Is the nub of the problem not that BT had to remove a loss-making service?
>>Not to mention the insurance companies, etc who carry on making a disproportionate amount of money from those who cannot get at the online comparison and switching services.
Nothing compared to what they used to make in the world of non connected brokers, I assure you.
Increased visibility only decreases prices, a perfect economy is only possible with perfect visibility, as that nice Mr Keynes used to explain. He just didn't imagine it would be possible.
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>> Is the nub of the problem not that BT had to remove a loss-making service?
>>
Maybe there is a social case for providing some, fairly basic, services at a loss with a little bit of a subsidy from the taxpayer.
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I'm sure there is.
But it will be assessed with financial metrics as were village post offices, rural bus services and local police stations.
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>> Is the nub of the problem not that BT had to remove a loss-making service?
I thought the policy driver was to introduce competition into what was a BT monopoly?
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It was to introduce competition to bring down prices - that failed then.
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Kind of both;
Oftel wanted competition because they believed it would bring down prices. They made various public statements at the time to that effect. Actually I think they said "increase value" not "reduce price" but it was a long time ago. It's the sort of weasely words that sound like they mean something but don't that would have been typical of them.
BT wanted to increase their charges as they maintained they were not making sufficient profit, as they are/were regulated they were not permitted to do so.
If I recall correctly the annual revenue was £250m - £300m which BT thought was not enough and Oftel thought was too much. I suspect that there were also cross-subsidy arguments going on.
That market revenue was forecast to grow to about £1.5bn after the opening up my various agencies.
You'd think a fool could have seen the flaw, wouldn't you? But since Tony Blair was Prime Minister at that time, apparently not.
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>> You'd think a fool could have seen the flaw, wouldn't you? But since Tony Blair
>> was Prime Minister at that time, apparently not.
Don't get me started, he was well into his 'Red Tory'phase by then. We were even supposed to have competing Ombudsmen services within particular regulated industries.
The choice as to which Ombud they used was left to the service provider......
Come to think of it (motoring connection) that's what happens with Parking on Private Land with different adjudication schemes for (a) BPA and (b) the other industry body whose name is escaping me.
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>>
>> >>
>> By going to their local bank branch or post office, which are becoming rarer on
>> British high streets every year especially in small towns or villages.
>>
Actually post offices are becoming more common round us. Not the old-style dedicated buildings, but a counter in an ordinary shop, like Smiths, Spar, etc.
Also there is a mobile PO that opens once a week in the village hall at our nearest village.
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>> Ultimately society will have to make the assumption that everyone is internet literate in the >> same way we assume that they can read and write. We will however still have to make provision for those unable to comprehend it's complexity.
>>
Every day, we hear of some gullible person scammed out of money. On the same principle that we don't let someone drive until their competence has been tested, then we must prevent incompetent or naive people having access to online banking.
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>> Every day, we hear of some gullible person scammed out of money. On the same
>> principle that we don't let someone drive until their competence has been tested, then we
>> must prevent incompetent or naive people having access to online banking.
People were scammed out of money long before online banking
www.yourmoney.com/credit-cards-loans/a-history-of-fraud-through-the-ages-and-how-to-avoid-being-a-victim/
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 15 Jun 18 at 19:20
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then we must prevent incompetent or naive people having access to online banking.
>>
>>
>>
How are politicians going to bank their vast salaries then?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYbRZmKsZsQ
Well worth watching - a pang of "loss" when watching the Concorde article.
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>>Well worth watching - a pang of "loss" when watching the Concorde article.>>
Ironically I was flicking through the channels the other night and came across a remarkable programme about Concorde on, surprising, the Movies 4 Men channel. Some fascinating facts about its astonishing technological level of development and a lot of footage of the aircraft in action that I've not seen before proved of great interest.
Also included coverage of the Tupolev Tu-144 Russian copy and why it never (not surprisingly) proved as successful.
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>> I Ultimately society will have to
>> make the assumption that everyone is internet literate
There are one or two other provisos as well:
Every single property in the country, however remote, will have reliable high speed internet and mobile phone reception.
Electricity supply will have to be more reliable.
The analogy with ability to read and write is good. But provision is made for people who are deaf, blind, handicapped in some other way, and other communication media are offered for them.
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I suppose someone has to pay for 118's daft TV adverts with those two moustachioed loons, dressed in running gear, poncing about.
I see that in addition, 118 is now offering personal loans.
Is that to pay for their rip-of charges, I wonder?
Last edited by: Roger. on Sat 16 Jun 18 at 10:22
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I thought with advent of internet, this service has gone obsolete.
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Directory Enquiry 118 Costs - CGNorwich
