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 The General Election thread - Zero
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 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Zero
Corbyn promises to 'rehouse homeless immediately'


Jeremy Corbyn has promised to begin rehousing the homeless "immediately" if Labour wins the December election.

Speaking to supporters in Milton Keynes - his third campaign event - Mr Corbyn called the number of homeless in the UK a "disgrace and insult to our country", and promised a Labour government would end austerity.

He said: "On our first day in office, we will immediately buy all the properties necessary to house the rough sleepers."



Average for me to buy and sell 1 property at a time is about 3 months


Wonder where the money is coming from?
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Clk Sec

>> Wonder where the money is coming from?

A glance in the mirror will reveal all.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - helicopter
Haven't you heard of the magic money tree Zeddo?




 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Zero

>> Wonder where the money is coming from?
>>

Or more importantly, I wonder where the properties are coming from
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - No FM2R
And he is assuming that everybody homeless is homeless because accommodation of their own is not available. And that's naive ad simplistic.

e.g.

www.bbc.com/news/stories-50211901
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - R.P.
Yep.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> And he is assuming that everybody homeless is homeless because accommodation of their own is
>> not available.

Commitment seems to be about rough sleepers rather than generality of homeless. Agree that on day we take office bit isn't capable of delivery but starting the ball rolling would be more than has been done in last few years. One of Major's achievements was to get to grips with endemic rough sleeping in the late eighties/early nineties.

Examples like that in BBC are tough to crack but I think that if living on a bench really is a lifestyle choice then there's a difficult balancing act between their rights and duty of authority to keep facilities maintained.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Robin O'Reliant
I might well vote Labour this time, first time since the seventies. They can't be any worse than this lot.

Or I may even sit this one out.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - No FM2R
>>on day we take office

"We"??? Did I miss an announcement?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 31 Oct 19 at 17:11
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - smokie
I think he's referring to the JC quote at the top

"He said: "On our first day in office,"
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - sooty123
Have labour released their manifesto?
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Zero
>> Have labour released their manifesto?

Have they got one?
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> Have labour released their manifesto?

Don't think Labour or any other party have a ready manifesto just yet. Each party will have taran taraa launch. May had exactly that last time, prompting the 'Dementia Tax' row that fatally holed her campaign.

IIRC Labour need some kind of Special Conference under clause diddley de dum of their constitution to sign off Manifesto. Suggestion that such a conference might be opportunity for Remain wing to try and get more clarity .
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - sooty123
Each party
>> will have taran taraa launch.

A what?
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> A what?
>>

A launch with a fanfare and so on the noise of which the words are supposed to represent.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - sooty123
>> >> A what?
>> >>
>>
>> A launch with a fanfare and so on the noise of which the words are
>> supposed to represent.
>>

Ah right, you could have just said big launch ;)
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Haywain
Jeremy has form on rough sleepers .....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/19/homeless-man-lionised-jeremy-corbyn-suspected-migrant-sex-offender/

 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - sooty123
www.itv.com/news/2019-10-31/over-300-000-apply-to-register-to-vote-in-two-days/

Looks like it might be a high turnout.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Ambo
18% of the electorate may not get to vote. They have postal votes and Royal Mail are planning strikes deliberately to disrupt the election process unless they get their way in a current dispute.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Netsur
Except you can take your postal vote to any polling station or drop it into the town hall.

 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - tyrednemotional
....not if it hasn't been delivered to you, you can't.....
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Netsur
That's true! But other delivery services are available....
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> Jeremy has form on rough sleepers .....
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/19/homeless-man-lionised-jeremy-corbyn-suspected-migrant-sex-offender/
>>

Homeless man who died in Westminster Tube Station turned out to have a history of sexual offending.

Does that mean his death as a street homeless person should not be marked as an avoidable tragedy and a scandal? Was Corbyn the only MP who offered condolences?

Alternative account here:

www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/15/gyula-remes-died-on-parliaments-doorstep-was-the-outcry-of-mps-just-for-show

You're going to have to do much better than that.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 1 Nov 19 at 17:55
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - No FM2R
I can't be a***d to read the reports in detail, but;

"You're going to have to do much better than that. "

A competition? Over the death of a child molester? Why? Let him rot in hell. slowly. WGAF?

>>Homeless man who died in Westminster Tube Station turned out to have a history of sexual offending.

>Does that mean his death as a street homeless person should not be marked as an avoidable tragedy and a scandal?

Yes. 100%. Deported twice, molested children, he can FRO and rot in the gutter for all I care. Why would you want to avoid his death? I'll even stand on his head myself.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> I can't be a***d to read the reports in detail, but;
>>
>> "You're going to have to do much better than that. "

Dying while living rough shouldn't happen whatever one's history.

If Haywain is trying to discredit Corbyn he needs to do better than aspersions over whether a dead street dweller was or was not deserving.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - No FM2R
I don't think Haywain needs to discredit Corbyn, I think Corbyn has got that covered.

I really cannot get excited over some bloke, deported twice, convicted for molesting children dying in the dirt.

Presumably if he'd been legal here then it wouldn't have happened. Presumably if he hadn't been a dirtbag he'd have been doing better in life.

He held the blame, fault and responsibility for his own fate. Nobody else.

The correct headline would be;

"Convicted molester, illegal immigrant, deported twice then dies in the gutter through his own decisions and actions. Corbyn cries crocodile tears"
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
MArk,

I think Haywain's reference to Corbyn and the deceased rough sleeper was a smear. I think there's plenty of evidence of similar before and he's consistently vindictive to me personally because I'm prepared to speak out for 'the left'.

Whatever Gyula Remes had done in the past he ended up as a street sleeper and like a dozen or more others similarly homeless in past year or so died on the street. I see if enough of homelessness in my work to think that characterising such misfortune as through his own decisions and actions to amount to ignorance and gross insensitivity.

Corbyn was not only MP to offer condolences and if none of those who did were Conservative then that fact can speak for itself.

That is my firmly held view. I'm not getting in a barney over explaining it to those unwilling to understand so don't waste too much time on responding.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 2 Nov 19 at 08:54
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> Whatever Gyula Remes had done in the past he ended up as a street sleeper

On further reading it seems there may have been two rough sleeper deaths on/around Westminster Underground station. The man mentioned in the Telegraph was Portuguese Marcos Amaral Gourgel. Remes mentioned in the Guardian article was Hungarian.

My point though remains.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - No FM2R

>> characterising such misfortune as through his own decisions and actions to amount to ignorance and
>> gross insensitivity.

As a general statement I think you're correct. But in this particular case I expect it is entirely accurate.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Haywain
" I think there's plenty of evidence of similar before and he's consistently vindictive to me personally because I'm prepared to speak out for 'the left'."

Yes but, Brompt, I have utter respect for your views on bicycle tyres.

 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Haywain
"I'm not getting in a barney over explaining it to those unwilling to understand so don't waste too much time on responding."

If you look back, Brompt, I didn't waste my time by trying to explain anything to you - I merely put in a link to a newspaper report ..... and you went off on one. I can tell you that, with limited resources, I could find more deserving causes than a twice-deported sex offender. But that is where you and I differ.

I don't hold anything against anyone, personally, for having wacky political views unless they are positively Hitlerian. Why, last night I was jangling my guitar behind the local Green Party candidate as she seductively fingered her sleek, shiny recorder - and, as we all know, they're as nutty as fruitcakes.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> "I'm not getting in a barney over explaining it to those unwilling to understand so
>> don't waste too much time on responding."

The specific comment above was responding to Mark/NoFM2R and what I regard as victim blaming over death at Westminster tube.

What was the value of the Telegraph link?

It seems to imply that Corbyn's condolences were an error of judgement and perhaps even a dog whistle that he's soft on paedos. Even if the allegations against the deceased had emerged earlier condolences and the taking of an opportunity to raise issues around street homeless was appropriate.

And let me say again I'm no admirer of Corbyn. If the Tories win the election then he bears a personal responsibility. He should have stood down at same time as May saying it was time for Labour too to have a refresh. We might then have had a leader who can lead.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - No FM2R
>> responding to Mark/NoFM2R and what I regard as victim blaming over death

How was he not to blame?

I am absolutely blaming him, though I do not accept the term "victim" in this instance.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Bromptonaut
>> How was he not to blame?

Difficult to find much detail about his history, his offending, or how he re-entered UK after being deported.

He seems to be 'difficult', presenting as paranoid and taking drink and 'skunk'. As result he ended up sleeping on an underground station on a night with sub-zero temperatures.

Not sure the latter are choices but unless we can look inside his head neither of us know about 'blame'.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - No FM2R
Who should we look for first?

The other person responsible for his child sex offences?
The other person responsible for his drug taking?
The other person responsible for his drinking?
The other person responsible for his illegal entry into the UK?

I don't need to look inside his head. I have no interest. I do know that the subzero temperatures did the world a favour and improved the gene puddle. Would that it were so more often.

The world, and society, simply does not need everyone.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Zero
>
>> positively Hitlerian. Why, last night I was jangling my guitar behind the local Green Party
>> candidate as she seductively fingered her sleek, shiny recorder - and, as we all know,
>> they're as nutty as fruitcakes.

OMG you are not in a Folk band are you? Hitler would definitely have had a final solution for such degenerate art.
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - tyrednemotional

>........ "last night I was jangling my guitar behind the local Green Party candidate"


>> OMG you are not in a Folk band are you? Hitler would definitely have had
>> a final solution for such degenerate art.
>>

....can't you spot a euphemism any more, Z?

;-)
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Lygonos
Brass eye covered politics and onanism some years ago.

You have been warned.

twitter.com/Morris_Bits/status/796101639736332288
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Haywain
"OMG you are not in a Folk band are you?"

In my time, Zeddo, I've played all genres of music but nowadays my style is seriously cramped (literally) by arthritis in my hands. What instruments do you play?
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Zero

>> In my time, Zeddo, I've played all genres of music but nowadays my style is
>> seriously cramped (literally) by arthritis in my hands. What instruments do you play?
I play the critic

It's hard work,
hard going all the way.
Hard knocks.
No thanks from anyone.
No guarantee of anything
But someone has to do it.

As Colonel Richmond said to Pat Reid in Colditz

 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Haywain
"I play the critic"

Don't tell me, Zeddo, you were in Pride and Prejudice .....

"There are few people in England, I suppose, who have more true enjoyment of music than myself, or a better natural taste. If I had ever learnt, I should have been a great proficient."

Or, as my mate put it, 'I don't play the piano but, if I did, I'd be very good!'
 Corbyn to fix homeless on day 1 - Zero
>> "I play the critic"
>>
>> Don't tell me, Zeddo, you were in Pride and Prejudice .....
>>
>> "There are few people in England, I suppose, who have more true enjoyment of music
>> than myself, or a better natural taste. If I had ever learnt, I should have
>> been a great proficient."
>>
>> Or, as my mate put it, 'I don't play the piano but, if I did,
>> I'd be very good!'

Better than that
 Farage gets carried away - Manatee
with his own importance. His smirk was at full power on the news just now.

He is now demanding that Johnson withdraw the'deal' which he says is not Brexit, and if Johnson doesn't agree then Fargage's rabble will stand in every constituency which, according to Farage will make it impossible for Johnson to get a majority and potentially let Labour win.

The Conservatives have told him to bog off, they are all in for the win. If this election proceeds on that basis then there must be a very good chance of a hung parliament and we shall be no nearer a conclusion than we are now. It would be great entertainment if it wasn't screwing the country.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 1 Nov 19 at 17:54
 Farage gets carried away - Robin O'Reliant
I don't think Farage's Brexit Party will hold much sway with the electorate. Those who want to leave (And some who want to remain) just want the thing over with for better or for worse. There is no appetite for yet another Parliamentary stalemate with no one able to command a majority for any of the umpteen options on the table.

In practice there are only two options, Tory and out or Labour and Brexit Ref 11.
 Farage gets carried away - Manatee
>> I don't think Farage's Brexit Party will hold much sway with the electorate.

That's my instinct too but I don't really trust myself to have a clue - he has always looked like a carpetbagger to me, who's in it for money and self aggrandisement, but I am continually surprised by what people will rally to.
 Farage gets carried away - Bromptonaut
>> That's my instinct too but I don't really trust myself to have a clue -
>> he has always looked like a carpetbagger to me, who's in it for money and
>> self aggrandisement, but I am continually surprised by what people will rally to.

Probably money, certainly self aggrandisement. It's reported this morning that other people in the Brexit Party are alarmed by his statements yesterday as they think standing against Tories in some seats will split 'leaver' vote let another party, probably Labour in most cases, be first to the post. In such an event Brexit could be lost altogether - remain prevails.

How much sway 'supporters' have in what is effectively The Brexit Party Ltd and where Farage holds the power is an unknown. I guess it depends who holds the purse strings (Aaron Banks?).

There's an irony there. If we leave Farage is a busted flush. If he can portray himself as lost leader to the betrayed he might have some relevance, or at least access to money and publicity for enough years to see him to his dotage.
 Farage gets carried away - Dulwich Estate II
No problem at all about finding the money to get more houses. It's coming from the same mythical pot that Boris plans to use to build his 40 new hospitals.

PS That hospital (in Liverpool I think) that was left unfinished when Carillion went bust - is er, ... still unfinished.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate II on Sat 2 Nov 19 at 19:04
 Farage - No FM2R
I guess he just couldn't face trying and failing for an eighth time. Perhaps he's not quite as slow a learner as I thought.

www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50280848

You're not wanted by any significant amount of people, Nige. And you never have been.
 Farage - No FM2R
"The 55-year-old [Farage] told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show the deal agreed earlier this month was "virtually worse that being in the EU".

Tell us something that we don't know. What you fail to mention, and perhaps understand, is that that will be true of any deal.
 Farage - Zero
>> I guess he just couldn't face trying and failing for an eighth time. Perhaps he's
>> not quite as slow a learner as I thought.
>>
>> www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50280848
>>
>> You're not wanted by any significant amount of people, Nige. And you never have been.

Yes 8 times a failure, imagine it Nigel the VIII
 Farage - Netsur
He is only 55? I alway thought he was much older than me... I imagine him starring in Dad's Army as a Corporal Jones character or maybe Pte Fraser... doomed.
 Farage - Bromptonaut
>> Yes 8 times a failure, imagine it Nigel the VIII

I scan read that as Nigel the Vile.....
 The General Election thread - No FM2R
The Brexit party must be so proud of Nige.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/former-ku-klux-klan-leader-david-duke-endorses-nigel-farage-for-prime-minister-of-britain-a3477911.html
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 4 Nov 19 at 18:04
 The General Election thread - Haywain
"The Brexit party must be so proud of Nige. "

Dog bites man is not news; man bites dog is news.

It would be news if they came out in favour of Jeremy.
 The General Election thread - No FM2R
Too obscure for me, I'm afraid.
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
Why Boris's narrative is dangerous:

constitution-unit.com/2019/11/05/why-a-rhetoric-of-parliament-versus-people-is-both-dishonest-and-dangerous/
 Parliament v People - Robin O'Reliant
Blimey, Watson's quit the deputy leadership and is standing down as an MP.

Who saw that coming?
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> Who saw that coming?

Not me though there's a school of thought that says Watson is as out of tune with current Labour leadership as Greening, Grieve Hammond et al are with the Tories.

It's the sort of political suicide bombing tried against Gordon Brown by James Purnell.

Next thought is whether Watson tries to form new party.
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
OTOH having seen his resignation letter looks more like he wants to focus on public health and activism over sugar/obesity/diabetes.
 Parliament v People - Kevin
>Who saw that coming?

Not entirely unexpected.

He's not on Corbyn's Christmas card list and they tried to get rid of him at party conference.

Also, the chickens may yet come home to roost from his interference in the 'Nick the Fantasist' fiasco.
 Parliament v People - Bobby
It takes a strange person to want to become an MP. Ok, salary is a hefty (in my book) £80k and they get all the expenses , perks etc. But the job is pretty crap, having to attend every coffee morning, surgeries etc and be always on guard for everything you say, do , even when you are in private.

There must be some that reach a level that they can earn the same with a lot less hassle - directorships, newspaper columns etc.

And of course there are others that have so much money, like JRM, that he is not in politics for the £80k salary, its for the ego and how he can influence policies to ensure that his other earnings continue to grow.

And then there is, of course, Boris who as a kid always wanted to become PM. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a footballer!
 Parliament v People - smokie
"And then there is, of course, Boris who as a kid always wanted to become PM. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a footballer!"

Just one of you realised his ambition then :-)
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> He's not on Corbyn's Christmas card list and they tried to get rid of him
>> at party conference.

Speculation on radio news this morning that other MP's, moderates or right wingers depending on your PoV might follow him.

Left radio for couple of minutes and returned to hear somebody who had been Labour boy and man speaking with with a West Midlands twang and putting the boot square on into Corbyn. Spoke of his heritage in area, joining party at 15 and so on. Honestly thought it was Tom Watson and that last night's suggestion of a political suicide bombing had come to pass.

Turned out in end it was Watson's constituency neighbour the somewhat less relevant Ian Austin - a man who looked right wing even in the Blair era.
 Parliament v People - sooty123
Quite extraordinary, an ex minister saying not just don't vote for us but vote for the other lot!
 Parliament v People - Robin O'Reliant
That is not unprecedented. In 1975 Enoch Powell urged people to vote Labour because the party were then dead against Common Market (Now EU) membership as was he. He is regarded as possibly having been the deciding factor in Labour's victory, bearing in mind he was one of the most popular politicians of any era at that time.
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> That is not unprecedented. In 1975 Enoch Powell urged people to vote Labour because the
>> party were then dead against Common Market (Now EU) membership as was he.

Powell appealed to a particular constituency in the population (i mean a segment of the electorate rather than an electoral division). I too remember TV accounts of demos with 'Enoch was Right' type banners about immigration. A lot of them though would be blue collar workers who's instincts were Labour c.f London Dockers. They's also be susceptible to his views on EU so quite likely the followed him.

He turned very shortly before the first 74 election and went off like a firework. By the second election that year he was elected as a Unionist in Ulster.

He's not the first Labour member who has drifted right and fallen out. I suspect his resignation of the whip was triggered by realisation that he'd not a snowball's chance of being re-selected.

He does though seem to have caught the wind on BBC coverage. There are several Tories who hold similar views on Boris along lines of his being unfit to lead party or country. They seem a bit more measured but Ken Clarke and Justine Greening have both been muttering about voting for the Liberals.
 Parliament v People - No FM2R
Powell was horrible. He and Farage would have got along great.

 Parliament v People - Robin O'Reliant
>> Powell was horrible. He and Farage would have got along great.
>>
>>
>>
He and Tony Benn became friends because of their mutual antipathy towards the EU, despite their otherwise very different political views. Powell was a man of principle and he would have loathed Farage.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Thu 7 Nov 19 at 15:40
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> He and Tony Benn became friends because of their mutual antipathy towards the EU

Wasn't aware of that. Time to re-read Benn's Diaries.

>> Powell was a man of principle and he would
>> have loathed Farage.

Not sure I'd be too keen on his principles.

Politician 1: You Sir will die either of the pox or in the hangman's noose.

Politician 2 (in reply) That Sir depends upon whether I embrace your Mistresses or your principles
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut

>> Wasn't aware of that. Time to re-read Benn's Diaries.

Might take some time to turn up Benns account of 'my mate Enoch' but a bit of googling found this piece which I thought interesting:

theworldturnedupsidedownne.wordpress.com/tag/enoch-powell/

None of my places of work, not even the Royal Courts of Justice, had the peculiarities experienced when 'the office' is Westminster but I can see principle that there would be those colleague friends I've been happy to share space, experience and even a pint after work with with. I'd not invite them to my home though - and Mrs B is as fastidious about such things as writer guesses the late Mrs Benn would have been.

I'd still attend their funeral as 'a friend from work' too.

As Benn did at Powell's.
 Parliament v People - BiggerBadderDave
"Time to re-read Benn's Diaries."

I've been watching a 14-part serialised documentary about his fascinating life.

As if by magic, you'll find it all here:

tinyurl.com/y3m9fgwx

Check it out.
 Parliament v People - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50341107

Another view point on Ian Austin's comments.
 Strange times - sooty123
Another ex labour minister and an ex labour have both come out and said they'd vote conservative in the GE. An ex Con MP has said he'd vote LD as well.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50349111
 Strange times - CGNorwich
“ An ex Con MP has said he'd vote LD as well.”

As will I. I think what is on effectively a Remain vote will be substantial.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 14 Nov 19 at 09:22
 Parliament v People - Netsur
"Turned out in end it was Watson's constituency neighbour the somewhat less relevant Ian Austin - a man who looked right wing even in the Blair era."

But in this case he is right isn't he. Corbyn will make Denis Healey look Thatcherite and attempt to destroy the economy in the same way that Venezuela has been destroyed. And as you know Bromp; don't get me started on the anti-Semitism stuff.

Clearly Austin thinks that a Liberal vote will permit JC to become PM, so you are better to vote for Boris who if nothing else will strive for a sensible balanced economy, given the likely circumstances of a Brexit.
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> But in this case he is right isn't he. Corbyn will make Denis Healey look
>> Thatcherite and attempt to destroy the economy in the same way that Venezuela has been
>> destroyed. And as you know Bromp; don't get me started on the anti-Semitism stuff.

As I've said before I'm not one of Jezza's tribe. To be honest though I don't think there's likely to be anything in Labour's manifesto that would have turned a hair in the Wilson/Healy era. While there's obviously room to debate whether that would be good or bad economically the Venezuela comparison is way off beam.

In no way shape or form is Boris a 'safe pair of hands' and his replacements for competent people like Hammond, Rudd (who was a breath of air as DWP minster) and Hunt look shaky too. And of course Tories have abandoned the spending benchmarks of the Cameron/May era and are committed to seventies style tax (or rather borrow) and spend.

I suspect they know Brexit will trigger recession and are getting a Keynsian revenge in first.

I'm loath to get involved in the Antisemitism thing. You've published both here an in other place accounts of things that have affected you personally and I'd no more defend/deny that than I would the lived experience of a black or asian person who'd been abused in the street.

I cannot though see link from that to Corbyn. Rather, I worry about the demons Brexit etc seem to have unleashed on society as a whole. A lot of stuff we thought was gone has proved to be lurking under the surface until people are emboldened enough to speak it.

There's a complex tangle involving Labour's shift to sympathy for Palestine/Arab concerns and Israel's influencers and spokespeople.

 Parliament v People - No FM2R

>> In no way shape or form is Boris a 'safe pair of hands' and his

Dear God, who said that? I missed it. The man is a b***** nightmare.

>>I worry about the demons Brexit etc seem to have unleashed on society as a whole. A lot of >>stuff we thought was gone has proved to be lurking under the surface until people are
>>emboldened enough to speak it.

Very sadly true. And it'll take another 100 years to get rid of it again.

Clearly I am not Jewish, Asian, Black etc. etc. but whilst I am sure there are bigots in Westminster I think far more is made of it than it warrants. It is made worse because Israel does rather to regard any disagreement with their actions as antisemitism.


However, both parties are absolutely appalling at the moment and it's difficult to know what will cause them to change.
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut

>> Dear God, who said that? I missed it. The man is a b***** nightmare.

It was implied in. or at least an inference to be drawn from, final para of Netsur's post.

I agree with what you say about bigots at Westminster though I think there's unconscious and or ill informed stuff short of outright bigotry that influences pronouncements. Islam and its adherents are probably most at risk of this and Tories worst offenders but neither perpetrator nor victim are unique to any one group.
 Parliament v People - Zero

>> It is made worse because Israel does rather to regard any disagreement with their actions
>> as antisemitism.

They have very cleverly interwoven criticism of the State of Israel (and therefore any of its actions) into the antisemitism umbrella. Which is where Corbyn fell foul, he is unable to defend the rights of Palestinians without being accused of being antisemitic.
 Parliament v People - Netsur
I'm not getting involved in the politics of the Labour Party and Israel.

I write in connection with my personal experience of abuse levied at me simply because I was walking in the street wearing a raincoat and hat on a Saturday in my neighbourhood. A friend was egged from a passing car walking to my house.

In my opinion and that of many others, Corbyn and Milne has facilitated, encouraged and condoned anti-Semitism.

You also need to understand the whole fabric of Judaism is woven around a 'return to Zion'. Without that there is no Judaism. That doesn't mean that Israel should be scrutinised in its treatment of Palestinians, but the scrutiny it receives is far stronger and more biased that the scrutiny meted out to other countries with similar issues. That is anti-Semitism and Corbyn is guilty of it.

Read this and weep. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50329597

I have no doubt Corbyn is laughing head off. Whatever people think of Boris, he would have voted with this lady.
Last edited by: Netsur on Thu 7 Nov 19 at 17:06
 Parliament v People - No FM2R
I think the behaviour of the state of Israel is frequently appalling, often immoral and sometimes illegal. It is usually hypocritical and at times dishonest.

Are you therefore saying that I am anti-semitic?

>>Read this and weep. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50329597

What's your point?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 7 Nov 19 at 17:09
 Parliament v People - Bobby
I know catholics, protestants, Scottish, English, Irish, Polish, Muslims, Sikhs that have all been targetted because of their race or creed.

I do not blame the labour party for it.

Similarly, with this General Election, without sounding like Farage, there are far too many issues in our own country like homelessness, gig economy. housing crisis, health service problems, police underfunding etc etc (not to mention Brexit) so pardon me if folk's opinions on Israel and Palestine are not at the forefront of my decision making.

And this is talking as a Scotsman whose country is treated with contempt by the current Govt and many , many politicians in the Houses of Parliament.
 Parliament v People - Duncan
>> And this is talking as a Scotsman whose country is treated with contempt by the
>> current Govt and many , many politicians in the Houses of Parliament.
>>

I don't Scotland is treated with any more, or less, contempt than any other area of the UK that has a population of 5.4 million and an electorate of 3.9 million.

Do you think that Scotland should be given disproportionate consideration more than some other area of the UK?
 Parliament v People - Bobby
No but I think it is very rude that when the leader of the SNP stands up, the majority of MPs walk out
 Parliament v People - Duncan
I think you will find that the chamber emptied because the PM had finished speaking. That normally happens.
 Parliament v People - Zero
the chamber is empty most of the time
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> I have no doubt Corbyn is laughing head off. Whatever people think of Boris, he
>> would have voted with this lady.

Which side Boris voted on would be determined entirely by what befitted Boris.

Corbyn's vote, whatever you thought of it, would have a principle to it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 7 Nov 19 at 20:59
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> You also need to understand the whole fabric of Judaism is woven around a 'return
>> to Zion'. Without that there is no Judaism. That doesn't mean that Israel should be
>> scrutinised in its treatment of Palestinians, but the scrutiny it receives is far stronger and
>> more biased that the scrutiny meted out to other countries with similar issues. That is
>> anti-Semitism and Corbyn is guilty of it.

Thanks for posting that Netsur. It's informative to see what drives people's thinking in these controversies and the 'return to Zion' bit was something I was not aware of. It sort of helps explain why anti Israel sentiment and allegations of antisemitism get combined. Is it universal in Judaism or one of those things that depends on where one sits on the Orthodox/Reform etc line?

I disagree about scrutiny of Israel. The country holds itself up as a democracy and part of the rules based international order and wants the access to top table etc that goes with that. It's going to be held to a higher standard than Burkina Faso or failed states like Iraq or Libya.

Street abuse of people who's appearance, clothing etc identifies then as part of ethnic/religious groups is on the up everywhere. Islam suffers exactly same issue. It's part of the culture that Brexit and wider appeals to populism have licensed to crawl out into daylight.

I don't think you can blame Corbyn or Milne for that.
 Parliament v People - Manatee

>> I
>> don't think there's likely to be anything in Labour's manifesto that would have turned a
>> hair in the Wilson/Healy era. While there's obviously room to debate whether that would be
>> good or bad economically the Venezuela comparison is way off beam.

I think that's true, we aren't talking Venezuela. But even double figure inflation is pretty deadly for people with no bargaining power or those on non-public-sector pensions. And the usually attendant high interest rates would be crippling for an-overborrowed government.

However I really can't know what to make of this without a lot more detail and understanding the baseline -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50325059

It certainly makes more sense to borrow to invest in infrastructure (the state of which is to my mind a massive hidden unmeasured component of national debt) than to 'invest' in tax cuts, that the beneficiaries of which will in many cases invest elsewhere.
 Parliament v People - Zero
>> It certainly makes more sense to borrow to invest in infrastructure (the state of which
>> is to my mind a massive hidden unmeasured component of national debt) than to 'invest'
>> in tax cuts, that the beneficiaries of which will in many cases invest elsewhere.

It does, IF any investment ever took place. It never did in the past with nationalised industry, it was merely ownership for the benefit of those employed within, with little or nothing in the way of investment for the future. The few things that made money were raided for cash.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 7 Nov 19 at 22:27
 Parliament v People - VxFan
>> Blimey, Watson's quit the deputy leadership and is standing down as an MP.

Lazy Vaizey has quit too. Not that many people will actually notice, hence the moniker of his name.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-50314126
 Parliament v People - sooty123
Seems there's quite a few candidates that have quit over the last day or so, a couple of con and one labour over some anti jewish comments.
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> Seems there's quite a few candidates that have quit over the last day or so,
>> a couple of con and one labour over some anti jewish comments.

Nick Conrad has stood down as Conservative candidate in Norfolk over comments about rape victims.
 Parliament v People - sooty123

>> Nick Conrad has stood down as Conservative candidate in Norfolk over comments about rape victims.
>>
>>

Yes I think that's the chap, couldn't remember the name of the labour candidate though.
 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> Yes I think that's the chap, couldn't remember the name of the labour candidate though.

Labour prospective candidate in Clacton has stood down following story that he made a Shylock allusion regarding a Jewish Councillor in his previous political home as a councillor in North London.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-50344324

His assertion in his defence that he didn't know Shylock was a Jew strains credulity. OK, OK I studied Merchant of Venice for O level English but surely everyone knows it's a bit of Shakespeare that relies pretty heavily on antisemitic tropes.

There's also a bit about cross dressing and people sleeping with 'whoever had a ring' which was inexplicably omitted from the WRCC issue versions of the script we used in class. Quite amusing when we were allowed out to see the whole play at Leeds Playhouse and various people diligently following it thought they'd just lost their place.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 8 Nov 19 at 12:35
 Parliament v People - Manatee
I'm afraid I don't like this business of people having to resign because they said the wrong thing. Just as good people can do bad things, they can say something that doesn't quite come out as intended. We can never be certain that is what happened but I think people should have the benefit of the doubt at least once.

Joe Biden has been pulled up for 'shylock' as well.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2014/09/17/biden-shylocks-comment-a-poor-choice-of-words/
 Parliament v People - No FM2R
I entirely agree. But the masses are so emotional these days and the organisations so scared, that it seems to be the thing.
 Parliament v People - Robin O'Reliant
>> I entirely agree. But the masses are so emotional these days and the organisations so
>> scared, that it seems to be the thing.
>>
All of us have innocently used hundreds of phrases in the past that would now be deemed to have "Caused offence". But only to those who are looking to be offended.
 Parliament v People - Zero
Shylock is a perfectly legitimate literary reference to use when describing someone who fits those moral characteristics, its not a legitimate reference as a blanket general characteristic for a group or race of people. As always its about context. And people are always happy to drag it out of context so they can be offended.

 Parliament v People - Bromptonaut
>> All of us have innocently used hundreds of phrases in the past that would now
>> be deemed to have "Caused offence". But only to those who are looking to be
>> offended.

Another perspective says there are hundreds of phrases that cause offence but that people (mostly white men) got away with them in past.

Nowadays the offended are sufficiently empowered that they can call out offenders.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 8 Nov 19 at 22:58
 Parliament v People - smokie
Is there a number for me to call if I have been affected by anything in your post Bromps?

Because on behalf of white men everywhere I take exception to your overt racial and gender stereotyping.

But I'll struggle through the rest of the day trying not to think about it. :-)
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 8 Nov 19 at 23:53
 Parliament v People - Robin O'Reliant
>> >>
>>
>> Another perspective says there are hundreds of phrases that cause offence but that people (mostly
>> white men) got away with them in past.
>>
>>
Members of all races and cultures have said things that are deemed offensive, and white men are far from being the worst in that respect. I've worked with many non white people during my life and attitudes among many of them towards women and gays to give two examples are far from being politically correct.
 Parliament v People - No FM2R
>>that people (mostly white men) got away with them in past.

Not forgetting that it is regarded as trendy and fashaionable to blame white men,most especially if you are one. And equally as untrendy and uncool to go anywhere near an resemblance of the truth and God forbid blame any who are not white men.

>>Nowadays the offended are sufficiently empowered that they can call out offenders.

If the alleged offender is a white man. Otherwise not so much.

And as for this increased habit of sniffing out [aka: pretending to find] perceived offense on behalf of others, that really is sad.
 The General Election thread - sooty123
Just caught up with the news, seems today was a competition to see which party would spend the most. Seems austerity is well and truly over.
 The General Election thread - tyrednemotional
...yes, that austerity thing went well, didn't it...?

Now the Tories are trying to pretend "it was some big boys what done it, and they've run away".

I haven't quite got my mind round which is the worse of the two possible outcomes:

1. The Tories promising to spend all that money, and the promises immediately evaporating and them attempting nothing of the kind if they're elected, or

2. Labour promising to spend all that money, and then attempting to keep their promises if they're elected.....

;-)
 The General Election thread - sooty123
Did it go well are you asking? Depends on your politics I suppose.

I was more thinking along the lines of it being quite a change in message from the parties not that long ago it was all about being responsible finance wise. Now very much a different message they are all repeating.
 The General Election thread - Zero

>> I haven't quite got my mind round which is the worse of the two possible
>> outcomes:
>>
>> 1. The Tories promising to spend all that money, and the promises immediately evaporating and
>> them attempting nothing of the kind if they're elected, or
>>
>> 2. Labour promising to spend all that money, and then attempting to keep their promises
>> if they're elected.....

Yer, If I hadnt had 50 years of experience of it, I would have been quite excited and hopeful about either. Alas however you have summed it up admirably, so I aint.
 The General Election thread - Bobby
Either way, this will be the third general election in four years.

We have had a parliament that has done nothing but argue about Brexit for last 3 years.

So no matter who wins this election, we may still end up with a disfunctional parliament that nothing can get passed. So whoever you vote for, think of it as a very short term vote!
 The General Election thread - Netsur
"Thanks for posting that Netsur. It's informative to see what drives people's thinking in these controversies and the 'return to Zion' bit was something I was not aware of. It sort of helps explain why anti Israel sentiment and allegations of antisemitism get combined. Is it universal in Judaism or one of those things that depends on where one sits on the Orthodox/Reform etc line?"

Bromp..

This is absolutely the essence of Judaism. The 'first coming' of the messiah is intertwined with the return of all Jews to the land of Israel. Whether he comes before or after the return is started or completed is a matter of, let us say disagreement, between ultra orthodox and other groups, but with the exception of a tiny group of nutters who enjoy the same friendships as Jeremy Corbyn, all are supportive of Jews living in Israel now and if Jews in Israel are in danger will do what they seem appropriate to assist. The ultra orthodox prefer that Israel is not run by Jews until the messiah has arrived.

Where I disagree with many of you is that there is the comment that Israel is democracy and therefore must do better. Yes it must but there is more support and succor given to nearby countries without democracy. Go to a left wing rally or event and there always a pro-palestinian stall, badge, flag usually supporting an organisation willing to kill Jews. Why do the same people not give support to the Kurds who are terribly discriminated against, particularly by Turkey.

My Kurdish barber loves Jews and Israel because it is the only regional power to agree with their reasonable demand for an independent state. The Turks want to kill them.

We Jews feel discriminated regarding Israel because we do not want to kill Palestinians but everyone seems to want to kill us.
 The General Election thread - Zero
>
>> Where I disagree with many of you is that there is the comment that Israel
>> is democracy and therefore must do better. Yes it must but there is more support
>> and succor given to nearby countries without democracy.

Utter rubbish, the extremely active and successful lobby in the USA ensures the worlds most powerful state is an ally. iF the state of Israel was more conciliatory and accommodating to the Palestinians (ie buy not annexing their lands, disenfranchising them and building illegal settlements) the rest of the West would be more supportive with less Palestinian support outside. As it is the powers that be in the State of Israel gain more internally by promoting fear and siege mentality.

You will note, my criticisms are of the state, not the religion or the populous within or without.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 9 Nov 19 at 19:41
 The General Election thread - Bromptonaut
I'm less didactic about this than Zero but the presence of well funded and ostensibly articulate pro Jewish/pro Israel lobbies both here and in US is undoubted. The candidate for a Bradford seat who copped a load of trouble for suggested transposing Israel to the State of New York wasn't without a point where money/numbers are concerned.

This is absolutely the essence of Judaism. The 'first coming' of the messiah is intertwined with the return of all Jews to the land of Israel. tends to undermine the bit of definition of antisemitism which refers to greater loyalty to Israel than the home state. And divided loyalties are enough to worry.....

That would bother me a bit but not too much if the result was a Jewish community wanting more of Maggie T.

When the result might be to drive us over the Brexit cliff I'm more than bothered.

FFS, if Corbyn's the PM and we swallow the anti semite thing hook>line>sinker there's a risk for your community but in a democracy it's manageable. Accepting proven liar who models himself on Trump as our PM is another thing altogether.
 The General Election thread - Bromptonaut
Meanwhile Tories who accept accounts of Smeeth, del Piero etc on antisemitism in Labour without question smear and discredit those blowing whistle on their own ethno-religious conflicts:

www.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/09/tory-islamophobia-hancock-accused-of-trying-to-isolate-warsi
 The General Election thread - No FM2R
I flat out do not believe that there is any racism, antisemitism or anything similar in Corbyn. It would make no sense.

Though I can quite believe Corbyn having significant issues with the behaviour of the Israeli state.

It is unfortunate that the two issues are so frequently conflated and that Corbyn does not have the strength and clarity of leadership to be clearer himself as well as enforcing what is acceptable within the party.

I think Corbyn is a crap leader

I cannot imagine someone with politics further from mine and I disagree with him on almost everything.

However, I do not believe he is an evil or bad man, just the wrong man in my opinion. in reality, and I've never even met the man, at least not knowingly, is probably that he is a good man.

However awful Bozo is, that does not make Corbyn better. Though perhaps it makes him less worse for the country in the medium term. Corbyn's F-ups would probably be of a type easier to unpick than Bozo's.
 The General Election thread - No FM2R
I also doubt that there is any rock that could be thrown at Labour that could not also be thrown at the Conservatives. Or vice versa.
 The General Election thread - Bromptonaut
>> I flat out do not believe that there is any racism, antisemitism or anything similar
>> in Corbyn. It would make no sense.

>> I think Corbyn is a crap leader

I agree with both of those.

Corbyn is leader by accident - those who enabled his nomination misunderstood rules had changed and he could actually win rather than sinking without trace at first ballot.

With hindsight he should have said, when May and Cable stood down, he would too citing his own age and need for new blood.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 9 Nov 19 at 22:01
 And another one - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-50344324
The parties will be running out of candidates at this rate.
 And another one (possibly) - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-50347128

I don't remember an election with so many candidates dropping out our being under pressure to. And we aren't even a week in yet.
 And another one (possibly) - Zero
Its because in the days of social media they now have unprecedented access to world wide attention with the corresponding similar scrutiny. If you were kind you could say its because they have not had the training or support to use it correctly, although I prefer to err on the side of blaming sheer stupidity.

Trump won a presidency using Social Media, and too stupid to keep his mouth shut, he is throwing it away on the same media.
 And another one (possibly) - Ambo
How come postings are no longer in chronological order?
 And another one (possibly) - Duncan
>> How come postings are no longer in chronological order?
>>

Don't think they have been for a long time.

They would be in chronological order if posters replied to the last post, but they don't - well, not often.
 And another one (possibly) - No FM2R

>> Don't think they have been for a long time ever.
 And another one (possibly) - Manatee
>> >> How come postings are no longer in chronological order?
>> >>
>>
>> Don't think they have been for a long time.
>>
>> They would be in chronological order if posters replied to the last post, but they
>> don't - well, not often.

The answer to this is the same as it always was, look at the threaded view and it makes sense.
 And another one (possibly) - The Melting Snowman
But how many look at threaded view? My guess is somewhere between very few to none.
It's just a feature of this ancient software, pioneering maybe 15 - 20 years ago but rather less so now. But it's free so mustn't criticise too much.
 And another one (possibly) - No FM2R
>>pioneering maybe 15 - 20 years ago but rather less so now.

Absolutely. There were many things about the original Backroom which were pioneering, not least the software.

It's just that we've all got 20 years more experience now.
 And another one (possibly) - Bromptonaut
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-50347128
>>
>> I don't remember an election with so many candidates dropping out our being under pressure
>> to. And we aren't even a week in yet.

Labour Prospective Parliamentary Candidate (I may use abbreviation PPC in future on these threads) for Liverpool West Derby has stood down after offensive and sexist tweets were revealed. Subjects included Baroness Mone, the founder of the Ultimo underwear brand (accusing her of betraying her working class roots), an unamed Peeress who voted for tax cuts and also Esther McVey. What he said about latter is not disclosed, must look it up!!!.

Seat was formerly that of Steven Twigg and as safe as they come majority of close to 33,000/83% of votes cast. Now need a quick replacement - that'll be an interesting contest.

Family link - The Lad's g/f's family live in the constituency.
 And another one (possibly) - Bromptonaut
Another PPC falls on his sword. Racist and homophobic tweets, this time from a LibDem:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/11/lib-dem-candidate-kevin-mcnamara-quits-over-racist-and-homophobic-tweets
 The General Election thread - No FM2R
www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50377396

It was entirely beyond me why anybody with a brain would pay attention to this clown. Then I read the comments and I realised what passes for a sentient being these days.
 The General Election thread - Zero
>> www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50377396

Absolutely nothing to do with

1/ Collapsing support for his party in tory safe and marginal seats
2/ Inability to garner sufficient candidates who have more than one amoeba cell.
3 Withering away financial support.
 The General Election thread - Bobby
You’ve got to admire Farage, knows the intelligence of his followers very well and uses it to his advantage.

3000 people paid £100 each to be in with a chance of standing as a candidate. Of course the vast majority discovered later that they had no chance of being selected.

And then of course he pulls the plug on all the seats not being contested.

Anywhere else it would be described as a ponzi or pyramid scheme. But yet he still has his deluded, one amoeba cell followers that think he is God.
 Latest Polls - Bromptonaut
Survation:

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-election-poll-survation/conservatives-lead-over-labour-narrows-slightly-survation-poll-idUKKBN1XM1RY
 Latest Polls - Manatee
There has just been a Conservative election broadcast. I am interested in this stuff and wanted to watch it but I got distracted when the unseen interviewer was asking Boris whether he liked Marmite. Gripping stuff. Next time I looked up I was watching the One Show, so I don't think that one will have moved the needle.
 Con broadcast from Tuesday - sherlock47
Con broadcast from Tuesday

i was told to watch it - so I dutifully obeyed SWMBO, at 23.00 on IPlayer last night. I thought I had dropped into a bad dream.

Lowest Common Denominator marketing/sales?

It made Trump look intelligent. Or was it supposed to be a windup?
 Con broadcast from Tuesday - Lygonos
The referendum of 2016 showed politicians there is a huge seam of stupid to be mined after decades of it not voting.
 Con broadcast from Tuesday - Lygonos
>>The referendum of 2016 showed politicians there is a huge seam of stupid to be mined after decades of it not voting.

Or perhaps more accurately, a rich seam of habitual Labour voters willing to switch to Tory as their xenophobia outweighed their greed and envy.
 Con broadcast from Tuesday - sooty123
My my we're a happy camper tonight.
 Con broadcast from Tuesday - God
How's the ole woman coming along doc?
 Con broadcast from Tuesday - Lygonos
Doing well thanks - probably 1 more cycle of crappy chemo to go but all the markers are good so far.

Wouldn't recommend leukaemia as a weight loss programme but it works well...
 The General Election thread - Zero
Labour Hit by Serious Cyber Attack claims Jezzer.


He was going to blame Mossad, but It was actually Keith Vaz deleting his porn stash and browsing history, and then Dianne Abbot mis entered her password multiple times and locked them all out.
 The General Election thread - Kevin
>..and then Dianne Abbot mis entered her password multiple times and locked them all out.

Actually, she was trying to use the online calculator and the server went into temperature shutdown.
 The General Election thread - tyrednemotional
....I heard they were using the system to cost their election promises, and it shut down with an overflow error.....
 The General Election thread - sooty123
www.electionpolling.co.uk/polls/general-election

Latest set of polls, I wonder how close to the actual outcome they'll be.
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