Non-motoring > Chile unrest - by our man on the ground Miscellaneous
Thread Author: No FM2R Replies: 172

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
b***** Chileans wrecked our rugby night. We now have a declared state of emergency, burning buildings and the military on the streets with all public transport suspended. Ho hum.

The rugby however was great. I really enjoyed the England game. So they'll be playing NZ next week after Ireland's unfortunate morning.

Should be two good games tomorrow as well.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 09:23
 Rugby World Cup - sooty123
>> b***** Chileans wrecked our rugby night. We now have a declared state of emergency, burning
>> buildings and the military on the streets with all public transport suspended. Ho hum.
>>
>>

Was all that over an increase in bus fares or was there something else underlying that caused it to happen?
 Rugby World Cup - legacylad
I sympathise. I feel like torching something when I join friends for our regular Thursday walks. Last weeks two short bus rides cost me £9.70. I’ll be 66 before I get my free bus pass. They got it aged 60.
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
Bus fares? No.

Complicated And probably not that interesting for most so in brief;

Chileans believe very strongly in their rights and what society owes them, they do not believe they have duties ir responsibilities to that society or indeed each other.

They love gangs. They love wrecking things when they are in gangs. A large section will go out at a moments notice to join any protest for the opportunity to wreck stuff.

There is a massive gap between the haves and have nots. Many many people live on less than £459 per month.

Yet other than property prices are not that different to the UK. Also things subject to tax in the UK are cheaper here; alcohol, petrol, tobacco etc.

In reality poor people will always be poor, there is little opportunity to change that. Worse, the rich will always be rich. However incompetent they are.

Poor people are really really poor. The UK does not have poor people, whatever it thinks.

The 'rich' people live a life of privilege. Company directors and up are considered to be rich.

There are half a dozen rich families. F off rich. They own supermarket chains and the like and are seen to exploit the poor. They certainly do overcharge them.

Politicians, including the President, are seen as close friends of the rich, which is pretty much true.

The Pinochet/Allende stuff is never far below the surface.

Education is not of a very high standard here and in many areas pathetic. There is little understanding of bigger issues.

Chileans never accept responsibility for anything ever. It is always somebody else's fault and they resent them fir it.

Chileans live doing things in gangs and mob rule breaks out easily.

All in all a massive amount of resentment all bubbling below the surface, and it doesn't take much to light the blue touchpaper.

And yesterday the touchpaper was lit.

It is even more complex than that and buried in their history and society. But I doubt anybody is interested enough for me to go into tiresome detail.

Chileans ate not naturally violent people. They adore destroying property but rarely attack each other. Injured people most often result from panicking Carabineros with guns, which rather exacerbates the problem.

Finally outrageously fake.news cynically intended to incite escalation is absolutely rife. And it works.
 Rugby World Cup - Zero
The news here said it was about a large rise in metro fares. Well the mob have fixed that problem, they now dont have a metro to ride on.
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
The smashers and the burners don't care. They just want to come out in a gang and wreck stuff. They join all protests, irrespective of the issue
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
A write-up of the current state...

In case you're interested in so much detail. Though frankly the military don't bother me, but the endless cars blowing their horns and people bashing saucepans with wooden spoons is going to cause my head to explode. It's horrendous. This is what Chileans do when they take to the streets. Well, the ones that are not actually wrecking s***..

What is an estado de emergencia?

Literally "state of emergency", it is one of four possible Estados de Excepción Constitucional, in which normal civil rights and liberties may be suspended (PDF; bit.ly/2P33mU6 ; www.leychile.cl/Navegar?idNorma=29824). The President of the Republic (Piñera) may declare this following "grave alterations of the public order" with the approval of the National Security Council. President Piñera declared a state of emergency for the greater Santiago area shortly after midnight, 19 October 2019 ( twitter.com/sebastianpinera/status/1185393389786689536 ).

Which areas are affected?

Basically all of urban Santiago, as well as some outlying areas. The state of emergency was declared for the provinces of Santiago and Chacabuco as well as the communes of San Bernardo and Puente Alto (which are part of urban Santiago but in different provinces). If you live in an urban area in the Valle Central north of the Maipo River, you are likely affected ( www.cnnchile.com/pais/presidente-pinera-decreta-estado-de-emergencia_20191019/ ).

Is this martial law?

In Chile there is no real equivalent to either the Insurrection Act or the Posse Comitatus Act, and the President has much more power to delegate civil authority to military officials. Piñera named an Army general to the post of Chief of the National Defense ( bit.ly/2oVcWxI ), and as part of his powers, he may mobilize and direct any military forces in the affected zone to maintain public order within the area. A general mobilization of all service members in Santiago has been ordered ( bit.ly/35OwcO7 ). As the military is charged with keeping order (see next section), technically this is a form of martial law, although it falls short of establishing military courts (see estado de sitio below).

What could happen?

Articles 42 and 43 of the Constitution of Chile ( leyes-cl.com/constitucion_politica_de_chile/42.htm ) broadly define the effective changes. Most pertinently, the President may:
-Restrict freedom of movement.
-Restrict freedom of assembly.

However, Law 18.415 (which regulates the Constitution, per Article 44; www.leychile.cl/Navegar?idNorma=29824 ) goes waaay beyond just that, permitting the Chief of the National Defense to:

-Take control of the armed forces and public safety to "velar por el orden público y de reparar o precaver el daño o peligro para la seguridad nacional que haya dado origen a dicho estado". I am having trouble translating the subtext here, but roughly this seems to mean keeping public order and restore or safeguard national security.
-Authorize and regulate public gatherings.
-Control transit within and in-and-out-of the affected zone.
-Take measures to secure works of art, public utilities, mines, industry, and other services.
-Provide all instructions to maintain internal order in the zone.

That was far too vague. What will actually happen with regards to the military?

The armed forces will be "patrolling," but as of Saturday morning there will be no curfew (toque de queda) nor other restrictions ( bit.ly/2MNptek ). These, as well as other limits, could happen in the future.

For how long will this go on?

15 days for this declaration, or until 3 November. The President can double the duration at their discretion ( leyes-cl.com/constitucion_politica_de_chile/42.htm ).

Further extensions need only denial from the National Congress. Per Article 40 ( leyes-cl.com/constitucion_politica_de_chile/40.htm ), if the National Congress for whatever reason neither accepts nor rejects the extension within 5 days of the proposal, it is assumed that the Congress accepts the extension.

What is an estado de sitio and why do people care?

An estado de sitio, or "state of siege," is the other state of constitutional exception that can be declared for domestic unrest without a natural disaster or foreign invasion. It is like a state of emergency on steroids, the main change being it additionally gives the President the power to either place peope under house arrest or hold them in special detention centers ( leyes-cl.com/constitucion_politica_de_chile/43.htm ). Wartime military tribunals will also be in effect in the affected zone if a "rebel force" or "seditious persons militarily organized" are identified. This is would be martial law as you likely have envisioned it.

The provisions of the state of siege are quite similar to conditions under the dictatorship, and therefore the is highly controversial to say the least.

What other institutions are affected?

By law, none at this point, but many have decided to suspend activities over the weekend anyway. There will be no metro over the weekend, and many universities are closed--check with any local businesses or institutions before making plans!


 Rugby World Cup - sooty123
Thanks for that i found that interesting, especially about a country that we don't really get much coverage about here. As I mentioned earlier it's been presented to be all about bus fares, which on the face of it as a single issue seems unlikely.

What's at the cause of why rioting/protesting is such a thing in Chile?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 19 Oct 19 at 17:55
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
>>What's at the cause of why rioting/protesting is such a thing in Chile?

I'll answer that later when I have a bit of time.

To give people some orientation until this riot the rush hour fair for public transport from anywhere in the city to anywhere else in the city on bus and metro or a combination of the two was $800 pesos. That's about 87p It has now been increased to £830 pesos or about 90p.

And increase of 3p. You can understand the shock.

For students the new ticket price is $20 pesos. - 25p.

Remember, that is from anywhere in the capital city to anywhere else in the capital city.

What a load of old s***e.
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
fair - fare.

[sigh]
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
And now the military have taken full control and announced a curfew from 22.00 - 07:00.

They say it will be enforced. That means you *really* don't want to be caught outside between those hours. You run significant risk of harm.

Don't they know there's a Rugby World Cup on?
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
Just got back from collecting#1 daughter.

Tanks on the streets are a bit intimidating when you're in a car.
 Rugby World Cup - Duncan
Fare rise suspended

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-50113090

Edit

Just realised we are posting under "Rugby World Cup". Somewhat misleading. My link refers to Chile.
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 06:40
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
Totally irrelevant. It will make no difference to anything.
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
>>Just realised we are posting under "Rugby World Cup". Somewhat misleading. My link refers to Chile.

My fault. Perhaps if a Mod is feeling helpful they'll split it out.
 Rugby World Cup - smokie
Your wish is my command... :-)
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
>> Your wish is my command... :-)

In that case I've got a couple of others.............
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
The procedure if you are seen after curfew is;

-You will be challenged
-If you do not stop immediately then shots will be fired into the air
-If you still do not stop you will be shot.

If you get stuck out after curfew the advice is always to drive with your windows open at no faster than 10mph to make sure you hear any challenge.
 Rugby World Cup - devonite
>>>Chileans believe very strongly in their rights and what society owes them, they do not believe they have duties ir responsibilities to that society or indeed each other.

>>They love gangs. They love wrecking things when they are in gangs. A large section will go out at a moments notice to join any protest for the opportunity to wreck stuff.

>>Chileans live doing things in gangs and mob rule breaks out easily.

They sound alot like our members of Parliament! ;-)
 Rugby World Cup - Duncan
>> Chileans never accept responsibility for anything ever. It is always somebody else's fault and >> they resent them fir it.
>>

We have the same thing in the UK. They are called Scousers.
 Rugby World Cup - sherlock47

>>
>> We have the same thing in the UK. They are called Scousers.
>>
>>

I thought that the original post was describing Newcastle.
 Rugby World Cup - CGNorwich
Dont all these generalisations amount to a sort of lazy and casual racism?
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
Mine?

Don't think so.
 Rugby World Cup - CGNorwich
"Chileans believe very strongly in their rights and what society owes them, they do not believe they have duties or responsibilities to that society or indeed each other."

I rather guess that you dont mean ALL Chileans do you? I'm sure there are plenty of Chileans with those very views.

If I ascribed the very same words to the West Indian populaion in the UK would that be racist?
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
I guess it depends whether or not you are attributing a value to the generalisation.

But hey, find fault with it if you wish. I don't care much. I've given up defending my non-racism to the world.

Sniffing doesn't do the cause against racism any favours.

 Rugby World Cup - CGNorwich
"Sniffing doesn't do the cause against racism any favours."

No it doesn't and I'm not implying that you are in any shape or form a racist but as you see one generation leads to another.
 Rugby World Cup - sherlock47
>> Dont all these generalisations amount to a sort of lazy and casual racism?
>>

probably - but only in the eyes of the reader?
 Rugby World Cup - Bromptonaut
>> Dont all these generalisations amount to a sort of lazy and casual racism?

Interesting question.

What is the mix in Chile for people of different origins?

IIRC that when it was suggested that Pinochet was in some way related to Maggie T reading suggested that there was a fair mix of backgrounds amongst those who'd settled and intermingled there.

Is the attitude Mark describes cultural or something learned? Does it predate the Allende/Pinochet time?

Not sniffing - genuinely interested.
 Rugby World Cup - No FM2R
>>>> Not sniffing - genuinely interested.

A big question, but at a high level...

>> What is the mix in Chile for people of different origins?

18m Chilean
--2m Mapuche
--1m other indigienous
1m Gringo
1m other foreign

Historically the non-Mapuche Chilean are of Spanish descent. Obviously a serious amount of interbreeding over the years.

NB: Many people see 'gringo' as a perjorative term. Gringos typically don't. it is an old Spanish term originally mean "people who Speak Spanish with an awful accent, typically Irish".

>> Is the attitude Mark describes cultural or something learned?

I am not entirely sure of your distinction, but in this case it is most certainly learned. It is not a feature of any racial distinction.

>>Does it predate the Allende/Pinochet time?

Kind of.

Chile has been on a path ever since the Spanish ran the place. It tends to have been very influenced by distant nations (Spanish, American, British, etc) and much less by it's neighbours (Peru, Bolivia, Argentina) were it's interaction has been mostly war and conflict.

If one considers the Indian population in the UK they tend to be more traditional and stuck in the past than Indians in India.

Similarly Chile has not culturally developed from it's distant influenced start and continues to be hostile with it's neighbours.

They've been a colony of Spain, at war with their neighbours, financially dependent on distant countries, subject to the tyranny of Allende and the dictatorship of Pinochet and scared of communism and corruption. Even more concerned about being accused of corruption or communism.

Consequently they are naturally defensive, fearful of blame and extremely defensive of their rights. They are not open or sincere with strangers, are obsessed with rules and bureaucracy as a way of avoiding communism and corruption and obsessed with following the rules as a way of ensuring that they can't be blamed for anything.

They don't really grasp the idea of quality in delivery. It is simply according to the rules or it is not. They have no regard for duty or responsibility, they believe they must fight and insist upon their every right fearful that they will be infringed.

They do not understand that value can be created, they believe it can only be taken. consequently they believe that if they are not taking the value then it is being taken from them.

They take that to the extend of believing that they are entitled to things from the Government (subsidised metro fares) but believe that taxation is an infringement of their rights.

As part of that they equate courtesy to subservience and initiative to failing to follow the rules.

Education is subpar and is oriented on the learning by rote of what is true with no discussion or understanding of why it is true. And that holds whether you are talking about Maths or History.

They achieve our "o-level" at around age 18 and finish their degrees when they are around 27. Unless they want to be a doctor or something and then it's much longer.

They live at home until they get married, and often continue to live at home even when they are married.

The home is run by the senior female, typically either the Mother or the Grandmother. Men are treated as peacocks but allowed no involvement in decision making. Girls are expected to work to look after the men folk (cleaning, cooking, serving etc).

Consequently the place is awash with 20 - 25 year old immature males with no clue about life, responsibility or any other damn thing. It is them that began this current dispute.

They are a tortured crowd, basically resentful of everybody.

For example, every level of wealth from labourer to gazillionaire abuses every level of wealth beneath them and despises every level above them.

And the poor are absolutely abused by the rich. Over charged, deprived of benefit, no meaningful pensions, welfare or education. No care, no choice, no voice.

Your family name matters and will govern the treatment and opportunities you receive.

These are all a result of their "upbringing". Fundamentally they are just people, no better or worse than a child that has been abused.

The above is a generalisation, and a brief one at that. I am talking of learned and influenced behaviour not racial trait. It is vastly more complex than I have time or will to type, though next time I am in the UK I will happily sit down over a beer and chat it through with you.

I typed it as a stream of conciousness and have reviewed neither the typing nor the grammar. Nor the logical flow for that matter. It is what it is.
 Rugby World Cup - sooty123
Very interesting post, thanks.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Thank you Smokie
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
My only connection to Chile is with a business connection of my father; a young man (well probably about 45 now) who was a winemaker. My parents discovered, when they visited his office in Santiago, that his mother was a member of a family so wealthly that they owned the largest insurance company, the main mobile phone company and apparently Napoleon's desk(!).

This would be about 15 years ago.

The situation you describe regarding the have's and have nots is similar to other countries best described as second world. The only way out in my experience is to create a larger band of almost haves; i.e. a much larger middle class. In Israel this occured with the advent of 'hi tech' and widespread use of mobile data. There is now a huge 'hi tech' industry with international customers (e.g. Waze), and with internet communications, there is also a large sector of UK/USA businesses run by ex-pats living in Israel, enabled by fast internet.

This has broadened the wealth base to such a large extent that disrupters in many fields are having a major effect on the power of the small number of wealthy families. The levels of corruption are down, excessive price gouging is reduced and if the government gets its act together, the banking system will be modernised as well.

But the cause of the improvement was cyber and hi-tech in the Army etc. Lots of conscripts coming out of the army with huge IT experience, which was translated into successful business ideas. Chile and similar countries need a source and growth mechanism for it to work.
Last edited by: Netsur on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 09:49
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>>But the cause of the improvement was.............

.....a drive from the have-nots for change. That doesn't happen in Chile. All that happens is they protest/riot demanding that someone else fix it for them.

The utter lack of personal responsibility, personal drive and effort and personal ambition is utterly stunning. I know of no other country like it.

Chile has no shortage of economic and hi-tech opportunities. They just don't want to work for them.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> his mother was a member of a family so wealthly that they owned the largest insurance company, the main mobile phone company

If you mean the Balmacedas they haven't owned CTC since 1927.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Fursty Ferret
I'm out in Santiago next week for a few days staying near Barrio Suecia. Whereabouts does the curfew apply - seems that 7am to 10pm is going to be pretty restrictive for many people?

Incidentally, have you done the drive south to the San Francisco glacier? Have a 4x4 booked but doesn't look any worse than gravel roads. Full insurance package ticked... ;-)

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Suecia is absolutely included. Are you staying there for long? And where are you staying?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Bear in mind it means you cannot get in from the airport during those hours.

Also, be careful what transport you do use from the airport. Happy to come out to the airport and give you a lift in, if you wish.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 11:45
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> seems that 7am to 10pm is going to be pretty
>> restrictive for many people?


A typo? Its 10pm - 7am.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 11:48
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Fursty Ferret
Oops, yes, 10pm to 7am. :-)

It's a work trip so transport laid on and hotel security checked. Thank you for the very kind offer, though.

What I don't want to happen is to be effectively confined to the hotel for the four days I'm out in Chile, as I love visiting (even if they do seem to speak a variant of Spanish that's indecipherable).
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 12:01
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
A wild a*** guess says the curfew will not last depending on behaviour on Monday.

However, there are calls for a general strike and the medical staff come out on Monday. All supermarkets are closed, public transport is closed down and there are few taxis about.

If the curfew is in place you will be confined to the hotel.

Much depends on the behaviour Monday and Tuesday. Typically Chileans get bored pretty quickly but its spreading at the moment.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
If I were you I would delay the trip. It's no fun right now. Your office hete will almost certainly be optimistic in anything they tell you.

By all means email me if you want to ask or know anything you prefer not to mention publicly.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
Is your e-mail shown in your profile..I can't tell because of admin settings.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Yes. However, you can give my email addresses to anyone who asks, they're not confidential.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 12:25
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
>> Yes. However, you can give my email addresses to anyone who asks, they're not confidential.

There's one in your public profile.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
Thanks B.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - legacylad
Thread drift alert..
Did you do any skiing this season in Chile ? End of season now, and I don’t anticipate ever skiing anywhere apart from Europe and with my USA friends, but I was curious as to ski locations within Chile, resort sizes, lift passes.
As you do whilst procrastinating about cleaning out the loft, boarding it now the water tanks are no more and general Sunday afternoon laziness for 30 minutes!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>>Did you do any skiing this season in Chile ?

Chile's ski season is unreliable. It's fine for those of us who live here who can quickly take advantage of it, but I'd never advise booking a flight much in advance to come here to ski.

It's also quite a different environment to Europe. Little in the way of Apres Ski, for example. Again, fine if you live here but not so much for a holiday.

It takes me about 45minutes / 60 minutes to get to the slopes so I can go at short notice when the conditions are worth it and still be in the pub by tea time..
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> >> Yes. However, you can give my email addresses to anyone who asks, they're not
>> confidential.
>>
>> There's one in your public profile.

Thanks. The reason I replied "yes".
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 13:12
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
Chile unrest made the lunchtime news today !
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
>> >> his mother was a member of a family so wealthly that they owned the
>> largest insurance company, the main mobile phone company
>>
>> If you mean the Balmacedas they haven't owned CTC since 1927.
>>

Can't remember the exact name. The man's surname was something like Rivandenera?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Not one of the four families, nor any other finacially significant family AFAIK. Either you mis-remember the name of someone was indulging in a little artistic licence.

But such rich families do certainly exist here.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
Of course I only have second hand info but the stories from my parents of their trip to Chile included a stay at the man''s parents' country house which was something very grand indeed and the office in Santiago was a skyscraper in which they visited the top floor which not a viewing gallery. On avenue Bernard o'higgins? Strangest spanish name I've come across - was he Irish?

Anyway we all have examples of people we have met exaggerating their importance and as I haven't spoken to him in at least six years not seen him for about eight its not hugely important. Seemed genuine when he came to the UK. Not a sponger, but a proper wine maker.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>>n avenue Bernard o'higgins? Strangest spanish name I've come across - was he Irish?

Chilean with Spanish & Irish ancestors.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
>> >>n avenue Bernard o'higgins? Strangest spanish name I've come across - was he Irish?
>>
>> Chilean with Spanish & Irish ancestors.
>>

I thought my memory wasn't playing tricks with me. It's on Richmond Bridge, on the left just before you cross into the holy county of Middlesex.

www.londonremembers.com/memorials/bernardo-o-higgins-bust
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
> Seemed genuine when he came to the UK. Not a sponger, but a proper wine maker.

He may very well be. If you remember his name properly, let me know I think I know most of them.

>>we all have examples of people we have met exaggerating their importance

He may well not have been doing that. Well, perhaps about the Telephone Company, he may have meant one of the others rather than the largest.

But all the winerys and vineyards were all family owned at one stage or another. Many still are. If he was an older gentleman he may very well be one of the true craftsmen.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
I'll ask my father for his correct name.... get back you later in the week...
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Cheers, I'd be interested. And quite amused if I actually know him.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardo_O%27Higgins

Amazing what stamp collecting as a kid has done to my trivia knowledge - not the same one I grant you.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
p.s. ask his full name if you can. Often the actual family name can be right down the end of the name and not necessarily used when abroad.

typical example of correct legal name...

First_name, Middle_name(s), Father's_surname, Mother's_surname, de "husband's surname", family_surname.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Written before the current issues in Chile, but interesting...

www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50113090
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - John Boy
>> www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world
>>
Thanks for posting that - it was an uplifting read for me.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Robin O'Reliant
So how come you live in Chile, Mark? Business reasons or do you just like the life there?
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 20:17
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Complicated.

Originally this was one of the countries I found through work, though that was 25 odd years ago. I've been in and out over the years, primarily stopped moving for the children to complete their secondary education and the music stopped when I was here, like pass the parcel.

In hindsight that wasn't one of my smarter decisions, but there you are. What's done is done.

Living here can be a challenge, albeit that my life is one of comfort and privilege and I get involved in interesting stuff..

However I've never been very good at the art of working in the country I actually live in, and I show no signs of improving.

I do like being a foreigner though so I shan't move back to the UK permanently I shouldn't think. However, I want to be a lot closer to it than I am. Too damned far, especially with ageing unwell parents.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 20:26
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
TL:DR

Living abroad is just what I do. And always have.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
Found him

Ricardo Rivadeneira Hurtado

www.maquis.cl/en

My father says that Ricardo's father was a previoous attorney general??

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Curfew renewed for tonight but extended. 19:00 - 06:00

FFS. And I understand the initial assessment of Metro damage is $200m USD and up to 3 months work..
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Actually this is genuinely starting to get a bit grim.

Curfew brought forward to 19:00 (as opposed to 22:00 last night) and extended to a wider area.

"El jefe de Defensa Nacional de Chile, Javier Iturriaga del Campo, ha impuesto un nuevo toque de queda en la región Metropolitana y las comunas de Puente Alto y San Bernardo, que estará vigente entre las 19 horas de este domingo y las 6 de la mañana del lunes."

Schools closed.

Malls & supermarkets closed.

Rumours of water supply problems.

Rumours of petrol shortages (Shell say there is no problem, but I have no idea who is correct)

Plans for extended public demonstrations tomorrow

Medical staff purportedly going out on strike

Calls for a general strike.

Much depends on what happens tomorrow afternoon. That will probably set the tone for the rest of the week.

Ho hum, might as well have another G&T I guess.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Oct 19 at 21:14
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Kevin
>Ho hum, might as well have another G&T I guess.

Careful with that bottle. If the disruption lasts it might not just be petrol shortages.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
The amount I've got Kevin the world will cease to be a concern of mine long before I am in danger of running out. Cremation may not be advisable though.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - zippy
Hope you and yours stay safe Mark!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> Hope you and yours stay safe Mark!

Thanks Zippy, I appreciate it. Though in truth the only ones likely to get hurt are the protestors and the Carabineros. Despite it's many problems Chile is not a violent country.

The rest of us are just going to be miserable, bored, hungry and crabby.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
I have messaged/reported these messages to the mods.

It's ridiculous the way the Rugby World Cup is mixed up with the Chile unrest.

Please sort it out.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Zero
Talking of miserable and Crabby.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
...and he shall appear.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
More or less impossible without spending hours doing it. We'll have a look at it to see what can be done.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
Smokie split it ages ago - it's just that the "subject" line still refers to it.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Duncan lives in the past.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
>> Duncan lives in the past.
>>

I was born in the past.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
The messages at 16:54 and 17:33 are headed RWC and are all about Chile.

Chile aren't even in the RWC (joke).
 Wellie Boot Throwing Contest 1973 - No FM2R
>>The messages at 16:54 and 17:33 are headed RWC and are all about Chile.

I can see how you would find that distracting. I think Pooh probably summed up teh problem best;

"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain and long words bother me."
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
Smokie split it ages ago - it's just that the "subject" line still refers to it.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - R.P.
If I can't sleep tonight, I'll fix them. May help
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
FFS, I live in a house in an upmarket area with very large and high walls around it and yet right now my eyes are stinging and streaming from tear gas as a result of a pitched battle outside.

The cats are distressed, the girls are suffering and my 'kin eyes 'kin hurt.

There simply isn't enough gin in the world.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - legacylad
Well use Optrex instead you numpty......
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Made me laugh
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Robin O'Reliant
Laughed till you cried, eh?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Oh ha b***** har.


I was just reading a BBC report written with their usual care and accuracy so I'd like to clear something up;

There are two separate groups at work here. -

Group 1 the legitimate protesters

They are not rioting, they are marching and making a ton of noise and causing disruption.

To be honest they have a point, they are treated badly, they just don't help themselves or see that they do the same to those poorer than them.

Grouo 2 - the scum


They are wrecking, burning, looting, attacking and wrecking. They have no interest in the protest, they just was to riot and steal. There are signs that they are at least coordinated and are going after the country's infrastructure.

They need to burn in hell. Slowly and painfully.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - smokie
Chile sounds more extreme but it's a worldwide problem that legitimate protests are often hijacked by small mobs intent on illegal and often very antisocial activity. Which is a shame because it often overshadows the true purpose of the demo, by stealing the headlines.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Zero
>> Chile sounds more extreme but it's a worldwide problem that legitimate protests are often hijacked
>> by small mobs intent on illegal and often very antisocial activity. Which is a shame
>> because it often overshadows the true purpose of the demo, by stealing the headlines.

And it is by no means new.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - legacylad
But seriously, hope all ok with you and your loved ones
Regards
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
I'm out and about. I swear to God that the guy next to me in full combat is about 12, doesn't shave and is carrying a gun he can only just get off the ground.

Though his three colleagues are somewhat larger and more intimidating so I refrained from any comment.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 21 Oct 19 at 19:05
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - sooty123
Is there conscription in Chile?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
A selected percentage. You can pay to get out of it, or have a mate senior in the ministry make it go away. Both are common.

Hence the poor serve.

Pretty much the way of things here and symptomatic of the issues causing the current unrest.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Ambo
I witnessed the local gap between rich and poor in a striking form while working in Malaysia but this did not compare with the stark differences I later found on an extended trip to Colombia, Chile, Peru and Brazil. Here the gap was not only economic. I found that it was also one of ignorance on the part of the middle classes. If I questioned one of them about the peasantry the usual response was an impatient, disdainful "I don't know anything about such people".

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> Is there conscription in Chile?


Ironic. Daughter's boyfriend just got called up. This morning.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - sooty123
>> >> Is there conscription in Chile?
>>
>>
>> Ironic. Daughter's boyfriend just got called up. This morning.
>>

For 12 months, I assume conscription starts at 18?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> >> >> Is there conscription in Chile?

>> >> Ironic. Daughter's boyfriend just got called up. This morning.

>> For 12 months, I assume conscription starts at 18?


To be honest I didn't ask, I'd assumed it was two years. I'll ask later.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
This is not downtown where the more serious trouble is, but even so....

A live feed from Plaza Italia by what was Baquedano Metro Station


www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMaSEx506p0
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
What does it say on the sign?

"Renounce Chadwick?" (Renunciachadwick) or similar. What does that mean?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Interior and Public Security Minister of Chile since 2018, cousin of Pinera the President, current scapegoat of the masses.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Chadwick
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
This is what 1m+ pssed off people look like.

imgur.com/gallery/ZJdnXgD

imgur.com/gallery/vkjdQAB

(I hope the link work)
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 26 Oct 19 at 00:40
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Zero
>> This is what 1m+ pssed off people look like.

s lot of peeps
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
Interesting programme on BBC World Service earlier today about current protests in Chile and Lebanon.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csynt4 (BBC Sounds)

Programme was called The Fifth Floor and started around 02:06 UTC.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - John Boy
BBC Radio4's "From Our Own Correspondent" had a report from Chile this morning:
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009qmt
The pertinent part began at 6m 32s.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Next time there is a major march in London about Brexit, go out to Shropshire somewhere and ask an older, probably well off lady to explain to you what it's like and what it's all about and then broadcast it to the people in Australia as their source of information.

I think I know where she lives, it is by a street called Vasco de Gama I suspect. I happen to have some property around there and I know about the neighbours going out in hi-vis to protect the local supermarket. A couple of my tenants were amongst them. It happened once.

She clearly knows little about the current protests, less about the dictatorship and nothing about the riots themselves.

I found that interview VF annoying.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 26 Oct 19 at 19:54
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
My friend Jorge Salgado-Reyes was taking photographs yesterday. I guess they didn't want this one taken.

And this is the Police, not even the Military. And the military are proper scary.

imgur.com/fxt6qt4

Jorge has taken many outstanding photos of the trouble, he's fairly easy to find or can be contacted through me.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Fursty Ferret
Back safely. Huge thanks to Mark for his thoughtful and detailed advice and updates on the situation out there. We left just before things kicked off again on Friday.

No particular issues (other than the hotel running out of beer) but did get the distinct whiff of teargas on occasion while walking around the city.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Glad it all worked out.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Dieselboy
"We have the same thing in the UK. They are called Scousers"

Hilarious. You must have an example in mind. Let's hear it.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
Ask any Mancunian. Scousers winge and moan but never accept that they might be responsible for their own misfortune c.f. Heysel stadium disaster (Hillsborough a notable and tragic exception).
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Robin O'Reliant
>> Ask any Mancunian. Scousers winge and moan but never accept that they might be responsible for their own misfortune c.f. Heysel stadium disaster (Hillsborough a notable and tragic exception).
>>

Hillsborough is one where they want 100% of the blame taken by everyone else. Anyone who has been to a football match pre all seater stadiums will know that crushes (And I've experienced a few) come about through people at the back of a crowd trying to force their way forward - not in any malicious way, but unaware of the dangerous situation they are causing nearer the front.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
>> Hillsborough is one where they want 100% of the blame taken by everyone else. Anyone
>> who has been to a football match pre all seater stadiums will know that crushes
>> (And I've experienced a few) come about through people at the back of a crowd
>> trying to force their way forward - not in any malicious way, but unaware of
>> the dangerous situation they are causing nearer the front.

I know I've said this before but, as you say, 'everyone' knew this sort of movement and crushing occurred and that Hillsborough's layout made it particularly bad. There was a full dress rehearsal for 15/04/89 a couple of years earlier at another FA Cup neutral ground fixture.

Police and stewards should have been ready and directing fans to less crowded pens.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Robin O'Reliant
>>
>>
>> Police and stewards should have been ready and directing fans to less crowded pens.
>>
>>
They should have. But the crush itself was caused by fans at the back trying to push their way forward.

I've been in that situation a few times myself, where people feeling the pressure of bodies building up were shouting "For eff sake, stop pushing at the back".
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Manatee

>> They should have. But the crush itself was caused by fans at the back trying
>> to push their way forward.
>>
>> I've been in that situation a few times myself, where people feeling the pressure of
>> bodies building up were shouting "For eff sake, stop pushing at the back".

It's a cumulative thing surely. I don't think individuals in a crowd can be blamed. Crowds need management when tens of thousands are trying to get to the same place at the same time.

Blame the police, the club and the FA - the writing has been on the wall since at least 1981

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-dreadful-day-when-leeds-united-fans-escaped-their-own-hillsborough-disaster-1-7880063

The article makes no mention of at least two other matches between 1981 and the fateful one in 1989 where crushing was a problem.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
>> Ask any Mancunian.

I'll take a sceptical line there and, enjoin the (slightly misqouted) words of Miss Rice Davies:

Well they would say that wouldn't they
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 27 Oct 19 at 15:59
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
>> >> Ask any Mancunian.
>>
>> I'll take a sceptical line there and, enjoin the (slightly misqouted) words of Miss Rice
>> Davies:
>>
>> Well they would say that wouldn't they
>>


Yes we would!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Dieselboy
"Ask any Mancunian. Scousers winge and moan but never accept that they might be responsible for their own misfortune c.f. Heysel stadium disaster (Hillsborough a notable and tragic exception)."

Nothing like a sweeping generalisation, is there?

Yes, Liverpool fans were mainly to blame for Heysel, that is why English clubs were excluded from European competition. However, later on, officials and the design of the ground were also blamed. I can't find anything online that reports scousers trie to avoid the blame for Heysel - infact I can only find the opposite.

Sound like you're just a Macunian with an axe to grind.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
No - just a Mancunian. You need to understand the rivalrly between the cities and you can only do that by living in the North West of England. No axe to grind; it is a great generalisation that generally your wheels will be nicked when you park your car in Liverpool. In fact there is some grain of truth in the generalisation.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
>> No - just a Mancunian. You need to understand the rivalrly between the cities and
>> you can only do that by living in the North West of England.

Who do Mancunians rate as greater rivals - Scousers or Yorkies?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 27 Oct 19 at 19:51
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
Scousers! Yorkshire doesn't count unless its cricket and generally Yorkshire people are nice but weird... Scousers are... well I'll keep my counsel on that.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
Yorkhire has internal ridalries.

From a West Riding perspective Lancastrians are rivals but Liverpool (or Cheshire ) might be an ally v Manchester.

People from Hull are nice but weird; who smirks a cigarette?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 27 Oct 19 at 20:06
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
I am genuinely amazed that people judge others depending on the town they come from.

Isn't that rather a "small" approach to life?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
>> I am genuinely amazed that people judge others depending on the town they come from.

It's mostly humour/rivalry/banter sort of stuff

You're not seriously saying that there's nothing similar between Cardiff and Swansea, still less North v South Wales?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
I am seriously saying that no such thing has ever occurred to me. Seems like a ridiculous way of judging people.

As for banter, that's sometimes a different thing I guess, though still not my thing. I'm not sure that type of banter is really banter.

However actually judging people, as seems to be the case here, is not something I would entertain.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Robin O'Reliant
>>
>>
>> You're not seriously saying that there's nothing similar between Cardiff and Swansea, still less North v South Wales?
>>

Everyone outside of Cardiff seems to hate Cardiff.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
Geographical rivalry is important. It creates a sense of community; community creates calm and stops minor differences breaking out into something more significant and harmful. Better two football teams fight it out on the pitch than 100,000 fight each other for no good reason.

Do I really think all Scousers are car thieves, of course not. The rivalry goes back decades if not longer about something probably lost in the mist of time but it serves a purpose.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>>Geographical rivalry is important. It creates a sense of community; community creates calm and stops minor differences

Nonsense.

Aside from anything else your example of football fails when you consider the frequent and often serious conflict off the pitch.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Dieselboy
I live in Liverpool. Used to work in Manchester. I know about the 'rivalry'. Never understood it myself, much like No FM2R.

The work I do involves dealing with the worst of society. Believe me, there's no difference (only accents) between those from Manchesternand those from Liverpool.

Seems some people take any opportunity they can to drag age old stereotypes up.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Lygonos

Racism-light.

Ticks all the boxes.

About as socially healthy as Irish jokes.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Robin O'Reliant
>>
>>
>>
>> About as socially healthy as Irish jokes.
>>

The best Irish jokes are told by us Irish -

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEXp9id4BTM

And the Jews are the same with Jewish jokes.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
I couldn't make out the punchline.

The Englishman "Didn't I ask you to take the monkeys to the zoo?

Paddy says "Dunno what he said??
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Robin O'Reliant
>> I couldn't make out the punchline.
>>
>> The Englishman "Didn't I ask you to take the monkeys to the zoo?
>>
>> Paddy says "Dunno what he said??
>>

Paddy says,

"Sure I did, but there was some money left so now we're off to the cinema".
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
There is a message there Robin, if I could only think what it is!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - smokie
I've hidden a couple of jokes which are best left in the playground. No more please.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
There's so much false information around at the moment that it is virtually impossible to know the truth about anything.

As near as I can tell this is one-sided and opinion based rather than actually false, if you see what I mean.

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/27/chile-hundreds-shot-and-beaten-street-protests
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Lygonos
I think anything from the Guardian or Independent (ho ho) needs to be seen through the filter of left-of-centre of course.

Can't be a barrel of laughs for those in Chile who neither want 'martial law' nor to go out smashing things.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R

Reports vary but there was anywhere from 1.5m to 2.0m people in Plaza Italia on Friday. And that in a city of 5.5m where more than 40% are under 15 or over 55.

So, 3m or so available to protest, and around 2/3rds were doing so.

A huge proportion are students, of course, but even so.

The ones suffering the most are the poorer people working manual and low level jobs whose finances are such that they need their pay every week.

They cannot be fired for not going to work, but they won't get paid. Never mind that theirs are the boroughs most destroyed, with few remaining shops, metro stations or anything else.

This is mostly because Santiago is split very clearly into different boroughs (communas) and each has a different profile. If one generalises then there is a line across town which is essentially Apoquindo above which are the better off people.

There is no metro above that line, since nobody in those areas would use it. There are buses, but sufficient really just for the maids, gardeners etc. So not only is it difficult to get there, the Carabineros and Military have drawn very definite lines in the sand.

Consequently the riots happen in the communas of the very people most suffering.

Ridiculous, but there you are.

The curfew has been suspended so movement at night is now permitted. The majority of the protests are now peaceful. However my impression is that there is still a substantial amount of violence and clashes, but that the media are simply not reporting it. It is difficult to know for sure.

Pinera (the President) is making some gestures, including firing most of his cabinet, but it's all meaningles crap. It is the system which is broken, not the current incumbents.

And Chileans believe that you can demand and be given change. They seem unwilling to understand that they too must change and put effort into that change. Rich or poor, Chileans do not respect each other. And therein lies their fundamental problem.



On Saturday I went out to watch the Rugby at a bar owned by a friend of mine. The curfew finished at 4.00am. We left he house at 4.15, giving the extra 15 minutes to make sure it was clear in everybody's mind that we were allowed out.

It was eerie. Santiago is a very noisy place normally, it never stops. Irritatingly noisy. That morning it was totally and utterly silent. Driving the streets was remarkable. We got to the bar, had to go down an alleyway to the side door, a gentle tap and we were in.

The bar was not legally open so we had to be careful. And aside from the legality there is always the fear that you will become a target. Though as a general rule Chileans quite enjoy ioting late at night bur they don't like to get up early for it.

So there we were, a group of gringos, loudly drinking and watching the rugby like the world was normal.

Then around 7.15 ish we sneaked back out the sidedoor into a totally silent city, and slunk back off home.

Quite surreal.



BTW, if you lot have had quite enough of Chile and are bored, then do say so. I don't need to keep putting all this stuff in here if it doesn't interest you..
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
Never been to South America, and now never likely to. I find it fascinating. How the other half of the world lives......
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
Please carry on posting Mark; expats views are always worth a read.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - smokie
I'm reading it with interest but not much to comment on. For me - keep it coming, if you have time. Like Duncan, I find it'interesting reading how others live, especially so in a forum environment rather than a TV documentary or travelogue.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - The Melting Snowman
Likewise reading so please carry on.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
This is the kind of thing being circulated on social media coordinating the protests. It obviously didn't come to me directly.

imgur.com/6z7kz3T
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
I think you don't need Facebook to view this.

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2116793318628467&set=a.1390288897945583&type=3&permPage=1&ifg=1
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
p.s. the flag at the top is the Mapuche flag.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
I think this will be too much detail for most of you. Far beyond casual interest. But I shall put it here anyway in case a casual Google-er comes across it.

A guy I know in Chile put some effort into explaining what is going on and why it happened.

I repeat, too dry and too much detail for most of you, but here it is anyway.

www.scottareynhout.com/blog/2019/10/20/the-recent-historical-background-to-the-2019-chilean-protests-nye5s

www.scottareynhout.com/blog/2019/10/22/historical-background-to-the-2019-chilean-protests-part-2-cost-of-living

www.scottareynhout.com/blog/2019/10/23/historical-background-to-the-2019-chilean-protests-part-3-the-long-shadow-of-the-dictatorship

www.scottareynhout.com/blog/2019/10/24/historical-background-to-the-2019-chilean-protests-part-4-pensions-explained

www.scottareynhout.com/blog/2019/10/26/historical-background-to-the-2019-chilean-protests-part-5-catrillanca-chadwick

www.scottareynhout.com/blog/2019/10/28/public-polling-from-25-october-on-the-2019-chilean-protests
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Manatee
Good stuff, although I'll have to read most of it later. Does it ring true?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> Good stuff, although I'll have to read most of it later. Does it ring true?


Scott's pretty smart. To an extent some of it is opinion based but there is little that I would argue with. I might disagree with the relative importance or significance of different things but there's nothing in there that would mislead you.

I think he misses some of the behavioural stuff and doesn't quite get the way different sectors of society live and/or think, but then that is largely based upon my subjective opinion anyway.

My own experience is that when I have checked things he has said because I wanted confirmation he has been shown to be correct.

If you read it all then you would certainly be in a position to read any Chilean news or reports with an informed eye.

Fundamentally I wouldn't have put it here if I didn't think it was a valuable read.

I can send you his contact details should you want to pursue it further.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - sooty123
I had a read of those links, the things i took away are Chile seems to be unsure of what sort of country it wants to be. It's very divided. There seems to be a lack of respect not just for each other but for institutions.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>>There seems to be a lack of respect not just for each other but for institutions.

Hit the nail on the head.

There is no respect for anything or anyone. Not rich to poor, poor to rich, rich to rich or poor to poor or any other circumstance or combination you can think of.

However, you have to combine that with an absolute obsession with their own rights. You can see it when they drive, when they walk on the sidewalk, in shops, cycling or any other interaction. They have no regard for anybody other than themselves.

They do not believe value can be created; it can only be stolen or retained. This manifests itself in strange ways. Allowing somebody through the door in front of you is giving away value. Courtesy in general is regarded as a form of subservience.

Add all that together and you have the current situation which you will notice is all about their rights.

They are demanding to be given equality, yet they don't give it to those around them.

They believe they should be given some of the rich people's money, yet they do not give to those poorer than them.

etc. etc.

But then they have no ambition to achieve. Promotion at work is not a thing, for example. Because they will *only* do their job as per job description they never excel. You will never convince a Chilean that they should, because they will not understand. So a changing world in the workplace is a nightmare for them. They make British Leyland look like the most flexible bunch of workers ever.

So they don't care what kind of country Chile is, as long as they get everything they want given to them without sacrifice or work on their part.

It is divided, but not by social level or anything similar; there are 18m people in Chile, and thus you have 18m individuals who see no reason to help each other because that's giving away value.

A generalisation for sure, but horribly accurate.

In 2001 I swore I would never take another contract in Chile for exactly these reasons.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Ambo
I only visited four South American countries and that was then but Chile now seems relatively well off among them, at least, with per capita GDP (2016, $) of 24392, compared with Brazil, 15177 ; Colombia, 14152 and Peru, 12789. This of course does not indicate who gets what out of it how big the rifts are between classes but is a common measure of prosperity.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - sooty123
It must be an odd country to live in. Tbh not sure I'd want to live there by the sounds of it.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
I've replied to this about 5 times today and still can't work out how to explain why I live here, or why I live anywhere other than the UK. Because the UK is a very comfortable, easy and safe place to live. Perhaps one day we'll get the opportunity to discuss it over a beer which will be easier.

In the meantime, some random thoughts.....

Chile is an odd country. It's not one of my favourite countries. My time here was coming to an end anyway I think, this has just made it likely to be a bit sooner.

I like being a foreigner, I'd prefer to be closer to the UK so I could visit it more easily and more often, but I feel no real desire to live there. That removes a huge barrier to living anywhere.

Bear in mind that I have spent slightly more than half my life as a foreigner.

Chile is a different place, and certainly odd. Not always enjoyable. But I like to live in different places. The Costa del Sol and Lanzarote hold no attraction for me. Not that they're bad places, but they're just sunny Blackpool really and not my sort of thing. And I don't really do holidays.

Chilean beer is s***, the Chileans are self-destructive and often annoying and the traffic annoys me. Half the time stuff doesn't work and mostly people don't do what they said they would do and certainly not when they said they would.

But Chile is never boring. The climate is predictable.There is no rain forecast in the next month, but if there was I could tell you which day it was going to be.

My children know other cultures, are fluent in other languages, and moving in circles that they otherwise wouldn't get the opportunity to. My children are able to handle themselves whether they are in the Embassy with HRH Princess Anne, or at the docks sat out on the boats talking to local fisherman or with their friends bumming around the local park or down at their gym fighting Muay Thai or riding horses around through the countryside with gauchos. That flexibility and adaptability is quite a gift to give children which will stand them in good stead in future life.

I have quite a good life in Chile. Mostly due to contacts made through my career and various roles I have been involved in over the years leading to me moving in enjoyable circles here. I don't mean that to sound as snobby as it does, it's just a world I enjoy.

On the other hand I often go drinking with the handymen that work for me and their friends down the a*** end of Santiago. And it is a lot of fun. Beer's still s*** though.

If I went and lived somewhere more "First World" [for want of a better phrase] then I'd just be one of many; A problem solver in a country without problems. Even worse if I moved to the UK where I'd just be one of 64 million or whatever it is these days..

It's life without Health and Safety and risk assessments and you need to take responsibility for yourself. There is no granny state. A few years ago I asked a ski guide if I could snowboard off the back of the mountain. He looked at me strangely and said "of course". So I asked further "I won't get into trouble of anything?" He said "You'll almost certainly die, but that's your problem".

Outside the cities of Chile there's a freedom to life. You truly can go places where no man has been before. My house down south is 15 miles from the nearest piece of tarmac. That's just cool. And very quiet. My youngest usually wanders off when we're down there, grabs a horse from a local farmer and just goes off for the day. Happily wandering. It doesn't get much better for a child, and she's been doing that since she was about 8 or 9, I guess.

I like that stuff.

In the UK I'd die of boredom in a week.

And I like different places for different things. I was very happy living in San Francisco, Rio de Janeiro, Bogota, Dallas, New York, Munich, Paris, Annecy, and many many more. But I always ended up moving on. It's what I do. Right now I fancy Cadiz.

I'm pretty good at building my life around me in new places. It doesn't intimidate me or bother me. I don't have much in the way of personal goods, I've never seemed to accumulate them. So moving is always pretty easy.

We have more fun watching a rugby match here at 5 in the morning, in the middle of a curfew and a state of emergency then we could ever possibly have watching it in a pub in England. It's like some kind of bonding experience where your little differences just don't matter.

Chile can be difficult. But I don't really need a place to be easy, or normal, or even understandable, I just need to have fun in it. There's something very stimulating about living in a different place, even when it is a difficult place.

And ultimately I have had a lot of fun in Chile. Still do, but the pendulum is beginning to swing.

It's a way of life I love and I'm lucky to have the opportunity. But many people wouldn't, my sister for example. She'd die a death leading my life. I doubt she's been 50 miles from where she was born more than half a dozen times. She's very happy, we'd just hate each other's lives.

It might sound stupid, but even living through the s*** going on at the moment is still an excitement and an experience that I wouldn't have got if I didn't live here.

My life has been more enjoyable and more rewarding because I have spent some of it in Chile, even if it is an odd and annoying place.

There you go, I can't explain it any better with a keyboard. It probably wasn't worth the read.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Duncan
I found that fascinating. What an interesting lifestyle and environment.

Yesterday afternoon I played bridge at the tennis club with a group of, mainly, elderly ladies. I enjoyed it.

I suppose I could play bridge in Chile, if I wanted to?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>>I suppose I could play bridge in Chile, if I wanted to?

Yes, you could. There are clubs.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - BiggerBadderDave
"I doubt she's been 50 miles from where she was born more than half a dozen times"

I know what you mean. My sister moved to Stalybridge.

But she has fond memories of their honeymoon in Dorset.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Lygonos
Chileans sound like Mark's "do what you likey" monicker was made for them!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>> Chileans sound like Mark's "do what you likey" monicker was made for them!

Chileans are fundamentally decent people overall. Chile is a very safe country. It's true that petty thieving is an epidemic here, if it's not bolted down it will be stolen, but violence to people is unusual.

However, Chilean society and British society are chalk and cheese. It's tempting to think they are similar because we look reasonably similar and live reasonably similar lives.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I've met quite a few DAYL and I consider them to be thieving, lying, obnoxious, hypocritical gits who care about nobody and nothing other than themselves. That's not true of Chileans. Well, most of it isn't.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - legacylad
Thanks for posting. I really enjoyed reading that.
I’m in the very fortunate position of always having jobs that I enjoyed, having left skool aged 17 and deciding against FE. Firstly school & library supply, then got out before major financial cuts, then a ( mostly) hugely enjoyable retail career. Sadly unexpected ill health brought that to a sudden end, but once recovered 3 other equally interesting jobs for 3 years each until I tired of them.
I can’t envisage living abroad, despite spending lots of time in warmer climes. Several years ago I almost bought a nice condo at Northstar, a Tahoe ski resort. $2 exchange rate at the time and I bottled it. A 3 month trip to Oz in my 20s after my Dad died, visiting his friends who had shown him great hospitality in 1944/45 and a comprehensive solo trip around the continent. NZ a few years ago with a gf who lived there, a few trips to Peru, Argentina and various SW US states made me realise I could never really leave the Y Dales, although I loved the Pembrokeshire Coast.
I’ve inherited my fathers love of travel and visiting places...the idea of being so close to different European cultures from a local airport means that I could never live in a land far far away. One weekend I could be on a romantic weekend in Paris, a few weeks later on my own wandering the French Alps close to Geneva with my one man tent and camping wild.
As a good friend said recently, whilst drinking fantastic beer in one of several good local pubs, isn’t it great to live where people want to come and stay for a holiday, walk and enjoy the views.
Yesterday I set off early to recce a 10 mile walk from Kirkby Lonsdale which I’m leading before our walking groups AGM. Two miles from home the Lake District fells looked so inviting I immediately put plan B into action, an extra45 minute drive and a great day ensued on the Lakeland fells, back at the car in the dark. As usual.
Can’t do that in Oz. Or Chile !!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Mike H
>> As a good friend said recently, whilst drinking fantastic beer in one of several good
>> local pubs, isn’t it great to live where people want to come and stay for
>> a holiday, walk and enjoy the views.
>>
We're lucky enough to live in the Salzkammergut area of Austria, which fits that description exactly! Apart from the fantastic beer :-) There are some decent beers, but most of of them are just typical lager-style and much of a muchness.

We've just passed our ten years of living here. Never regretted the move. Learning the language has been one of the biggest hurdles, because learning holiday German is one thing, dealing with tradespeople is another! Neighbours have been great as well, very friendly, and we have plenty of English (quite a few Brits in the area) and Austrian (my wife sings in a couple of local choirs) friends. I sometimes can't believe that we had the guts to do it.

We still love visiting the UK, although it tends to be a round of friends and family, which can be a bit wearing.

Is the move permanent? Not sure at the moment. We see how divided the UK has become, and looks to us like a very angry country at the moment. All being well we should be able to stay after Brexit, Austria has been very helpful to Brits wishing to stay. The most likely scenario that would drive us back is financial, because we will more than likely to have to pay our own healthcare in the case of a no-deal - as pensioners, our healthcare here is currently funded by the UK. We've already effectively lost over €300 per month of disposable income due to the fall in value of the pound against the euro since the referendum, and having to potentially pay another €400 per month for healthcare might be a bridge too far. The uncertainty causes sleepless nights.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Good luck Mike, I hope it works out.

On the subject of foreign languages I agree that dealing with tradespeople is a step up for your language skill, but at least then sign language can help and there's not much in the way of specialist vocabulary.

A trip to the doctor on the other hand is a different matter. I remember not knowing the words for diarrhea resutling from a stomach problem yet knowing that sign language wasn't going to carry me through this one.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Mike H
>> A trip to the doctor on the other hand is a different matter. I remember
>> not knowing the words for diarrhea resutling from a stomach problem yet knowing that sign
>> language wasn't going to carry me through this one.
>>
Luckily our doctor does speak English, and bizarrely on some visits he speaks English, others German. We muddle through. I gather that all doctors practising in Europe learn some English as part of their training.

Diarrhea in German is Durchfall - literally, falling through, which pretty much sums it up!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Bromptonaut
>> Diarrhea in German is Durchfall - literally, falling through, which pretty much sums it up!

Constipation in German is Verstopfung - equally explicit.

Miss B and her friend Anna had a ball with those words doing 'at the Pharmacy' in a German class c. year 9.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>Constipation in German is Verstopfung

Really? Ha ha ha ha. Brilliant.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - neiltoo
Hospital - Krankenhaus
Ambulance - krankenwagen
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
This is quite interesting.....

There's an interesting approach going on. Chilecracia say they are trying to rank citizen preferences rather than holding a vote. Essentially each contributor is asked to rank various proposals. There are about 110 proposals I think and the contributor is presented with pairs out of which he must choose the one he thinks he most prefers. That will repeat as long as the person can stay with it up to about 6,000 pairings.

So far there have been slightly more than 4.1m responses.

The current responses are here;

chilecracia.org/resultados

It's obviously all in Spanish, but you ought to be able to work it out. Google Translate is your friend. Let me know if it is too difficult and I'll translate some of the more obscure ones.

 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Netsur
Fascinating. Especially the proposals which are showing limited support including legalisaton of abortion or social housing integration with private housing. Things we take for granted in the UK.
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Lest you thought it was all over.

I took these from the window of the bar I was in last night.

You'll notice the riot arriving and then the next photo is the riot leaving. Sticking your head over the parapet when the riot is actually present is not recommended.

When the Carabineros (Military Police) started arriving we knew what was coming. You can see the police motorcyclists draw a line with their bikes, then advance firing tear gas in front of them, and then retreating as the march arrives.

We turned all the lights out in the bar, drew the shutters, and drank a quite enormous amount of alcohol by candlelight.

As they passed I then took a couple of pictures of the tail end from the balcony.

And then later walked home.

i.imgur.com/2SYijFF.jpg
i.imgur.com/A1Yizof.jpg
i.imgur.com/kj9yWMq.jpg
i.imgur.com/1TK9J1w.jpg
i.imgur.com/HzN0PxV.jpg
i.imgur.com/ueivkvs.jpg
i.imgur.com/l1YtS2F.jpg
i.imgur.com/g43zz4X.jpg
i.imgur.com/mOJpTmC.jpg
i.imgur.com/eCRfeBt.jpg
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 9 Nov 19 at 13:53
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - smokie
Not sure that excuse would wear with SWMBO next time I'm late(r than she thinks I should be) back from the Frogs.

Take care out there!!
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
Photographic proof makes a difference.

Though in hindsight, perhaps it would have been better if I had not messaged them to her before it was over and her daughter was safe.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 9 Nov 19 at 15:23
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - Ambo
According to an article in today's Daily Telegraph the trouble is that Chile has jumped from great poverty (which would have pertained when I visited there) to affluence in one generation and Chilenos don't know how to manage the change. What is your take on that theory, No FM2R?
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
>>What is your take on that theory, No FM2R?

I'm just heading out to a Remembrance Service so I have no time now. I shall read the article and reply more intelligently later.

But for the time being I'd go with a knee-jerk reaction of "utter b*******".
 Chile unrest - by our man on the ground - No FM2R
This is the third significant church to go up....

i.imgur.com/Qzalphh.png
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